878: Tactical options

[pendell]

As of 878 The OOTS is down two members while the LG has gained two (one vamped, the other dominated). A third member has been separated from the party. The Linear guild remains at full strength.

It appears that direct tactical victory through overwhelming force is now impossible. There is no one in OOTS capable of turning undead or healing.

Roy doesn't know any of this , yet. But I assume he will learn it soon enough.

If Roy knows what we know now, what are his options?

1) Kill with a borrowed knife (http://marketingdeviant.com/kill-with-a-borrowed-knife/) . Roy doesn't know that Team Evil is coming but they have to show up sooner or later. When this happens, the optimal choice is probably to get the LG and Team Evil to weaken each other as much as possible, then swoop in and defeat the one still standing.

Problem: Tarquin already has this strategy in mind. He intends to use the OOTS as cannon fodder to penetrate the gate defenses, then seize it for himself.

2) Borrowed knife, option 2: Use the temple defenses, if any remain active, to attrit Tarquin and company, then finish them off.

3) Guerrilla action. Hide within the dungeon and wait for an opportunity to strike at Tarquin. Perhaps they will separate , allowing the OOTS to take out an isolated enemy. Perhaps the LG will trigger a trap granting opportunities.

4) Ender Wiggin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ender_Wiggin). Go directly to the gate and destroy it. Even if it means their own deaths. This is not "victory" but it does prevent Tarquin or anyone else from mis-using the gate. It may be the best we can hope for in this situation.

Incidentally, I do not share the Giant's belief that good storytelling requires the protaganists' survival. Heroic self-sacrifice makes a good story to. See: Texas Alamo, Leonidas at the Hot Gates.

That won't happen, of course, this time around, because we know we've got at least one more book at the last gate.

But even so, I think OOTS' best option at this point is to destroy the gate. If at all possible, to do so in such a way that the blast destroys the Linear Guild and Team Evil at the same time.

Are there other options?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The Succubus]

That's some very sound logic there and when you stop and think about all the possible foes they'd have to face, the OotS don't really have many options.

There's no guarantee that Xykon will immediately attack LG & friends immediately upon seeing them. He's evil but he's not entirely stupid or reckless. Redcloak will almost certainly try to sound them out, either one way or the other.

KRAAAACKOOOOOM would be the smart option here.

[Aeryn]

That's some very sound logic there and when you stop and think about all the possible foes they'd have to face, the OotS don't really have many options.

There's no guarantee that Xykon will immediately attack LG & friends immediately upon seeing them. He's evil but he's not entirely stupid or reckless. Redcloak will almost certainly try to sound them out, either one way or the other.

KRAAAACKOOOOOM would be the smart option here.

Xykon might not, but Redcloak probably will. Nale and Tarquin both look a lot like Elan, and he's aptly demonstrated that he's through taking "stupid risks".

Side note: I'm more interested in watching Tarquin and Malack face off against Xykon and Redcloak than in their battle with the OOTS -- though that may never happen. If any "warrior" could defeat Xykon, it would be Tarquin. Especially now that Roy won't be getting the Destruction boost to his starmetal blade...

[pendell]

Actually, I'm speaking of tactics but this may bring up a storytelling issue as well.

I'm going to trust Rich to work his way through this, but at this point he's walking perilously close to making OOTS irrelevant to the outcome of book 5. They simply don't have enough power to affect the activities of the other actors in the dungeon. Even if , say, Roy does a hail-mary pass and runs in to save the day while the other actors are occupied, this means that most of the *battle action* will have to be between Team Evil and the Linear Guild. The OOTS are bystanders. It's like watching WWII between Germany and Russia from the viewpoint of Switzerland. Whatever happens, you don't have any way to meaningfully affect the outcome, so who cares what you do?

I'm not saying this is certainly going to happen. Rich Burlew is a better storyteller than I am. But I believe the possibility does pose a risk to the story.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Chantelune]

The OOTS is not completely out of healer as Elan started to focus a bit more on the healing side of bards since Therkla. Won't make up for losing Durkon, heal wise, but still best than relying purely on potions.

As for the LG, there's a good chance that Tarquin and Malack have their own agenda that does not include Nale and what remains of his LG. Plus, Nale distrust Malack and Tarquin as well. I doubt he will be happy to see that Malack has now Durkon and Belkar with him. There's going to be even more tension beetween the LG, I think.

I think Malacks next actions might hold a great deal over what will happen next. From the distinction he made beetween children and brothers, I think he's going to let Durkon have his free will in the next strips, so depending on what's left of Durkon's initial personality here, he might try to help the order again (but not sure if the oots will let him back on the team just like that) or, ironically, try to get both sides to forge a temporary alliance in order to prevent Xykon to get the gate.

As for the order, I think their best bet is to destroy this gate, then try an all or nothing at the last gate, probably with the help of the azurites to back them up a bit.

[Olinser]

As of 878 The OOTS is down two members while the LG has gained two (one vamped, the other dominated). A third member has been separated from the party. The Linear guild remains at full strength.

