Won't there be a huge delay now before Durkon can cast any spells?

[Olinser]

I was thinking about this earlier. While yes, it is fairly bad that Durkon has already arisen as a vampire, won't there be a minimum 8 hour (and probably MUCH longer) delay before he can cast any cleric spells?

All of his spells were from Thor, who I kind of assume will NOT provide any power to a vampire.

So doesn't that mean there will be a long delay while Durkon finds another deity willing to grant him spells (most likely Nergal)?

Also, is there any kind of level/spell penalty to clerics that switch deities?

[Finwe]

Yes, Durkon will have to wait another 8 hours before gaining new spells, and he will have to get them from a new Deity. But he should not incur any penalty to his spellcasting.

[Emmit Svenson]

Can't cite you chapter and verse, but I always understood that divine spells, once granted, were yours to use as you chose. Your deity might deny you new ones, but you kept the ones you had until you cast them.

[Silva Stormrage]

Can't cite you chapter and verse, but I always understood that divine spells, once granted, were yours to use as you chose. Your deity might deny you new ones, but you kept the ones you had until you cast them.

While I believe this is correct, he doesn't have very many spells remaining to be honest. He might have to rely on melee combat (Which is quite strong now with vampire bonuses) Thor's Might, and Vampire abilities like dominate (Which will have a low dc due to low charisma but a lot of the OOTS have low will saves)

[Stormlock]

Can't cite you chapter and verse, but I always understood that divine spells, once granted, were yours to use as you chose. Your deity might deny you new ones, but you kept the ones you had until you cast them.

I don't think it works that way.


Ex-Clerics

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

This would imply Durkon is effectively a wis 9 cleric (cannot cast spells) until he atones (not friggin likely) or finds a new god and presumably acquires some favour with him. I dunno the rules on this stuff (probably buried in the Complete Cleric book or somesuch) but I certainly wouldn't grant a player full spells equivalent to his previous cleric levels the day he switched over to a new god. I think some loyalty and devotion is in order before you earn the power to break the laws of nature.

[gorocz]

Vampire abilities like dominate (Which will have a low dc due to low charisma but a lot of the OOTS have low will saves)

Not necessarily, he should be getting a +4 to Charisma from the Vampire template (which could even get him a positive modifier) and with him being possibly 4 Cleric levels higher than Malack, he could have similiar HD to him (unless Malack really is a Yuan-Ti or something)

[Chantelune]

I dunno the rules on this stuff (probably buried in the Complete Cleric book or somesuch) but I certainly wouldn't grant a player full spells equivalent to his previous cleric levels the day he switched over to a new god. I think some loyalty and devotion is in order before you earn the power to break the laws of nature.

Plot might override the rules on that one, ore Durkula will be quite "useless" for some time.

A possible way to allow him to regain spells in 8hrs would be him converting to Hel, which would be so delighted to have a cleric at last that she would speed up the process and grant him new spells right away after him meditating.

He might convert to Nergal, but unless Malack has another way to speed up the process, I doubt he would have any reason to get a new cleric that fast.

[MandibleBones]

He might also convert to Tyr, who is LN and shares two domains with Thor (including Durkon's War domain), and is likely to accept a LE cleric (presumably Durkon didn't suddenly shift to CE from LG).

Of course, that raises the question of how LG Durkon was getting spells from CG Thor anyway, and maybe Thor doesn't care about alignment so much as he does valor in battle and devotion to Thor (two things which are unlikely to change for Durkon): if that's the case, maybe Durkon gets to keep spells anyway. After all, this affliction was dealt to him, and he fought it as best he could. I don't know that he's violated Thor's code of conduct yet.

[hamishspence]

I dunno the rules on this stuff (probably buried in the Complete Cleric book or somesuch) but I certainly wouldn't grant a player full spells equivalent to his previous cleric levels the day he switched over to a new god. I think some loyalty and devotion is in order before you earn the power to break the laws of nature.

It's in various Faerun books- and in a 3.0 generic D&D splatbook (Defenders of the Faith). For 3.5, it's in, I think, PHB2 or DMG2.

