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W3bDragon
2013-03-05, 04:50 AM
I've been running the Curse of Crimson Throne adventure path from Paizo. Its been really great so far. We just started the second book.

One of my PCs is a diviner studying in the korvosan Academie (http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Acadamae). He is going to take his final exam soon, and I'll like some ideas and input as to how to design this exam.

Here is what the PC knows so far to be true:

* The exam is extremely secretive and everyone that passes it is sworn to secrecy, maybe via magic. The test may or may not be the same every time.

* No matter what school you specialize in, the exam always revolves around Conjuration.

* A mundane character would have no hope of passing the exam.

* The exam somehow scales with level, so it doesn't become trivial at higher levels.

* Failure has a high, but not guaranteed, chance of death.

* Knowledge: Arcana is crucial to success in the exam.

I have some ideas of how to run the test. But my ideas revolve around being quick and brutal. I'd like it to be a bit more drawn out, as I have been building up the exam for this PC since the start of the campaign.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Seleborn
2013-03-05, 06:22 AM
The easy way out would be to not tell the player what transpired in the exam (character knowledge only).

I'm having a hard time thinking how an exam on conjuration could be dangerous (unless your summoned pets turn on you). Maybe that could be it! The room the exam takes place in turns your conjurations against you, and it is through successful arcana checks that you bend them back to your will.

Quirp
2013-03-05, 09:35 AM
There could be a riddle (for which you get help, when you pass a knowledge check/use the right divinations). The answer gives you information on the creature you have to summon, so that you can prepare defenses. Afterwards you have to draw a summoning circle (knowledge does that). If you don't succeed, the creature breaks free and attacks you (chance of death). To scale it with level you can just take a creature of equal CR to the casters level. After summoning you have to get a specific item from the monster and dismiss it.

GungHo
2013-03-05, 09:39 AM
You can crib some ideas from Quest for Glory II's WIT exam, which consisted of a varied number of tests/obstacles that required the prospective wizard to know the proper spell or sequence of spells to overcome a given obstacle. Things there included calming fires, knocking down doors to cover holes in the floor created by the fires, etc. You may have to fudge some of the magic system (i.e. you can cast all spells from your spellbook in this chamber n times) to get it to work or take a real good view at the character's spell list and decide how to set up the tests to have two or three viable "sequences" so that you don't end up railroading a failure.

mjlush
2013-03-05, 10:59 AM
The easy way out would be to not tell the player what transpired in the exam (character knowledge only).


I'd take it a step further, the character has no memory's of the test either. Then I'd have an ongoing mystery as to what terrible (and very plot reverent) events happened in the test

Frozen_Feet
2013-03-05, 11:11 AM
Oh come one! This one's easy!

One of the exam keepers Conjures up a construct, magical beast or dragon. Knowledge (Arcana) governs knowledge of those beasties, so without it, the caster has little chance of succeeding.

The creature is of such type that it can't be harmed by mundane weaponry. Possibly, it is incorporeal. And it's a level-appropriate challenge each time, explaining its diifculty and deadliness.

A Rakish Angel
2013-03-05, 11:25 AM
I've been running the Curse of Crimson Throne adventure path from Paizo. Its been really great so far. We just started the second book.

One of my PCs is a diviner studying in the korvosan Academie (http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Acadamae). He is going to take his final exam soon, and I'll like some ideas and input as to how to design this exam.

Here is what the PC knows so far to be true:

* The exam is extremely secretive and everyone that passes it is sworn to secrecy, maybe via magic. The test may or may not be the same every time.

* No matter what school you specialize in, the exam always revolves around Conjuration.

* A mundane character would have no hope of passing the exam.

* The exam somehow scales with level, so it doesn't become trivial at higher levels.

* Failure has a high, but not guaranteed, chance of death.

* Knowledge: Arcana is crucial to success in the exam.

I have some ideas of how to run the test. But my ideas revolve around being quick and brutal. I'd like it to be a bit more drawn out, as I have been building up the exam for this PC since the start of the campaign.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

See, just from a narrative point of view, that sounds like a set-up to a twist exam of some kind. Like the twist is that the exam isn't designed to test proficiency with magic (the more you cast, the worse the situation gets), but simply to test whether the applicant understands that power, however great, is fundementally finite. You 'pass' only by admitting that you can't overcome some obstacle and letting it defeat you non-fatally, rather than trying to beat it, in which case the exam plays for keeps, so to speak.

