[3.5] Monk "fix" question

[Kristinn]

I am DM'ing a campaign where almost all the players new to the game (I am quite experienced myself though). One of the players chose the monk class. I remember the first campaign I played, where there was a monk in the party, and even in the absence of optimization the lower power level of the class was obvious.

The other players are a half-orc Barbarian and a gnome Bard, who rolled ridiculously high stats. The monk is also a gnome. I want a simple way to avoid the "flurry of misses" problem, so that this player can feel like she's contributing.

For the first session I went with allowing Flurry of Blows ability also on standard action attacks, and taking away the attack penalty. I was thinking about reinstating the -2 penalty, and instead giving it full BAB progression.

Other ideas I've seen and liked are:

- Giving monks proficiency with padded and leather (and studded leather?) armor, along with compatibility with class features. Possibly padded armor at first level and leather/studded leather later. Wis to AC really doesn't replace armor on a MAD class such as Monk, and with a d8 hit die/moderate Con he can't afford to be so easy to hit in melee.

- Changing the speed bonus to an ability to move 10/20/30 ft. as a swift action. It is not overpowered at all as Travel Devotion gives 20-30 ft. movement for a feat slot, and we all know class features are generally more powerful than feats. This along with Tumble will help the Monk have the mobility to get out of tight corners.

I would like to add all these four things (full BAB, Flurry as standard, light armor, swift action movement), but I'm afraid that would be overbuffing the class. The other players are not optimized, and I don't want to play favorites.

Please tell me your opinion.
- Kristinn

[avr]

The easiest answer is to use Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords (ToB), note the sidebar on the Unarmed Swordsage variant and use that in place of the Monk class.

If you're asking about your fixes to the exclusion of others, flurry as a standard action and some bonus to the attack roll (losing the -2 or full BAB) should be fine for offence/mobility and the ability to use the lightest armour types helps on defence. I don't think changing the enhancement bonus to move to swift action move changes much. The question still is though why stick with the monk class past 2nd level? Your fixes don't really address this.

[ArcturusV]

I think it's a bit harder than that. You really have to ID what the "Monk" is supposed to be doing. As long as the idea is "Pure warrior" he's always going to suffer compared to everything from Fighters to Barbarians to Swordsages. Just no real way to fix that mess of abilities to become a good "Pure Warrior".

Instead of Armor then, I'd suggest giving him a number of Disable Strikes like the Stunning Fist, Quivering Palm, etc. This could give him at least something to set him apart from the other "Warrior" classes. The Pure DPS style Barbarians and Fighters, the "Spike" damage types like the Rogue. So instead, battlefield control style.

Say something like... Monk has Ki points equal to the Monk level times Wisdom Modifier. Come up with a wide list of strikes and disables that use Ki points. Maybe flat buffs for having unused Ki Points as well. Call it good. It's a bit of the Ninja's flavor (And no one would consider the ninja high power I realize) but at least it's giving the Monk his own role instead of constantly just looking like a barbarian's poorer cousin.

[Kristinn]

The easiest answer is to use Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords (ToB), note the sidebar on the Unarmed Swordsage variant and use that in place of the Monk class.

If you're asking about your fixes to the exclusion of others, flurry as a standard action and some bonus to the attack roll (losing the -2 or full BAB) should be fine for offence/mobility and the ability to use the lightest armour types helps on defence. I don't think changing the enhancement bonus to move to swift action move changes much. The question still is though why stick with the monk class past 2nd level? Your fixes don't really address this.

I know Unarmed Swordsage is a thematically similar and mechanically more powerful class. But to lower the learning curve of the game I am restricting the game to Core. And even if I shoved the book in their faces, none of them would take on more reading or perusing than necessary.

Thanks for your feedback on the suggested buffs, I think I will implement all four of them.


[Advice boiling down to adding more options.]

Again, these are new players, that barely keep up with base game mechanics. While they are still learning it's not a good idea to add more options. It's the same reason none of them is playing a full caster (the Bard player is the only one with any experience of the game).

[ArcturusV]

Well I wouldn't say "More Options" so much as "Dedicated Niche".

Which is what I consider their chief failing. They don't have the "Striker" role to borrow a 4th edition term. A single class rogue far outdoes them as a "Striker" and is just as (Or more) resilient, as is Ranger compared to monk, better spike, and more resilient. Nor are they really good at toe to toe slugfests, that's the realm of Barbarians, Paladins, and Fighters in core.

So... just something. Even if it's not complex. I mean let them use Stunning fist a number of times per encounter, rather than per day. Quivering Palm per day, rather than per week. Give them something automatically like Falling Star Strike for the blind, etc. Just "Hey... you can do this X times per fight".

[Lonely Tylenol]

I am DM'ing a campaign where almost all the players new to the game (I am quite experienced myself though). One of the players chose the monk class. I remember the first campaign I played, where there was a monk in the party, and even in the absence of optimization the lower power level of the class was obvious.

