Is the OotS even progressing? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Trixie

2013-03-05, 11:58 AM

And by that, I don't mean the plot. It's just...

Let's see, ever since last time Roy meet Xykon, Roy did exactly nothing. Wasted a lot of time in afterlife, lost a level to resurrection, maybe grabbed enough XP to get that level back. Now, both Durkon and Belkar will lose levels, too, assuming anyone will even ress Belkar or that 3 members of OotS with worst Will saves can wrestle Durkon back from Malack. Haley? Awesome new frost bow, which happens to do nothing at all to Liches. Oops. V? Only hour of forced, unexpected puppetry to Team Hell s/he/it never bothered to tell others about. Elan? As useless as ever.

Now, what about Team Evil? We know Redcloak went from his estimated 15th level at Siege to at least 17th level now, might be well on his way to Epic Cleric. Xykon? He gathered enough XP for plot knows how many Epic items he crafted in meantime, probably gained levels, too. In addition, you know what they say, "linear warriors, quadratic casters". Except, in this case we have warrior that did almost nothing and Epic spellcasters where growth might well be octagonal.

So, is OotS in any way better prepared to fight Xykon than they were at Azure City, or is Roy all tough talk and they actually went backward in relative strength? Isn't the gap growing quickly, instead of shrinking? Maybe Xykon's advice 'stop bothering me and go adventure grinding until you're actually a treat' was wiser course of action than everything Roy ever did? Or am I missing something? :smallconfused:

ThePhantasm

2013-03-05, 12:04 PM

You're right about some things, but I think you are also wrong about some things.

First, re: "wasting his time in the afterlife," Roy actually learned a new move that he seems to plan on using against Xykon.

Second, the Order now has a list of Xykon's capabilities via O-Chul, and that's helpful when it comes to strategizing.

Third, Elan is not as useless as ever. In fact, I'd argue that of all the people in the Order he's shown the most advancement in skills and whatnot. He's still a lovable idiot, but he's getting better.

Raineh Daze

2013-03-05, 12:05 PM

V has also reached the point where she's realised that blasting things is not always the way to go. Not such a good strategy against a far higher-levelled caster that's even better than you at it.

Dagonet

2013-03-05, 12:08 PM

Other than strategy..no they haven't really progressed.

NerdyKris

2013-03-05, 12:09 PM

Roy has a belt of strength, so there's something. We don't know if they've gained back levels, because that's usually not seen on panel anymore. They're also trying to gain allies.

Also, an epic level team vs an epic level lich is a boring battle. Yes, they can't just walk up to Xykon and take him head on. That's what makes it interesting. They aren't just level grinding, they're looking for other ways to gain the upper hand. The more setbacks they have, the more tension about how they're going to fare. Imagine how boring the story would be if say, Darth V's attack on the tower was standard.

To use the Giant's analogy in another thread, I'd rather see Han Solo and Luke Skywalker fighting a losing battle over Starkiller using the force to rip a Star Destroyer in half. (Force Unleashed. Although I LOVED it, it's an entirely different beast than the movies)

Trixie

2013-03-05, 12:33 PM

First, re: "wasting his time in the afterlife," Roy actually learned a new move that he seems to plan on using against Xykon.

The problem with the move is that all recent strips did a lot of damage to idea it can even be used. Look at Durkon/Malack battle - they completely shut down AoOs by casting defensively, Xykon will do it if anything even better. Plus, between Mass Hold Person, Lich Paralysis, Forcecage, and Ghostform, Xykon can shut down about any melee combatant he wants.

Second, the Order now has a list of Xykon's capabilities via O-Chul, and that's helpful when it comes to strategizing.

The list has a lot of gaps for one, plus, they have no idea what scrolls or wands he has. For all we know, it's as useful as list V and Roy could compose in ten minutes asking themselves 'what spells a blasty Lich is likely to use'. All preparation they did is MDW, which, while nice, does nothing to dozen other spells Xykon can use to autowin.

Third, Elan is not as useless as ever. In fact, I'd argue that of all the people in the Order he's shown the most advancement in skills and whatnot. He's still a lovable idiot, but he's getting better.

Going from 1 to 5 might be 500% increase in effectiveness, but I'd argue guy who went from 40 to 42 is still better despite "mere" 2% increase. Mass CLW? At 15th level? Seriously? Is that going to even tickle Xykon?

V has also reached the point where she's realised that blasting things is not always the way to go. Not such a good strategy against a far higher-levelled caster that's even better than you at it.

Well, realization is nice and well but frankly, V has no 'non blasty' things that might affect Lich or way to defeat his magic. Ironically, almost only contribution V can give is still blasting him, ineffective as it will be.

Also, an epic level team vs an epic level lich is a boring battle. Yes, they can't just walk up to Xykon and take him head on. That's what makes it interesting. They aren't just level grinding, they're looking for other ways to gain the upper hand. The more setbacks they have, the more tension about how they're going to fare. Imagine how boring the story would be if say, Darth V's attack on the tower was standard.

My issue is not that they aren't Epic, it's just that Xykon effortlessly won last time, now he is even stronger and OotS appears to have done little to nothing to address this. They didn't even contacted that V's Wizard mentor to have him on standby to help defend the gate, despite knowing Xykon has precise gate location and V considering asking him to deal with lesser threat. Ways? They looked for none.

Setbacks? Uh, going by that way of thinking, OotS would be way more interesting if members all were 1st level. Eh, story needs verisimilitude, hero even remotely capable of tackling the villain, and the only one who seems to prepare for showdown is Team Evil...

Raineh Daze

2013-03-05, 12:38 PM

Well, realization is nice and well but frankly, V has no 'non blasty' things that might affect Lich or way to defeat his magic. Ironically, almost only contribution V can give is still blasting him, ineffective as it will be.

Fortunately, wizards can learn new spells and we are hardly privy to the full contents of V's spell list.

Kish

2013-03-05, 12:54 PM

The last time Roy met Xykon, the Order was an estimated level 7-9. Now, they're an estimated level 14-17. So yes, they're "progressing," not that the complaint makes a lot of sense.

Anyone who is thinking that we'll see the Order's story become about gaining levels until they can defeat Xykon in a perfectly statistically calculated D&D battle is cruising for severe disappointment, and has been since strip #13.

Edit: Oops. Meant "first," not "last," since "first" what was the OP said something about.

DoctorWhooves

2013-03-05, 12:58 PM

The last time Roy met Xykon, the Order was an estimated level 7-9. Now, they're an estimated level 14-17. So yes, they're "progressing," not that the complaint makes a lot of sense.

Anyone who is thinking that we'll see the Order's story become about gaining levels until they can defeat Xykon in a perfectly statistically calculated D&D battle is cruising for severe disappointment, and has been since strip #13.

What.

They were around level 13 last time they fought Xykon.

Now they're 13-15.

They were never 7-9 over the course of the comic.

Kish

2013-03-05, 01:05 PM

I don't know where you're getting that...
but I know it's wrong, wherever it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq6a)

rewinn

2013-03-05, 01:05 PM

...
They were never 7-9 over the course of the comic.
Eh?
If V was above level 9 in the Dungeon of Dorukan, there was a remarkable abscence of 4th level spells . And Level 13 fighters don't flee goblins.

Now they didn't stay that level long; defeating a Lich and blowing up a dungeon has got to be worth levels. But without reading class-and-level geekery, I'd doubt OOTS was in double digits at the start.

Twilight Jack

2013-03-05, 01:06 PM

What.

They were around level 13 last time they fought Xykon.

Now they're 13-15.

They were never 7-9 over the course of the comic.

They were almost certainly level 7-9 during Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, based upon the spells we see from Durkon and Vaarsuvius at that time. If they'd had access to higher level magic, they'd have been using it.

I'd peg them at 11-12 during the battle for Azure City. I'd have to review that section to be certain.

But I agree that 13-15 seems the appropriate level range at the moment. Have we seen any 8th level spells from any of them?

Kish

2013-03-05, 01:08 PM

But I agree that 13-15 seems the appropriate level range at the moment. Have we seen any 8th level spells from any of them?
Power Word Stun, yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html)

Twilight Jack

2013-03-05, 01:11 PM

Power Word Stun, yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html)

There you are, then. Suvie is probably 15th level. No 8th level spells from Durkon (I'm almost certain that there haven't been)? If not, then I'll put him at 14th, and say that everyone else is in the same range.

137beth

2013-03-05, 01:24 PM

The problem with the move is that all recent strips did a lot of damage to idea it can even be used. Look at Durkon/Malack battle - they completely shut down AoOs by casting defensively, Xykon will do it if anything even better. Plus, between Mass Hold Person, Lich Paralysis, Forcecage, and Ghostform, Xykon can shut down about any melee combatant he wants.
Huh? Where the heck are you getting the idea that it can't be used? Oh, and he can hit Xykon in ghostform with the spells he reflects (assuming Xykon doesn't just use negative energy spells).

AstralFire

2013-03-05, 01:27 PM

It's in reference to the notion that a melee does not ever hit an epic-level caster without a massive power imbalance unless the epic-level caster is a shamalamadingdong. And Xykon has proven that when it comes to fighting battles, he is not.

Winter

2013-03-05, 01:30 PM

They are catching up (assuming that Durkula is not "out of the picture" for the final fight). They gain levels, insight in how to be effective (Vaarsuvius learned that "A Team Is Stronger"), and get new houseruled abilities (Roy's Splortch-Caster Feat) or Items (Roy's Artefact Undead-Kill-Sword) faster than Xykon runs away from them. He's progressing much slower and that Redcloak hit level 17 is "an issue" but the power-gap between the Teams is now smaller than it was in the Dungeon of Durokan.

If all comes together in the end, they did gain a lot.

Cleverdan22

2013-03-05, 01:35 PM

As far as I can tell, the way to gauge it is if the comic has been progressing, so have the characters, since they've worked their way steadily from 7-9 to 14-15 throughout the course of the comic.

Also, the only way we've seen Xykon "take them down easy" was fighting Roy one on one, and V one on one. The Order as a whole would be much harder for him to take down.

They still have some progress to make though.

Roland Itiative

2013-03-05, 01:36 PM

If we look from a strictly D&D perspective, there is simply no way Xykon is levelling up faster than the Order. What has Xykon ever fought that had a level comparable to his? Only the members of the Order of the Scribble come to mind, and the last time he won a fight with one of them was before the Order of the Stick even started adventuring (as he technically lost the battle against Soon, and was saved by a Fallenus Paladinis Ex Machina). Redcloak is gaining some levels, but he doesn't fight appropriate encounters quite as often as the Order either, so his advance must be slower (or moved by the rules of plot rather than actual EXP gain, like Crystal keeping up with Haley's level).

Now, analysing a storyline perspective makes more sense here, as Rich has made it clear time and again that this is not strictly a D&D story anymore. And in this regards, the Order is evolving much more than Team Evil, be it with new strategies, skills, items or just plain character development. Meanwhile the evolution of Team Evil is more damaging to themselves (Redcloak's fake phylactery comes to mind) than their enemies. The Order is learning to work as a team, Team Evil is drifting apart as one.

As for Roy's new sword move being useless against a smart, epic level caster. This would be probably true if the story followed combat using D&D rules, but that has been out of the picture since low-to-mid level, unarmed Roy managed to destroy epic level Xykon's body way back in the Dungeon of Dorukan. All that foreshadowing certainly won't end with Xykon going "lol no" on whatever Roy has planned, at least not on the long run.

Barsoom

2013-03-05, 01:39 PM

I think it was proven in the Class & Level Geekery thread that the leveling-up during strip #12 was 8-->9. So when we first see them, they are level 8. The part where they flee from Goblins was obviously done for comical effect, when the comic was still in its gag-a-day stage.

Trixie

2013-03-05, 01:39 PM

The last time Roy met Xykon, the Order was an estimated level 7-9. Now, they're an estimated level 14-17. So yes, they're "progressing," not that the complaint makes a lot of sense.

Wrong. That was very beginning of strip. Azure City, actual last meeting, they were level 13, now, they are ~15 (except Roy).

Anyone who is thinking that we'll see the Order's story become about gaining levels until they can defeat Xykon in a perfectly statistically calculated D&D battle is cruising for severe disappointment, and has been since strip #13.

