PDA

View Full Version : In game investments



Sinpoder
2013-03-05, 03:09 AM
Currently in a dnd campaign my fighter is running a town and has some serious gold to spend, which at this point he has all the gear he will ever need and he wants to invest it in the town. Give me an idea on how I am going to spend over 1million gold.....

ArcturusV
2013-03-05, 03:14 AM
Well, defense against preditation is the first thing that comes to mind. Sure, if you piss off a high level spellcaster, there's basically nothing you can do. But this doesn't mean you should neglect defenses that can deter other, perfectly mundane threats.

A good wall to keep the local Mongolians/Goblin/Orc Hordes out. Always a good idea. Building some public works like a large public cistern system for holding extra water, in case of emergency, always good. Investing in education for the town. Go hire sages to teach kids, build a library, etc.

Also economic development, always important. Use some of your money to support local craftsmen and artisans. Get them shops and up and working. Help people form trade caravans, etc.

You start making improvements like that you go from running a little dirtball village into a cultural center of the world.

Berenger
2013-03-05, 03:15 AM
Temple, orphanage, school, hospital, militia, walls & towers, town privileges...?

Sinpoder
2013-03-05, 03:20 AM
We have walls that are 50ft high with an outer layer of iron. We currently have about 50 or so miners mining gem stone in the mine that we have set up. We have gem cutters that cut the gems so we can sell them for more which allows us to keep our town people from paying taxes.

I will build those schools and get to work on that..... Literally i have a 5 million gold budget so I could most likely get it done if need be. I just wish to know WHAT needs done...

ArcturusV
2013-03-05, 03:36 AM
Well, the thing is, Mines don't last forever. Just look at the American west, littered with towns that basically died after their mines were fully stripped out. So you want to trade your quick cash: Mine, for long term plans. What form the long term plan takes is often setting specific. The standards that are kind of easy to do and non-setting specific would be things like "Center of all knowledge". Building world famous libraries and such is always a good investment. It's high start up cost, but easy to reap benefits due to visiting scholars, students, etc. With the added bonus that once you ARE a "Center of Learning" there is minimal cost you need to feed into it. Most people are dying to get their works into your great libraries, students who study there file their papers and theories in the library automatically, etc.

Some other things can be very setting specific. For example if you basically hire a personal engineer who designs the first Railroad system and steam engines? You can make sure that every track that ever gets laid down (At least at first) all goes back to your city. Your city just became the center of all trade in the region.

Of course there is the more typical fantasy fare of using your short term wealth from the mine to raise an army and take over everything nearby, thus expanding your empire and securing your station even after the mine is exhausted by having more resources.

The Grue
2013-03-05, 03:44 AM
Maybe talk to your fighter, let him know you're in a little over your head here, and maybe suggest he might get more enjoyment out of SimCity?

Seleborn
2013-03-05, 06:25 AM
How about finding ways to attract lower level adventuring parties to your city? Perhaps you could start a guild and hand out quests to them, and they are always handy to have in a fight.

Or building a wizards college/tower to attract powerful magic users to the city. Build a lava moat. Build a floating "upper" city. Buy some lighting cannons to defend the walls.

Friv
2013-03-05, 10:38 AM
Maybe talk to your fighter, let him know you're in a little over your head here, and maybe suggest he might get more enjoyment out of SimCity?

I think that the fighter in question is the OP's character, not the OP's player.


My suggestion - 5 million gold sounds like a lot, but it's actually not. Most major cities in the modern world have operating budgets quite a lot larger than that <i>per year</i>. So you're going to want to focus on some basic amenities and things that will help the town to develop on its own. Schools are definitely a good choice; getting a hold of a good teaching staff alone is likely to be a pricey endeavor.

How many people are in this town, and who does it owe fealty to? Also, how high-magic is the setting? If you try to get fancy magic items built, is your DM going to start crying?

