White Raven for Demented DMs

[Palanan]

I'm using ToB for the first time in my campaign, and I'm trying to work my way through the warblade disciplines. Right now I have a couple of questions about using White Raven maneuvers.

Please bear with me here; sometimes ToB is a real challenge to figure out.


Tactical Strike (p.93)
The extra 2d6 I can follow, but I'm not sure what the allies are supposed to be doing with their five-foot steps. Is this to allow them to duck out of range for some reason? Or is it just meant to allow for a bit of tactical reshuffling on your turn?

White Raven Tactics (p.94)
As written it seems okay. My question is, can you use this sequentially to bring all your allies right behind your initiative count? For instance, starting with your first round:


1. bring first ally to init -1
2. melee attack (to refresh)
3. bring second ally to init -1
4. melee attack (to refresh)
5. bring third ally to init -1
etc., etc.

If this is how it's intended, then how do you order initiative for your successive allies? Does each ally gain a cumulative -1, with the second at -2, the third at -3, and so on?
.

[ZamielVanWeber]

When multiple persons occupy the same initiative point, you go by Dex order. If the same person uses tactics, they end up in the sake slot. Of a person affected by tactics uses tactics, the person they used it ok goes after them. As for tactical strike I find the biggest advantage is for setting up flanking fun with multiple people.

[OverdrivePrime]

I'm using ToB for the first time in my campaign, and I'm trying to work my way through the warblade disciplines. Right now I have a couple of questions about using White Raven maneuvers.

Please bear with me here; sometimes ToB is a real challenge to figure out.


Tactical Strike (p.93)
The extra 2d6 I can follow, but I'm not sure what the allies are supposed to be doing with their five-foot steps. Is this to allow them to duck out of range for some reason? Or is it just meant to allow for a bit of tactical reshuffling on your turn?

White Raven Tactics (p.94)
As written it seems okay. My question is, can you use this sequentially to bring all your allies right behind your initiative count? For instance, starting with your first round:


1. bring first ally to init -1
2. melee attack (to refresh)
3. bring second ally to init -1
4. melee attack (to refresh)
5. bring third ally to init -1
etc., etc.

If this is how it's intended, then how do you order initiative for your successive allies? Does each ally gain a cumulative -1, with the second at -2, the third at -3, and so on?
.

There are much better folks here to speak to White Raven Tactics, but it is super impressive.

As far as Tactical Strike, it's a great effect if you're in a party with a lot of melee warriors. That extra free five foot step can help your team reposition for flanking, or to get out of the way of a major threat. Party rogues love it. Striker-types such as more fragile gishes love it to, because they can strike, and then get behind the tank.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber
When multiple persons occupy the same initiative point, you go by Dex order.

Hm. Do you have a citation in the rules for this?

Whenever I have two individuals on the same initiative count, I just have them roll percentile (and I roll for any NPCs). It's worked for me so far, but I'd like to look up the Dex order if that's an official rule.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm using ToB for the first time in my campaign, and I'm trying to work my way through the warblade disciplines. Right now I have a couple of questions about using White Raven maneuvers.

Please bear with me here; sometimes ToB is a real challenge to figure out.


Tactical Strike (p.93)
The extra 2d6 I can follow, but I'm not sure what the allies are supposed to be doing with their five-foot steps. Is this to allow them to duck out of range for some reason? Or is it just meant to allow for a bit of tactical reshuffling on your turn?

White Raven Tactics (p.94)
As written it seems okay. My question is, can you use this sequentially to bring all your allies right behind your initiative count? For instance, starting with your first round:


1. bring first ally to init -1
2. melee attack (to refresh)
3. bring second ally to init -1
4. melee attack (to refresh)
5. bring third ally to init -1
etc., etc.

If this is how it's intended, then how do you order initiative for your successive allies? Does each ally gain a cumulative -1, with the second at -2, the third at -3, and so on?
.

First point is that only a Warblade could refresh as you describe, Crusaders and Swordsages have different methods (and it SUCKS SO HARD to be a SS unless you take Adaptive Style).

Secondly, when rolling initiative ties are broken by total initiative modifier, DEX + feats + items. I'd say that's how to break the ties on successive uses of WRT.

