View Full Version : The snarl doesn't matter and who knows why the order are being taken for a ride
There are alternatives, admittedly. The dark one and others could be locking it out of the minds of the gods and those who could be helping them, everyone else is being distracted with equally troubling problems, the order of the scribble were as bad at their jobs as it appears or the whole shindig would have happened anyway as the snarl gains influence.
On the other hand, though, it doesn't come close to adding up. The gods don't know or don't care, despite locking whatever it is away. The order of the scribble weren't prepared for xykon's ilk (though by all rights they should have tried to handle recently ascended gods, which isn't unheard of), all the wrong people (e.g, subordinate demons) have it in their plans and none of the order of the stick seemed to have contacted anyone who could help with information, unless sending's can be hacked (in which case they were already boned).
The pertinent question isn't any of that, because pff, we knew their playing their own game already. The question is why none of the order of the stick have copped on yet.
GnomeGninjas
2013-03-05, 04:26 PM
There are alternatives, admittedly. The dark one and others could be locking it out of the minds of the gods and those who could be helping them, everyone else is being distracted with equally troubling problems, the order of the scribble were as bad at their jobs as it appears or the whole shindig would have happened anyway as the snarl gains influence.
On the other hand, though, it doesn't come close to adding up. The gods don't know or don't care, despite locking whatever it is away. The order of the scribble weren't prepared for xykon's ilk (though by all rights they should have tried to handle recently ascended gods, which isn't unheard of), all the wrong people (e.g, subordinate demons) have it in their plans and none of the order of the stick seemed to have contacted anyone who could help with information, unless sending's can be hacked (in which case they were already boned).
The pertinent question isn't any of that, because pff, we knew their playing their own game already. The question is why none of the order of the stick have copped on yet.
The gods don't care that much. They can just destroy the world and make a new prison, since they don't know about the ritual the stakes don't seem that high to them. I don't get what you mean by "The order of the scribble weren't prepared for xykon's ilk (though by all rights they should have tried to handle recently ascended gods, which isn't unheard of),".
Possibly spoiler for start of darkness
The fact is, if you know (perhaps) Dark one like situations are possible, with a goblin rising to godhood, let alone all the confirmed **** these demons have been pulling, you'd think they'd be planning much bigger then a mere mortal sorcerer, and probably be in league with far more powerful entities at that. Secondly, given that i suspect D&D has gods who make a business out of knowing and being exceptionally paranoid about things, and i didn't get the impression every god was an idiot, they'd keep tabs on one of the few things able to kill them. Thirdly, subordinate demons are messing about with supposedly world ending stuff as proof of concept, suggesting everyone and their mother on the divine scale could or should know about current circumstances.
Lastly, they have a cleric in their party and no deus ex machina level divine involvement has occurred by a good god. Why haven't they thought about how little importance their quest probably has, or at least called in the cavalry?
GnomeGninjas
2013-03-05, 05:14 PM
Possibly spoiler for start of darkness
The fact is, if you know (perhaps) Dark one like situations are possible, with a goblin rising to godhood, let alone all the confirmed **** these demons have been pulling, you'd think they'd be planning much bigger then a mere mortal sorcerer, and probably be in league with far more powerful entities at that. Secondly, given that i suspect D&D has gods who make a business out of knowing and being exceptionally paranoid about things, and i didn't get the impression every god was an idiot, they'd keep tabs on one of the few things able to kill them. Thirdly, subordinate demons are messing about with supposedly world ending stuff as proof of concept, suggesting everyone and their mother on the divine scale could or should know about current circumstances.
Lastly, they have a cleric in their party and no deus ex machina level divine involvement has occurred by a good god. Why haven't they thought about how little importance their quest probably has, or at least called in the cavalry?
The oots gods (different things from the dnd gods) are not exceptionally paranoid, they know about the snarl, know they can beat it, and don't care about the world that much. The feel no need to craft contingencies about a crazed goblin cleric teleporting the snarl into their divine realm. Everyone and their mother on the divine scale does know about the current circumstances (save the plan), the circumstances just seem manageable to them. They've realized that they'll have to destroy the world a rebuild the prison, the fact that some mortals are trying to postpone the inevitable or think they can do something with the gate to gain power is just amusing. The oots knows that the gods aren't that concerned about the Snarl and accept that they aren't getting much divine intervention.
