Rumor has it that you can build any concept in 3.5?

[rubycona]

I was wondering if you guys could help me fashion my BBEG. I run PF, but I'm good with importing 3.5 stuff.

In a nutshell, he's supposed to be wizardly, but not as good at being a wizard as actual wizards. Definitely arcane instead of divine, and a sword wielder besides.

He'll be epic level, and should be able to more or less almost keep up, magically, with a wizard of equal level.

Something like Magus is kind of good... except, it lacks the diversity of the spellbook. Arcane trickster? Pretty solid, except he's not the sneaky type. Really not a rogue. Arcane archer? Not an archer. Bard? Bard is pretty good, except it's too supportive. He's way too self centered to develop skills to make the people around him better. Sorcerer? Part of the point was that he was supposed to be a talentless hack, who by sheer determination figured out how to command the structure of reality. The sheer determination matches the charisma bit, but... PF sorcs are kind of bloodline based. Innately talented.

Obviously, as DM, I can handwave stuff, but I try to avoid that. And I don't know the best way to manifest the concept. He's supposed to be trying his whole life to keep up with his pure wizard rival, and always falling behind magically, but in the process of his fight for power, has effectively created his own nation.

Any insights you guys might have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[ArcturusV]

Sounds like a typical Old School Elf.

Pick up some levels in Fighter, pick up some levels in Wizard. Maybe PrC into Eldritch Knight or one of the various Melee/Mage PrCs out there.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

How optimized is your group? There are a lot of options here at various levels of power; at the low end you could go Sorcerer 6 / Blackguard 4 / Eldritch Knight 10 as your leadin to epic. If you don't like the Bloodline aspect of the PF sorcerer, go with the 3.5 version and remember that fluff is mutable.

[rubycona]

Sounds like a typical Old School Elf.

Pick up some levels in Fighter, pick up some levels in Wizard. Maybe PrC into Eldritch Knight or one of the various Melee/Mage PrCs out there.

I completely forgot about the Eldritch Knight, somehow. Heh. I'm not sure how that happened... but it seems very promising. :D

[Crasical]

I wouldn't say you can build any concept in 3.5. I haven't really hit on any way to make a version of my Tempest fighter from 4e in 3.5 that satisfies me, anyway.

[Urpriest]

I completely forgot about the Eldritch Knight, somehow. Heh. I'm not sure how that happened... but it seems very promising. :D

If you simply want a caster who's a bit behind on casting but good with a sword, there are lots of ways to do that, especially with access to 3.5 content. Google the word Gish and you'll find dozens of threads about it.

Now, if you want to make the guy's ineptitude actually mechanically relevant this becomes much more challenging...one of the hard things to do in 3.5/PF is make a character who is bad at what they do and still has to be taken seriously.

Edit:

I wouldn't say you can build any concept in 3.5. I haven't really hit on any way to make a version of my Tempest fighter from 4e in 3.5 that satisfies me, anyway.

Warblade has a lot of TWF and mobility support, and can conceivably poach proto-marking from the Crusader with Martial Study/Stance and/or multiclassing.

[Crasical]

Warblade has a lot of TWF and mobility support, and can conceivably poach proto-marking from the Crusader with Martial Study/Stance and/or multiclassing.

The problem is that I decided a better defense was more important than the few extra points of damage I would get from wearing light armor, so that Fighter was still wearing plate despite dual-wielding.

3.5 does not like heavy armor and TWF on the same character.

[Blueiji]

3.5 does not like heavy armor and TWF on the same character.

You could use Mithral Fullplate modified with some of the enchantments that increase an armor's maximum dexterity bonus and decrease the skill check penalty.

[Slipperychicken]

Obviously, as DM, I can handwave stuff, but I try to avoid that. And I don't know the best way to manifest the concept. He's supposed to be trying his whole life to keep up with his pure wizard rival, and always falling behind magically, but in the process of his fight for power, has effectively created his own nation.

Simply being a lower-level Wizard than his rival? Commoner2/WizardX?

[DMVerdandi]

Sounds like a spell to power erudite (Everything does to me. It, cleric, and spirit shaman are just my favorite clases :smallredface:).

Not exactly a wizard, because maybe he found a different method to casting, and that is through straight up psionic hacking of magic. Instead of truly following the rules of magic, he just bogards his way through.

For physical might, just create a new power.
Psychic might.
Make it real basic.

Level 3, Bab= spellcaster level, and ac bonus = 1/4 levels.
Augment increases duration in hours every point of PP.


