Cheating - Why?

[Fellwarre]

TL:DR=I'm trying to figure out why people would cheat at a game with no real winner or loser. Why do you think people cheat, and what do you do when you catch them?

The long story:

I'm in a new campaign with a whole new group of people. We literally met just to play D&D, and I really get along with most of them. However, there's one who's just a little... off.

You all know the guy (some of you might be him, I apologize in advance.) He's the one who brags about his character. He's the one who tells people, 'The book LITERALLY describes my powers like THIS!' He's the one who can tell you word-for-word RAW when it comes to something negative happening to his character, but gets a little fuzzy on the rules when he wants something good for his character.

I've been watching this fellow for a while (I WAS playing this game, just started DMing it last week.) While we were playing, I always thought it was a bit wierd that he'd seemingly randomly roll his die. Sometimes he'd say nothing, other times he'd leave the die alone for a few seconds, and then say, 'well, look, I rolled (really high number) to do this, does that work?'

In comparing notes with the previous DM, we just found out he's been taking a prestige class for the past two levels, but at the same time has been increasing all the advantages of his regular class as well. I find it hard to believe he doesn't know you can't do that. I will be sitting him down and going over his character sheet with him before the next game which, to me, always feels kind of like an interrogation :P

Maybe it's just that I don't understand personally. Lately, I've been playing specifically underpowered characters, because I think it's usually just as much fun when you 'lose' as when you 'win.'

[Carth]

That's easy. People want to feel like badasses. And when their character screws up, or doesn't live up to whatever image they've made in their head, they try to contort the table situation to fit the mold they've made in their head. Edit: to be clear, this isn't even necessarily about winning or losing, it's about the player matching the image they've created in their head at the table. Cheaters aren't necessarily 'kick ass at everything all the time,' so much as 'kick ass at things which I think it makes sense for this character to kick ass at.'

And that's too bad, because they're missing out on a lot of fun. One of the most fun sessions I've ever had just recently had the entire party failed so spectacularly in the first session of an adventure path that the DM said we'd need to restart, because we screwed things up so badly that it literally made the entire rest of the adventure not make sense. Failing that hard was one of the most awesome experiences ever. :smallbiggrin:

[Menzath]

I am one of those "Rule Nazi's" good or bad, I follow the rules. This has gotten a few people in my party killed at times. other times it has saved us from a party wipe.

This guy sounds like he wants to be a "Optimizer" but the point of optimizing is working within the rules.
Sounds like he doesn't follow the rules.

At the same time I agree with you, I am currently playing a underpowered skills rogue at the moment. It is the funnest D&D chars I have ever played.

if he wants to level two classes at once... well follow the rules for being a gestalt in unearthed arcanna. And let everyone else do the same.

That or have him re-do his char. have him stay the same classes/levels/char. just re-do the sheet.

[hymer]

Winning is fun. Feeling smarter than other people is fun. Achieving goals you've set for yourself is fun. Cheating, to some people at least, helps you accomplish all those things. You feel like you 'win' in RPGs by doing better than expected. You feel smarter than the DM and/or other players when you do better than them, and when you cheat and don't get caught.

Actually, I think it's a bit wierder (if more noble) not to care whether you win or lose than it is to understand why people feel like cheating. Once the game is on, I do my best to have my PC succeed within the constraints of his/her personality and the rules (written or otherwise) of the game.

[Slipperychicken]

Tl;Dr= Because people do have win/loss conditions, and may consider cheating an acceptable means to achieve a better outcome.


People create thier own personal win/loss conditions, including things like "get the most kills", "get the most gold", "portray a compelling character", "tell a worthwhile story", "survive the campaign", "be the only PC survivor", "control the other PCs", and so on. Now there are win/loss situations, even if only one person considers them so.

I have seen people cheat and consider themselves victors, even when they're caught cheating. It's a sort of "at all costs" mentality, which transcends the game's conceptual framework. Much like Kirk's reaction to the Kobiashi Maru (sp) scenario in Star Trek, a player may see an "unwinnable" situation as one where he simply needs to cheat to win.

[ArcturusV]

Pretty much what people have mentioned. Also there tends to be with Cheaters, when I've talked to them, a fundamental schism between how they think and how everyone else necessarily thinks.

When I talk to say, 3 of my current group, about how they see the IC team it's "Well... we're a team and we go out and kick evil guys in the teeth, etc."

When I talked to the 1 guy I caught cheating it was:

"Well, I'm the hero. And they're my sidekicks. So I gotta be more impressive than my sidekicks."

[IamL]

Because he wants to impress the other people at the group, I suppose.