It appears that direct tactical victory through overwhelming force is now impossible. There is no one in OOTS capable of turning undead or healing.

Roy doesn't know any of this , yet. But I assume he will learn it soon enough.

If Roy knows what we know now, what are his options?

1) Kill with a borrowed knife (http://marketingdeviant.com/kill-with-a-borrowed-knife/) . Roy doesn't know that Team Evil is coming but they have to show up sooner or later. When this happens, the optimal choice is probably to get the LG and Team Evil to weaken each other as much as possible, then swoop in and defeat the one still standing.

Problem: Tarquin already has this strategy in mind. He intends to use the OOTS as cannon fodder to penetrate the gate defenses, then seize it for himself.

2) Borrowed knife, option 2: Use the temple defenses, if any remain active, to attrit Tarquin and company, then finish them off.

3) Guerrilla action. Hide within the dungeon and wait for an opportunity to strike at Tarquin. Perhaps they will separate , allowing the OOTS to take out an isolated enemy. Perhaps the LG will trigger a trap granting opportunities.

4) Ender Wiggin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ender_Wiggin). Go directly to the gate and destroy it. Even if it means their own deaths. This is not "victory" but it does prevent Tarquin or anyone else from mis-using the gate. It may be the best we can hope for in this situation.

Incidentally, I do not share the Giant's belief that good storytelling requires the protaganists' survival. Heroic self-sacrifice makes a good story to. See: Texas Alamo, Leonidas at the Hot Gates.

That won't happen, of course, this time around, because we know we've got at least one more book at the last gate.

But even so, I think OOTS' best option at this point is to destroy the gate. If at all possible, to do so in such a way that the blast destroys the Linear Guild and Team Evil at the same time.

Are there other options?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I notice you left out one major possibility - Xykon shows up, but the MiTD decides he wants to fight on Roy's side, instead (though I think that's more likely he's going to encounter one of his kind at Kraagor's gate, or maybe even O-Chul makes his reappearance, and MiTD sides with him!).

But if it's played straight, even if they have a battle royale to the finish, I don't see any possible way that Roy's team can defeat whoever is left standing. Malack or Tarquin could take on what's left of the OOTS pretty easily, and Xykon or Redcloak alone would win hands down.

Really, the only realistic option Roy has is blow the gate while they're fighting and hopefully take all of them down in the blast.

[Olinser]

I notice you left out one major possibility - Xykon shows up, but the MiTD decides he wants to fight on Roy's side, instead (though I think that's more likely he's going to encounter one of his kind at Kraagor's gate, or maybe even O-Chul makes his reappearance, and MiTD sides with him!).

But if it's played straight, even if they have a battle royale to the finish, I don't see any possible way that Roy's team can defeat whoever is left standing. Malack or Tarquin could take on what's left of the OOTS pretty easily, and Xykon or Redcloak alone would win hands down.

Really, the only realistic option Roy has is blow the gate while they're fighting and hopefully take all of them down in the blast.

To elaborate on the mechanics of it, the only healing the OOTS has left is Elan, who will run out of healing spells FAST. From a cheesy standpoint, all Malack has to do is go in, do a bit of damage to, gaseous retreat, wait a few minutes to heal whatever damage he took, go in, do some more damage, gaseous retreat, and repeat until he takes one of them down. Rinse, repeat until they are all dead. He'll blow through any healing Elan can do in just a couple rounds.

Tarquin has already proved he is a match for the entire guild when they had both Durkon AND Belkar fighting with them - take those 2 out and he'll blow through Roy+Haley without even trying.

Likewise, they couldn't stand up to Xykon alone - much less if he has Redcloak around to throw a Harm or two on him.

[Quild]

What Roy, Haley and Elan may find behind the door they're trying to open may change the whole thing :).

It's sad how bad it turned since that hell hound was summoned. Many "if" could have save the day :smallfurious:

[white lancer]

We had to know that this gate would get destroyed somehow, since there has to be a reason they go to the last gate. I think Durkon's death will convince Roy that they have to be the ones to destroy the gate since they no longer have the power to defend it. That way they buy time to come up with a different plan to deal with the last gate.

[Rorrik]

If we don't care about good storytelling at all, then the best outcome as far stopping evil forces coming in control of a gate is for OotS to lure them in deep, set up the gate to be destroyed(without the knowledge of the other players) and hopefully have V on hand to teleport them out before it blows, taking LG and Team Evil with it.

Tactically, maybe the OotS can use Belkar's domination to their advantage. The little maniac is pretty much always out of control and has low will, so a clever Elan illusion could easily trick him into accidentally sacrificing himself to destroy the gate.

In fact, Elan's illusions are one of the best tactical forces they have without Durkon and V around. They could be used to replace some of the defense illusions to keep the other two players away from them, like replacing the illusory wall in front of the warded door.

[pendell]

hopefully have V on hand to teleport them out before it blows, taking LG and Team Evil with it.


Problem: V can't cast teleport.