You have 11 Unique powers (We are going with the low powered one here for fairness), and can keep casting after you manifest them.

Have one damage power like energy ray, psychic might, and keep the rest open for whatever pops off.

[nedz]

Rather than making him a caster you could just give him very high UMD and then use wands/staffs/scrolls etc.

If he's running his own kingdom then he should not be sort of people to enchant things for him.

[W3bDragon]

Now, if you want to make the guy's ineptitude actually mechanically relevant this becomes much more challenging...one of the hard things to do in 3.5/PF is make a character who is bad at what they do and still has to be taken seriously.

Indeed. Its possible to build him in PF as an 8th level Adept, 1st level warrior or fighter, then into Eldritch Knight. He'll be a decent gish, hitting 16 bab at 20th, but for his level he'll be hopelessly behind in spells, needing to reach 18th level before he gets 5th level spells.

[A_S]

If the spellbook is all that's stopping you from using Magus, you could just port in the Arcane Preparation feat from PGtF. It's a little unclear from the feat whether it's supposed to require a spellbook (does "prepare an arcane spell ahead of time just as a wizard does" mean "from a spellbook?"), but it's an easy houserule to make it work that way if it doesn't already.

You could also port in Factotum. It's designed to focus more on being good at a little bit of everything, but built and played right, it could also be a decent representation of somebody who can do a little bit of everything, but isn't terribly good at any of it (without being mechanically crap, which would make for unsatisfying encounters). Just drop/replace/don't use Opportunistic Piety if the divine flavor bugs you.

[Corlindale]

In a more obscure vein, you could also make him a Binder. Frustrated at his lack of arcane power, he discovered the means to bind vestiges and now secretly relies on the Karsus vestige and magical items (like staves) for all his "magic".

[ZamielVanWeber]

Battle Sorcerer trades off some spells per day and known for a bigger hit die, BAB, and armor proficiency. Seems like it could be right up you alley.

[rubycona]

Thanks everyone for your insights! Nothing feels "perfect," but I'm not likely to get "perfect" :P So, I'll be reading into a lot of these classes. Eldritch Knight seems the most promising thus far. I'm kind of thinking, maybe an eldritch knight battle sorcerer. But there's some suggestions that I know nothing about, like the Binder idea, that I'll want to look into :)

Thanks again! This has been really helpful.

[Menzath]

From the intial post sounds like duskblade with better spell list/selection.
Maybe instead of fighter BaB use rogue BaB, but up spell selection, and can go to 7th level spells instead of 5th.

That sounds more inline with what you want. Not perfect, but an Idea.

[Flickerdart]

Why not Bard? Trade away the singing for some ACFs (Inspire Awe is perfect for a BBEG!) and you're golden.

[rubycona]

Why not Bard? Trade away the singing for some ACFs (Inspire Awe is perfect for a BBEG!) and you're golden.

Bard has some potential.

I'm presently thinking a Maestro sorcerer (pathfinder, perform: oration), as a battle sorcerer, into an eldritch knight. Little bit behind on his spellcasting, good stabbing, and the Maestro bloodline suits his political bent. It's easy to switch the music fluff of the Maestro to a poetic intensity in speech, but none of the mechanical bits are musical. Still, a little too good in magic, but I could just throw in a few levels of fighter, maybe.

[Crasical]

You could use Mithral Fullplate modified with some of the enchantments that increase an armor's maximum dexterity bonus and decrease the skill check penalty.

+1 Nimbleness Mithral Fullplate costs 14500 gold, though. You need to be starting at 7th level or above to afford that.

[Urpriest]

+1 Nimbleness Mithral Fullplate costs 14500 gold, though. You need to be starting at 7th level or above to afford that.

You only need 13 Dex for TWF. By the time you get Improved TWF and the like and have your Dex boosted enough to use them you'll be able to afford the armor.

[Crasical]

You only need 13 Dex for TWF. By the time you get Improved TWF and the like and have your Dex boosted enough to use them you'll be able to afford the armor.

Good point.

[Randomguy]

Take a look at Abjurant Champion in Complete Mage, and swiftblade here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)

Something like Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 or
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5 if you don't like the feel of swiftblade would, at level 20, put him only 2 or 3 caster levels behind a wizard his level and 3 points of BAB behind a fighter.

At epic levels, continuing into swiftblade or EK or even fighter would put him further behind wizards of his own level, but not by a lot, since they'd both have 9th level spells.