Xeratos
2013-03-05, 11:07 AM
With a budget that big, my suggestion: become the merchant capital of the world. Hire wizards, invest in a network of permanent portals with your town as the hub. Every portal leads to your town, so anyone wanting to go anywhere quickly goes through portal A, lands in your space, then goes through portal B to wherever he wants to go. For a price of course. Merchants and adventurers looking for quick and easy transport make you rich(er).

Of course, with such high traffic, your town needs accommodations for those merchants and travelers. Places for them to repair broken vehicles, wineries and burlesque entertainment for nobles, guards and soldiers so that they feel safe transporting their cargo through your network, and so on.

You'll naturally need a staff of wizards to upkeep your investment, as well as skim off magical treasures adventurers using your system don't want (and they're usually ever so willing to sell them at less than market price), and so on.

It would be a huge initial start up investment, but with the possibility of big returns if you can get enough people using it.

Frozen_Feet
2013-03-05, 11:18 AM
Million gold pieces is easily spent if you found a fleet of few ships (provided it's a port town).

Also, keep in mind you can't just spend it all and be done with it. Most things will keep costing money after beign build. Remember to take that into account. It will suck building your fleet, and the realize you only have enough money to pay your humongous amount of crew members for a couple of weeks. :smallwink:

elliott20
2013-03-05, 11:45 AM
I'm confused, are you asking for a system to simulate a town management in game or are you just asking for general things that you feel like getting him to spend it on? How much information have you already established about the place?

The easiest way to do it is to actually ask HIM what he's interested in spending. Seriously, if you have a huge amount of info already set up that you can use, fine it gets trickier. But if not, just ask him what he wants to change. The key here is that you're basically giving influence of the setting over to him in a minor way through this, so actually ask him.

i.e. he wants to make MORE money with it? Easy, get him to spend an amount that he wants, figure out the risk level and average return. Every time it's time to figure out the income, just roll a d100, 76-100, you earn extra, 75-26 earns you average, and 25-00 you earn less.

if he wants to just improve the lives of the people around him, just let him spend the money describe to him how things will/might change.

If he wants to actually RUN something, then you need a full blown system for it.

Friv
2013-03-05, 12:00 PM
With a budget that big, my suggestion: become the merchant capital of the world. Hire wizards, invest in a network of permanent portals with your town as the hub. Every portal leads to your town, so anyone wanting to go anywhere quickly goes through portal A, lands in your space, then goes through portal B to wherever he wants to go. For a price of course. Merchants and adventurers looking for quick and easy transport make you rich(er).

Of course, with such high traffic, your town needs accommodations for those merchants and travelers. Places for them to repair broken vehicles, wineries and burlesque entertainment for nobles, guards and soldiers so that they feel safe transporting their cargo through your network, and so on.

You'll naturally need a staff of wizards to upkeep your investment, as well as skim off magical treasures adventurers using your system don't want (and they're usually ever so willing to sell them at less than market price), and so on.

It would be a huge initial start up investment, but with the possibility of big returns if you can get enough people using it.

That is... going to be harder than it sounds.

There are two ways to build teleportation portals - with high-level wizards, and with very high-level wizards. The former requires access to several Level 13+ wizards who are willing to spend 7,000 XP per two-way portal, and give up a year of their lives doing so. The latter requires access to at least one Level 17+ wizard who is willing to spend 5,000 XP per two-way portal. Keep in mind that, if the wizard is Level 17, setting up a maximum of four of these two-way portals will make him not Level 17 anymore.

Also keep in mind that powerful wizards are the people in the world least likely to accept money as a substitute for lost power, because they have ways to use that power to get money.


The easiest way to do it is to actually ask HIM what he's interested in spending. Seriously, if you have a huge amount of info already set up that you can use, fine it gets trickier. But if not, just ask him what he wants to change. The key here is that you're basically giving influence of the setting over to him in a minor way through this, so actually ask him.

Once again, the OP is the player, not the GM.

Xeratos
2013-03-05, 12:16 PM
That is... going to be harder than it sounds.