EDIT: Or a Ender's Game/Pan's Labyrinth hybrid-type thing: the only way to 'overcome' the test is to do something established as morally reprehensible etc, and the way to 'pass' is to refuse and accept defeat rather than cross that line as above.

Slipperychicken
2013-03-05, 11:27 AM
Written portion: Spellcraft and Know: Arcana checks. Includes multiple choice, short answer, then the "essay" is to successfully identify and copy a spell. Part of the exam is written so as to require a Read Magic spell to complete (the students are made aware of this beforehand). Students receive partial credit if they fail a check by 5 or less.

Make a spell last for at least a specified duration without the use of metamagic (makes sure Caster Level is high enough).

Must watch an instructor cast 10 spells, and identify them as they are cast.



"Dangerous" part: Face an instructor in a mage's duel (they usually hold back, only using spells up to a given caster level, to give the students a chance). Duelists are required to use regulation equipment and spell components, and are forbidden from performance-enhancing drugs or potions. Victory conditions include KO, moving the opponent outside the designated area, and restraining an opponent for 3 rounds. Win or lose, a panel of educators each assign grades based on the student's performance. A losing student may still pass if he demonstrated a strong proficiency in the magic used.

EDIT: For the mage duel, include roughly 5 rounds (30 seconds) to buff.

Infernalbargain
2013-03-05, 03:27 PM
The three big things that early level conjuration does is to make an object appear, make it foggy, and make acid. If you want the puzzle to be good, you'll want at least 3 different solutions.

To make the puzzle impossible to be done by mundane means, you need to strip them of their gear. To make it lethal and exciting, use a real life timer as the penalty for failure. A simple crunching mechanism should work. You can have the trigger function in three possible ways. Expose to magical vapors such as those produced by obscuring mist, manual activation by using acid to poke through the wall, or a sheer weight on the floor. I don't know how to incorporate the K:arcana though.

The Grue
2013-03-05, 04:00 PM
You can crib some ideas from Quest for Glory II's WIT exam, which consisted of a varied number of tests/obstacles that required the prospective wizard to know the proper spell or sequence of spells to overcome a given obstacle. Things there included calming fires, knocking down doors to cover holes in the floor created by the fires, etc. You may have to fudge some of the magic system (i.e. you can cast all spells from your spellbook in this chamber n times) to get it to work or take a real good view at the character's spell list and decide how to set up the tests to have two or three viable "sequences" so that you don't end up railroading a failure.

To build on this idea:

Establish a syllabus of reading material (ie spells) that the character must have studied going into the test (ie copied into their spellbook and maybe cast at least once). Upon beginning the test, temporarily confiscate their spellbook and issue them an academy spellbook containing all the spells from the course material, and design the test to require the clever use of between half and two-thirds of the spells - bonus points for making obstacles look like they need Spell A, when closer examination reveals they require Spell B.

As long as the student has done the course work (ie, copied the required spells into their spellbook), they can prepare spells from the academy-issue book as though it were their own by passing a Spellcraft check. In effect, it's a test of how well the student has memorized the material, and how well they understand the underlying concepts. Sort of like those "in your own words" type questions.

W3bDragon
2013-03-06, 05:14 AM
Thanks for the input everyone.




The easy way out would be to not tell the player what transpired in the exam (character knowledge only).

I'd take it a step further, the character has no memory's of the test either. Then I'd have an ongoing mystery as to what terrible (and very plot reverent) events happened in the test

This would indeed be an easy way out and would add interesting tension to the character's story. However, with everything else going on in the campaign right now, I'd rather just wrap up the exam with some closure. I haven't completely dismissed the idea though and I'm thinking of ways to use it while still providing closure.


The room the exam takes place in turns your conjurations against you, and it is through successful arcana checks that you bend them back to your will.

There could be a riddle (for which you get help, when you pass a knowledge check/use the right divinations). The answer gives you information on the creature you have to summon, so that you can prepare defenses. Afterwards you have to draw a summoning circle (knowledge does that). If you don't succeed, the creature breaks free and attacks you (chance of death).
Indeed that was my first thought as well. The problem I see with that is two-fold. First, the player doesn't have any summoning spells, though I could get around that by providing him with a scroll required for the exam. Secondly, it seems to just boil down to a few of K:Ar checks, which isn't very exciting.