Note to self: Whenever I am playing an RPG and enter a dungeon, make sure we have at least one casting of teleport/dimension door/whatever available, whether through caster or through item.



In fact, Elan's illusions are one of the best tactical forces they have without Durkon and V around. They could be used to replace some of the defense illusions to keep the other two players away from them, like replacing the illusory wall in front of the warded door.


Agreed. The problem is that Elan needs someone to guide him in order to make best use of his illusions. And while Roy or Haley are nursemaiding Elan they aren't contributing to the battle in their own unique ways.

*Thinks* It's too bad there's not some kind of artificial-intelligence tutor we could give to Elan which would help him use his illusions effectively.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Eloel]

Darth V.
IFCC sees the opportunity, seizes V, destroys enemies, loses control just before they seize the gate. Day saved.

[pendell]

And thus V atones for all his/her misdeeds in one glorious act of seppuku. Very story-appropriate. It's the kind of contrivance , though, that while Rich can bring it off it's not something Roy can realistically plan for. He doesn't know that V has that deal, and if he did it would be very hard to predict the exact round when it would end.

Hmm .. so I guess I would say that is a definite storytelling option for Rich, but not a tactical option for Roy.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rorrik]

Problem: V can't cast teleport.

I always forget that. Maybe they have a scroll?


Agreed. The problem is that Elan needs someone to guide him in order to make best use of his illusions. And while Roy or Haley are nursemaiding Elan they aren't contributing to the battle in their own unique ways.

*Thinks* It's too bad there's not some kind of artificial-intelligence tutor we could give to Elan which would help him use his illusions effectively.

Maybe we can convince Elan that Banjo, his mighty deity, is able to direct him. With placebo divine guidance he might perform better.

[Twilight Jack]

Additionally, we have no evidence to suggest that a fiend-controlled V would possess the arcane might necessary to destroy enemies with any greater efficacy than normal V. After all, Darth Suvie's enhanced abilities were the result of the soul splice, not the direct power of the fiends themselves.

None of which suggests that it would be impossible for the IFCC to channel boatloads of fiendish power through the confiscated body and soul of V, only that their ability to do so is not a foregone conclusion.

[Twilight Jack]

I always forget that. Maybe they have a scroll?

Vaarsuvius can't use a scroll of Teleport either. Successful use of a scroll would require a Use Magic Device check at DC 29, probably by either Haley or Elan. Do either of them have the ranks in UMD for that? It seems unlikely.

[TopCheese]

I always forget that. Maybe they have a scroll?.

V still can't use the scroll of it so unless the Bard or Rogue has some UMD... That scroll is worth the price of an improvised weapon...

[Bird]

*Thinks* It's too bad there's not some kind of artificial-intelligence tutor we could give to Elan which would help him use his illusions effectively.

Heh, too bad bards don't get familiars. A Blackwing could work wonders for Elan.

[Chantelune]

*Thinks* It's too bad there's not some kind of artificial-intelligence tutor we could give to Elan which would help him use his illusions effectively.



You mean some sort of GladOS ? The OOTS is already in pretty deep trouble without this on top of the rest. :smallbiggrin:

Also, concerning UMD, we know that Haley have at least some ranks in it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html) to cast probably sending. And she should have decent to good inteligence. Would that be enough to allow her succes on a moderate roll, though ?

And, more importantly, would the order willing to risk their safety on a roll that is not 100% sure to succeed ? If that fail and they don't manage to kill Red Cloack and Xykon (and destroying the phylactery in the process), then there will be no one else to stop TE at the last gate beside a couple azurites that won't really put up much of a fight.

[Rorrik]

Also, concerning UMD, we know that Haley have at least some ranks in it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html) to cast probably sending. And she should have decent to good inteligence. Would that be enough to allow her succes on a moderate roll, though ?

Nope, just didn't think about what I was saying again, my bad. Suicidal explosion it is.

But that comic link is ironic at this time because they are going to end up facing the Linear Guild at a major tactical disadvantage anyway, and without casters. Roy's just going to have to get more sick of it.

[brujon]

Assuming V has access to 7th level spells, he can use Limited Wish to replicate a Raise Dead spell, using the option to replicate ANY spell of a school not prohibited up to level 5 (not limited to Arcane only), this makes it feasible. Problem is, it explicitly does not allow revival of creatures that were previously turned into Undead, so Durkon is automatically out of the picture.

V could still use Limited Wish into Raise Dead to maybe revive one of the Draketooths, which makes the tactical option of turning the temple's defenses back on feasible again. Speaking of feasibility... I highly doubt that ALL of the people defending the temple were Draketooths, or that they didn't have any kind of failsafe to someone on the outside, and based on the timelapse between V's Familicide and they actually reaching the Temple, i'm betting some contingencies were definetely set in motion. It would not be completely unfeasible for an unknown party to arrive before the upcoming battle and sway the odds either way.