There are two ways to build teleportation portals - with high-level wizards, and with very high-level wizards. The former requires access to several Level 13+ wizards who are willing to spend 7,000 XP per two-way portal, and give up a year of their lives doing so. The latter requires access to at least one Level 17+ wizard who is willing to spend 5,000 XP per two-way portal. Keep in mind that, if the wizard is Level 17, setting up a maximum of four of these two-way portals will make him not Level 17 anymore.

Also keep in mind that powerful wizards are the people in the world least likely to accept money as a substitute for lost power, because they have ways to use that power to get money.



Once again, the OP is the player, not the GM.

Pfft, details. I don't know if this guy's DM is going to care of a couple of powerful NPC wizards go down a level, and even if he does, great plot hook for a quest: "I will begin construction on your portals, but in exchange, you have to venture into the lair of Stan McEvilWizard and steal the Book of Really Awesome Spells I Don't Already Know For Some Reason from him."

Plus, play it as an investment. "You build my portals for me, we'll use the income to establish some great center of arcane knowledge with you at its head. You could literally have dozens of other wizards coming here to study under you, share knowledge and resources, and become a center of magical might such as the world has never seen. Did I mention you'd be in charge of it?"

All I'm saying is it's a viable option. The OP is probably going to have to discuss it with his DM, no matter what he decides to spend the money on anyway, so he can always throw it out as an idea. Even if the DM doesn't green light it for this particular scenario, I still think it's a cool enough concept to be worth using somewhere.

Edit: As a sidenote, I've always personally felt that XP costs in spells were more to keep players from using them than because they should actually cost XP. In my experience, players who are all "do-it-yourself" on everything tend to innately shy away from losing precious XP, and possibly levels, and hire out NPCs to shoulder those costs for them, thus looping back to where this conversation started: hiring wizards to build your portal network.

Moriwen
2013-03-05, 12:28 PM
Transportation is everything. If you can make your town a center of trade, it will prosper.

That means really good roads (think Romans). That means a nice port and a fleet, if that's an option. And it means any less mundane transportation--portals, as others were saying. Or some sort of service where riders can swap out tired horses for fresh ones. Good inns for travellers. A big marketplace with regular gatherings. This sort of thing will last long after the mines are exhausted, because hey, we have the bazaar in Yourtown every year, why would we change it?

Friv
2013-03-05, 01:42 PM
Edit: As a sidenote, I've always personally felt that XP costs in spells were more to keep players from using them than because they should actually cost XP. In my experience, players who are all "do-it-yourself" on everything tend to innately shy away from losing precious XP, and possibly levels, and hire out NPCs to shoulder those costs for them, thus looping back to where this conversation started: hiring wizards to build your portal network.
That's actually quite interesting, because I've always seen it as the opposite - that XP costs are there to ensure that only PCs are designing these things over the course of a typical game. NPCs aren't rushing around trying to get things done, so they aren't willing to lose parts of themselves for someone else's benefit except in exceptional situations. (Less true for minor magic items, mind you; losing twenty XP is not so bad. I tend to apply the >3000 GP = No rule from the spellcasting section of the equipment rules across the board for magic mart purposes.)

Xeratos
2013-03-05, 01:57 PM
Maybe it's just the people I game with then. Not a one of them is willing to take a significant hit to their precious XP total. They'll blow the gold on an NPC every single time.

ArcturusV
2013-03-05, 02:11 PM
Probably. Though it's also a logical thing. I mean in most DnDesque worlds, Adventuring is a fringe thing that supposedly almost no one does. You have something like only 1% of the various Fighters, Wizards, etc, actually "Adventure". It's higher for some classes like Clerics and Paladins, due to their fluffery (Paladins are all holy warriors driven towards Questing, and Clerics are divine agents, the day in, day out stuff isn't handled by Clerics, it's handled by 'mere' priests). So to a Wizard who doesn't "Adventure", like pretty much any NPC wizard you can hire, that XP you're asking them to spend represents YEARS of learning and study. To adventurers it represents a month, maybe, of killing things and taking their stuff.