The creature is of such type that it can't be harmed by mundane weaponry. Possibly, it is incorporeal. And it's a level-appropriate challenge each time, explaining its diifculty and deadliness.
I do like the idea of solving the scaling by simply increasing the CR of the summoned creature and using incorporeal creatures to make it mundane-proof. I might even go further and make it always a tough encounter (CR+2) to promote solving the problem without resorting to combat.

See, just from a narrative point of view, that sounds like a set-up to a twist exam of some kind. Like the twist is that the exam isn't designed to test proficiency with magic (the more you cast, the worse the situation gets), but simply to test whether the applicant understands that power, however great, is fundementally finite. You 'pass' only by admitting that you can't overcome some obstacle and letting it defeat you non-fatally, rather than trying to beat it, in which case the exam plays for keeps, so to speak.

That's what brought me here in the first place. Between myself as a DM and the campaign material, the exam has been built up so much that it would be a big let down for the player if it ends up being resolved in a few passed K:Ar checks and if failure means you just have to fight and survive whatever you were trying to control. That seems too uninspired and mundane to me. I'd like to turn the exam into something more philosophical or at least more abstract like you suggest.




You can crib some ideas from Quest for Glory II's WIT exam, which consisted of a varied number of tests/obstacles that required the prospective wizard to know the proper spell or sequence of spells to overcome a given obstacle. Things there included calming fires, knocking down doors to cover holes in the floor created by the fires, etc. You may have to fudge some of the magic system (i.e. you can cast all spells from your spellbook in this chamber n times) to get it to work or take a real good view at the character's spell list and decide how to set up the tests to have two or three viable "sequences" so that you don't end up railroading a failure.

To build on this idea:

Establish a syllabus of reading material (ie spells) that the character must have studied going into the test (ie copied into their spellbook and maybe cast at least once). Upon beginning the test, temporarily confiscate their spellbook and issue them an academy spellbook containing all the spells from the course material, and design the test to require the clever use of between half and two-thirds of the spells - bonus points for making obstacles look like they need Spell A, when closer examination reveals they require Spell B.

As long as the student has done the course work (ie, copied the required spells into their spellbook), they can prepare spells from the academy-issue book as though it were their own by passing a Spellcraft check. In effect, it's a test of how well the student has memorized the material, and how well they understand the underlying concepts. Sort of like those "in your own words" type questions.

I do like the idea of giving him a standardized exam spell book to work with. That would help address the issue of specific spells required for specific tasks. This would also allow me to setup a multistage test to allow some problem solving using his knowledge and the exam spell book.

This is what I've come up with based on all your input. On the off chance that any of my players read this, I'm spoilering it, read no further please.

The test:
What I'm envisioning now is that the student is required to arrive on the day of the test with no spells memorized. Then he is presented with a multistage exam:

* Stage one: A written test. Basically just some K:Ar checks. The DCs are very high, customized to each student's knowledge, but no less than 25. Possibly up to 45. Required rolls to succeed will range from 11 to 20.

* Stage two: He is given the exam spell book and presented with a brief view of the next room, which contains the final exam. He has 30 seconds to take in the view, but cannot enter or cast any spells. After that, the room is closed and he is allowed to prepare spells. Once he picks his spells, he enters the exam room.

* Stage three: The exam room will have multiple obstacles of some sort, culminating in a bound creature. The object of the test has to do with the bound creature. Either defeat him or take something from him or bind him to your will. Something along these lines. The obstacles in the room make your task harder and you can use your spells to get rid of them, but every obstacle removed reduces the danger level, thus reducing your overall score. Those that try to ace the test without removing any of the obstacles to get a high score end up thrusting themselves into an impossible situation. Whereas those that don't mind getting a barely passing grade and playing it safe disable all the obstacles and make the test easier on themselves.

Risk: The students take the written test, not do very well because of the high DCs, and then put pressure on themselves to make up for it in the exam room. As such, they invariably bite off more than they can chew and end up getting themselves killed.

Grading: That would be the whole point of the exam. Its a life lesson. Take your time, address every situation one obstacle at a time, and don't be too prideful, else you'll one day bite off more than you can chew and end up dead. Unlike the Academie, in the real world, no one is grading your success.