The other players are a half-orc Barbarian and a gnome Bard, who rolled ridiculously high stats. The monk is also a gnome. I want a simple way to avoid the "flurry of misses" problem, so that this player can feel like she's contributing.

For the first session I went with allowing Flurry of Blows ability also on standard action attacks, and taking away the attack penalty. I was thinking about reinstating the -2 penalty, and instead giving it full BAB progression.

Other ideas I've seen and liked are:

- Giving monks proficiency with padded and leather (and studded leather?) armor, along with compatibility with class features. Possibly padded armor at first level and leather/studded leather later. Wis to AC really doesn't replace armor on a MAD class such as Monk, and with a d8 hit die/moderate Con he can't afford to be so easy to hit in melee.

- Changing the speed bonus to an ability to move 10/20/30 ft. as a swift action. It is not overpowered at all as Travel Devotion gives 20-30 ft. movement for a feat slot, and we all know class features are generally more powerful than feats. This along with Tumble will help the Monk have the mobility to get out of tight corners.

I would like to add all these four things (full BAB, Flurry as standard, light armor, swift action movement), but I'm afraid that would be overbuffing the class. The other players are not optimized, and I don't want to play favorites.

Please tell me your opinion.
- Kristinn

First, I know that it's technically not a Pathfinder game, but use the Pathfinder Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk), at least for the table portions. You don't have to introduce the ki pool--although, really, it does help.

Second, I would allow the player to make a traditional full attack action (iterative attacks and all) as a standard action, starting at 8th level, but restrict the flurry of blows to a full-round action. This way, the player's options are between "move and full attack" or "stand still and flurry", instead of "move and flurry" and "stand still and flurry" (which may be a bigger help, but is tactically redundant).

Third, the ki pool already gives a 20-ft. bonus to move speed as a swift action, but it would not be entirely out of line to introduce an option to maybe move up to your Monk's enhancement bonus to speed in the swift action that you spend a ki point to use the ability. For example, a 10th-level Monk would be able to spend a ki point to move 30 feet as a swift action (the Monk's enhancement bonus and not a step more). When that Monk reaches level 12, this movement increases to 40 feet. (No, this is not quite as large a bonus as Travel Devotion--but it is more modular.)

In general, though, Pathfinder's Monk did a lot of useful things for the class without making qualitative changes. It's two pages of reading and (provided you don't go crazy on the archetypes) is still very close to the feel of the 3.5 Monk, and not that hard to adapt to. :smallsmile:

[Kristinn]

First, I know that it's technically not a Pathfinder game, but use the Pathfinder Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk), at least for the table portions. You don't have to introduce the ki pool--although, really, it does help.

Thanks, the Pathfinder Monk is a good comparison. Using Flurry of Blows the PF Monk seems to have full BAB with a -1 penalty on the attack. It seems easier to simply give the class full BAB though, I think I'll stick to that (and the -1 penalty with Flurry of Blows). Adding Padded Armor compatibility is also roughly equivalent to the increased AC bonus, I think I'll add it at 3rd level, and also Leather Armor compatibility at 7th level.

[IamL]

One nice monk fix is simply to make the Flurry of Blows a standard action rather than a full one.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Thanks, the Pathfinder Monk is a good comparison. Using Flurry of Blows the PF Monk seems to have full BAB with a -1 penalty on the attack. It seems easier to simply give the class full BAB though, I think I'll stick to that (and the -1 penalty with Flurry of Blows). Adding Padded Armor compatibility is also roughly equivalent to the increased AC bonus, I think I'll add it at 3rd level, and also Leather Armor compatibility at 7th level.

Actually, it's full BAB with a -2 penalty on each attack: the standard penalties for two-weapon fighting with light weapons (although you add your full STR to each hit anyway, if I recall). That's why, at 1st level, the penalty is -1: It's two behind your ECL (which would mean, if you had full BAB, the shift would be from +1 to -1--a difference of two). If that makes it a little more consistent. :smallsmile:

[Vaz]

Giving the Monk the Ninja Ki Pool and Ghost Step combine and combine with the Ki Pool/Enduring Ki Feats you gain (1.5*(4+Wis))+1 rounds a day Invisibilty STATUS (so you can attack from it and not lose it).

Alternatively, Suggest levels in ninja woth ascetic stalker feat and follow up with Anvenging Executioner to do the same.

[Gwendol]

If you have access to complete scoundrel, you could introduce the skill tricks. Monks don't have the skill points to pull many of them off, but that could also be a way to increase their abilities while sticking with the kung-fu mythos. I'm especially looking at the various mobility skill tricks that you could either just dangle in front of the player, or even hand out as bonus class abilities.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=5

[Mighty_Chicken]

A question I always wanted to make: why do people don't give monks a full BAB?

I know this isn't enough to fix it, but what's the problem with a full BAB? Even in PF, it feels so stupid. You have full BAB... unless ou move. What, I don't even...