Thirdly, not certain what use a bump in initiative would be by round 7 of a fight.

[Darrin]

I'm using ToB for the first time in my campaign, and I'm trying to work my way through the warblade disciplines. Right now I have a couple of questions about using White Raven maneuvers.

Please bear with me here; sometimes ToB is a real challenge to figure out.


Tactical Strike (p.93)
The extra 2d6 I can follow, but I'm not sure what the allies are supposed to be doing with their five-foot steps. Is this to allow them to duck out of range for some reason? Or is it just meant to allow for a bit of tactical reshuffling on your turn?


Mostly, the 5' step is to allow your allies to "surround" a target and set up flanking, if they aren't flanking already.



White Raven Tactics (p.94)
As written it seems okay. My question is, can you use this sequentially to bring all your allies right behind your initiative count? For instance, starting with your first round:

[INDENT]1. bring first ally to init -1
2. melee attack (to refresh)
3. bring second ally to init -1
4. melee attack (to refresh)
5. bring third ally to init -1
etc., etc.


No. White Raven Tactics changes when an ally's turn comes up in the initiative count so they go immediately after you. There are at least two situations where this is desirable:

1) Your ally hasn't acted yet, most likely because they rolled very poorly on their init, and would probably very much like to go before the enemy has a chance to attack them. This raises their init count to just below yours.

2) Your ally has already acted on a higher init count, and wants to get another turn before the next round starts. On the next round, they act on the new lower initiative count, but the disadvantages of this are far outweighed by the fact that they got two entire friggin' turns on the same round.

The problem with White Raven Tactics is that the designers didn't realize that according to the glossary in the PHB, "ally" is defined to include your own PC as the default (as Bards do when they use Inspire Courage). So by RAW, you can use White Raven Tactics on yourself. As many killjoy DMs have bemoaned, this is way too powerful for a 3rd level maneuver, but it's actually only the 2nd most broken thing you can do with it. The 1st most broken thing is to give the Wizard/Druid/Cleric another turn.

[Shining Wrath]

Hm. Do you have a citation in the rules for this?

Whenever I have two individuals on the same initiative count, I just have them roll percentile (and I roll for any NPCs). It's worked for me so far, but I'd like to look up the Dex order if that's an official rule.

Ask: receive (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm). Complete with bolded quote for your perusal convenience:


Initiative
Initiative Checks

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll. Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).

If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.

[mattie_p]

Hm. Do you have a citation in the rules for this?

Whenever I have two individuals on the same initiative count, I just have them roll percentile (and I roll for any NPCs). It's worked for me so far, but I'd like to look up the Dex order if that's an official rule.

It is, kinda. Not just dex, though. Find it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm):


If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Darrin
On the next round, they act on the new lower initiative count, but the disadvantages of this are far outweighed by the fact that they got two entire friggin' turns on the same round.

To quote Captain Sulu, --surely not?

Two full turns in the same round would be a major issue for me. I feel a houserule coming on.


Originally Posted by OverdrivePrime
As far as Tactical Strike, it's a great effect if you're in a party with a lot of melee warriors.

Okay, thanks. The party is big on melee, so they'll be happy. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by ShiningWrath and mattie_p
*initiative rules*

Thanks for the reference there. I kinda like my way, though.

:smallbiggrin:

[ZamielVanWeber]

Hm. Do you have a citation in the rules for this?

Whenever I have two individuals on the same initiative count, I just have them roll percentile (and I roll for any NPCs). It's worked for me so far, but I'd like to look up the Dex order if that's an official rule.

That was my bad. We just use Dex so much in my group to avoid extra rolling I forgot how it is supposed to work.

[Darrin]

Two full turns in the same round would be a major issue for me. I feel a houserule coming on.


The original Custserv ruling was "you can't use this on yourself", although we're pretty sure whoever made it was not aware of the glossary definition of ally.

The Unofficial ToB Errata project (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=335.0) ruled that this didn't work because of some wacky nonsense about "negative initiative", I don't entirely remember their reasoning, but they didn't let it work on allies, either, and I think they added a "once per encounter" restriction to shut down RKV/Divine Impetus abuse.