So Durkon has had no religious strife because; there are no gods worried about getting killed by the snarl with immense amounts of planning time; and to top it off at least one god has plans for the snarl and no one saw this coming. Most importantly, why haven't they called in the mortal cavalry. Considering we have elves, there should be creatures that far outstrip a measly one hundred year old lich.
I doubt the snarl can hurt them, i doubt they haven't anticipated a gambit pileup from everyone and I'm wondering what else was in the diary Xykon has. Nevertheless, with all the time they've had, unless it's been offpanel and i suspect we can dispute that though I'll have to make certain the question still stands.
Forum Explorer
2013-03-05, 07:29 PM
So Durkon has had no religious strife because; there are no gods worried about getting killed by the snarl with immense amounts of planning time; and to top it off at least one god has plans for the snarl and no one saw this coming. Most importantly, why haven't they called in the mortal cavalry. Considering we have elves, there should be creatures that far outstrip a measly one hundred year old lich.
I doubt the snarl can hurt them, i doubt they haven't anticipated a gambit pileup from everyone and I'm wondering what else was in the diary Xykon has. Nevertheless, with all the time they've had, unless it's been offpanel and i suspect we can dispute that though I'll have to make certain the question still stands.
Yes because in fiction there's never been a human wizard that is more powerful then an elven one. :smalltongue:
Xykon is epic level. Outside of Lirian (who Xykon basically killed) I doubt any Elves were a match for him.
Incendax
2013-03-05, 07:55 PM
For the same reason that Drizzt, Elminster, Blackstaff, and others do not show up and solve every major crisis in the Forgotten Realms.
For the same reason that Superman, Batman, Green Latern, and others do not show up and solve every major crisis in the DC Universe.
It would make for a really boring story, and you have to assume they are off doing their own equally important things.
GnomeGninjas
2013-03-05, 09:07 PM
So Durkon has had no religious strife because; there are no gods worried about getting killed by the snarl with immense amounts of planning time; and to top it off at least one god has plans for the snarl and no one saw this coming. Most importantly, why haven't they called in the mortal cavalry. Considering we have elves, there should be creatures that far outstrip a measly one hundred year old lich.
Durkon doesn't get religious strife. It is his duty as a Dwarf to be a cleric of Thor, that's that.
Durkon is most likely lawful good before he is "obey thor", given that he expects this all to be part of his plan. If he thought Thor saw mortals as amusements and no more they'd be unlikely to have a rapport, (and as it stands i look forward to seeing how he deals with Thor's apparent carefree forget about the casualties attitude, depending on whether they have the oke strips bite him in the ass or not) and was steaming when Malack said the point of life was to be subservient to your masters while condemning a continents worth of people to death, presumably with a breeding program knowing Malack.
As for the other epic levels, seeing as skill gain tends to slow down, i could see Xykon having made up the gap with those who were far older and possibly eliminated many of them on his trips for leveling purposes. Nevertheless, there seems to be some people they trust, and i doubt Xykon got to all of them.
It still fails to address many other problems, though. Just to be clear, I'm not picking plot holes for their sake, I'm picking them to see how they have or will be filled that i might have missed or been unknowledgeable about. A better way of putting it would be what does the order of the stick know that we don't?
Rougn
2013-03-06, 11:33 AM
So what do you want the gods to descend from the heavens and battle Xykon? Have their avatars roam the lands burning and raping trying to find Xykon?
In a story with Gods there is normally two types of fighting. The mortal fights and the Gods fight. The Gods fight each other to prevent the other Gods from entering Earth and automatically winning. That is why they have Clerics and they agreed NOT TO INTERFERE WITH MORTALS!
Remember? That is why the goblins where created to level up their Clerics so they could influence the the world better.
The Snarl is dangerous and can most likely kill the Gods however the first God to move against Xykon could be killed by a God wanting Red Cloak to win. Its a power game where people dont know how to move their hands so they could simply be waiting to see how the cards land to move in a reactive manner.