There's also the terrible Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) PrC which would fit well if he was a duelist type fighter and which would suck less if taken after level 20, on top of one of the above builds, since there's no BAB post epic and you don't want him to be as good at casting anyway.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You only need 13 Dex for TWF. By the time you get Improved TWF and the like and have your Dex boosted enough to use them you'll be able to afford the armor.

15 Dex.

Anyway, Magus.

[Twilightwyrm]

Good point.

Incidentally, has you considered the Champion of Corellon Larethian? (From races of the wild) It requires you be an Elf of Half-Elf, but it lets you add your Dex to damage (good for a TWF, as this means you now actually have a reason to focus on Dex, both for qualifying for higher level TWF feats, as well as adding full Dex to both weapon's damage), as well as netting you bonus feats, and perhaps most in line with what you are looking for, offsetting both the check penalty and raising the maximum Dex bonus of your armor, making the maximum Dex bonus +6 without any armor enchantments by the end of the class. Would be a bit difficult to combine effectively with Warblade, as you wouldn't end up getting as high level maneuvers, but if those were only a minor focus for you anyways, there is little to be lost.

[Flickerdart]

Bard has some potential.

I'm presently thinking a Maestro sorcerer (pathfinder, perform: oration), as a battle sorcerer, into an eldritch knight. Little bit behind on his spellcasting, good stabbing, and the Maestro bloodline suits his political bent. It's easy to switch the music fluff of the Maestro to a poetic intensity in speech, but none of the mechanical bits are musical. Still, a little too good in magic, but I could just throw in a few levels of fighter, maybe.
Paladin (of Slaughter) dip is nice: there are a few things Bardadins get, and the CHA to saves is tasty.

[Vaz]

I wouldn't say you can build any concept in 3.5. I haven't really hit on any way to make a version of my Tempest fighter from 4e in 3.5 that satisfies me, anyway.

Sounds like a challenge. Care to make a thread detailing what your Tempest Fighter does? I'm sure that the optimizers would love to have a go, and i am in a book delving mood tonigbt.

Are there any Psionic characters in your party? I am currently starting a game with Psionics is different (with the BBEG as an StP Erudite, getting every arcane spell as a Power), and it was quite fun when we saw our Powers go through SR easier. It might surprise the party a huge amount to discover that the BBEG Wizard is Pionic and is able to get through their SR.

Alternatively, wu jen could lead to some interesting use of taboos to create a crazy insane guy. Can only wear Yellow and Pink on a tuesday, or whatever. Plus, Body Outsode Body, Polymorph and Giant Size (along with Archmage SLA wish) to make yourself the Genie gets awesome points.

If you want to make a Gish BBEG:

Wu Jen 3/Archivist 3/Geomancer 10/Incantatrix 3/Archmage 1

If you use Early Entry tricks for wu jen, any extra classes (advise Archmage 3, putting all slots in SLA Miracle) should progress Wu Jenidsted Con bonus
This isn't Dual 9ths like usual Theurge builds (because it is not a Theurge). It is the ability to cast Every Single spell in the game as if it was on the Wu Jen spell list, at its earliest possible availability, but also as if it was Divine.

It can use Miracle SLA to make clones with Body Outside Body, who can then use the SLA as well. If he POA's into a Pit Fiend or Sarrukh (Pit Fiend for Awesome), he can with a bit of work, get 44 Int for 3 bonus spells putting him equal to a Wu Je. 9th for spell slots per day. You can use the Clones to Dark Chaos Shuffle trick, every single spell has every possible metamagic applied to it, including persist. Miracle can theoretically replicate Psionic Powers.

Yeah it breaks the game, especially when you begin play with around 700 24 hour temporary HP, on top of your Persisted Con boni, and can either go into a Chain Build Tripper, Bull Rusker. It only doesn't match Pun Pun because you cannot get Class Abilities, and it requires ECL 20.

[Answerer]

Well, 3.x definitely cannot do the concept of a character who eschews magic entirely, at least not past like level 4.

[A_S]

Well, 3.x definitely cannot do the concept of a character who eschews magic entirely, at least not past like level 4.

I mean, you can do it (VoP Warblade), you'll just suck. That seems more like a problem of system balance than flexibility, to me.

[Gavinfoxx]

Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Human Paragon 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8 is a pretty standard Gish build. Try that?

[Fable Wright]

Well, 3.x definitely cannot do the concept of a character who eschews magic entirely, at least not past like level 4.