V also has that special Sending spell she researched in order to penetrate the Cloister, but that she never got around to using. This is a possible way they have of communicating with Hinjo's Fleet, which presumably are already en route, since they found out the Xykon has found his phylactery. They may or may not arrive in time either way, however, i expect they have at least a few wizards capable of teleportation, or other means of fast travel

Command Undead is another possible option, however, it's a weak one. It's only a second level spell and it targets a Will save, Durkon and Malack's strongest saves. Still, it's a 1 in 20 chance of failure even then, so perhaps, this will be the kind of turnaround the Order needs.

Failing that, i assume that V and the Order can still shutdown both Malack and Durkon if they drag the battle to outside and V manages to Greater Dispel their Protection from Daylight. This would instantly destroy both of them, and V has an edge, because his caster level is certainly higher than Malack's, since he's not as strong a cleric as V is a wizard, because of how LA works.

Another possible option i see, which is a variation on using the temple's defenses against the Linear Guild, is a targetted simple Dispel Magic on that heavily trapped door when the Guild is in it's vicinity. The Dispel would automatically trigger *EVERY* trap on that door instantenously, including the more deadly options like the Meteor Swarm.

Of course, Roy has that undead slaying Greatsword, and could very well inflict serious damage on both Durkon and Malack in single melee combat. Difficult, assuming that Tarquin will probably take him head on, and Roy probably won't be able to wiggle out of that confrontation and target the back row spellcasters.

A well placed spell from V could, however, split the Linear guild. A good Wall of Iron or Solid Fog can split the party in a way that's beneficial to the Order, but we won't likely be seeing such tactics as they've been recently used, and Tarquin is already prepared for such an occasion.

In any case, i don't see the party actually LOSING a head on battle, but being forced to retreat, definetely.

[Twilight Jack]

Raise Dead via Limited Wish won't work for a number of reasons. The first is that it's a Conjuration spell which, as one of V's barred schools, places it out of reach for Limited Wish (he can only manage non-Wizard spells of up to 4th level from barred schools).

Secondly, even if his vampiric form were destroyed, Durkon will now require a Resurrection to return, as a result of his time as an undead. I realize that you weren't recommending the spell for him, but I thought it worth mentioning.

Third, your actual suggested targets, the Draketooths, have been dead for far too long for Raise Dead to be effective.

Finally, Limited Wish does not obviate the need for any expensive material components required by the spell being duplicated. Unless I'm mistaken, the diamonds needed to cast the spell are currently in the possession of an undead dwarf.

[Zherog]

Assuming V has access to 7th level spells, he can use Limited Wish to replicate a Raise Dead spell, using the option to replicate ANY spell of a school not prohibited up to level 5 (not limited to Arcane only), this makes it feasible. Problem is, it explicitly does not allow revival of creatures that were previously turned into Undead, so Durkon is automatically out of the picture.

Raise dead is a conjuration spell - one of V's prohibited schools - so she can't use limited wish to replicate it.

[Psyren]

To elaborate on the mechanics of it, the only healing the OOTS has left is Elan, who will run out of healing spells FAST. From a cheesy standpoint, all Malack has to do is go in, do a bit of damage to, gaseous retreat, wait a few minutes to heal whatever damage he took, go in, do some more damage, gaseous retreat, and repeat until he takes one of them down. Rinse, repeat until they are all dead. He'll blow through any healing Elan can do in just a couple rounds.

It's entirely possible that Roy could seriously wreck Malack though, who is likely short on buffs at this point. We're talking about the guy who Great Cleaved mummies after all; that sword of his is packing serious anti-undead mojo at this point.

[TopCheese]

It's entirely possible that Roy could seriously wreck Malack though, who is likely short on buffs at this point. We're talking about the guy who Great Cleaved mummies after all; that sword of his is packing serious anti-undead mojo at this point.

Which makes me want to sing "oh christmas tree oh christmas tree..."

He may not be decked out with a ton of tinsil but that is one damn big star on top.

[pendell]

But that comic link is ironic at this time because they are going to end up facing the Linear Guild at a major tactical disadvantage anyway, and without casters. Roy's just going to have to get more sick of it.

This reminds me of an old solo gamebook set in the world of Keith Laumer (http://www.gamebooks.org/show_item.php?id=678)

One of the paths made you chief of security on a sleeper ship. Rebels have come out of coldsleep early and are attempting to take over the ship. But of course you don't know that. All you know is that 2 personnel have gone missing in the cargo hold.

Options:
1) Send 2 troops to investigate.
2) Go yourself.
3) Ignore it and trust your surveillance equipment to alert you to any problems.

3) Is obviously stupid. 1) is the point of interest here ,as THOSE guys won't come back either. if you like, you can continue sending 2 or 3 man search parties back , each of them not coming back ..

... of course, if you try it a third time, your own crew shoots you instead. They're tired of having their lives thrown away.

Moral: Splitting the party? Bad, BAD idea. The entire Order should have gone to look for Belkar as a group. Doesn't anyone watch horror movies anymore?


ETA: Terrible idea for Roy to get into close combat with vampires. Malack's options:

1) Harm + quickened moderate wounds. Roy is dead in one round.
Other possible option:
2) Roy attacks 1, is grappled by the other. 1d6 rounds later, the LG has another vampire recruit.