As for the Order of the Scribbles being bad at their jobs; what could they have done? The Snarl is powerful enough to make the Gods (Around level 30ish) look sideways at it and not want to fight it head on. They are epic level but not God level the fact that they where able to lock up the Snarl for this long with it fighting back is amazing frankly. To try to have them block the Snarl from all the Gods mind would be near impossible by DnD books and impossible by 90% of homebrew rules.
They are epic level characters yes however we have already seen Xykon is stronger then they ever where. He challenged them in their own turf with their own traps and win and that was before the level or two he had to have gained so far.
I thought there was such an agreement but i didn't know for sure. However, we've already had a god openly make a move. Bearing in mind that evil gods usually don't have each others best interests in mind, the gambit roulette backing one involves is likely not worth the risk since being a god making yourself singular would probably end up a net bonus, far less risky then just using it as a pretense to crush some of the competition.
If gods are making ploys for the gates, however, with the kind of planning the demons have got going and being pretty damn direct about it (familicide), come on, they barely appeased Tiamet, don't even start with the good gods. Why that isn't coming down the tube is anyone's guess. Secondly, the gates have been comparatively terribly defended, and they're clearly not the end game here. It may well be the case that this has been realized off-panel and will wham anyone who wasn't paying attention, or not.
However, given the lack of Gonder calls for aid we've got going, i think the best of a beginnings of one answer is this "evil chalice" that's been mentioned by both quarl (small demon, correct my spelling) and start of darkness Xykon's former boss. Somethings got to be keeping them busy.
On that note, (didn't see the edit, a forum feature to notify you of such I'll check up on- yes via google), if it's truly god killing stuff, and I'll assume that army's of lower level characters are meaningless to epic ones besides, and I'll throw in some yet unknown reasons for godly nonintervention which the proof of concept may or may not be stepping outside of, why bother with guarding gates with quickly pummeled monsters instead of going with hiding them in a throwing the one ring in the sea style? Group divisions are not enough to justify being an idiot about a world ender. The gate's clearly aren't the end of all this.
Rougn
2013-03-06, 01:48 PM
I thought there was such an agreement but i didn't know for sure. However, we've already had a god openly make a move. Bearing in mind that evil gods usually don't have each others best interests in mind, the gambit roulette backing one involves is likely not worth the risk since being a god making yourself singular would probably end up a net bonus, far less risky then just using it as a pretense to crush some of the competition.
If gods are making ploys for the gates, however, with the kind of planning the demons have got going and being pretty damn direct about it (familicide), come on, they barely appeased Tiamet, don't even start with the good gods. Why that isn't coming down the tube is anyone's guess. Secondly, the gates have been comparatively terribly defended, and they're clearly not the end game here. It may well be the case that this has been realized off-panel and will wham anyone who wasn't paying attention, or not.
However, given the lack of Gonder calls for aid we've got going, i think the best of a beginnings of one answer is this "evil chalice" that's been mentioned by both quarl (small demon, correct my spelling) and start of darkness Xykon's former boss. Somethings got to be keeping them busy.
First: What god is 'openly' moving? The Dark One is only gave his cloak to the goblins and stepped away and that cloak was given years and years ago. The Gods would view it as a simple divine cloak.
Second: How where the gates poorly guarded? The first gate we saw took a army, a epic level sorcerer, and his loved ones soul, to even enter the cave to take over. And then he Xykon could not even open the gate because he locked it away from everyone evil so the OOTS screwed up making it explode. The second one was guarded extremely well and the only reason it didnt work was because Miko screwed things up. The spirits easily defeated Xykon. The third gate was found in start of darkness The elves defended it and defeated Xykon easily with taking away his magic and the only reason that failed was because Red Cloak happened to know about a undead create so rare and unheard of that not even a Necromancer knew about it. Let alone a good aligned druidist. Yes they failed because 2 gates because of good guys messing up and the third was because of unforeseeable changes.
3: The Dark One has to be one of the strongest Gods. Every Goblin worships him he is the God of Goblins all the other gods, like thor, are stuck fighting between their races for worshipers. Lets not forget about the other gods who are friends with the Dark One. The first person who moves against the Dark One is going to die plain and simple.
4: The Order of the Scribbles had to separate for 1: To protect the gates and 2: Because of internal conflict. I dont know if you play DnD but what causes the most TPK is not bad dice rolling but players bickering.