It's entirely possible to do a mundane-only character far, far into E6, which is still technically 3.x, and past level 4. Alchemical items remain relevant at all times, Crusaders can heal themselves entirely without magic... 20th level 3.x eschewing all magic is a harder trick, but it can be done. You would fail trying to do almost anything, but it could be done.

[Xzeno]

Arcane swordsage would allow you to keep up with a wizard in terms of spellcasting, but give the weakness of a more limited selection of spells, and be inferior to the wizard. It also fulfills the sword using requirement.

[3WhiteFox3]

Well, 3.x definitely cannot do the concept of a character who eschews magic entirely, at least not past like level 4.

What about a character who only uses Psionics? That's not magic. :smallwink:

[Crasical]

Sounds like a challenge.

Okay.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14837685

[Medic!]

If you've got access to Tome of Battle, take a few minutes to check out the Jade Phoenix Mage PrC...it's a little bit of Arcane, a little bit of Martial Maneuvers, and as a BBEG, having the fight just about over and going SURPRISE *poof* and coming back a few seconds later is just....well damnit it's just priceless.

[Mishkov]

So I have a few ideas. My first is simply--did you consider Duskblade 20 or Duskblade 13/(bard 1/sublime cord 10?).

Duskblade 20 you'd get a full sword swinging magic user channeling magic into attacks. You would be hopelessly far behind in comparison to the wizard 20 builds.

Dusk 13/bard/sublime would get you some spells but limited numbers.

Dusk 3/Wizard x/flavor prestige or something broken like incantrix would work. You'd get channeling into a single melee attack and wizard spells at -3 what your pure caster colleagues are doing.

A more amusing character is angrier. Do something like bard 4/Barb1/Rage Mage 6/Sublime Chord 1/Rage Mage 8/Chord 2/Abjurant Champ 5 then EK(?).

Did you ever consider as the DM just making him a gestalt character? Like Wizard 20/Fighter 20?

[Vaz]

If you've got access to Tome of Battle, take a few minutes to check out the Jade Phoenix Mage PrC...it's a little bit of Arcane, a little bit of Martial Maneuvers, and as a BBEG, having the fight just about over and going SURPRISE *poof* and coming back a few seconds later is just....well damnit it's just priceless.

Try on a Wu Jen/Incantatrix/Archmage /Initiator/JPA 10with Persisted Body Outside Body Clones with Transcend Mortality as an SLA Persisted.

Humongous Stats, Clones voluntarily combust near death, then reappear after nuking the party. and your BBEG is free to do whatever.

By the way, these clones last for 48 hours with stats in the mid 20's and DR epic.

After a few such encounters, throw a few Illusions of the BBEG (from his Shadowcraft Gnome Henchman, boris, naturally)

[Dark Kerman]

Well, 3.x definitely cannot do the concept of a character who eschews magic entirely, at least not past like level 4.

What about the Forsaker PrC? Combined with something like Barbarian.

[Gavinfoxx]

What about the Forsaker PrC? Combined with something like Barbarian.

It cannot create a character that is both high level and that is effective at doing anything, given the assumptions of enemies and things high level characters are supposed to do inherent in the system.

[*.*.*.*]

3.X really doesn't do 'sniper' well without magic. By sniper, I mean one really powerful shot with a bow.

Inb4 I'm proven wrong.

[nedz]

Hulking Hurler and the Moon.

The one tricky concept is skill-monkey/heal bot — it is possible, but it's quite hard.

[Flickerdart]

3.X really doesn't do 'sniper' well without magic. By sniper, I mean one really powerful shot with a bow.

Inb4 I'm proven wrong.
It does it fairly decently - Peerless Archer from Silver Marches can power attack with a bow. Add a nice composite greatbow with a good Strength score, take Improved Critical, and fire away. A couple of things from ToB boost your damage, so there's that.

At level 1, your bow (assuming you have the money to afford a good STR rating) can hit for 1d10+8 damage (18 STR, Orc Barbarian), which is more than enough to one-shot most warriors provided that you can hit. Critical hits, which model headshots and the like, deal around 40 damage, which pretty well handles all but the toughest people up to level 5, at which point you're leaving the realm of the realistic and wanting to not use magic or magic-analogues when fighting super-enemies is just going to get you killed.

[The Dark Fiddler]

What about a character who only uses Psionics? That's not magic. :smallwink:

Transparency says otherwise.