Thus why in most settings NPCs are loathe to spend high XP totals. A few scrolls clocking in at anywhere from 1-10 XP? Sure. Might represent the cumulative efforts of a few months of study and training, etc. Painful, but not killer.

For players, it's just a much easier pill to swallow. Unless they make a hardcore habit of burning XP and they suddenly realize their level 5 Wizard is on a quest with level 8 teammates fighting challenges that are starting to get beyond his threshold. But to have a disparity like that usually means industrial level Magic Item making.

The Grue
2013-03-05, 04:08 PM
My suggestion - 5 million gold sounds like a lot, but it's actually not. Most major cities in the modern world have operating budgets quite a lot larger than that <i>per year</i>.

You're taking into account the difference in scale between real-world dollars/pounds/euros and Gold Pieces right? I remind you that 50gp is equivalent to a one-pound block of gold. As of the time of this writing one pound of gold in the Real World is worth $25,202.08 USD.

ArcturusV
2013-03-05, 04:17 PM
Even if that wasn't a good basis, you can draw parallels among obviously known quantities. Like say a Tent, PHB, listed at 10 GP. A Tent that I buy at say, REI could be running me 60 bucks. So it suggests an exchange rate around 1 GP to 6 dollars.

Or what about clothing? A "Traveler's Outfit" in book is 1 gp, getting the equivalent in real life would probably be about 20 bucks (At least) for shoes. Then about 20 bucks or more for the various other tidbits. So 1 gp to 40 dollar exchange rate.

Or basically to stay at a "Good" inn (Call it about 3 stars) is 2 gp, which would be about 60 dollars. So there's a 1 to 30 rate. A "1/2 chunk of meat" is listed at 3 sp, and I could go down to the grocery store right now and get it for about 4 dollars. So a 7 to 1 rate.

It doesn't QUITE equate.

Though since he's talking about a town where his primary workforce is 50 people, you're better off looking at the finances of say, Woodland, Washington compared to Seattle, Washington. And the former has a budget measured more in tens of thousands to just maintain than millions. Which even at the better exchange rates means something like 10,000 GP to maintain for a year rather than millions.

If we were being logical. But when you have people that can literally wave their hands and create matter out of nothing, economics get pear shaped.

Sinpoder
2013-03-05, 05:01 PM
Alright, now that I am on my computer I can type out something that makes some level of sense. This is also a ADnD game. This is also high magic.

My fighter, me, is currently in a town that is set up on the side of a mountain, which on the other side of the mountain and acouple miles east is a druids sacred grove, so I plan on leaving them alone if I can help it. We currently have a group of Ogres, who put on a helm of opposite alignment and turned LG who are decked out with magic to allow them to dig out our mines for us. They do the work of 50 men for ONE ogre, and we have 5 if I remember correctly.

That is not including the small zombie army we have in the basement of our main cleric. At the end of the day I am going to do several things, which we have game tonight, in which time I have TWO YEARS to RP with him. I am going to get a series of schools going, and I can assume I can find some teachers in that time, more so when I can throw them acouple hundred gold pieces to teach, which is more then they make in their entire life most of the time.

My city also has indoor pumping, though a basic water system with a decanter of endless water on the end. We also live in apartment style houses, so only one or two decanters per apartment should work. In our city we can currently store...1700+ families (assuming that most families have about 5-6 members in their family) and that is only half of the city, the other half we are putting towards the hospitals and merchants and magic schools and normal schools. This does not include the farmers that I have out in the surrounding areas.

The Grue
2013-03-05, 05:10 PM
Even if that wasn't a good basis, you can draw parallels among obviously known quantities. Like say a Tent, PHB, listed at 10 GP. A Tent that I buy at say, REI could be running me 60 bucks. So it suggests an exchange rate around 1 GP to 6 dollars.

Or what about clothing? A "Traveler's Outfit" in book is 1 gp, getting the equivalent in real life would probably be about 20 bucks (At least) for shoes. Then about 20 bucks or more for the various other tidbits. So 1 gp to 40 dollar exchange rate.