Outcome: If the student succeeds, the dean of the Enchantment school arrives and casts a series of Modify Memory spells on the student, removing all memory of the test itself, while leaving the life lesson conclusion intact.

mjlush
2013-03-06, 06:30 AM
In a written test I would be inclined to think there making so many rolls that there effectively
taking 10.5. The thing that makes the difference is their bonus

Lets say to just pass the test (50% mark) you need a K:Ar bonus of about 15.

OK say we had a system where you made 10 notional rolls and totaled up the score.

10 x (10.5+15) = 255 that would make the 100% mark 510 to get that you would need a K:Ar bonus of ~40

15 skill = 255/510 = D grade
20 skill = 305/510 = C
25 skill = 355/510 = B
30 skill = 405/510 = A
35 skill = 455/510 = A+
40 skill = 505/510 = A++

Just totaling the averages is a bit dull I'd be inclined to go for something like 7 take 10.5 rolls + 3 real skill rolls.

That would mean someone with a +20 bonus would be guaranteed to get (7x(10.5+20)) + (3x21) = 213+63 = 276 so on a good roll they can get a C failing that they get a D.

Just to make it a bit more fun I'd add in the chance of a crit on a 19 they get a bonus roll on a 20 they get two bonus rolls. which may push them up a whole grade.

EDIT: just another thought I'd be inclined to hand out some kind of minor honor to anyone getting a A or above

Noldo
2013-03-06, 07:01 AM
One idea to make Kn:Arcana checks more important (and perhaps more interesting?) without making it impossible for the character to succeed even if he or she rolls poorly:

The character’s success in the written test determines the content of his or her (standardized) exam spell book.

In practice all possibly available spells would be divided into groups, one group corresponding to each Kn:Arcana test. Depending on the character’s degree of success (fail/average[/good]/excellent) spells are either added to the character’s repertoire (i.e. the player/character has more options as they face the final challenge) or removed from the pool (i.e. the character is more likely to make optimal choices as they prepare for the final challenge).

Limiting the choices places more emphasis on character knowledge/skill, giving more options rewards the player’s skill, assuming they can make best out of the given options. Of course the options may be mixed so that the number of spells remain constant, but character’s success gives him/her better or more viable spells to use.

In either case a less skilled character could, theoretically, still push through the final test if he or she manages to use the provided spells effectively, but the test environment would still reward character's skill.

mjlush
2013-03-06, 10:46 AM
One idea to make Kn:Arcana checks more important (and perhaps more interesting?) without making it impossible for the character to succeed even if he or she rolls poorly:

The character’s success in the written test determines the content of his or her (standardized) exam spell book.


I'm not convinced coming up with anything more than the vaguest system to link the written test and spellbook will have a visible effect. I'm guessing this is only ever going to be used once so noone is going to say ooh its different this time...

Miriad
2013-03-06, 11:13 AM
Before taking the Exam the player must sign some papers. To the common eye it is a simple inscription form. In reality is has ben written with arcane mark. Anyone signing this piece of paper is actually signing their acknowledgement of failing at magical illusions 101 and fails immediately.

MickJay
2013-03-06, 12:06 PM
I like the idea of a moral choice being in there somewhere - 'succeeding' in a presented task requires making a choice considered unacceptable by the designers of the exam, and therefore causes that part of the test to be failed. Refusing to make an 'evil' decision, while it might not solve the apparent problem, will constitute a low 'pass'. If the examined mage figures out a non-obvious way to solve the problem while staying on the 'good' side of morality, they get full marks.

Hylas
2013-03-06, 12:25 PM
Have a room where whoever enters it will certainly die, but not instantly (poison gas cloud, room of rusty used needles, super hot or cold) and then to proceed you have to press a button on the other side and return to the entrance. Summon Monster 1 will easily solve the problem without any harm to the caster.

mjlush
2013-03-06, 03:46 PM
Before taking the Exam the player must sign some papers. To the common eye it is a simple inscription form. In reality is has ben written with arcane mark. Anyone signing this piece of paper is actually signing their acknowledgement of failing at magical illusions 101 and fails immediately.