Can I ask who in this thread (besides you) said they expect or think this?

No one? Oops.

The entire point raised in OP was that OotS are losing ground to Team Evil even despite Xykon doing nothing. They even fail to implement ideas they considered, or prepare for spells they know Xykon has. That's not exactly rocket science or out of character optimizing, it's common sense. All they did is Haley dying her boots and Durkon trying to shut down one way of dozen Xykon can use to end them. They aren't even prepared to take on Nale's group, much less Team Evil.

Where the heck are you getting the idea that it can't be used?

Because, duh, if enemy spell does not give attack of opportunity, it can't be disrupted, move or not. You prepared to use that trick as action as soon as he casts a spell? Simple 5 foot step or quickened dimension door completely shuts that down.

It also can't be disrupted if you're in forcecage twenty feet from the Lich, or if he is ghostforming and laughing at you as you ineffectively swing your sword at him. Again, not optimizing, something that has already happened in comic.

Cleverdan22

2013-03-05, 01:45 PM

To be fair it's pretty easy to misinterpret your OP as only looking at it from a DnD perspective since you're only talking about leveling, here.

The point is, no, they aren't ready to take down Xykon. They aren't supposed to be, yet. They're trying to, and yes, they are progressing, but they aren't actually ready. Chances are they won't be ready until the final showdown, and possibly not even then all the way.

AstralFire

2013-03-05, 01:47 PM

If it makes you feel better, I share your question. It's a bit of frustration for me with this comic at the moment; ever since Azure City they've been scrambling just to maintain themselves, and every victory it looked like they'd achieved (squashing the Linear Guild, stalling Xykon, rise of the elves) is already completely trivialized.

I really liked Elan taking a level in competent, but that was well before the fall of Azure City. Meanwhile, the number of major threats has sharply increased. Unlike you, it's not even a matter of level for me; I just don't actually feel like the Order as it stands has managed to do anything except Vaarsuvius learning he should be a team player (which he has yet to actually employ at this point.)

Scowling Dragon

2013-03-05, 01:48 PM

The story goes in so many unexpected directions every other month that its a maybe thing.

Is Xykon more powerful? Yes. But I actually don't think he will be the final boss.

If it makes you feel better, I share your question. It's a bit of frustration for me with this comic at the moment; ever since Azure City they've been scrambling just to maintain themselves, and every victory it looked like they'd achieved (squashing the Linear Guild, stalling Xykon, rise of the elves) is already completely trivialized.

I really liked Elan taking a level in competent, but that was well before the fall of Azure City. Meanwhile, the number of major threats has sharply increased. Unlike you, it's not even a matter of level for me; I just don't actually feel like the Order as it stands has managed to do anything except Vaarsuvius learning he should be a team player (which he has yet to actually employ at this point.)

Though yeah. Just a REAL victory would be nice for once. They always feel like they are BARELY hanging on until death.

NerdyKris

2013-03-05, 01:49 PM

Wrong. That was very beginning of strip. Azure City, actual last meeting, they were level 13, now, they are ~15 (except Roy).

Only Roy faced Xykon. Alone. In the air. On a zombie dragon that was blasted to pieces.

That can hardly be called an adequate test of their abilities, given that 5 out of 6 members weren't there.

They even fail to implement ideas they considered, or prepare for spells they know Xykon has

An example? Because their plan was to find Girard's group and get their help. When that failed they tried sending to Serini. Not sure what other ideas they've considered or how they haven't prepared for spells. They aren't rich, they can't just buy magical item X to protect against Xykon. They're trying to secure the gates against an epic level caster. A gate they had to find first. Which they have. Now they have to find the exact location. Which they were doing when they were ambushed. I don't see any lack of planning here, I see an unexpected complication.

hamishspence

2013-03-05, 01:56 PM

The problem with the move is that all recent strips did a lot of damage to idea it can even be used. Look at Durkon/Malack battle - they completely shut down AoOs by casting defensively, Xykon will do it if anything even better.

There's a feat in Complete Arcane: Mage Slayer, which makes it impossible for the target to cast defensively if they're in a square you threaten- maybe that's the feat Roy took?

it does require a couple of ranks in the Spellcraft skill though.

AstralFire

2013-03-05, 01:59 PM

In order for Roy's feat to work in a remotely simple manner (it could be a tactical feat), it would have to prevent casting defensively and five-foot steps at the very least. Or grant a charge as an immediate action whenever an enemy within your move range attempts to cast a spell.

Mageslayer itself is not particularly great without a lot of reach and a dimensional anchor.

Trixie

2013-03-05, 02:01 PM

Not sure what other ideas they've considered

Ask Aarindarius for help for one or even tell him what is going on and to periodically check on them or to give them advice how to kill a Lich?

If all comes together in the end, they did gain a lot.

They did gain a lot, but Redcloak going from 8th to 9th level spells is much greater deal than Durkon/Varsuuvius going from 6th to 8th. Non-linear spellcaster growth alone keeps them falling behind.

As far as I can tell, the way to gauge it is if the comic has been progressing, so have the characters, since they've worked their way steadily from 7-9 to 14-15 throughout the course of the comic.

Also, the only way we've seen Xykon "take them down easy" was fighting Roy one on one, and V one on one. The Order as a whole would be much harder for him to take down.

Much harder?

Well, Order as a whole couldn't even attempt to defeat Tarquin. Xykon is far more dangerous opponent, and can't even be tackled by whole Order. Unlike Tarquin fight, Elan and Haley literally can't harm the Lich, while Belkar will probably fail first Will save Xykon or Redcloak throws at him so only half of OotS can even attack.

If we look from a strictly D&D perspective, there is simply no way Xykon is levelling up faster than the Order. What has Xykon ever fought that had a level comparable to his? Only the members of the Order of the Scribble come to mind, and the last time he won a fight with one of them was before the Order of the Stick even started adventuring (as he technically lost the battle against Soon, and was saved by a Fallenus Paladinis Ex Machina). Redcloak is gaining some levels, but he doesn't fight appropriate encounters quite as often as the Order either, so his advance must be slower (or moved by the rules of plot rather than actual EXP gain, like Crystal keeping up with Haley's level).

I don't know if Xykon and co gain XP by battling Epic encounters or by author fiat, the point is, they seem to have progressed much farther than OotS did in last half year, despite inactivity. When was last strip you can reliably say someone from OotS did anything warranting XP? Maybe Roy vs Thog, and then long nothing.

Now, analysing a storyline perspective makes more sense here, as Rich has made it clear time and again that this is not strictly a D&D story anymore. And in this regards, the Order is evolving much more than Team Evil, be it with new strategies, skills, items or just plain character development. Meanwhile the evolution of Team Evil is more damaging to themselves (Redcloak's fake phylactery comes to mind) than their enemies. The Order is learning to work as a team, Team Evil is drifting apart as one.

Yes, they are evolving, but... Is the evolution even working? OotS vs Tarquin didn't exactly show us anything OotS didn't already have/did at Azure City, except for odd 8th level spell. I really wish to see this evolution, as I love intelligent, clever characters and the ideas they come up with, but so far, Roy and V failed to deliver anything.

Team Evil is drifting apart, yes, but Redcloak invested into the cause so much recently there is literally nothing left that can happen to make him reconsider leaving Team Evil. The only thing that happened is that new, even more effective Xykon isn't as invulnerable as he thinks due to swap, but it will only matter if OotS can somehow defeat him.

As for Roy's new sword move being useless against a smart, epic level caster. This would be probably true if the story followed combat using D&D rules, but that has been out of the picture since low-to-mid level, unarmed Roy managed to destroy epic level Xykon's body way back in the Dungeon of Dorukan. All that foreshadowing certainly won't end with Xykon going "lol no" on whatever Roy has planned, at least not on the long run.

Possibly, but for that, OotS would require 5 more books or last book showcasing either time skip or really dramatic picking up the pace of OotS growth. Remember, as they go up a level, the amount of sources where they can gain XP is quickly decreasing, too, and OotS can't count on plot XP that much.

EmperorSarda

2013-03-05, 02:07 PM

Oots has gained levels, and they have matured and changed in terms of character levels.

However, what needs to be realized is that the enemies they face are not always of an equivalent level. Xykon has been epic level, Redcloak is almost epic level, not to mention that Malack (Assuming he is just a snake variant lizardfolk and not something much more powerful) has an ecl of at least 22 (11 cleric + 9 la vampire + 2 la lizardfolk +1 lizardfolk hd), which means Tarquin is probably of higher level.

So its not that the Order of the Stick is not progressing; the main fights they get into are against superior combatants. Not that it is a bad thing; it is cool to know that the evil or their enemies don't level up with them but have been there before; that they try their best at these superior combatants.

We just need to keep that in mind when it comes to these sorts of challenges.

Kish

2013-03-05, 02:09 PM

Oops, my mistake. I meant to say the party was levels 7-9 during their first battle with Xykon, not their last.

NerdyKris

2013-03-05, 02:23 PM

Possibly, but for that, OotS would require 5 more books or last book showcasing either time skip or really dramatic picking up the pace of OotS growth. Remember, as they go up a level, the amount of sources where they can gain XP is quickly decreasing, too, and OotS can't count on plot XP that much.

Why? Why would you assume the final battle will come down to plain old fisticuffs? For starters, they've already sent O'Chul and Lien, formidable fighters on their own, up ahead to the last gate. There's the question of Serini's whereabouts. There's the (spoilers for SOD)

Gem holding Lirian and Dorukon's souls.

There's the true nature of the Snarl and the Rifts, and what's really inside them. There's the fact that the Elves are currently getting involved. The Dwarves are probably going to get involved. There's a chance Tarquin might HELP the Order when the real threat is known. He has a whole team of high level baddies outside the Linear Guild. There's the fact that Redcloak is actively working against Xykon. You can't assume they're going to be on the same side in some "final battle".

This is a story, not a game. Levels and abilities are NOT going to be deciding the fights. The plot, characters, and who's around to help ARE.

Trixie

2013-03-05, 02:27 PM

So its not that the Order of the Stick is not progressing; the main fights they get into are against superior combatants. Not that it is a bad thing; it is cool to know that the evil or their enemies don't level up with them but have been there before; that they try their best at these superior combatants.

Ok, I get that part. Superior combatants, fine, I like wit triumphing over sheer force as much as everyone else. Problem is, we are told Roy and V are quite intelligent. Despite this, their plan seems to be 'let's trundle our way to the Gate, and it will somehow solve all our problems'. Yes, they might have expected to get help from Girard, but when they see he is uncooperative, they don't change their course. Heck, when they see he is dead, they still don't stop to reconsider their actions and maybe get an ally someplace else.

It's as if they had no plan at all - lets suppose they find the Gate. What then? Roy has nothing that would keep it from Tarquin, much less Xykon, in fact, he is risking helping Team Evil by having Haley disarm all traps while Xykon laughs as he is scrying them from TiVo. Is that really best we can expect from protagonist? I don't want to see munchkins at play, but ever since Roy let crazy lady murder old guy with cat OotS position had been deteriorating rapidly with no attempts of reversal...

BTW, that FAQ someone cited? On top is the date of its last update. Almost exactly 8 years ago. That might be hint it's not very good source.

Winged789

2013-03-05, 02:28 PM

I think you are looking at this whole thing the wrong way. The OotS will never be able to out level or optimize enough to beat Xykon, and a lack of effort do do so is not a strictly negative thing if they are makeing attempts to "win" in other ways.

If the azure city has taught us anything it is that A) numbers and organisation matter, and that B) already epic combatants like Soon are the best equipped to actually take Xykon in a fight. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html

In addition to this, the battle between darth V and Xy has demonstrated that the aid of non-epic characters in a fight between epic levelers can also matter in a big way. Xy practically says so himself when he starts "taking tactical advice from my lackeys"
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html

So given what the party have going for them they are trying top get to the gates first in an effort to tip the scales in favor of the defenders that already exist there as much as possible. Leveling enough to beat Xy and his inner circle is not a reasonable plan, arming a Soon-like entity with knowledge helping him or her prep for battle and doing what you can to make sure team evil are a step behind rather than a step ahead of your plans is.