NerdyKris
2013-03-06, 02:47 PM
The elves defended it and defeated Xykon easily with taking away his magic and the only reason that failed was because Red Cloak happened to know about a undead create so rare and unheard of that not even a Necromancer knew about it. Let alone a good aligned druidist.
Correction
They didnt' know his red cloak was an artifact that protected him from the virus. It isn't that he made a Lich that Xykon was able to escape. It was that he could cast spells at all that allowed the escape to happen.
Considering that the first gate appears to have relied on pure of heart who wouldn't be manipulated (i mean look at elan) - ****. Well that's proof that he/they've got someone/group squirreled away somewhere, and if the gates are popping like this they're most likely not endgame stuff. As for relying on paladins not to go batty, well that's self explanatory.
Considering we've had our triumvirate grant Vaarsuvius presumably epic level powers implicitly to wake up Xykon, and had the Dark One inform his priests of the gates, i say that at the very least the latter is moving openly. So the question becomes what's the dark ones leverage against his allies? With their backing i can see staving off the good gods, but otherwise there's no reason to give it. I would also like the question of why Thor looks so carefree if this is truly important answered unless the rest of Asgard has been keeping him out of the loop so he doesn't balls it up. Nevertheless, you'd think they'd need his power ready to go.
To add to my first point, I'm still failing to buy team divisions being truly allowed to matter in what could be the end of their world. I can see the gates being given leeway if they're a stopgap, but at least some must have been enough of a rational actor to maintain cohesion. We've already seen hints of this in the item showing whether a gate has fallen or not.
Rougn
2013-03-07, 06:12 PM
Considering that the first gate appears to have relied on pure of heart who wouldn't be manipulated (i mean look at elan) - ****. Well that's proof that he/they've got someone/group squirreled away somewhere, and if the gates are popping like this they're most likely not endgame stuff. As for relying on paladins not to go batty, well that's self explanatory.
Considering we've had our triumvirate grant Vaarsuvius presumably epic level powers implicitly to wake up Xykon, and had the Dark One inform his priests of the gates, i say that at the very least the latter is moving openly. So the question becomes what's the dark ones leverage against his allies? With their backing i can see staving off the good gods, but otherwise there's no reason to give it. I would also like the question of why Thor looks so carefree if this is truly important answered unless the rest of Asgard has been keeping him out of the loop so he doesn't balls it up. Nevertheless, you'd think they'd need his power ready to go.
To add to my first point, I'm still failing to buy team divisions being truly allowed to matter in what could be the end of their world. I can see the gates being given leeway if they're a stopgap, but at least some must have been enough of a rational actor to maintain cohesion. We've already seen hints of this in the item showing whether a gate has fallen or not.
I fail to see your logic with the first paragraph; yes it required good aligned people to open the gate, thats why Nale needed The OOTS to press the seals, and why Elan had to press the symbol himself in the battle. But they never wanted to open it so why should they have a way to open?
1) V was strong yes but not as strong as Xykon not even close to Xykon and Xykon isnt nearly as powerful as a God so why would they care? They are not attacking their churchs, not desecrating their holy works, they are fighting each other over something. 2) The Dark One tells 1 single priest through a holy relic. No other priest knows about it. Remember in start of darkness redcloak originally didnt want to take the red cloak because it belongs to the head of the church. The top dog and he knew nothing about the plans.
Come to think about it the whole reason WE even know about it is because Red Cloak skipped ranks in the church via execution. He wasnt ready, if he ever was going to be ready, to be the head. So that means the biggest clue in the world of what the dark ones plan is comes from a 60ish year old goblin.
And clearly you have not seen a group of people lose someone close to them in that manner. They loved their lost one and blamed each other no one wants to take the blame of the person death and at that moment nothing mattered more. Not even the fate of the world because the person didnt just die but no longer existed. The afterlife and resurrection is no longer open and the party wanted blood for it and attacked each other. This kind of thing happens alot in the world.
NerdyKris
2013-03-07, 07:37 PM
thats why Nale needed The OOTS to press the seals, and why Elan had to press the symbol himself in the battle.
No, the seals were for the amulet Nale was after. They had nothing at all to do with the gate.