Generally a little "faith quest" for the new deity is required- but once that's done, full conversion- all previous levels usable.

[Chantelune]

Becoming vampire should only change the good/evil part of the alignement, so no reason for him to no longer be lawfull. His loyalties might just no longer apply to Roy and the others.

[QDI]

This would imply Durkon is effectively a wis 9 cleric (cannot cast spells) until he atones (not friggin likely) or finds a new god and presumably acquires some favour with him.

Why such a low wisdom?

[hamishspence]

Because a Wis 10 cleric can cast spells- 0th level- orisons.

Hence describing them as "effectively a Wis 9 cleric, since they can't cast spells"

Come to think of it- they might not be able to turn or rebuke undead, either- doesn't that also count as a class feature- hence can be lost if deity cuts you off completely?

[Devils_Advocate]

"Vampire clerics lose their ability to turn undead but gain the ability to rebuke undead. This ability does not affect the vampire’s controller or any other vampires that a master controls. A vampire cleric has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)

But note that Monster Manual entries seem to assume that Clerics will be of their respective racial deities, so probably there's a vampire god or demon lord or something with those domains.

So, there are several obvious questions:

1. Are vampire Clerics loyal to this vampire god upon creation by default?
2. Will Vampire Durkon be created loyal to Nergal as Malack's spawn? That would only make sense, really, for is not his master's master is his own master as well? Not too different from when he was living, even. Of course, in that case he followed Thor's high priest because he followed Thor rather than vice versa, but the end result is much the same.
3. Does Vampire Durkon still have any of Living Durkon's prepared spells? Obviously the domain spells are gone, since he doesn't keep his original domains, and he can't cast [Good] spells anymore, but what about the rest?

Personally, I'd rule that he loses all of his spells as soon as he stops being a Cleric of Thor, even if he instantly switches to being a Cleric of another god.

But of course Malack is using an unknown spell anyway, so it can do anything that the plot requires regardless. The specific details of how this all works are by no means constrained by the normal rules, under the circumstances.

And regardless, just being a vampire confers a dozen funky special attacks and/or qualities in addition to considerable bonuses to a bunch of stuff in addition to the various immunities of the undead in general! Pretty dangerous, really, the several weaknesses to fairly mundane stuff aside. The main drawback is the tremendous Level Adjustment: "It is fairly difficult for a vampire cleric to find appropriate challenges." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html)

[hamishspence]

But note that Monster Manual entries seem to assume that Clerics will be of their respective racial deities, so probably there's a vampire god or demon lord or something with those domains.

Libris Mortis and Fiendish Codex 1 don't seem to have beings offering those four exact domains.

In Complete Divine, Maglubiyet (goblins, hobgoblins) and Lolth (drow) both offer those four.

[Silverionmox]

I've always found it bizarre that people consider the god of their cleric something akin to an internet provider: something you ought to be able to change with only minor hassle.

And if that wasn't enough, he's just been killed, you know.

[Devils_Advocate]

But note that Monster Manual entries seem to assume that Clerics will be of their respective racial deities, so probably there's a vampire god or demon lord or something with those domains.
OK, so apparently the god of vampires, Kanchelsis, has different domains (Dragon Magazine #359 p. 121).

I guess that vampires just have domain access as a racial feature like planetars and ghaeles and whatnot. But I don't like domain access as a racial feature, so I'm just gonna pretend that it doesn't work that way. :P


I've always found it bizarre that people consider the god of their cleric something akin to an internet provider: something you ought to be able to change with only minor hassle.
Generally speaking, yeah. But vampirification is kind of a special case. Just being a vampire in the first place means that you're already sorta mainlining a particular flavor of unholy power. At least I assume that that's the basic idea behind the particular rule for vampire Clerics.

[Kish]

I've always found it bizarre that people consider the god of their cleric something akin to an internet provider: something you ought to be able to change with only minor hassle.
The trend since 1ed has been toward making roleplaying events not mechanically weaken the character.