ONE high-level vampire is an appropriate encounter for the entire party working together. MULTIPLE vampires of the level Durkon and Malak are are ... what CL exactly? I don't have the calculator in front of me but the initial result is : "NO".


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[[sWc]Konman]

Moral: Splitting the party? Bad, BAD idea. The entire Order should have gone to look for Belkar as a group. Doesn't anyone watch horror movies anymore?



that is of course under the assumption that haley could stop what she was doing without the damn door going off with a huge boom. she was kinda in the middle of things. the one i dont get is why elan didnt come with durkon to find the belkster, but i can understand him staying up top to 'defend' the immobile haley and roy.

[pendell]

Can someone help me with the Challenge Calculator? (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) I punched in 3 level 15 players (Roy, Elan, Vaarsuvius) against 2 CR 15 monsters (Malack, Durkon) Result suggests it is a very difficult encounter. Have I miscalculated?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Chantelune]

Konman;14834734']that is of course under the assumption that haley could stop what she was doing without the damn door going off with a huge boom. she was kinda in the middle of things. the one i dont get is why elan didnt come with durkon to find the belkster, but i can understand him staying up top to 'defend' the immobile haley and roy.

Elan's helpfulness is random at best. Plus, the dungeon being mostly protected by a combination of traps and illusions, the latter having disappeared, with the LG having retreated, it was a decent assumption that there was a very low chance to encounter any resistance that Durkon wouldn't be able to overcome, being a high level cleric. And Durkon planned to rejoin with Belkar, so coming back wouldn't have been much more difficult.

On the other hand, Roy and Haley were in a delicate position, as Haley mentioned when Roy was about to fight the direwolf. A random low level monster might have made Haley botch her disarming badly. Having Elan to keep watch was the safer for all.

Durkon walking in on Malack and him being a vampire was unforseen by them.

[hamishspence]

On the other hand, Roy and Haley were in a delicate position, as Haley mentioned when Roy was about to fight the direwolf.

Hellhound- the flamebreath and pointy tail are hints- and Belkar calls it one here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0868.html

[Kish]

Can someone help me with the Challenge Calculator? (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) I punched in 3 level 15 players (Roy, Elan, Vaarsuvius) against 2 CR 15 monsters (Malack, Durkon) Result suggests it is a very difficult encounter. Have I miscalculated?

Respectfully,

Brian P.
What you're missing is that a 50% chance of death is "overwhelming." A decent challenge for a group of four level 15 characters is supposed to be one level 15 monster, who will use up approximately 20% of the party's resources.

[pendell]

When you say "50%" chance of death, do you mean for a single PC or do you mean 50% chance of TPK?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

TPK. So, two groups of identical level 15 (or level anything, as long as it's the same) adventurers are an overwhelming encounter for each other, and any situation where the adventurers don't outnumber their enemies four to one is "adventure-climax level tough," at least.

[Lamech]

It's entirely possible that Roy could seriously wreck Malack though, who is likely short on buffs at this point. We're talking about the guy who Great Cleaved mummies after all; that sword of his is packing serious anti-undead mojo at this point.
At best he could force Malack to assume gaseous form for a few turns. At which point Malack would attempt to strike again, probably with something along the lines of his dominate gaze. At which point Roy could try and force Malack into mist form again. But... after a few cycles he'll land a dominate. Especially if he is a vampire lord and can do it while talking.

[Rorrik]

At best he could force Malack to assume gaseous form for a few turns. At which point Malack would attempt to strike again, probably with something along the lines of his dominate gaze. At which point Roy could try and force Malack into mist form again. But... after a few cycles he'll land a dominate. Especially if he is a vampire lord and can do it while talking.

That dominate is ridiculously powerful. Even if Malack and Durkon do nothing more on their turns than try to dominate the lowest will enemy that is not dominated, I think they would have them all dominated within 4 or 5 rounds.

Their best bet, knowing what we know, and knowing Durkon has a large portion of his own consciousness, may be to try to talk Durkon down and turn him again to their side. He could then dominate Nale and maybe the Kobold. This all assumes that Malack gives Durkon his own will as well.

[Ghosty]

At best he could force Malack to assume gaseous form for a few turns. At which point Malack would attempt to strike again, probably with something along the lines of his dominate gaze...

I am confused. Why are we assuming that a vampire can't take damage while in gaseous form and above zero HP? The SRD states that,
Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. but it uses the word, "Forced." I.e., a vampire that is in gaseous form because its opponent has driven it below zero HP. When Malack went into gaseous form with (presumably) 1 HP after Durkon Healed him, why, if Durkon was within range, couldn't he continue to inflict damage upon Malack the next round? It would have been a nice time for Thor's Lightning...

Anyway, the spell description for Gaseous Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm) doesn't prohibit the gaseous creature from receiving damage, even physical damage (which I wouldn't have expected.) It does give the recipient DR 10/Magic, but Vampires already have that, and the DRs don't stack.