That had a seperate good aligned seal on it. But it was never stated to be connected to the other three in any other way than having been set up by the same wizard.
Tragak
2013-03-07, 10:27 PM
No, the seals were for the amulet Nale was after. They had nothing at all to do with the gate.
That had a seperate good aligned seal on it. But it was never stated to be connected to the other three in any other way than having been set up by the same wizard.
Maybe so that a good person in on the counter-Plan could gather reinforcements that a BBEG wouldn't know how to defend against?
Could be. What kind of reinforcements are they after though? Xykon likely knows most of the monster manual and how to beat them, and if they're aware of the other players they'd need something ingenious. Not counting the monster in the darkness, of course.
By the way, a point for the other side; how common is it to be informed of your own groups dealings by a celestial of the awful good heaven? I mean, they did try. I'm getting a sense of escalating cold war here and nobody's quite off the Cuban coast yet.
rodneyAnonymous
2013-03-09, 09:07 PM
Xykon likely knows most of the monster manual and how to beat them...
Xykon has demonstrated not paying attention to that sort of thing. "Like I sat and read the rules on Special Abilities." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html)
ThatNickGuy
2013-03-09, 09:55 PM
I'm calling it now: it's all a diabolical plot by Banjo, who turns out to be the evilest of evil deities.
If that doesn't happen, I'll assume Rich has read this and changed it just to screw with me. No no, shhhh. Let me live my dream.
FrankNorman
2013-03-10, 06:56 AM
People here have been saying that the OOTSverse "gods" don't really care too much if the planet is destroyed, since they can just make a new one.
But how does "not caring if innocent people die" fit with "Lawful Good"?
Can you imagine Roy or Elan watching Nale or Xykon massacre people and shrug?
"Plenty more where they came from."
I was just reading through Xykon's and Redcloak's fight with Soon and co, and funnily enough after calling him the crimson mantle bearer Soon said his would end the threat of Redcloak's wretched kind. Sure, he might have meant the priesthood, but considering who's fighting for it i doubt that. To be honest i think it might boil down to the 12 gods having a sense of timing.
People here have been saying that the OOTSverse "gods" don't really care too much if the planet is destroyed, since they can just make a new one.
But how does "not caring if innocent people die" fit with "Lawful Good"?
Can you imagine Roy or Elan watching Nale or Xykon massacre people and shrug?
"Plenty more where they came from."
I have yet to see any indication that any of the "technically good" gods are actually good.
Thor is the "good" god we've seen the most of, and, more often than not, what we've seen has taken the form of jokes about him being callous and uncaring.
Shred-Bot
2013-03-11, 04:35 PM
I have yet to see any indication that any of the "technically good" gods are actually good.
Thor is the "good" god we've seen the most of, and, more often than not, what we've seen has taken the form of jokes about him being callous and uncaring.
Yeah, it seems that the only times Thor is paying attention to the mortal realm, he's either neglecting some of his other worshippers who are in imminent peril (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html) or showing off (and then going right back to uncaring). (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html)
Though in fairness when it comes to afterlife time he really does go to bat for his worshippers.
jere7my
2013-03-11, 04:56 PM
Though in fairness when it comes to afterlife time he really does go to bat for his worshippers.
No, it's Durkon who's going to bat.
Thrax
2013-03-11, 06:04 PM
People here have been saying that the OOTSverse "gods" don't really care too much if the planet is destroyed, since they can just make a new one.
But how does "not caring if innocent people die" fit with "Lawful Good"?
I think that's a big part of OotS's plot: the theoretical alignments people/races/gods have don't really fit with what they're actually doing. Thor is "good" because that's what the Monster Manual says, similarly goblins are evil just because of that.
Psyren
2013-03-11, 06:32 PM
I have yet to see any indication that any of the "technically good" gods are actually good.
Thor is the "good" god we've seen the most of, and, more often than not, what we've seen has taken the form of jokes about him being callous and uncaring.
Not only that, but his angels more often that not seem to be, if not in opposition to him, at least disapproving and forced to push him into doing his job.
So! We have been reminded as to both the rareness of high-level characters, their awareness of a distinct lack of cavalry, and Roy's "ego-trip" of assuming he was the one to save the world. I particularly like the distinct lack of clerics.
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