Personally, I think it's fine once per round (even on yourself) if you're only using it on melee characters, under the "Melee Should Have Nice Things Once In Awhile" reasoning, but this isn't a popular position. I would recommend against nerfing it unless you see any actual abuse going on.

[Palanan]

Well, I realized I'm somewhat compromised on this issue, since the party druid has been using Snake's Swiftness whenever she can--specifically on melee characters. :smallredface:

Hmm.



*ponders moral dilemma*

[nedz]

Mostly, the 5' step is to allow your allies to "surround" a target and set up flanking, if they aren't flanking already.



No. White Raven Tactics changes when an ally's turn comes up in the initiative count so they go immediately after you. There are at least two situations where this is desirable:

1) Your ally hasn't acted yet, most likely because they rolled very poorly on their init, and would probably very much like to go before the enemy has a chance to attack them. This raises their init count to just below yours.

2) Your ally has already acted on a higher init count, and wants to get another turn before the next round starts. On the next round, they act on the new lower initiative count, but the disadvantages of this are far outweighed by the fact that they got two entire friggin' turns on the same round.

The problem with White Raven Tactics is that the designers didn't realize that according to the glossary in the PHB, "ally" is defined to include your own PC as the default (as Bards do when they use Inspire Courage). So by RAW, you can use White Raven Tactics on yourself. As many killjoy DMs have bemoaned, this is way too powerful for a 3rd level maneuver, but it's actually only the 2nd most broken thing you can do with it. The 1st most broken thing is to give the Wizard/Druid/Cleric another turn.

3) Two PCs in the party have WRT. And they just daisy chain each other so that no body else gets a turn, ever.

[Palanan]

Yeah, looking like less and less of a moral dilemma now.

: /

.

[Darrin]

3) Two PCs in the party have WRT. And they just daisy chain each other so that no body else gets a turn, ever.

That's not how White Raven Tactics work. Other creatures still get to go on their initiative count, same as they would without White Raven Tactics. You may have to roll-off to see who goes first, but it doesn't deprive anyone from acting on their typical initiative count.

The only way to stop another round from happening is to keep iterating the daisy chain into negative initiative numbers, but you need a method to both recover the maneuver and give yourself another swift action to use it, since swift actions are generally restricted to once per turn. Two Ruby Knight Vindicator 7s (Divine Recovery + Divine Impetus) is really the only build that can pull this off, but even they will eventually run out of Turn Undead attempts, so it's not an infinite loop.

[mattie_p]

3) Two PCs in the party have WRT. And they just daisy chain each other so that no body else gets a turn, ever.

This only works if they are idiot crusaders, and refresh WRT every round. Idiot crusaders, despite conventional wisdom, don't work until about ECL 11 for white raven tactics.

[jindra34]

3) Two PCs in the party have WRT. And they just daisy chain each other so that no body else gets a turn, ever.

You can't. No one can refresh well enough to enable using it often enough.

[nedz]

OK, but you guys have given me mutually exclusive answers. :smallconfused:

[JBento]

Just for the record, I'm pretty sure it was never intended to be legal to use WRT on yourself. Compare it's Target line (One ally) to Lion's Roar's, two pages earlier (You and allied creatures within 60ft.).

It's my opinion (and everyone knows what is said about opinions) that, for the purposes of ToB, you don't count as your own ally.

[mattie_p]

OK, but you guys have given me mutually exclusive answers. :smallconfused:

Idiot crusaders can refresh their maneuvers after every turn. A player is limited to one swift action per turn. WRT is a swift action. It is unfortunately RAW - but can only be done at level 11 or so. I'd advise against allowing such as a DM.

My take on the legality of idiot crusaders (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14467383&postcount=2). (Two posts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13987133&postcount=2006)).

[A_S]

I believe a Warblade with WRT and 7 levels of RKV can also take a number of turns in a row limited only by his Turn Undead attempts, right?

[Crinias]

I'm using ToB for the first time in my campaign, and I'm trying to work my way through the warblade disciplines. Right now I have a couple of questions about using White Raven maneuvers.