Anyway the OotS may just get lucky, after all in the first battle the party had with Xy they actually blew him the hell up by muscling him into a gate. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html

Xelbiuj

2013-03-05, 02:37 PM

They've been struggling to keep their heads above water for a while now, every once in a while they take a breath (to keep with the metaphor) and regroup, rest, get a moment to recollect themselves and be a team again.

It's a pretty painful read when each story arc can take years* to get through. Traditional hero convention doesn't work as well when something bad happens, 2 weeks go by, it gets worse, then it's 3 months (at least) before there's any payoff.

Reverent-One

2013-03-05, 02:39 PM

Ok, I get that part. Superior combatants, fine, I like wit triumphing over sheer force as much as everyone else. Problem is, we are told Roy and V are quite intelligent. Despite this, their plan seems to be 'let's trundle our way to the Gate, and it will somehow solve all our problems'. Yes, they might have expected to get help from Girard, but when they see he is uncooperative, they don't change their course. Heck, when they see he is dead, they still don't stop to reconsider their actions and maybe get an ally someplace else.

It's as if they had no plan at all - lets suppose they find the Gate. What then? Roy has nothing that would keep it from Tarquin, much less Xykon, in fact, he is risking helping Team Evil by having Haley disarm all traps while Xykon laughs as he is scrying them from TiVo. Is that really best we can expect from protagonist? I don't want to see munchkins at play, but ever since Roy let crazy lady murder old guy with cat OotS position had been deteriorating rapidly with no attempts of reversal...

How much time have they had to make a new plan since discovering Girard and crew are gone and unable/unwilling to help? None due to the Linear Guild's attack. Moreover, they both had a plan to help keep Tarquin from getting the gate and are aware they aren't going to able to stop Xykon themselves. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html)

EmperorSarda

2013-03-05, 02:40 PM

Despite this, their plan seems to be 'let's trundle our way to the Gate, and it will somehow solve all our problems'.

Actually their plan was, "lets find the gate and warn its protectors of Xykon so they are more prepared and are not caught off guard.

Yes, they might have expected to get help from Girard, but when they see he is uncooperative, they don't change their course. Heck, when they see he is dead, they still don't stop to reconsider their actions and maybe get an ally someplace else.

What else are they supposed to do? They are on a different continent with no allies. A couple of the paladins are headed north to warn the defenders of the last gate. No response from Sending to Girard could mean many things.

And by the time they find out Girard is dead, the Linear Guild is right outside. They are days from any city. What ally are they supposed to find?

It's as if they had no plan at all - lets suppose they find the Gate. What then? Roy has nothing that would keep it from Tarquin, much less Xykon, in fact, he is risking helping Team Evil by having Haley disarm all traps while Xykon laughs as he is scrying them from TiVo.
You're right, its almost as if Roy and the others went to the pyramid expecting find allies that could help them defend the gate.

Also, in terms of severity, Tarquin getting the gate doesn't mean a thing because he cannot use it. There is no chance for him to get the ritual from Xykon. And that wall of traps would maybe only hinder Xykon for a couple of minutes.

Is that really best we can expect from protagonist? I don't want to see munchkins at play, but ever since Roy let crazy lady murder old guy with cat OotS position had been deteriorating rapidly with no attempts of reversal...

Cause Miko killing the crazy old guy is Roy's fault? That fight and this fight they are horribly outmatched. They do what they can, and sometimes (like in the fight in the hall with the Holy Word) they perform admirably. Othertimes, they don't.

What would you do different? What can you do different? It's almost as if you are wishing it was an entirely different setting where they fight a gate defended at full strength and the protagonist has unlimited resources.

ti'esar

2013-03-05, 02:42 PM

BTW, that FAQ someone cited? On top is the date of its last update. Almost exactly 8 years ago. That might be hint it's not very good source.

That's the point - it's the level range the Order was supposed to be back then.

But yeah, I think this is a bit besides the point anyway. Despite Roy's beliefs, I think the narrative has set Xykon up as a villain who can't be defeated by normal means since SoD at least. No amount of level-grinding is going to take the Order to a point where they can beat him in a stand-up fight.

hamishspence

2013-03-05, 02:44 PM

Cause Miko killing the crazy old guy is Roy's fault?

Eugene blamed him: "You stand there twiddling your thumbs while he (Shojo) gets chopped in two".

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html

But Eugene may be somewhat irrational on the subject.

Snails

2013-03-05, 02:50 PM

Dwy

2013-03-05, 02:53 PM

NerdyKris

2013-03-05, 02:56 PM

Start of Darkness spoiler:

Accounting for a full Team Evil is not exactly wise. RC's days are numbered, with his initial betrayal of Xykon's trust, and his more recent with the phylactery... Whichever is discovered first will get him eaten.

Assuming Xykon moves first. What's to stop Redcloak from moving against Xykon first? (besides that spoiler) And would the MitD continue helping Xykon in a straight up fight against Ochul? There was a whole lot of "Deep down you're good" going on wtih him and Ochul. And not in the "Maybe Thog is really neutral" way. In the "We haven't seen him really do anything evil on purpose ever" way.

Roland Itiative

2013-03-05, 03:16 PM

I don't know if Xykon and co gain XP by battling Epic encounters or by author fiat, the point is, they seem to have progressed much farther than OotS did in last half year, despite inactivity. When was last strip you can reliably say someone from OotS did anything warranting XP? Maybe Roy vs Thog, and then long nothing.
They just had a very successful encounter against the Linear Guild. Sure, Tarquin and co. retreated rather than get killed/captured, but a victory is a victory. Plus, the fight against Thog (and the rest of the Linear Guild) was not that long ago, and the whole Empire of Blood arc would probably net a fair amount of roleplay EXP to the Order.

On the other hand, I don't see all this "progress" you claim Team Evil has had (other than the level Redcloak gained, probably during the Azure City siege). Xykon, specifically, seems to be on the exact same place, power-wise, as he was back in the Dungeon of Dorukan. Sure, he has a nifty dungeon on the Astral Plane now, but that hardly counts as personal power, specially since the phylactery that is being guarded there is a fake.

Yes, they are evolving, but... Is the evolution even working? OotS vs Tarquin didn't exactly show us anything OotS didn't already have/did at Azure City, except for odd 8th level spell. I really wish to see this evolution, as I love intelligent, clever characters and the ideas they come up with, but so far, Roy and V failed to deliver anything.
It showed us the Order at its most effective point yet. So effective, in fact, that they were surprised they didn't have to use their fall back plan.

It seems the current events with Malack and Durkon made everyone forget that the Order forced all of the other members of the Linear Guild to retreat in a spectacular way.

Will this be enough to beat Xykon? Hell no, but they are clearly improving.

Team Evil is drifting apart, yes, but Redcloak invested into the cause so much recently there is literally nothing left that can happen to make him reconsider leaving Team Evil. The only thing that happened is that new, even more effective Xykon isn't as invulnerable as he thinks due to swap, but it will only matter if OotS can somehow defeat him.
Redcloak's inability to leave Team Evil doesn't preclude more in-fighting from occurring, be it started by Redcloak himself or Xykon. And any in-fighting is detrimental to their team.

They already lost Tsukiko, who while not nearly as strong as Xykon or Redcloak, was still a valuable enough asset to their team, if only for her ability to bring more undead under their collective control.

Possibly, but for that, OotS would require 5 more books or last book showcasing either time skip or really dramatic picking up the pace of OotS growth. Remember, as they go up a level, the amount of sources where they can gain XP is quickly decreasing, too, and OotS can't count on plot XP that much.
I don't think so. The final battle between the Order and Team Evil doesn't have to be balanced, as per D&D rules. The Order might very well "lucky out" again (like they did back in the Dungeon of Dorukan, where they managed to completely defeat an epic lich, while being lower than level 10 themselves), they might use strategic superiority to cope with their firepower inferiority, or they might use the number advantage, by gathering lots of allies, or anything else Rich may come up with.

Occasional Sage

2013-03-05, 03:23 PM

There's a feat in Complete Arcane: Mage Slayer, which makes it impossible for the target to cast defensively if they're in a square you threaten- maybe that's the feat Roy took?

it does require a couple of ranks in the Spellcraft skill though.

It's a shame he didn't grow up around magic, then.

Psyren

2013-03-05, 03:32 PM

Ask Aarindarius for help for one or even tell him what is going on and to periodically check on them or to give them advice how to kill a Lich?

I agree that Aarindarius' non-involvement should be better explained (perhaps he can't be reached by Sending for some reason) but I think it's premature to assume the Order hasn't already exhausted every external resource they have. But even if we got a handwave like we did with Durkon's Commune it wouldn't really change the Order's situation much.

Sir_Leorik

2013-03-05, 03:35 PM

Let's see, ever since last time Roy meet Xykon, Roy did exactly nothing. Wasted a lot of time in afterlife, lost a level to resurrection, maybe grabbed enough XP to get that level back. Now, both Durkon and Belkar will lose levels, too, assuming anyone will even ress Belkar or that 3 members of OotS with worst Will saves can wrestle Durkon back from Malack. Haley? Awesome new frost bow, which happens to do nothing at all to Liches. Oops. V? Only hour of forced, unexpected puppetry to Team Hell s/he/it never bothered to tell others about. Elan? As useless as ever.

Roy did the following while on the Cloud and/or Mt. Celestia:

1) Saw his mother and little brother for the first time since they'd died.

2) Met his grandfather for the first time ever.

3) Learned a new sword move to use against spellcasters from his grandfather.

4) Forged an alliance with Roy's Archon.

5) Met E. Gary Gygax and gushed like a fanboy.

6) Played AD&D 1E with Roy's Archon.

7) Told off his father.

8) Fought a party of Evil adventurers.

9) Built a castle out of bricks with his brother.

10) Went fishing.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy those encounters, but it's a little something I like to call "roleplaying". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0243.html)

TheYell

2013-03-05, 03:36 PM

Actually their plan was, "lets find the gate and warn its protectors of Xykon so they are more prepared and are not caught off guard.

So true.

This is not a Hollywood story arc. Hollywood would have kept it about restoring the Azure City without traveling across the globe.

4 nations offered to help the Azurite refugees flee, but not to retake "Gobbotopia", because they refuse to war on the lich.

The lich has left the building. -Xykon- may end up alone in the Western Continent with only the resources he brought with him.

You kids are spoiled...IN MY DAY we had to wait YEARS to find out how a one-handed Luke Skywalker got back into the galaxy without Han Solo or a girlfriend. And we were damn glad to wait!

Trixie

2013-03-05, 07:27 PM

People spoke here several times about Roy defeating Xykon in first book - but didn't Rich said later it was early, not very good idea and he wished to do it differently, or not at all, as it caused him a lot of problems, or do I remember wrong? :smallconfused:

There's a feat in Complete Arcane: Mage Slayer, which makes it impossible for the target to cast defensively if they're in a square you threaten- maybe that's the feat Roy took?

it does require a couple of ranks in the Spellcraft skill though.

Ok. He does that, what will he do if Xykon paralyzes him in response? It worked on Ochul, why it won't work on Roy? The only trump card Roy has is MDW, plus counting on Xykon's failed skill rolls. He knows epic Paladin with a lot better defence than Roy has failed at killing Xykon, but there is no attempt to improve on this, just rehash of Soon's plan but with resources of non-epic party.

Xykon, specifically, seems to be on the exact same place, power-wise, as he was back in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

Xykon said he was crafting Epic and other magic items last six months non-stop 8 hours a day. In that amount of time, paranoid Epic spellcaster can make stuff protecting him from virtually anything.

No amount of level-grinding is going to take the Order to a point where they can beat him in a stand-up fight.

Agreed. Never expected them to. But as I said, they don't seem to rectify it at all. No allies, no intel, no power amassing, no nothing.

It seems the current events with Malack and Durkon made everyone forget that the Order forced all of the other members of the Linear Guild to retreat in a spectacular way.

The order gave their best shot, splitting them and debuffing Nale/Sabine in debilitating way - and all it did was Tarquin choosing to regroup instead of pressing fight, precisely so he can drive OotS deeper to find the prize for him. He took on all of them before, he could easily taken them again as they overextended in that ambush, he just choose not to engage.

How much time have they had to make a new plan since discovering Girard and crew are gone and unable/unwilling to help? None due to the Linear Guild's attack. Moreover, they both had a plan to help keep Tarquin from getting the gate and are aware they aren't going to able to stop Xykon themselves.