I once had a character with a PhD in forgery from Oxford, he had a certificate and everything :-)

Rorrik
2013-03-06, 05:03 PM
I like the idea of a moral choice being in there somewhere - 'succeeding' in a presented task requires making a choice considered unacceptable by the designers of the exam, and therefore causes that part of the test to be failed. Refusing to make an 'evil' decision, while it might not solve the apparent problem, will constitute a low 'pass'. If the examined mage figures out a non-obvious way to solve the problem while staying on the 'good' side of morality, they get full marks.

Take a page out of the Star Trek playbook and give him the Kobayashi Maru. They briefly see the task before them, more or less an encounter of normal difficulty for them given the use of all of their spells. They are informed they must leave their spell book outside the test and are given a replacement spellbook. The replacement spell book is all conjuration spells, and no summon monster or damaging spells above 3rd level. The highest level spell is Drawmij’s Instant Summons, the only 7th level spell.

If they attempt to confront the task bravely with the spells provided, even if they fail they are saved receive points according to their level of success. Cowardice is instantly failure and can lead to death. However, they can "cheat" by casting the instant summons on their spellbook, preparing powerful spells from it, and summoning it once inside.

Maybe cheating has a backlash, maybe it is viewed as ingenuity, since the test was set up to allow it.

I would give him the view of the room at the end of a session if possible and then leave him plenty of time to plan how to handle it with the conjuration school spell list.

As far as Knowledge: Arcana, I don't like the idea of a written test, but I can't come up with anything better. It just seems like a series of rolls on test problems is really meta and not very exciting. Maybe if it is a timed test and he can decide to try again on a problem if he fails a check. Each check takes 1 minute, there are 25 questions, 30 minute test. Even then, I don't think the player involvement is exciting enough.

W3bDragon
2013-03-07, 02:38 AM
@mjlush: I might use a grading system like you suggest, though it would be toned down a bit as the player is only 5th level at the moment, with a K:Ar bonus of 13.

@Noldo: I like the idea of having the first test impact the other beyond just the possible score, but I don't like reducing the number of available spells as a result of a bad performance on the written test. Since I would still need to leave in the bare minimum spells required to have a chance of success, reducing the spell list might actually make it easier rather than harder.

@Miriad: Heh, that's nifty. However, since I won't be fielding tests for each individual school, and the test is focused on conjuration, I think I'll skip that idea.

@MickJay: The problem with making this about morals is that the Academie's morals hover somewhere between Lawful Evil and Lawful Neutral. Closer to Evil. This is why I chose the final outcome of the test to be a life lesson that somewhat fits with that mentality.

@Hylas: That's an interesting idea. Not on its own, but as one part of the whole exam room setup.

@Rorrik: My players and I are all big Star Trek fans, and a variation of the Kobayashi Maru will be instantly recognized. Besides, the Academie being mostly LE, rewarding students for cheating isn't that remarkable. I might incorporate the time limit on the K:Ar checks so that the player gets to decide how many checks he wants to take 10 on and how many he wants to roll. I just have to work out an interesting mathematical model for it.


@Everyone else: I'm really drawing a blank on the contents of the exam room as described by my last post. Hylas' idea about using something like poison gas works as one of the obstacles. The gas would be harmless to the bound creature, but nasty to the student. I'd like to add another 4 or 5 obstacles at least.

MickJay
2013-03-07, 08:51 AM
Then the ambiguous choice doesn't have to be about morality: it could be simply about reinforcing that life lesson. If the lesson was something along the lines of 'the organization first, you second, everything else third', it's still quite easy to put together a scenario along the lines of: the mage has a choice between delivering important documents to the chief mage on time, or saving his home village from flood. Saving the village is fine, but he fails the organization: fail. Securing the documents on time is better, but the mage allowed his home to be destroyed; admirable dedication, but less than optimal result, low pass. It's up to the mage to find a way to fulfill both tasks on time for best results.

Blightedmarsh
2013-03-07, 09:07 AM
You could run a conjuration spell in reverse so instead of summoning a creature to you, you go to its realm.

The more powerful you are the more the locals will notice you and take issue at your presence, trying to drive you off, enslave or devour you.

In the end you have to forge a contract with a powerful being for aide or power or whatnot without signing over your soul. You also have to get back alive.

You need to know how to make the spell work, about the locals and the environment you end up in as well as a broad understanding of magical contracts.