Or basically to stay at a "Good" inn (Call it about 3 stars) is 2 gp, which would be about 60 dollars. So there's a 1 to 30 rate. A "1/2 chunk of meat" is listed at 3 sp, and I could go down to the grocery store right now and get it for about 4 dollars. So a 7 to 1 rate.

It doesn't QUITE equate.

Though since he's talking about a town where his primary workforce is 50 people, you're better off looking at the finances of say, Woodland, Washington compared to Seattle, Washington. And the former has a budget measured more in tens of thousands to just maintain than millions. Which even at the better exchange rates means something like 10,000 GP to maintain for a year rather than millions.

If we were being logical. But when you have people that can literally wave their hands and create matter out of nothing, economics get pear shaped.

You know, "The economics of D&D" would itself be a pretty interesting discussion thread I think.

elliott20
2013-03-05, 07:05 PM
You know, "The economics of D&D" would itself be a pretty interesting discussion thread I think.
That discussion pops up here every so often. The most immediate example that comes to mind is the Tippyverse, which talks about how an economy can be ran by basically abusing trap mechanics. (Seriously, it's a work of art that thing)

However, D&D 3.5 RAW is pretty terrible for any kind of economic measurement, and here are the basic reasons:

1. prices are set in game
2. wages are set in game
3. wages is directly related to skill level, which is HARDLY true in real life

Based on these, a D&D RAW game can at best be used as an approximation snapshot of a particular economy at a particular moment in time. If any meaningful discussion of D&D economics is to be had, you would need to first do a couple of things:

1. create a system that can actually measure supply/demand, and make pricing match that
2. apply said model to labor wages

If you did something like that, you'll notice that a lot of the cost formulas get instantly thrown out the window, and a lot of services will simply get axed.

Friv
2013-03-05, 08:45 PM
You're taking into account the difference in scale between real-world dollars/pounds/euros and Gold Pieces right? I remind you that 50gp is equivalent to a one-pound block of gold. As of the time of this writing one pound of gold in the Real World is worth $25,202.08 USD.

The price of gold has increased pretty dramatically over the past hundred years, though. That's clearly not the conversion rate intended.

For example, a poor meal is 1 sp. If you go by the real-world conversion above, that would make a poor meal $50. I would tend to assume that you're looking for a much lower amount.

I have an old D&D book that suggests a conversion rate of about 1 GP = 20 dollars, although it would probably be around 25 dollars now thanks to inflation. So I'm assuming that 5 million GP is worth around 100 million dollars, with unskilled hirelings being much less expensive and specialized goods being more than in the present day.

elliott20
2013-03-05, 11:22 PM
The price of gold has increased pretty dramatically over the past hundred years, though. That's clearly not the conversion rate intended.

For example, a poor meal is 1 sp. If you go by the real-world conversion above, that would make a poor meal $50. I would tend to assume that you're looking for a much lower amount.

I have an old D&D book that suggests a conversion rate of about 1 GP = 20 dollars, although it would probably be around 25 dollars now thanks to inflation. So I'm assuming that 5 million GP is worth around 100 million dollars, with unskilled hirelings being much less expensive and specialized goods being more than in the present day.
You can't convert prices directly like this. The value of things are not the same relatively to how we see it. i.e. a book in D&D is 1000 gp. I don't care HOW you do the conversion rate, no book is worth that much. The truth is, books were expensive to make back then, due to how hard it was produce.

Take that condition and apply to EVERYTHING, and you get a good idea.

As such, don't bother trying to convert the prices in RAW to our prices. It won't match up.

Slipperychicken
2013-03-05, 11:45 PM
Pay someone to cast Genesis a bunch of times. Move your town off-plane to an idyllic mystical land of happiness, plenty, tranquility, different time traits, and double-rainbows.

In addition, a bunch of self-replicating robot servants who tend to every whim (no way that could go wrong lol). Charge fortunes for tourism to this wonderful place.