So why couldn't the Order chase down Malack during one of his tactical retreats, and have either Roy, Haley, or Elan continue to whack at his cloud? Again, the spell description doesn't prohibit melee weapons from inflicting damage upon the gaseous creature. Once below zero, then Malack has to find a coffin. I wouldn't be surprised if the smug snake didn't already have one in the depths of the pyramid, but it would slow him down for an hour or two.

A side benefit is that supernatural abilities can't be maintained while the creature is in gaseous form. I don't know whether that means the Domination is completely gone, or just in abeyance while the vampire is gaseous. Finally, does Break Enchantment get rid of vampiric domination?

Of course, if V's around, then it's a matter of getting Malack to zero HP, confining the gas in some manner, getting that confinement outside, dispelling the daylight protection, and letting the Sun handle the rest. Easy, right?

[DarkDain]

Anyone mention Haley's dad and uncle ? Last we saw them, they were in the desert together and he said something about 'knowing a place'. Between the arena and the city, dont know if they were even close enough to run to the pyramid but i wouldnt be surprised if they made an appearance to tip the scales.

[spruce56]

One interesting possibility, for me, would be if Girard shows up in some ghostly form or other, much like Soon did (although obviously not with an army of ghost-martyr paladins). However many family members have been alerted by the failed resurrection attempts have possibly had enough time to come down from their afterlife, to scry on what's going on below.

[137beth]

TPK. So, two groups of identical level 15 (or level anything, as long as it's the same) adventurers are an overwhelming encounter for each other, and any situation where the adventurers don't outnumber their enemies four to one is "adventure-climax level tough," at least.

Not quite. The "50%" refers to the party's chance of victory/defeat. Defeat is not the same as a TPK, since fleeing normally counts as a defeat.

[Rorrik]

I'm going to go with oath-bound-Girard being more likely than Ian and company showing up, but Roy can count on neither. Did he ever even know about Soon's return? I believe he was dead when Hinjo said the paladins were reinforcements, and even that didn't fully reveal what was going on.

Still, the other gates didn't seem to have such defenders, so it's be hard to believe this one could count on them. All the same, Roy's best choice might be to keep exploring looking for some part of the gate defense that is still intact that he can use to his advantage.

[Olinser]

Can someone help me with the Challenge Calculator? (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) I punched in 3 level 15 players (Roy, Elan, Vaarsuvius) against 2 CR 15 monsters (Malack, Durkon) Result suggests it is a very difficult encounter. Have I miscalculated?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Vampire template adds +2 to the CR. So if Durkon was level 15, he is now a CR 17 monster.

Also, even if Malack is CR 15 (which I HIGHLY doubt he's that low - that would only put him at level 13, even lower if, as many suspect, he is in fact a Vampire Lord), don't forget to add the Belkster in there on his side as well - the party has no way of breaking the dominate, Belkar has a pitiful will safe, and Nale has already conclusively demonstrated that ordering Belkar to kill the OOTS does not go counter to his nature (barring character development following Durkon's death in front of him, mind you).

So a CR 17, 15 and 15 puts the encounter at 'Overpowering' for the OOTS.

(And incidentally, a CR of 23 for Xykon (level 21 + 2 for Lich, ABSOLUTE minimum Xykon could be) and 17 for Redcloak puts the encounter at 'Unbeatable', without even factoring in the MiTD)

[KillianHawkeye]

Remember also that Malack's lizardfolk hit dice are worth a +1 to his CR, and that's just assuming he was a normal lizardfolk and not some kind of snake-lizard hybrid.

[EmperorSarda]

Ignoring the +2 to CR, Durkon being a 14th level cleric gets a +7 LA bonus to being a vampire.

Malack is at least 21: 11 (cleric) + 7 (Vampire) + 3 (Lizardfolk LA and extra hitdice).

[Rorrik]

Don't forget to add the Belkster in there on his side as well - the party has no way of breaking the dominate, Belkar has a pitiful will safe, and Nale has already conclusively demonstrated that ordering Belkar to kill the OOTS does not go counter to his nature (barring character development following Durkon's death in front of him, mind you).

Actually, he only showed that Belkar doesn't mind attacking Durkon. I don't think that he likes the rest more than Belkar, but maybe?

[SavageWombat]

Technically speaking being gaseous just makes Malack easy prey for Roy's sword. Gaseous form gives you DR 10/magic, so Roy's sword is going to ignore that completely.

[Psyren]

At best he could force Malack to assume gaseous form for a few turns. At which point Malack would attempt to strike again, probably with something along the lines of his dominate gaze. At which point Roy could try and force Malack into mist form again. But... after a few cycles he'll land a dominate. Especially if he is a vampire lord and can do it while talking.

1) Gaseous Form does not make you immune to damage. In fact, all it gives you is piddly DR that Roy can easily bypass.

2) It also gives you 20ft. move, so unless he flies straight up and stays there, Roy is still going to be chasing and clobbering him.