They knew he is unwilling to help before EoB arc. Ok, I give you they at least had idea what to do once they stumble into the Gate, but it still seems to be attempt at tough talk. Yes, Durkon can summon a few Devas, but they know angelic forces Dorukan and Soon left in defence of their gates both failed, and both were much stronger than just six weak (for Xykon) opponents.

My issue is with that path of least resistance, there is nothing ingenious or brilliant in 'find gate, camp there, ignore allies, make no backup plans save for Elan's joke one'.

Actually their plan was, "lets find the gate and warn its protectors of Xykon so they are more prepared and are not caught off guard.

Okay. But that seems to be the only plan they have; Roy doesn't seem to have Plan B in case protectors turn out to be unreasonable or not there at all. He knows at least one other guardian died out of old age, yet does nothing.

What else are they supposed to do? They are on a different continent with no allies. A couple of the paladins are headed north to warn the defenders of the last gate. No response from Sending to Girard could mean many things.

They all seem to have many contacts they can call "in the background" if not to fight Xykon then to warn other good guys what is going on and maybe get a helping hand or two. V's Master, Durkon's High Priest, Roy's instructors, Haley's father, these are all high level characters and not one was contacted and warned using just one off day supply of spells Order has.

And by the time they find out Girard is dead, the Linear Guild is right outside. They are days from any city. What ally are they supposed to find?

Thing is, they never even tried. They have Hinjo to help, they know Xykon can't go to Kragor's gate yet, they know Serini is dead - what they do?

Hinjo goes to remote wasteland to check on dungeon that might well be outside his ability to handle instead of using his position to acquire some allies instead. Or hell, even put a note on tavern door he needs good high level party. Even Belkar could do that :smalltongue:

You're right, its almost as if Roy and the others went to the pyramid expecting find allies that could help them defend the gate.

And never even prepared for something going wrong, even despite things going wrong before they went to Empire of Blood.

Also, in terms of severity, Tarquin getting the gate doesn't mean a thing because he cannot use it. There is no chance for him to get the ritual from Xykon. And that wall of traps would maybe only hinder Xykon for a couple of minutes.

Tarquin and Nale are puppets in hands of Team Hell. Once they get the Gate, army of archdevils might be called in by Sabine. V knows it, yet sadly, no one else does.

Cause Miko killing the crazy old guy is Roy's fault? That fight and this fight they are horribly outmatched. They do what they can, and sometimes (like in the fight in the hall with the Holy Word) they perform admirably. Othertimes, they don't.

Except, they didn't fight. Roy just said 'let's not intervene when out best and only ally is pushed around with someone with sword drawn that visibly stopped listening to her superior standing next to her'. He had a lot of options, decided to not act on any of them despite being sole person in the room being any match to Miko.

What would you do different? What can you do different? It's almost as if you are wishing it was an entirely different setting where they fight a gate defended at full strength and the protagonist has unlimited resources.

Nope, all I wish is Roy having plan B. He doesn't seem to have even good plan A.

Roy did the following while on the Cloud and/or Mt. Celestia:

[snip

10) Went fishing.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy those encounters, but it's a little something I like to call "roleplaying". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0243.html)

Siiigh :smallsigh:

Ok, he fished. Can you say how six months of inactivity, outside of filling it with RP, help him with task at hand? Yes, he now has excuse to take anti-mage feat. That's it. He could have been at Girard's gate half a year earlier instead, Miko would still blow up their Gate had Roy had better plan of attacking Xykon than 'jump on dragon alone and ignore my attacks aren't even phasing him'.

Snails

2013-03-05, 08:01 PM

Ok. He does that, what will he do if Xykon paralyzes him in response? It worked on Ochul, why it won't work on Roy? The only trump card Roy has is MDW, plus counting on Xykon's failed skill rolls. He knows epic Paladin with a lot better defence than Roy has failed at killing Xykon, but there is no attempt to improve on this, just rehash of Soon's plan but with resources of non-epic party.

You seem to have a lot of expectations that I do not think are justified.

If he is too low level for his team to take on Xykon directly, he needs to gather more resources. Attempting to contact Clan Draketooth was an excellent start.

All of about an hour ago, he found out that Clan Draketooth has been annihilated. At this point he can either abandon the Gate to Tarquin or not. (He does not know that Xykon will soon be on the move.) Tarquin is more than competent enough to quickly seize an undefended Gate.

So what are you suggesting? He abandon this Gate and wander off to the elves and hope they can help?

EmperorSarda

2013-03-05, 08:06 PM

People spoke here several times about Roy defeating Xykon in first book - but didn't Rich said later it was early, not very good idea and he wished to do it differently, or not at all, as it caused him a lot of problems, or do I remember wrong? :smallconfused:[quote]

I have never heard that myself.

[quote]Yes, Durkon can summon a few Devas, but they know angelic forces Dorukan and Soon left in defence of their gates both failed

The defenses did not fail. Had Xykon killed the Order of the Stick right then and there, he still would not be able to get to the gate to cast the ritual. And save for one crazy fallen paladin, the Azure City Gate defenses would have stopped Xykon too. Had this gate's defenses been fully powered, surely they would tried Xykon sorely.

Okay. But that seems to be the only plan they have; Roy doesn't seem to have Plan B in case protectors turn out to be unreasonable or not there at all. He knows at least one other guardian died out of old age, yet does nothing.
Nothing except seek out the Gate's protectors to try and warn them. What is he supposed to do, bring an army with him?

They all seem to have many contacts they can call "in the background" if not to fight Xykon then to warn other good guys what is going on and maybe get a helping hand or two. V's Master, Durkon's High Priest, Roy's instructors, Haley's father, these are all high level characters and not one was contacted and warned using just one off day supply of spells Order has.
Durkon's high priest is a continent away. V's master may or may not have Greater Teleport. Haley's Father? Maybe. But I doubt Roy or Haley would want to send to him to ask him to help in a fight. Roy's instructors, again on a different continent. And who knows how strong they are. For all we know, they are 10th level fighters.
Again, for time constraints, it isn't like they can send to anyone they might have known to come journey thousands of miles to protect something that cannot properly be explained in a few sendings. For all we know, doing that could spawn another side trying to get at the gates.

Thing is, they never even tried. They have Hinjo to help, they know Xykon can't go to Kragor's gate yet, they know Serini is dead - what they do? That's a bright idea, ask the Paladin to forsake his oaths and duties to his people as they strive to rebuild.
Also, while Serini is most likely dead they and we do not know that for sure.

Hinjo goes to remote wasteland to check on dungeon that might well be outside his ability to handle instead of using his position to acquire some allies instead. Or hell, even put a note on tavern door he needs good high level party. Even Belkar could do that :smalltongue:
A tavern? You mean in the abandoned Elven fortifications? Or do you mean for Hinjo to try and rouse mid to high level characters, many in cahoots with scheming nobles, to go and help Roy and his party; who are unpopular in many eyes?

And never even prepared for something going wrong, even despite things going wrong before they went to Empire of Blood.
So they're supposed to be prepared for every eventuality? Including a wizard who sells his souls and accidentally kills all the defenders?

Tarquin and Nale are puppets in hands of Team Hell. Once they get the Gate, army of archdevils might be called in by Sabine. V knows it, yet sadly, no one else does.
Since when does V know of the archdevil's plans for the gates?

Nope, all I wish is Roy having plan B. He doesn't seem to have even good plan A.
Aside from listing people that Roy may or may not have been able to call in to help come defend the gate, there isn't much that could be planned for. They had a set of bad coordinates for the gate, and no knowledge of how the actual gate was defended. Bringing an army of friends and allies to help defend the gate because the Draketooths are paranoid and would see an invasion force marching on them.

That's it. He could have been at Girard's gate half a year earlier instead, Miko would still blow up their Gate had Roy had better plan of attacking Xykon than 'jump on dragon alone and ignore my attacks aren't even phasing him'.
But then that wouldn't be Order of the Stick. It'd be an entirely different story altogether. And Roy's attacks were hurting him.

Dr.Epic

2013-03-05, 08:31 PM

Psyren

2013-03-05, 08:47 PM

Belkar<3

2013-03-05, 09:17 PM

Nope, all I wish is Roy having plan B. He doesn't seem to have even good plan A.

Didn't they already expend plan Z?:smallconfused:

Rogar Demonblud

2013-03-05, 09:44 PM

I think we're up to Plan QQ at this point.

Also, Trixie, remember that the Giant plays his cards so close to the vest they're actually inside his shirt.

The Giant

2013-03-06, 12:27 AM

I think the complaints are getting more ridiculous after every comic I post.

If you think the amount of XP gained, feats selected, spells known, and magic items found will have more impact on the climax of the story than the lessons learned, personal flaws overcome, and bonds forged, then what's happening here? Isn't what you think it is.

You should try playing D&D, I hear it's pretty good at delivering a steady stream of progress after ever dozen or so encounters. But as I've said before, "Ceci n'est pas une partie de Donjons et Dragons."

Gurgeh

2013-03-06, 12:58 AM

I'd intended to chime in with a nitpick about the assertion that a quickened Dimension Door would let you negate somebody's attempt to hit you in melee (it can't in any useful fashion as Dimension Door ends your turn by RAW whether or not you Quicken it) but seeing the pile-up here I feel it's a pretty pointless quibble.

This isn't a D&D campaign, it's a story. The D&D rules haven't been the primary or even the secondary focus of the story for a very long time now - if they had then I'm sure the story would have ended about halfway through Start of Darkness with Xykon casting Wish or setting the world on fire with an infinite-gate-loop exploit or the like.

SavageWombat

2013-03-06, 01:34 AM

Winter

2013-03-06, 02:58 AM

I actually think there has never been such a steep step in increase of power of the Order than in the current strips. The only step that was higher was Vaarusivus' Soul Splice, but that was very limited in time.

Assuming Durkula will stay Durkula until the end (or at least for the next climax) and re-join the Order (this is usually what happens), his new template is a massive asset against Team Evil (I'm not speaking about the damage it might do to Durkon's Soul). He's immune to a lot of Fort-save-stuff, increased his melee-ability by roughly a factor of two (fast healing, DR etc), etc.
It is also not that hard to "free" Durkula. All the Order needs to accomplish is to kill Malack, something they can accomplish in one round if two or three of them put their minds to that task.

EmperorSarda

2013-03-06, 04:14 AM

I think the complaints are getting more ridiculous after every comic I post.

That just means that those with the ridiculous complaints have nothing to really critique and thus have to match the epicness of your story with ridiculousness.

Bulldog Psion

2013-03-06, 04:24 AM

All right, I'm worthless moron who doesn't deserve to read your magnificent comic, Mr. Burlew.

My apologies.

Elesthor

2013-03-06, 04:27 AM

Well plot isn't everything. A really important aspect that many writers seem to forget is character development. Fortunatelly Rich got it right!

The Succubus

2013-03-06, 04:36 AM

Ok, I get that part. Superior combatants, fine, I like wit triumphing over sheer force as much as everyone else. Problem is, we are told Roy and V are quite intelligent. Despite this, their plan seems to be 'let's trundle our way to the Gate, and it will somehow solve all our problems'. Yes, they might have expected to get help from Girard, but when they see he is uncooperative, they don't change their course. Heck, when they see he is dead, they still don't stop to reconsider their actions and maybe get an ally someplace else.

The thing is, they don't really have much choice. The Order knows that Xykon will be going for Girrad's Gate and they also know that the Azure Gate is destroyed. From that they assumed that Xykon would be making a beeline for Girrad's Gate. So while it is possible they could have spent time running around getting alies, weapons, scrolls, etc, they still don't know when Xykon is due to show up.

That's why they rushed to get there - they don't know how long The Ritual takes to cast and as Girrad's Gate was likely to be a highly defensive place, it was critical that they had that advantage rather than the epic level lich.

theNater

2013-03-06, 06:15 AM

The order gave their best shot, splitting them and debuffing Nale/Sabine in debilitating way - and all it did was Tarquin choosing to regroup instead of pressing fight, precisely so he can drive OotS deeper to find the prize for him. He took on all of them before, he could easily taken them again as they overextended in that ambush, he just choose not to engage.
I think you're misreading that, and missing an important message as a result. Remember, Tarquin was hoping that Zz'dtri would teleport them all the way back to Bleedingham, and finds Roy "a wonderful challenge". This isn't the sound of a man who could have won but decided to put it off, this is the sound of a man who likes a challenging fight, but hasn't had a foe who can endanger him for years.