Please bear with me here; sometimes ToB is a real challenge to figure out.


Tactical Strike (p.93)
The extra 2d6 I can follow, but I'm not sure what the allies are supposed to be doing with their five-foot steps. Is this to allow them to duck out of range for some reason? Or is it just meant to allow for a bit of tactical reshuffling on your turn?

White Raven Tactics (p.94)
As written it seems okay. My question is, can you use this sequentially to bring all your allies right behind your initiative count? For instance, starting with your first round:


1. bring first ally to init -1
2. melee attack (to refresh)
3. bring second ally to init -1
4. melee attack (to refresh)
5. bring third ally to init -1
etc., etc.

If this is how it's intended, then how do you order initiative for your successive allies? Does each ally gain a cumulative -1, with the second at -2, the third at -3, and so on?
.

First point is that only a Warblade could refresh as you describe, Crusaders and Swordsages have different methods (and it SUCKS SO HARD to be a SS unless you take Adaptive Style).

/snip


I'd like to note that even as a Warblade you cannot do that.


Tome of Battle page 41:
Warblade: A warblade can recover all of his expended maneuvers as a swift action, followed by making a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round. If he initiates a maneuver or changes his stance during a round, he can't recover his expended maneuvers.

I mean, I suppose you could use Adaptive Style and multiple people with White Raven Tactics, but since using Adaptive Style is a full-round action it would only help to bring your allies' initiative counts to one after the other...

Actually, with mattie_p's comment, I am left with more questions than answers regarding multiclassing, readying a manuever more than once, and learning a same manuever more than once via different classes... OP is right by saying that ToB can be a real challenge to figure out.

[Dimers]

The PHB doesn't actually say you ARE your own ally. It says that in most places the word is used, you're included ... which means absolutely nothing, since there's no hard answer and there's no indication of which situations do and do not make apply. So there's a little abuse gone.

[mattie_p]

Actually, with mattie_p's comment, I am left with more questions than answers regarding multiclassing, readying a manuever more than once, and learning a same manuever more than once via different classes... OP is right by saying that ToB can be a real challenge to figure out.

The only rules on multiclassing (with regards to ToB) exist in the PHB and the ToB. The Sage (not even FAQ) confuses the issue. I recommend you ignore the Sage in this instance. Multiclassing keeps class abilities separate, except where explicitly combined (as in the PHB/SRD examples). ToB only has the 1/2 initiator rule to contribute to the discussion. If you have specific questions feel free to ask, I or another will answer as best I (we) can.


The PHB doesn't actually say you ARE your own ally. It says that in most places the word is used, you're included ... which means absolutely nothing, since there's no hard answer and there's no indication of which situations do and do not make apply. So there's a little abuse gone.

PHB Indicates otherwise on page 304.


ally: A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to “allies” include yourself.

[Lapak]

To quote Captain Sulu, --surely not?

Two full turns in the same round would be a major issue for me. I feel a houserule coming on.Well, it's explicitly in the description of the maneuver that it allows this, so changing it IS a pretty significant alteration.

It's not repeatable (outside of exotic situations like two different initiators alternating WRT) because once their initiative is after yours they can't ever get double-turns again. So it's a once-per-combat (possibly per ally, but most combats won't last long enough for you to refresh it often enough AND have them go before you) maneuver.

[123456789blaaa]

The only rules on multiclassing (with regards to ToB) exist in the PHB and the ToB. The Sage (not even FAQ) confuses the issue. I recommend you ignore the Sage in this instance. Multiclassing keeps class abilities separate, except where explicitly combined (as in the PHB/SRD examples). ToB only has the 1/2 initiator rule to contribute to the discussion. If you have specific questions feel free to ask, I or another will answer as best I (we) can.



PHB Indicates otherwise on page 304.

In most cases. That's not a hard answer.

[mattie_p]

In most cases. That's not a hard answer.

The rules will define circumstances when "most cases" will not apply. In other words, the general rule is that "you are your own ally," specific rules will provide exceptions. The FAQ attempts to state that WRT tactics cannot be used on yourself (something I agree with) although it is not RAW. (See this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-74560.html) for an interesting discussion on the topic).