3) Assuming GF voluntarily is a standard action; thus Malack has to do it on his turn. Roy full-attacking with his starmetal sword could actually one-shot Malack before he gets the chance, especially once he runs out of Harms.

[Mutant Sheep]

Also, Malack is not a vampire lord. He needed spells to protect him from sunlight.

[dps]

But even so, I think OOTS' best option at this point is to destroy the gate. If at all possible, to do so in such a way that the blast destroys the Linear Guild and Team Evil at the same time.


Actually, I don't think Roy can risk deliberately destroying the Gate in a suicidal sacrifice unless he can be sure that the explosion will destroy Team Evil as well--and since he now knows about phylacteries, he'll know that merely destroying Xykon's physical form again isn't enough.

Deliberately destroying the Gate in a way that the Order can survival and be able to regroup at Kraagor's Gate is definately a good option at this point, though. Remember, Roy will expect that he can rendevous with O-Chul and Lien there.

[Leirus]

I do not think the situation is quite so bad. The Linear Guild is not at full power either... Sabine is still banished, and more to the point, Malack is also lost and split from his own party.

In 861 he is locked out of the action before the teleporting, so he does not know that the rest of his team is actually behind him. He seems to be trying to go forward "I shall find my own path around it (the trap door)". Now that he got Durkon he may try to retreat, but I think the most logical action for him would be keep pressing forward to find the rest of his team.

And regardless of what he tries to do, the Ziggurat is a labrynth, so who knows where might he show up next.

SO... I think the more likely encounters are Tarquin/Nale/Zz'Dtri/Kilkil vs Roy/Haley/Elan or the latter vs Malack/Durkon. Not very balanced, but V is also an unknow cipher (where is he? Can he find his way back to the party in time? Has Quarr gone to tell the three ds that their chance is approaching?), and I think that Malack may leave Belkar behind, following Durkon last request. He is still quite lawful, after all.

I believe that a full LG vs the remnants of the OotS is not going to happen, and who knows how Xykon will react to all this people. He could even kill Tarquin, which would be weird.

[KillianHawkeye]

Ignoring the +2 to CR, Durkon being a 14th level cleric gets a +7 LA bonus to being a vampire.

Malack is at least 21: 11 (cleric) + 7 (Vampire) + 3 (Lizardfolk LA and extra hitdice).

First of all, Vampire LA is +8, not +7.

Secondly, if we're discussing how difficult the fight against a pair of vampires will be (with or without dominated Belkar), we need to look at their CR, not their ECL. The CR adjustment for being a vampire is +2.

[Forum Explorer]

Tactically? It'd be best to force a confrontation on Malack and Durkon now. They are both low on spells and Roy can tear through Malack pretty quickly with his starmetal sword. Dispensing Malack to vapor leaves him with a small time limit to find Tarquin who presumably has his coffin on hand. Dispensing Durkon would destroy him as his home soil is on another contienant.

However I doubt that would happen.

I think Durkon will likely tell Malack exactly what is up with the Gates and Xykon's imminent arrival. Assuming he holds some of his old personality he will be reluctant to fight the remainder of the Order. Brokering a truce between the two teams seems to be a decent possibility.

Also with Durkon's information they no longer need Nale so I expect that Tarquin will be killing him soon.

[pendell]

Also with Durkon's information they no longer need Nale so I expect that Tarquin will be killing him soon.


A consummation devoutly to be wished. I'm sick to death of Nale, Sabine, and Thog. Tarquin and Malack are MUCH more interesting and formidable villains.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Forum Explorer]

A consummation devoutly to be wished. I'm sick to death of Nale, Sabine, and Thog. Tarquin and Malack are MUCH more interesting and formidable villains.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Well Thog is dead and Sabine is banished. As far as I know the Drow doesn't particularly have any loyalty to Nale. So I think Nale isn't going to survive this arc.

Incidently I think Belkar will somehow survive. Him dying right after Durkon would lose a lot of impact, and his personal arc isn't 100% completed.

[JSSheridan]

Maybe Haley can rig a booby trap that will blow the gate when someone approaches.

But we don't know what Ian might be doing. Anything Haley can make, Ian can probably disable, and Tarquin could dupe him into it. And we don't know if Geoff has any connection to Tarquin.

But assume that worked, and the OotS makes their best time to the Dwarven capital where they can recruit replacement adventurers and mobilize the Dwarven army.

Xykon is faster than them. He just teleports right to the dungeon and is too far ahead of them to catch.

[Lamech]

Hmm... if Nale dies won't he go straight to hell? And immediately be handed over to the fiends? He might just come back as a ghost... anyway I suspect that what is more likely is that Tarquin simply tells Nale to listen to the damn adults and do what they are told.

[JackRackham]

The OOTS is not completely out of healer as Elan started to focus a bit more on the healing side of bards since Therkla. Won't make up for losing Durkon, heal wise, but still best than relying purely on potions.


Healing, especially Bard healing, is best left for after battle except in the worst emergencies (stabilization, etc). Damage tends to progress more quickly than healing and Bards' healing is very much too little, too late.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Also being able to spontaneously cast Cure spells is extremely powerful.