So what makes this fight different from the first one, where he was sufficiently unconcerned that he was willing to goof around? There were a few things, but the most important one on a narrative level is that in the first fight, the Order was trying to fight Thog. You'll note that the melee attackers spend a lot of time whiffing, which makes sense if they're trying to power attack their way through DR and a massive HP pool, but instead facing high AC, defensive feats, and parries. Durkon uses Hold Person, which is a great anti-Thog spell, but a wasted action in this fight. And so on.

In the second fight, the first thing they do is use his arrow-catching against him. They have a strategy prepared for dealing specifically with his group, and it sends them packing. That's the lesson hiding in these two fights: tuning your fighting style to your opponent massively magnifies your power.

Kish

2013-03-06, 07:25 AM

All right, I'm worthless moron who doesn't deserve to read your magnificent comic, Mr. Burlew.

My apologies.
...This is your first post in this thread. Why are you taking something he said to Trixie personally? Did you post--let's see--"the amount of XP gained, feats selected, spells known, and magic items found will have more impact on the climax of the story than the lessons learned, personal flaws overcome, and bonds forged" somewhere else I didn't see it?

Bulldog Psion

2013-03-06, 07:27 AM

...This is your first post in this thread. Why are you taking something he said to Trixie personally? Did you post--let's see--"the amount of XP gained, feats selected, spells known, and magic items found will have more impact on the climax of the story than the lessons learned, personal flaws overcome, and bonds forged" somewhere else I didn't see it?

I posted and said that the Order was ineffective at achieving their goals thus far, but I liked the story anyway. Then I felt bad that I had posted it, deleted it, and apologized.

zimmerwald1915

2013-03-06, 09:32 AM

If you think the amount of XP gained, feats selected, spells known, and magic items found will have more impact on the climax of the story than the lessons learned, personal flaws overcome, and bonds forged...
Perhaps it's your superb writing that's trained me to think this way, but I'm not seeing the opposition between "the amount of XP gained, feats selected, and spells known" and "the lessons learned, personal flaws overcome, and bonds forged". The juxtaposition seems imposed and artificial to me. The characters' initial builds were informed by their experiences and flaws. Their experiences and flaws were given shape and reinforced by their build choices. Their builds have grown as they have, each informing the other.

...I just realized I'm defending the comic to its author. The mind boggles.

iBear

2013-03-06, 10:43 AM

I can't say I disagree with the OP. Remember Xykon's "power equals power" speech? That's still true.

Roy might have gained some levels, but Xykon (as Roy's nemesis) will remain proportionately powerful. His new sword move means nothing against Overland Flight.

V may have gained some new spells and some perspective on how to use them, but that doesn't change Xyon's spell resistance or saving throws.

Durkon's a vampire now.

Haley can't sneak attack a lich.

Belkar has a cat now.

Elan screws up marginally less, but is still Elan.

The Order is no more prepared to fight Xykon than they were at Azure City. Probably less, now that Durkon's not with them. He busted out like, five new game-changing tricks at that battle. Now he's more focused, so who knows what he's got up his sleeve now.

The Order can't win through combat. They'll have to find a way to eliminate Xykon's ability to control the gates, or a way to close up the rifts so the Snarl is eliminated as a threat. If they'd ran into Team Evil inside the temple, they would have been killed in a stand-up fight.

zimmerwald1915

2013-03-06, 10:50 AM

The Order can't win through combat. They'll have to find a way to eliminate Xykon's ability to control the gates, or a way to close up the rifts so the Snarl is eliminated as a threat. If they'd ran into Team Evil inside the temple, they would have been killed in a stand-up fight.
Problem: even though they don't know all the facts, the Order knows that Xykon is powerful enough on his own, without the Gates, to conquer nations and exterminate whole peoples. He is a threat to the world without the Gates. The Gates only, as far as the Order knows, simply magnify the threat he poses.

Of course, we the readers know Xykon can't access the power of the Gates at all, and that the threat he poses is limited to his personal power and ability to browbeat and manipulate Redcloak. Eliminating the Gates as factors does nothing to Xykon beyond enraging him. It eliminates the Dark One's Plan as a factor, but does not eliminate Redcloak, who is a force in his own right and without the Plan might be convinced to turn against Xykon. The Order does not know any of this, however, and thus cannot plan for it.

nogall

2013-03-06, 10:50 AM

I can't say I disagree with the OP. Remember Xykon's "power equals power" speech? That's still true.

Yes, but you're thinking that power just means raw, physical (or magical) power. I think one of the main points of the comic (and of Giant's post in this thread) is that there might be other kinds of powers as important as - friendship, honor, courage, intelligence, etc.

Otherwise, why bother roleplay? just accumulate as many XP, itens and feats as possible. (yeah, I know the comic is not a game, but I still think what I said is valid)

NerdyKris

2013-03-06, 10:53 AM

The Order can't win through combat. They'll have to find a way to eliminate Xykon's ability to control the gates, or a way to close up the rifts so the Snarl is eliminated as a threat. If they'd ran into Team Evil inside the temple, they would have been killed in a stand-up fight.

Exactly. But assuming a straight fight is how the story will end is the problem. This is a character story, not a videogame. Yes, we can all agree they're underpowered and against impossible odds. That's what makes it a fantastic story. This comic wouldn't have so many readers if it was just "And then Roy got the sword of kicking Lich-butt and killed Xykon forever, and Haley got the bow of awesomeness and shot Red Cloak from a mile away". It has readers because we don't have any idea how they're going to win. We want to see every struggle, every clever plan they implement.

Just look at the battle with the Linear Guild. Roy purposely allowed Belkar to be within range of the Holy Word spell so that he couldn't be charmed like he normally is. That's interesting. And funny. What wouldn't have been interesting would have been "and Belkar has an anti-charm necklace!"

iBear

2013-03-06, 11:14 AM

I think the point I was failing to make is that combat prowess, while it's going to make for a great climactic battle, is not going to decide how this story ends. The OP is saying they're not strong enough to win, several people responded that the Order has gained enough strength to triumph. I agree with the OP that the Order is not strong enough to take Team Evil. So there's no way the fate of existence is going to be settled by fisticuffs.

Kish

2013-03-06, 11:48 AM

Right, but I'm mystified that anyone ever thought it was. The number of people posting some variation on "When do we see how the Order becomes a group of epic-level adventurers for whom Xykon and Redcloak are a level-appropriate challenge?" has always puzzled me.

Psyren

2013-03-06, 01:09 PM

Perhaps it's your superb writing that's trained me to think this way, but I'm not seeing the opposition between "the amount of XP gained, feats selected, and spells known" and "the lessons learned, personal flaws overcome, and bonds forged". The juxtaposition seems imposed and artificial to me. The characters' initial builds were informed by their experiences and flaws. Their experiences and flaws were given shape and reinforced by their build choices. Their builds have grown as they have, each informing the other.

...I just realized I'm defending the comic to its author. The mind boggles.

He's not placing them in opposition though, he's saying one group (character relationships) has superior effect plot-wise to the other (game mechanics.)

zimmerwald1915

2013-03-06, 03:35 PM

He's not placing them in opposition though, he's saying one group (character relationships) has superior effect plot-wise to the other (game mechanics.)
To the extent that the way a character's abilities develop is impacted by their development as a person, I see no reason to separate the two. Rich has written his story so that the two are very closely connected. For instance, Roy dies, learns about his family and his legacy, and gets an idea for a "cool sword move". His [eventual] mechanical development and his character development are inextricably linked, each informing the other in a dialogue. Thus I see no particular need to dismiss characters' abilities as storytelling tools or as a means of analyzing the characters. Nor do I feel the need to declare one superior to the other as a storytelling tool or as a means of analyzing the characters. The characters are not reducible to their stats, to be sure. Neither are they reducible to any single other facet. They are who they are, whole and complete.

The Giant

2013-03-06, 03:50 PM

Perhaps it's your superb writing that's trained me to think this way, but I'm not seeing the opposition between "the amount of XP gained, feats selected, and spells known" and "the lessons learned, personal flaws overcome, and bonds forged". The juxtaposition seems imposed and artificial to me.

Absolutely correct. It is an artificial distinction, but it was the one being made by the OP to begin with. So my comment was to say that, within the context of that false dichotomy, the part that she was worried about is not the part she should be worried about.

If someone wants to make the argument that the Order hasn't had enough character growth to beat Xykon, that would be a wholly different conversation.

zimmerwald1915

2013-03-06, 03:56 PM

Absolutely correct. It is an artificial distinction, but it was the one being made by the OP to begin with. So my comment was to say that, within the context of that false dichotomy, the part that she was worried about is not the part she should be worried about.
I guess I was just hoping for a more thoroughgoing criticism of the false dichotomy. But you have better things to do with your time than have internet arguments, so I'll content myself with what you do post.

If someone wants to make the argument that the Order hasn't had enough character growth to beat Xykon, that would be a wholly different conversation.
I suppose we'll see whether the Order's had enough character growth to beat Xykon, one way or another, within the next thousand or so strips. Perhaps more than once. :smallbiggrin:

Lvl45DM!

2013-03-07, 02:48 AM

Well...
The Order totally hasn't had enough character growth to beat Xykon yet. But since they don't have to beat him yet I don't see how thats a problem.

davidbofinger

2013-04-20, 05:45 AM

Well plot isn't everything. A really important aspect that many writers seem to forget is character development. Fortunatelly Rich got it right!

Caveat: This is just an impression, I haven't researched it properly.

OOTS Phase I was a parody of D&D. OOTS Phase II was mostly character-driven - there was lots of stuff about Belkar and V arguing, the party generally not getting along, Haley liking Elan, etc.. Now we're into OOTS Phase III where the party tends to cooperate and the story is driven more by plot, specifically the opposition of OOTS and TE. Of course there's still lots of character stuff but it isn't driving the story as much as it once was.

My impression is that evolution from character-driven to plot-driven is unusual, that more commonly it goes the other way. Not sure if that applies to webcomics, though.

Mage Paradox

2013-04-20, 06:41 AM

Given that Girard's Gate is probably dimensionally locked to prevent people just porting in, V could technically take Xykon out of action with a single Forcecage spell.

But I agree. V should become an archmage.

zimmerwald1915

2013-04-20, 07:05 AM

Given that Girard's Gate is probably dimensionally locked to prevent people just porting in, V could technically take Xykon out of action with a single Forcecage spell.
Xykon can counterspell V's spell, and Redcloak knows disintegrate.

SaintRidley

2013-04-20, 07:10 AM

But I agree. V should become an archmage.

This seems like a complete non sequitur.

Mage Paradox

2013-04-20, 07:31 AM

Xykon can counterspell V's spell, and Redcloak knows disintegrate.

Assuming Xykon doesn't fail the spellcraft check. And assuming he thinks of it in time, and/or isn't otherwise engaged at the time.

Assuming Redcloak has prepared disintegrate, and assuming he's around to help. It wouldn't be that hard to keep him busy long enough to use another spell that would prevent Redcloak using it (prismatic wall for instance, to cut Redcloak off from Xykon). Disintegrate is a level 7 Destruction spell. Redcloak can't have many of those to bust out per day. Technically I think V (lvl 15) could prepare more forcecages than Redcloak could disinegrates at level 17.

Rogar Demonblud

2013-04-20, 10:59 AM

Since we've already seen that V uses the barred cage form of the spell, I think Xykon might be able to get out with his Ghostform spell. Not sure though, since it's been a while since I went over spell descriptions.

Mike Havran

2013-04-20, 11:04 AM

137beth

2013-04-20, 03:25 PM

Assuming Xykon doesn't fail the spellcraft check. And assuming he thinks of it in time, and/or isn't otherwise engaged at the time.

Assuming Redcloak has prepared disintegrate, and assuming he's around to help. It wouldn't be that hard to keep him busy long enough to use another spell that would prevent Redcloak using it (prismatic wall for instance, to cut Redcloak off from Xykon). Disintegrate is a level 7 Destruction spell. Redcloak can't have many of those to bust out per day. Technically I think V (lvl 15) could prepare more forcecages than Redcloak could disinegrates at level 17.