Why are people afraid of monks hitting things? Or of monks taking good feats? It's not like they'll do anything dangerous.

IMO the monk can be fixed, at least at the lower levels. With full BAB, flurry as a standard action, extra stunning fists per day = Wis bonus, and PF fixes, the monk is a "martial controller". Frail, but good for strategist players and teamwork. Or am I wrong?

[IamL]

You're right. Though one thing the monk has over most if not all martial classes is perfect saves.

[Kristinn]

A question I always wanted to make: why do people don't give monks a full BAB?

I know this isn't enough to fix it, but what's the problem with a full BAB? Even in PF, it feels so stupid. You have full BAB... unless ou move. What, I don't even...

Why are people afraid of monks hitting things? Or of monks taking good feats? It's not like they'll do anything dangerous.

IMO the monk can be fixed, at least at the lower levels. With full BAB, flurry as a standard action, extra stunning fists per day = Wis bonus, and PF fixes, the monk is a "martial controller". Frail, but good for strategist players and teamwork. Or am I wrong?

I agree. Full BAB and Flurry as a standard should be the starting point for any monk fix. Adding Stunning Fist attempts per day for the Wisdom modifier is also a nice idea. I like giving Wisdom an extra function, as the only thing it does as is is add AC. I also wouldn't like making it X attempts per encounter, that would feel like 4e/videogamey. The players should have to manage resources to last through the day.

[ericgrau]

Monks are too complicated for new players, and even some veterans. I'd simply suggest another class. The lack of group experience actually works against him.

Case in point you're giving him straight damage when his main class feature besides flurry at low level is either grappling or stunning fist. If he wants to do damage in D&D he should pick up a weapon, simple as that. If he wants to avoid physical blows he should wear armor, simple as that. If he wants to focus on those 2 things he should play a fighter or barbarian. There is no kung fu punching master in the Player's Handbook; that's a stereotype that does not apply to this system.

Grappling could work very well in combination with a power attacking barbarian, and unlike grappling with another class he doesn't give up his own damage output to do it. Potions of enlarge person help too. But if that's not his goals again, have him play something else. You could make wild guesses on how to make the class work with more damage and armor, but you'd be lucky to get it right even with help. There aren't many people here who will do the detailed math. And even if you get it right, mechanically you'll have a barbarian who merely looks different. It's simpler to just play a 2nd barbarian, or another class entirely who does more than just dealing damage & soaking damage. Then refluff that class if you must have a certain feel.

[Lupus753]

I thought of ways to fix the (Pathfinder) Monk:

- Full BAB

- Flurry of Blows is a Standard Action (but has limited use, perhaps only a few times per day)

- Slow Fall any distance is available at lvl. 5 (and does not require a wall), other abilities are also available sooner (replacements might be needed), Slow Falls may be replaced with slight adjustments or new abilities

- In cases where you needed Strength, you can use Wisdom instead

- AC bonus from no armor is greatly increased (I wonder if 4 higher would be too much)

- Plenty of other abilities would be buffed, in addition to being available sooner

There are other things I'm less sure about, like improved grappling capabilities or minor buffs. Now, this Monk might be too powerful, but you can't know until one tries. I gave it this much thought because the Monk is my favorite class concept, so I was disappointed that it was bottom of the barrel in core. But, I have never DM'd before, so take this with a grain of salt.

[Curmudgeon]

Well, start by not rolling for stats, or any other part of level advancement. (Hit points at levels after the first are always average + ½.) Instead, adjust the points available for point buy (points used to buy stats, as per DMG page 169) based on the Tier System for Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559):

15 point buy (This is where the Wizard is.)
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
You might try 50 here, but frankly you're better off just forgetting classes this weak.
This assumes you're going to start in your primary class. If you change the primary class in later levels you'd retroactively lose points if necessary, but would never retroactively gain points.

[Kristinn]

Well, start by not rolling for stats, or any other part of level advancement. (Hit points at levels after the first are always average + ½.) Instead, adjust the points available for point buy (points used to buy stats, as per DMG page 169) based on the Tier System for Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559):

15 point buy (This is where the Wizard is.)
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
You might try 50 here, but frankly you're better off just forgetting classes this weak.
This assumes you're going to start in your primary class. If you change the primary class in later levels you'd retroactively lose points if necessary, but would never retroactively gain points.

I usually have point-buy, since having the ability scores to pull off a class is important, and it can be frustrating to be stuck with bad scores. But the Bard player had rolled the character for another session (different DM) a few days earlier. Since she rolled so good stats I thought I could just as well let her use them in this game.

However I like the added excitement and risk in rolling HP, especially the first few levels. I once played with guy playing a Bard with low Con, and who rolled so badly the first few levels, that at level 5 he still had something like 15 hit points. It was hilarious seeing him squirm every time he was targeted by an enemy, and I got good use out of my skill ranks in Heal.

Anyway, I like the idea of different number of points for classes in different tiers.