[Ghosty]

What do either the LG or the Order have that will touch a Gate? Disintegrate from V? Snapping Malack's suspiciously-powerful staff in two? Another self-destruct switch, while perfectly in character for that paranoid Illusionist, would seem repetitive.

Really though I just wanted to point out that I don't think Nale, unfortunately for those of you who can't stand him, is going to die here. Anything that Tarquin and Malack wanted to know from him, they could have extracted while he was still in Bleedingham. In fact, given they're Evil as all get out, Nale would've been begging them for the chance to tell...

So Tarquin had to have another reason for dragging Nale along. I think it's been a tryout, to see if Nale has what it takes to take over. If Tarquin is dissatisfied with Nale's performance---understandable if so---then, and only then, will he let Malack have him. I still think he's going to escape though. He may go through wives like a combine through wheat, but he only has two remaining sons. I don't think he'll allow one of them to die, no matter how annoying the son is, until things get a lot more heated.

Which brings up another question: what does Tarquin want with this Gate anyway? Is it just a MacGuffin to dangle in front of Nale and Elan, to see how they do? Malack, in this last strip, seems to want nothing further to do with the whole thing.

[Rorrik]

With Belkar being able to rejoin the group, Roy will know what we know about Malack and Durkon. Also, if we assume that Malack just takes Durkon back to Bleedingham and gives up on the whole dungeon thing, it makes it Tarquin, Nale, Z, and paralyzed-by-holy-word kobold against Roy, Elan, Haley, and Belkar. Those odds don't look terrible, in the Order's favor if V shows up. I think Roy may be able to work with this situation.

[pendell]

Ah, but Malak never said he was giving up on the dungeon thing. He said he would assist Tarquin, and Durkon would assist him under domination. They will return to Bleedingham after the conclusion of this dungeon crawl.

Which means the order is facing off with the rest of the linear guild minus their healer and two vampires. While I would not heed Malack's advice since we cannot permit them to secure the gate, I would definitely avoid direct confrontation.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[zimmerwald1915]

Can someone help me with the Challenge Calculator? (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) I punched in 3 level 15 players (Roy, Elan, Vaarsuvius) against 2 CR 15 monsters (Malack, Durkon) Result suggests it is a very difficult encounter. Have I miscalculated?

Respectfully,

Brian P.
I think you lowballed Malack's and Durkon's individual CRs. I'd rate the challenges they present thusly (I admit Malack's race and both his and Durkon's cleric levels are speculative and reflect my own biases. Please bear with me.):

Malack CR 5 (yuan-ti halfblood) + 11 (cleric levels) + 2 (vampire template) = 18
Durkon CR 0 (dwarf) + 14 (cleric levels) + 2 (vampire template) = 16

If I set them against a party of three level 15 characters (Belkar, Haley, and Vaarsuvius), one level 14 character (Elan), and one level 13 character (Roy), I get an average party level of 15.1 set against an Encounter Level of 19, which is justly described as "Overpowering" (again, the Order's levels reflect my biases). Removing V does not change anything beyond lowering the Order's average level from 15.1 to 14.4; the encounter is still "Overpowering". I don't feel confident reducing Belkar's apparent level to account for his negative levels, because I don't know how many he gained.

[brujon]

He didn't gain any negative levels, he just had his con drained. Vampire blood sucking drains con, not levels. Part of the joke of the name of the strip is that he's now "running dry (OF BLOOD)". If you ever tried to do physical exertion after blood collection or a blood donation, you'd know you get tired preeeetty damn quickly.

[zimmerwald1915]

He didn't gain any negative levels
Yes he did, in strip 870. See panel 5. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html)

[Olinser]

What do either the LG or the Order have that will touch a Gate? Disintegrate from V? Snapping Malack's suspiciously-powerful staff in two? Another self-destruct switch, while perfectly in character for that paranoid Illusionist, would seem repetitive.
.

I was thinking less 'self destruct switch' and more, 'trap that blows up the Gate if anybody comes within 100 feet of the Gate and doesn't say the password, perform the elaborate secret handshake, walk a specific, convoluted and totally unmarked path towards it, and isn't wearing at least 3 separate articles of purple clothing with a set of undergarments embroidered with the phrase, "Soon Eats Poo And Likes It"'

[SteveDJ]

He didn't gain any negative levels, he just had his con drained. Vampire blood sucking drains con, not levels. Part of the joke of the name of the strip is that he's now "running dry (OF BLOOD)". If you ever tried to do physical exertion after blood collection or a blood donation, you'd know you get tired preeeetty damn quickly.


Yes he did, in strip 870. See panel 5. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html)

I also thought he was drained again in the latest strip 879 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html)- panel 4, drained by V-Durkon ... didn't he?

[SavageWombat]

I see a total of four panels where the black "energy drain" glow surrounds the vampire's hands. Two with Malack, two with Belkar. I don't think we normally assume a single action takes more than one panel.

That's why I count eight negative levels total.