Xykon has epic spells, so he definitely has a good spellcraft check modifier.

Mage Paradox

2013-04-20, 06:07 PM

Xykon isn't that smart, he might just think "yeh, I'll just teleport out of this crap" like Z did... not realising the place is dimensionally locked.

Kish

2013-04-20, 09:20 PM

Basing plans around "I assume Xykon will make glaring tactical errors" would be definite progress for the Order. Unfortunately, it would be retrograde progress.

Mage Paradox

2013-04-20, 09:45 PM

Xykon has never used counterspelling. And if Xykon's turn isn't first, then he can't do it. Hardly a big assumption. V pulled it off on Z, so no reason to think he can't do it to Xykon who normally fights like a moron.

As for Redcloak, he might not be there at the time this happens, in which case he can't do it. He could be separated by traps or they split up or who knows. After V puts Xykon in the box, he's stuck there for 30+ hours without assistance.

All V then has to do is permanently separate Redcloak from Xykon for a good chunk of time. For instance, put a prismatic wall between Xykon and the passage Redcloak needs to come down. That'll last 150+ minutes.

That gives the order plenty of time to get away, and/or prepare some serious problems for Xykon and Redcloak.

137beth

2013-04-20, 09:57 PM

Mage Paradox

2013-04-20, 10:02 PM

Not exactly. It'd be pretty freaking difficult. But with a certain amount of luck he might be able to take him down. Alot of luck mind you.

In this instance the forcecage works because I'm assuming (sensibly) that at least some of the Pyramind is dimensionally locked to protect against people teleporting in and out of it. If it's not then this strategem wouldn't work.

For instance, right now if V was extremely lucky, all s/he'd need is one spell which V has. Empowered disintegrate. If V rolled perfectly and got max damage it'd take off 270 damage from Xykon. Way, way above the number of hit points Xykon should have. With luck there's plenty of ways, especially once V gets to level 17 when really good options for taking Xykon out come into play.

Or set Xykon up with Irresistible Dance. Then spend several rounds going ape on him. Given the damage an empowered disintegrate could do, it wouldn't take a great deal of luck for V to finish Xykon.

SaintRidley

2013-04-20, 10:26 PM

Just a note - Irresistable Dance wouldn't affect Xykon.

137beth

2013-04-20, 10:37 PM

Not exactly. It'd be pretty freaking difficult. But with a certain amount of luck he might be able to take him down. Alot of luck mind you.
1. So, you are saying that V could win in a straight up fight.
2. Luck has absolutely no impact on who wins, because whoever the story wants to win still wins.

Now if we are talking crunch,

In this instance the forcecage works because I'm assuming (sensibly) that at least some of the Pyramind is dimensionally locked to protect against people teleporting in and out of it. If it's not then this strategem wouldn't work.
Protip: asserting that your assumptions are sensible without providing additional evidence that they are does not make your argument stronger.
Anyways, I know you haven't played D&D, so let me explain something for you:
Overcoming dimensional lock is really, really, really easy.
First, you said Xykon has never been shown to use counterspell. Okay, but we know that he has spells which he hasn't used. In fact, all he needs to use counterspell is either some dispel magic variant (which he has) or forcage (which he may very well have).
Second, even if he couldn't block V from using forcage, AND he didn't have disintegrate (which is a huge assumption, since he has unknown spells, plus a huge budget for wands and scrolls), he could easily overcome dimensional lock with any sort of dispelling. And that is without even touching epic spells.

For instance, right now if V was extremely lucky, all s/he'd need is one spell which V has. Empowered disintegrate. If V rolled perfectly and got max damage it'd take off 270 damage from Xykon. Way, way above the number of hit points Xykon should have. With luck there's plenty of ways, especially once V gets to level 17.
Once again, luck does not help. Ever. But even if it did, you still need Xykon to fail his saving throw AND Varsuvius to roll particularly high (the odds of rolling 30 6s is roughly 10^-24)...AND doesn't have an item which allows him to resist it (which would be tricky to get, since it deals typeless damage, but should be feasible for an ECL 34+)...then...wait, why can't Xykon have more than 270 hp? He gets an average of 6.5 hp per HD, and he probably has roughly 32 of those. That's about 208 hp. From there, magic items (of which, admittedly, the core rules don't provide good guidlines for crafting items which boost the max hp of creatures without constitution scores, but that is primarily because they don't assume that the PCs are undead, and there is no reason it shouldn't be allowed in a game), feats (epic toughness, for example), and pre-combat buffs, he could easily have more health. Also, DR granting magic items and buffs aren't hard to obtain at epic levels.

So no, even in your world where die rolls matter in the comic AND V gets absurdly lucky, it is still pretty unlikely that the order could win in a straight up fight.

Mage Paradox

2013-04-20, 11:10 PM

My bad on Irresistible Dance. As to the rest however:

even if he couldn't block V from using forcage, AND he didn't have disintegrate (which is a huge assumption, since he has unknown spells, plus a huge budget for wands and scrolls), he could easily overcome dimensional lock with any sort of dispelling. And that is without even touching epic spells.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong, since once Xykon is inside the forcecage no spell can pass in or out, which means Xykon isn't able to dispel the dimensional lock spells on the Pyramid itself, as he's in a box that prevents spells from leaving.

I see no Epic Spell Xykon has been shown to possess that would let him bypass Forcecage. Superb Dispelling doesn't actually dispel things like Forcecage, Prismatic Sphere or Anti-Magic Field based on an actual reading of the spell. He'd need disjunction for that.

I also don't think it's a very huge assumption he doesn't have disintegrate, since he hasn't shown it to date. Until the guy is shown using spells, then for the purposes of discussion we assume he doesn't have them. Xykon's spell list is very limited after all. He should only have three level 6 spells, and we can already account for at least 2 of those by my count (create undead, so he could create ghasts: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html and contingency). I mean, if Xykon isn't shown to have a spell, we shouldn't assume he has it, anymore than we should grant V a ring of fire immunity unless there is good evidence for it.

Your response to the Empowered Disintegrate scenario is silly. Nobody said "Xykon has no way to survive it!!!! HAHAHAHA". What I said was that if V was very lucky, it would one shot Xykon. Now of course, if Xykon has (incredibly obscure) magical items and (undefined) buffs, and makes his (difficult) save, and is lucky, then it won't work. Duh. That's what I said. My whole point was V would need to be very lucky. The fact remains though that if V was very lucky that one spell would one shot Xykon. Deal with it.

137beth

2013-04-20, 11:50 PM

I'm pretty sure this is wrong, since once Xykon is inside the forcecage no spell can pass in or out, which means Xykon isn't able to dispel the dimensional lock spells on the Pyramid itself, as he's in a box that prevents spells from leaving.
You are wrong about this rule: if dimensional lock were cast on the entire area they were fighting in (which you are assuming it is), he could dispel it. If for some reason there were a dimensional lock outside the forcage but not inside (which would be really, really weird), he could teleport out of the pyramid altogether, and reenter through mundane methods.

I see no Epic Spell Xykon has been shown to possess that would let him bypass Forcecage. Superb Dispelling doesn't actually dispel things like Forcecage, Prismatic Sphere or Anti-Magic Field based on an actual reading of the spell. He'd need disjunction for that.
1. Superb dispelling is an odd construction--if you develop the spell as described in the epic level handbook, then per the rules from the dispel seed, it would destroy a forcage:

The dispel seed can defeat all spells, even those not normally subject to dispel magic.
However, the writers of the book made an error when writing the description of superb dispelling.
2.Epic spells are, by their very nature, completely customized. When he used superb dispelling, he used a spell that he personally developed, which may or may not be the same as the one in the ELH, and
3.There is virtually no evidence that he DOESN'T have an epic spell which destroys forcage. If he did have one, he has had no on-panel opportunity to use it.

I also don't think it's a very huge assumption he doesn't have disintegrate, since he hasn't shown it to date. Until the guy is shown using spells, then for the purposes of discussion we assume he doesn't have them. Xykon's spell list is very limited after all. He should only have three level 6 spells, and we can already account for at least 2 of those by my count (create undead, so he could create ghasts: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html and contingency). I mean, if Xykon isn't shown to have a spell, we shouldn't assume he has it, anymore than we should grant V a ring of fire immunity unless there is good evidence for it.
So, you are saying that we should assume that he has only three sixth level spells:smallconfused: If he hasn't shown it, but there is no evidence that he doesn't have it and there is no evidence that he DOES have it, then we don't assume anything. We are 100% sure that he has spells which we have not seen and are not accounted for. We can't assume we know what those are, but you are also making a huge assumption when you say he doesn't have them.

Now of course, if Xykon has (incredibly obscure) magical items and (undefined) buffs, and makes his (difficult) save, and is lucky, then it won't work. Duh. That's what I said. My whole point was V would need to be very lucky. The fact remains though that if V was very lucky that one spell would one shot Xykon. Deal with it.
1. What's obscure about an item which gives damage reduction?
2. I didn't define the buffs because there are hundreds of available buffs in the books which give temporary hitpoints, damage reduction, spell resistance, or any combination thereof. Open any D&D book and flip through until you find something you like. An epic character not having any of those three buffs would be pretty absurd.
3.The save is in no way difficult. V has an Int of 23, so the DC for a 6th level spell would be 22. Even assuming that Xykon has no boosts to his fortitude saves from either spells or feats or magic items (again, there a ton of such buffs in almost every book, many of which are cheaply available even to nonepic casters), Xykon has a fortitude save of +6 from his first 20 class levels and +6 epic bonus from his next 12 levels, so he needs to roll a 10 or higher. That is a 55% chance even under the absurd assumptions that he has no boosts from feats or magic items. Even a nonepic cloak of resistance (or any other nonepic save-boosting item) could bring his required roll down to a 5. Great fortitude reduces this to a 2. That is as easy as a saving throw can get.

What I said was that if V was very lucky, it would one shot Xykon.
Yes, and I explained why even if V was absurdly lucky, he/she still couldn't one-shot Xykon unless you make even more absurd assumptions about Xykon's build.

Mage Paradox

2013-04-21, 12:14 AM

If for some reason there were a dimensional lock outside the forcage but not inside (which would be really, really weird), he could teleport out of the pyramid altogether, and reenter through mundane methods
I just don't agree with your conceptualisation of the dimensional lock. If there is a dimensional lock on the whole Pyramid for instance, then nothing could teleport while inside the Pyramid. It affects every inch of the pyramid in this example. Once Xykon is in a forcecage, he can't cast spells that affect things outside of the forcecage. So while he could conceivably dispel the dimensional lock inside the forcecage (and thus teleport outside the Pyramid), depending exactly how powerful this dimensional lock is, he can't affect the magic outside the cage, meaning he can't just teleport outside the cage into the Pyramid where the spell is still in effect. And don't sneer at the idea Xykon can't dispel the Dimensional lock either. For all we know the Epic caster Girard was the one who permanently warded the Pyramid, so it's entirely possibly Xykon will struggle to overcome the effects.

1. Superb dispelling is an odd construction--if you develop the spell as described in the epic level handbook, then per the rules from the dispel seed, it would destroy a forcage:
But as I said, the actual spell does not do so. I've heard people claim it is an error before, but unless you've got evidence (like a ruling from the publishers in an interview for instance) then your own interpretation is still inconsistent with the actual spell as written. The seed says it "can" overcome all things, but not that it necessarily will. And in this instance the description of the spell clearly does not give it that ability. Until it does, I'm entitled to point this out and maintain it would have no effect.

The claim Epic Spells are all customised is also wrong. It's no more customised than someone forging an epic ring is using a customised process. Sure, they technically had to follow certain steps to do it, but the final product is still what it listed in the handbook (unless it's specifically homebrewed). In this instance someone who tells the DM they're developing that specific Epic spell is developing that specific Epic spell, not some other spell. The calculations for a homebrewed spell could be wholly different to that specific Epic spell (which is not custom, it's a listed spell that is developed by you following steps 1, 2 and 3).

There is virtually no evidence that he DOESN'T have an epic spell which destroys forcage
If we're going to go off the logic of "you must prove a negative to be right" then V wins by using an unlisted, previous unheard of homebrewed spell called the "One shot Xykon spell". This is not how logic works. You can't argue Xykon has spells that would help him by saying "prove to me he does not have it!" I might as well challenge you to prove to me that V did not just pick up 5 epic rings off panel since his last fight.