In 1ed and 2ed, the writers expected players to want to have their character, as part of their roleplaying, change alignments/gods and suck up nasty experience penalties for doing so--or, alternatively, they thought that if they didn't stack on loads of penalties everyone would be changing all the time without regard for roleplaying. ("He's casting Unholy Blight? Good thing I just changed alignment to Neutral Evil!") It's hard to tell what caused the rules from observing what they were.

In 3.xed, on the other hand, the writers took pains to make it so that characters who undergo character development/personality change severe enough to change alignment or, in a cleric's case, convert to a different god don't have their characters weakened by the roleplaying choice. (Or, in Durkon's case, not-choice.)

[KillingAScarab]

OK, so apparently the god of vampires, Kanchelsis, has different domains (Dragon Magazine #359 p. 121).

I guess that vampires just have domain access as a racial feature like planetars and ghaeles and whatnot. But I don't like domain access as a racial feature, so I'm just gonna pretend that it doesn't work that way. :PKeep in mind that the rules support clerics who do not serve a deity.
If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.If the limitations listed under the "vampire characters" heading are actually in use, such a cleric would be drawing power from the plane of negative energy directly. Every cleric has some access to the planes of positive or negative energy, but a vampire is animated by negative energy (as is any undead creature). The domains listed are limitations which match such a power source.

However, consider that Malack at least purports he is a priest of Nergal and may even believe that to be the case. I think there's a good chance he actually does receive power from Nergal, thus other vampires might receive power from certain other deities.

[Devils_Advocate]

Keep in mind that the rules support clerics who do not serve a deity.
Well, yeah. Though most of the actual settings disallow that. But I guess that I can kind of buy vamprism itself as a significant enough force in the world to draw divine power from, like Nature or Justice or Magic.


If the limitations listed under the "vampire characters" heading are actually in use, such a cleric would be drawing power from the plane of negative energy directly. Every cleric has some access to the planes of positive or negative energy, but a vampire is animated by negative energy (as is any undead creature). The domains listed are limitations which match such a power source.
But they don't, darn it! Death fits that way better than Trickery! Feh.


However, consider that Malack at least purports he is a priest of Nergal and may even believe that to be the case. I think there's a good chance he actually does receive power from Nergal, thus other vampires might receive power from certain other deities.
Indeed. The question is simply how all of this works re: Vampire Durkon. In addition to a bunch of other questions about how becoming a vampire works. We'll probably find out soon enough, or at least eventually. It looks pretty likely that he's going to stay a vampire for a while.

[ti'esar]

But they don't, darn it! Death fits that way better than Trickery! Feh.

Or Chaos. Where's the love for LE vampires? (Apart from this strip, I guess).

[Winter]

Keep in mind that the rules support clerics who do not serve a deity.If the limitations listed under the "vampire characters" heading are actually in use, such a cleric would be drawing power from the plane of negative energy directly. Every cleric has some access to the planes of positive or negative energy, but a vampire is animated by negative energy (as is any undead creature). The domains listed are limitations which match such a power source.

We do not know if Clerics work in OotS more like in the FR, which a much greater tie to the gods than the metaphysical concepts that in Core. Given the comic we saw and the high weight of "Plot", I estimate it is the former.

Switching your god is no easy thing. In some ways, this is also what the "Atonement" spell is for - it (re-)aligns you, your alignment, and your god (old or new).
Note I said "In some ways". It does not have to work this way but a cleric switching faith having some sort of Official Initiation into that faith does not seem to be a stupid idea to me (and the rule-mechanic of that is then the Atonement). In all cases, it's probably not a nilly-willy decision (even if you became a vampire).

About what Kish said: I think the 3.x just removed the "force" on the DM and player to do it with penalties. It leaves the RPG requirements open for every campaign/DM how they want to handle it from a story-perspective. The lack of mechanical punishments in Core is no indicator a) there cannot be mechanical punishments/repercussions and b) on what is required in terms to character, story or roleplay.
If you add the Forgotten Realms to the mix "stuff with gods" gets a bit more stricter than Core as well. So we have a precedence. I bet Rich is going for "the interesting story", which very probably means Durkon cannot just switch to Hel, stay with Thor without any issues/questions, or switch to "Who needs Gods when you have access to Negative Energy".