The save is in no way difficult. V has an Int of 23, so the DC for a 6th level spell would be 22
Empowered Disintegrate is an 8th level spell.

And again, you are furiously backtracking from the original point, since your new point is no different to the point I made- that V would need to be very lucky, but that if V was very lucky Empowered Disintegrate could one shot Xykon... which you now agree with, but are making a big effort to try and suggest otherwise.

If you've got to start inventing buffs and items that Xykon has in advance of this fight, then that makes my point for me, because you're inventing further obstacles to try and increase the chance of V's failure (which is still not assured). I mean, we can start inventing items to boost V's chances that he comes to the fight with too, but I'm not doing that because once you start having to assume Xykon has a bunch of items and powers he's never shown to increase his odds of survival, you've basically conceded the point. Plus V could follow Empowered Disintegrate up with another quickened spell, making it even harder for Xykon to live. All of which only affirms my earlier point. With alot of luck, V can certainly win (something you disputed).

Forikroder

2013-04-21, 12:37 AM

RunicLGB

2013-04-21, 12:52 AM

Xykons spent tons of XP crafting magic items, tons of time building his vault (more XP spent in all likelihood) adn even more time lazing around Azure city

the Order is certainly far more equipped to handle Xykon now then Azure city

Compound that with how much EXP it requires to gain epic levels, and how much exp crafting epic stuff takes and it wouldn't surprise me if Xykon hasn't leveled up at all, even if his power has grown in other areas.

As for the oots, they've been growing:

Roy is now armed with a list of Xykon and Redcloak's spells and feats, and has been shown actively putting the knowledge to use in planning for the inevitable confrontation.

Haley has obtained a very good new bow, and valuable experience as a freedom fighter and rebellion leader which likely boosted her levels.

Varsuvius learned how to actually be useful rather than just rely on brute arcane power.

Elan learned from therkla to actually think ahead about how he might work with the group, and his savy and blind luck continue to be amazingly useful to the party.

Belkar is actually growing as a person, learning to empathize and be part of the team! Its really to sad that h's gonna die now.

Durkon...well durkon finally changed a bit.:smallfrown:

So of course they've all progressed.

Durkon...well he's certainly changed.

ZerglingOne

2013-04-21, 01:29 AM

I'm willing to bet that after ripping 2 castles, 1 of which that is absolutely massive and on the Astral Plane from nothingness into permanent existence his XP isn't as high as we think. Add onto that the fact that the castle on the Astral Plane has several permanent spell effects on it (most/all of which cost XP) Xykon doesn't have a whole lot of XP to burn on other items.

Add onto even that, the fact that Redcloak has fundamentally duped Xykon with the phylactery, rendering the castle mostly useless. He's set himself pretty far back on XP.

Now, consider that Vaarsuvius probably knows Sunburst now, or at least would want to research it after noting its effectiveness on Xykon. (it was actually the most powerful/effective spell she cast on him).

Not knowing the interaction between Sunburst and Protection from Daylight, since the latter is a homebrew spell, it's hard to say how it could/would affect Durk and Mal. All the spell says is that if it hits a creature that's normally particularly vulnerable to sunlight, it destroys them outright on a failed save.

That would immediately 100% nullify Durkon, Malack, or both. From there, it's Haley nullifying Zz'dtri, Roy fighting Tarquin, and Elan fighting Nale, with Belkar and V fighting a kobold that's an accountant by trade. The way I see it, as long as V is around with Sunburst prepared, the teams are on equal footing with Sabine banished.

Mage Paradox

2013-04-21, 01:53 AM

Most importantly, V is now 15+, and potentially could be higher than 15 at this stage. Once V hits level 17, hir will have all sorts of ways to mess Xykon up.

Examples:
-take a level (or two) of Archmage, get the high arcana of "arcane reach", then use Imprisonment on Xykon from 30+ feet away. That's basically it for Xykon for the forseeable future.
- Now that you have 9th level spell slots, just cast quickened disintegrate followed up by empowered disintegrate (or if you've got an extra lvl 9 slot due to higher scores, cast Maximised Disintegrate instead). This causes up to 510 hit points damage. With a little luck Xykon is one shot (even with the charitable 32 HD calculated 202 hit points from earlier).
- take a level (or two) of Archmage, get the high arcana of Master of Elements, then lead with quickened disintegrate followed up by Sonic/Acid Meteor Swarm. This causes up to 396 hit points of damage.
- Quickened disintegrate followed up by Sunburst causes up to 304 damage, while possibly blinding Xykon.
- Quickened Dimensional Anchor followed up by Forecage (technically V could just do this now) so the team can kill Xykon's minions first, then focus on dealing with him.
- As Archmage with mastery of elements, use Quickened dimensional anchor, Timestop, and then use the (up to) 5 rounds of time to put up a prismatic wall (or walls) to stop escape, use 1 or more empowered delayed blast (sonic)fireballs. Since I'd assume V is already buffed in the fight, chuck up Evan's forced tentacles of intrusion too to stop Xykon advancing on you in the Pryamid/dungeon, then have at Xykon again next turn. He has nowhere to go, and won't last long (especially if the rest of the team is there).

Those are just some of the ways a level 17 V can cause Xykon all sorts of problems, unaided. Let alone with help (and using disjunction to mess with his items). Heck, Durkon in an anti-magic field at close range could cause Xykon all sorts of trouble. V could set up Xykon with the quickened dimensional anchor and forcecage, then once they've taken care of the others (or separated them from Redcloak, assuming he was there in the first place), Durkon and the others just surround the point Xykon is, and Durkon turns on his anti-magic field. The team would then pound Xykon to dust. This is assuming the team has Durkon (though V can do the same thing for them). All this with V's not having 2 of the best schools available (with Gate V would wreak havoc on Xykon at level 17).

Eric Tolle

2013-04-21, 02:47 AM

The Order isn't even close to taking on Xykon/Redcloak, because they haven't solved the mystery of the Rift yet. The final confrontation isn't going to happen until one or more of the Order are sucked through the Rift to the planetinside the planet. Hell nobody knows the REAL stakes of this conflct, and the laws of drama demand they be revealed before any pretty rules about magical capability are applied.

There's a lot of "Dunh Dunh DUNH" to get through first. I'm sure Elan would agree.

Mike Havran

2013-04-21, 03:10 AM

That would immediately 100% nullify Durkon, Malack, or both. From there, it's Haley nullifying Zz'dtri, Roy fighting Tarquin, and Elan fighting Nale, with Belkar and V fighting a kobold that's an accountant by trade. The way I see it, as long as V is around with Sunburst prepared, the teams are on equal footing with Sabine banished.

If you assume that V will prepare Sunburst to fight the vampires, you should also assume that Z will prepare Stoneskin or some other relatively low level spell that makes him resistant to anything Haley can do.

SadisticFishing

2013-04-21, 04:20 AM

Paradox, your argument is very, very strange.

V is a caster, sure, casters can do awesome things. Xykon is a caster 10 levels higher who has defeated higher level, smarter wizards than V without much issue at all.

"V optimizes and takes out Xykon" is not a possible course of action. You've mentioned a few things, none of them even compare to the fact that Xykon is incredibly powerful. It's going to take more than dipping 2 levels into a Prestige Class and levelling up twice to defeat Xykon. Also, Forcecage can be Disintegrated. By RedCloak. Who is also a very powerful caster in his own right.

The entire OotS would have their handful with Redcloak alone, though they'd win, all things even. Redcloak PLUS Xykon? No way.

If the Dimensional Anchor is inside the Forcecage, it can be dispelled from inside the forcecage.

I thoroughly agree with the point that the story has kept character growth and levelling up working together very well. All good D&D should be like that.

One more note: Forcecage does not actually take Xykon out of the running. It holds him off for a few hours, but then they have a pissed off epic lich killing them all very quickly.

Mage Paradox

2013-04-21, 04:42 AM

Xykon is without question more powerful than V and the order can be anytime soon. That said, there are ways that, with luck, the order could beat Xykon. I have listed some of them above, and they still stand.

SadisticFishing

2013-04-21, 04:52 AM

Well, that's obvious and not really worth mentioning. It's actually literally happened already. He broke Roy's sword.

It's also completely irrelevant, narratively, and in conversation.

Kish

2013-04-21, 07:00 AM

I just don't agree with your conceptualisation of the dimensional lock.

Because you think the dimensional lock is a kind of Schroedinger's dimensional lock that's inside the Forcecage when Xykon tries to teleport out of it, but isn't inside the Forcecage when Xykon tries to dispel it, apparently...

For all we know the Epic caster Girard was the one who permanently warded the Pyramid, so it's entirely possibly Xykon will struggle to overcome the effects.

For all we know, the epic illusionist Girard designed an epic Abjuration spell that functions like an improved Cloister and which Xykon would be unable to overcome, eh? I hope you are not including me in that We.

There is no question that Vaarsuvius (or anyone) "could" defeat Xykon if Rich suddenly started writing as though the universe itself was against Xykon. But he's not going to--just as Vaarsuvius is not going to suddenly go, "Hoi hoi, I need to optimize better, I will take archmage levels!"

Mage Paradox

2013-04-21, 07:07 AM

Because you think the dimensional lock is a kind of Schroedinger's dimensional lock that's inside the Forcecage when Xykon tries to teleport out of it, but isn't inside the Forcecage when Xykon tries to dispel it, apparently...
Not at all. You can use Dispel Magic on a specific area for instance, and thus dispel only part of the spell. Which is what Xykon would be doing, dispelling the part of the spell inside the forcecage. But the part of the spell outside the cage? He can't affect that, because no spells can pass through it.

For all we know, the epic illusionist Girard designed an epic Abjuration spell that functions like an improved Cloister and which Xykon would be unable to overcome, eh? I hope you are not including me in that We.

There is no question that Vaarsuvius (or anyone) "could" defeat Xykon if Rich suddenly started writing as though the universe itself was against Xykon. But he's not going to--just as Vaarsuvius is not going to suddenly go, "Hoi hoi, I need to optimize better, I will take archmage levels!"

It doesn't have to be an epic abjuration, just a spell cast by someone of a really freaking high level, which Xykon fails his dispel checks on.

zimmerwald1915

2013-04-21, 07:16 AM

It doesn't have to be an epic abjuration, just a spell cast by someone of a really freaking high level, which Xykon fails his dispel checks on.
Problem: Xykon's already managed an epic dispel check, against Darth V. Redcloak, who at the time was something like level 16 to V's natural level 14, found that when he tried to dispel V's buffs, his "caster level [couldn't] overcome the elf's" (the highest dispel check Redcloak could manage at level 16, incidentally, would be 36). This strongly suggests that the splices augmented V's caster level as well as her effective character level. Xykon, however, was able to dispel V's "defenses" and "flight spell" without a hitch, despite V's augmented caster level.

Girard, on the other hand, was a multiclass caster. He took two levels of Ranger. How can anyone reasonably surmise that Girard's spells, cast at a lower caster level than Darth V's, will be more resistant to Xykon's dispels than Darth V's spells were?

Mage Paradox

2013-04-21, 07:39 AM

Well, pretty easily really. I mean, All we know for certain from Dorukan's fight with Xykon is that he was no higher than level 39 (based on the number of energy drains it took to kill him), and he was the youngest and least experienced member of the party. For all we know Girard was off adventuring for years at higher levels before "the new kid" rocked up. Plus based off Dorukan's scenes the guy is pushin, what, level 27 or higher pretty easily. He's portrayed as way out there. I could definitely see Girard being high enough that Xykon fails the Dispel Check.

Let's also remember V's caster level had been dropped way, way down by that point from losing Haerta and being maximized energy drained. assumedly V was losing the level of the caster who cast it (at the time they cast it) though, but we don't know if it was Jephton or Ganonron or who, it makes a big difference.

Aidjn

2013-04-21, 07:44 AM

If Xykon was force caged, he'd use superb dispelling on it if he needed to. But more likely any V vs Xykon would start and end with a maximized energy drain or maximized meteor swarm.

Mage Paradox

2013-04-21, 07:48 AM

If Xykon was force caged, he'd use superb dispelling on it if he needed to. But more likely any V vs Xykon would start and end with a maximized energy drain or maximized meteor swarm.

As we've covered, Superb Dispelling does not actually work on forcecage... which is funny, but true. It doesn't work on wall of force, anti-magic field or prismatic sphere/walls either.

You assume Xykon attacks first, but maybe V does. Maybe V gets lucky with his 1-2 punch of quickened and regular spells and Xykon goes down in one hit.

zimmerwald1915

2013-04-21, 07:52 AM

Maybe V gets lucky with his 1-2 punch of quickened and regular spells and Xykon goes down in one hit.
Nope. A minor character is not going to kill Xykon. That's Roy's job, if anyone's.

Mage Paradox

2013-04-21, 07:59 AM

We're talking about technical feasibility, not plot armour that Xykon might have.

zimmerwald1915

2013-04-21, 08:05 AM

We're talking about technical feasibility, not plot armour that Xykon might have.
Are we? Because you seem to be going out of your way to mutilate Xykon's established character and powers in order to set up the scenario you want, while simultaneously inflating V's power and importance.

Auldrin

2013-04-21, 08:11 AM

Are we? Because you seem to be going out of your way to mutilate Xykon's established character and powers in order to set up the scenario you want, while simultaneously inflating V's power and importance.

Importance. Again, a word that only has any, well, importance, if you're talking about plot armor. Personally I've found with 100% reliability that people who think Xykon is superpowerful massively overestimate his ability.

His favourite spell is meteor swarm, which V has been shown to survive. He's a sorceror so he can't really use Quicken, meaning he only gets off one big blast per round. Whether you like it or not that 'minor' character introduced in the first panel has the ability using only existing spells to do enough damage to kill Xykon in 1-2 rounds. High level casters are glass cannons, the first shot will matter more than anything, and there's no particular reason Xykon would get it.

Mage Paradox

2013-04-21, 08:16 AM

zimmerwald1915

2013-04-21, 08:23 AM

Importance. Again, a word that only has any, well, importance, if you're talking about plot armor.
Plot armor...or narrative role. The Order of the Stick is not about Vaarsuvius. Vaarsuvius has fewer appearances than any Order member except Durkon (flat, one-dimensional Durkon!), and the trend over this arc has seen that gap narrow almost to the point where Durkon will pass V. The frequency with which V must be shunted off-panel shows that the story would work just as well, possibly better, if she were not in it. Such a person is not, under any circumstances, going to kill Xykon. It will never happen. The Order of the Stick is about Roy.

Whether you like it or not that 'minor' character introduced in the first panel has the ability using only existing spells to do enough damage to kill Xykon in 1-2 rounds.
She failed to kill Xykon, using more powerful spells, over a period of more than two rounds. I did the math for the Darth V-Xykon fight, and it shows that Xykon is demonstrably nerfed; he had to roll almost all 1s on his meteor swarm damage dice to avoid killing V. So why is V not also nerfed?

RunicLGB

2013-04-21, 09:27 AM

V was under a large number of defensive buffs at the time, I think some of them would reduce the damage from Meteor swarm especially since MS is weak against resistances because it doesn't deal a flat 24d6 damage, it deals 6d6 damage 4 times.

After the fight with V it wouldn't surprise me if Xykon took the time to develop a counter to sunburst since it did do the trick.

Kish

2013-04-21, 09:36 AM

Nobody is downgrading your precious Xykon. Everyone says he's very powerful (and he is). Clearly stronger than anyone in the OOTS. Nobody has "mutilated" his powers, he gets all the powers he's shown. I've merely pointed out that in reality V could get lucky and kill him in 1 round. And s/he could. Deal with it.
Yes, s/he could, if Rich suddenly decided to rule Forcecage, dispelling, counterspelling, and Girard's theoretical epic spells all functioned as if they loved Vaarsuvius and hated Xykon.

S/he also could if s/he tripped and accidentally activated an Utterly Destroy Lich Sorcerers Named Xykon With No Save Ignoring All Defenses Not Kidding rune Girard left lying around.

I do not believe anyone has questioned the fact that any ridiculous outcome could take place if Rich suddenly decided to write one.

Mike Havran

2013-04-21, 09:43 AM

V was under a large number of defensive buffs at the time, I think some of them would reduce the damage from Meteor swarm especially since MS is weak against resistances because it doesn't deal a flat 24d6 damage, it deals 6d6 damage 4 times.

After the fight with V it wouldn't surprise me if Xykon took the time to develop a counter to sunburst since it did do the trick.

I think Xykon dispelled V's buffs with superb dispelling.

zimmerwald1915

2013-04-21, 09:43 AM

V was under a large number of defensive buffs at the time, I think some of them would reduce the damage from Meteor swarm especially since MS is weak against resistances because it doesn't deal a flat 24d6 damage, it deals 6d6 damage 4 times.
The list of buffs she was under can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html) The ones that would matter against a meteor swarm are bear's endurance, protection from spells, and shield. Protection from spells would have given her a +8 bonus to make her reflex save against the first meteor swarm. Assuming she makes her save, that's at least 12 damage. The second (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html), after both bear's endurance and protection from spells have been dispelled (bear's endurance thus becomes irrelevant for discussing how many hit points V has), would do at least another 12 damage. Add on top of that the damage from the three magical traps (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) Redcloak installed, the falling damage and the damage from the masonry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) (remember, stoneskin's dispelled by this point too), and you see that Xykon's damage dice must have been near-minimized, and V's hit dice near maximized, for her to have survived.

That's okay. It's plausible within the physics of the setting, helped the scene play out like it needed to, and is actually a pretty good nerf for blaster casters. The problem is that it also applies in reverse. If Xykon can be so nerfed for the needs of the story, then why shouldn't V be similarly nerfed? Personally, I believe she already is, as I'm arguing over in the other thread, but there's some in this thread that believe Xykon should be nerfed and V buffed to serve the needs of the story they want told, and it's not reasonable.

Bulldog Psion

2013-04-21, 08:46 PM

Yup.

Nobody is downgrading your precious Xykon. Everyone says he's very powerful (and he is). Clearly stronger than anyone in the OOTS. Nobody has "mutilated" his powers, he gets all the powers he's shown. I've merely pointed out that in reality V could get lucky and kill him in 1 round. And s/he could. Deal with it.

I don't give a rat's axe about Xykon, other than an occasional chuckle at his detestable humorousness.

I do, however, kind of doubt that V can pretty much "gun him down" by gaining one or two levels when V was unable to do so with three epic level sorcerers grafted onto him.

Xykon is going to fall to cunning, not brute force.

Mage Paradox

2013-04-21, 09:18 PM

I don't give a rat's axe about Xykon, other than an occasional chuckle at his detestable humorousness.

I do, however, kind of doubt that V can pretty much "gun him down" by gaining one or two levels when V was unable to do so with three epic level sorcerers grafted onto him.

Xykon is going to fall to cunning, not brute force.

And yet the examples I give stand. Sure, it won't happen for plot reasons, but the reality is V can gun Xykon down with luck (and in a few levels not much luck is needed, just the first shot).

ZerglingOne

2013-04-21, 09:24 PM

If you assume that V will prepare Sunburst to fight the vampires, you should also assume that Z will prepare Stoneskin or some other relatively low level spell that makes him resistant to anything Haley can do.

Stoneskin does nothing vs. A +5 bow in 3.5. Plus it's been mentioned all over the place now that Z builds specifically to beat V.

My bad...adamantine, but it's still more or less ineffective vs 1d10 + 1d6 + 5

Mage Paradox

2013-04-21, 11:02 PM

The post which links to Roy being level 13 has recent calculations of stuff most definitely earning XP. I'm sure there's been more recently too.

SadisticFishing

2013-04-21, 11:13 PM

If spells don't work through Forcecage, the Dimensional Anchor won't work through it.

There is no rule that spells don't work through a Forcecage. You even still have line of sight!

Mage Paradox

2013-04-21, 11:22 PM

If spells don't work through Forcecage, the Dimensional Anchor won't work through it.

There is no rule that spells don't work through a Forcecage. You even still have line of sight!

Sorry, but you're wrong on both counts:
1) Dimensional Anchor would hit him before he gets put in the forcecage, so it still works, and
2) Once inside the forcecage you can use spells, but the spells cannot leave unless you use the barred variety of cage:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm
It's a principle of basic statutory interpretation really- the express mention of one things infers the exclusion of the other. We're told that spells can pass through the barred cage precisely because they can't pass through the cube version. We're also told explicitly that the walls are made of force, and operates like wall of force:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm

Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.

SadisticFishing

2013-04-21, 11:31 PM

It never claims that spells can't make it through the original, just that ANY spell can go through the barred one. A wall of force gets in the way of a Scorching Ray, but it doesn't claim that it'll stop anything else, really.

I didn't realize you thought that they were all struck by beams of shimmering emerald light against their touch ACs when they walked into the pyramid. Nevermind, there is no Dimensional Anchor involved, period. Also, in that case, he could just Dispel Magic himself.

You're grasping at straws in a way that I still find very strange. If Xykon rolls all 1s and everyone else rolls nothing but 20s and max on their dice, they can easily win.

A single critical Disintegrate can probably take down Xykon, by the way.

Mage Paradox

2013-04-21, 11:35 PM

Dimensional anchor is only relevant to one of the scenarios I posed, nobody has said it's been used in the comic on the party. Duh.

SadisticFishing

2013-04-21, 11:42 PM

Your main scenario is "Forcecage + Dimensional Anchor". That didn't happen.

OotS can already win technically because dice are technically fickle. Not going to happen.

Disintegrate + high attack roll + low fortitude save means that V can take him down in a round. Roy has a lot of hit points, so lots of made saves + good attack rolls means Roy can beat him in a fight. That applies to all characters. Technically. If you think that "possibility" is worth keeping somewhere in your mind, let alone actually discussing, I have some lottery tickets to sell you.

Toofey

2013-04-21, 11:58 PM

Clearly we are currently at something close to "bottom" for the team. I expect the class levels to show when V scoops the rest of the party up from the next big boom. As you won't notice them in a quantifiable way when roy and the rest use their levels (except possibly a good spell by elan)

I do expect that when we see the team rally, it'll be significantly more effective than we've seen before, because they'll be on a surge then.

TLDR the teams ebb in terms of the plot is masking their progress.

Mage Paradox

2013-04-21, 11:59 PM

{SCRUBBED}

archaeo

2013-04-22, 12:26 AM

Clearly we are currently at something close to "bottom" for the team...

I do expect that when we see the team rally, it'll be significantly more effective than we've seen before, because they'll be on a surge then.

TLDR the teams ebb in terms of the plot is masking their progress.

See, this is the issue with the OP's point. It's like everyone forgets about second acts, always, all the time. We're at the end of The Empire Strikes Back, here. In fact, we can easily map the story to the film's plot, if you'd like. Azure City is Hoth. The Empire of Blood is Cloud City. Roy went away and learned some new tricks from an old master. The team is currently struggling against an overpowering force, and has fallen pray to trickery, and etc.

Now, obviously the stories here aren't line-for-line identical, because the Giant is telling an engaging story, utilizing the structure of D&D to tease out thought-provoking themes and create original characters through his deft understanding of the genre (and medium). But he also understands the fundamentals of storytelling, the really elemental levers by which an author can affect the flow of the plot. And right now, all those levers are pushing the Order into the corner, where they're not going to win.

If anybody has a problem with this, it's because they lose track of the fact that stories have middles. The fact that the Giant put his story within the D&D framework makes it too easy to imagine the dice rolls underpinning the whole edifice, when there's nothing numerical going on here (a good thing, since narratives that take the leveling-up thing at face value are just too linear). This is qualitative role playing; if a real gaming group were doing this, we might call it improvised fantasy, but since it's just the Giant, we can call it good writing.

You continue to post aggressively, and yet I'm not sure one thing you've posted refutes anything I've actually said. Maybe you should wait for a post I make where you actually disagree, instead of violently agreeing with me all the time.

Honestly, I think you and the other various arguers in this thread have been talking past one another. You understand that V has the theoretical ability to overcome Xykon singlehandedly. They understand that it will never happen because of how the Giant has characterized his own work. Either way, being snarky isn't going to promote greater understanding.