[CaladanMoonblad]

I've dealt with this issues on both sides of the table; both as GM and as player.

As a GM, I randomly ask casters to see their spell lists selected for the day. I encourage my players to create 3 individual lists (Generic, Nuclear, Research) that they can simply say "Today I prepared my Generic list" or whatever. I started doing this because I found it strange that certain players always had a spell on their list and they didn't even know what the spell did until I looked it up for them.

As a Player, I have to admit; I've fudged a die roll when I felt the GM was cheating with their NPCs. For instance, sometimes a villain would have infinite charges on their magical equipment when they usually only had 2x daily from the text. Other times I've reworked the order of die rolls for primary and secondary attacks when an NPC has an insanely high AC that cannot be accounted for. I had no problem fudging those rolls because it was my belief that the GM wasn't playing by the rules for his/her challenges.

If I feel that everyone is using the rules correctly, I have no problem with my character's death if that is how the dice rolled. If I detect shenanigans from a GM purposefully misruling against players, or coercing player decisions, I get Hulk Smash Angry.

[IamL]

I've dealt with this issues on both sides of the table; both as GM and as player.

As a GM, I randomly ask casters to see their spell lists selected for the day. I encourage my players to create 3 individual lists (Generic, Nuclear, Research) that they can simply say "Today I prepared my Generic list" or whatever. I started doing this because I found it strange that certain players always had a spell on their list and they didn't even know what the spell did until I looked it up for them.

As a Player, I have to admit; I've fudged a die roll when I felt the GM was cheating with their NPCs. For instance, sometimes a villain would have infinite charges on their magical equipment when they usually only had 2x daily from the text. Other times I've reworked the order of die rolls for primary and secondary attacks when an NPC has an insanely high AC that cannot be accounted for. I had no problem fudging those rolls because it was my belief that the GM wasn't playing by the rules for his/her challenges.

If I feel that everyone is using the rules correctly, I have no problem with my character's death if that is how the dice rolled. If I detect shenanigans from a GM purposefully misruling against players, or coercing player decisions, I get Hulk Smash Angry.

Though sometimes, the rule-bending is supposed to be a big part of the campaign. (One of the BBEG's I ran was rather stupid, but he had a magic wand with infinite charges and didn't realize that was different until way later in the campaign, when he was attacked by an army for it, since it was a very special artifact. Though if you're talking about things like Lay on Hands, then yes, those things shouldn't be fudged with.)

[CaladanMoonblad]

Though sometimes, the rule-bending is supposed to be a big part of the campaign. (One of the BBEG's I ran was rather stupid, but he had a magic wand with infinite charges and didn't realize that was different until way later in the campaign, when he was attacked by an army for it, since it was a very special artifact. Though if you're talking about things like Lay on Hands, then yes, those things shouldn't be fudged with.)

Just so long as what is looted operates for PCs the same as NPCs. If Dr. Evil has a Ring of the Ram that does 8d6 damage, but PCs using that same ring only get 2d6 damage... uh... no.

I also dislike GMs who roll behind a screen, or who quickly scoop up their d20 after declaring a natural 20 without a confirmation.

[IamL]

Some rolls should be behind the screen, but most should be open, and the only time the DM should fudge a roll is when the party will get TPK'ed due to sheer bad luck and no fault of their own, and even then, maybe not.

[ghost_warlock]

Because after five weeks of rarely rolling higher than a 5 and getting multiple nat-1s, you just decide "**** you, dice! I am going to succeed at something!" :smalltongue:

[Karoht]

We have a fellow at our table who always seems to Nat20 pretty much everything. After a while we sort of started to ignore it, because even cheating he was rarely anything but the least or second least effective character at the table.

What I did to confront it, was I bought him one of those D20 that light up every time you nat20 with it. And he used it for all of one session, and rolled normal like the rest of us for a whole day.
Then he utterly refused to use it after that. Claimed it was unlucky.

So we started watching dice rolls. He'd roll with obstructions up, or he'd very quickly pick up the die right after it rolled.
It stopped for a while when he was DM'ing (he had a DMPC), but when ever his DMPC wasn't around, his bad guys would just naturally start rolling nat 20's to save against pretty much everything.

We've confronted him about it recently but I don't expect the problem to go away for long.

[mattie_p]

In comparing notes with the previous DM, we just found out he's been taking a prestige class for the past two levels, but at the same time has been increasing all the advantages of his regular class as well. I find it hard to believe he doesn't know you can't do that.

In two cases, you can. Uncanny Trickster (Complete Scoundrel) and Legacy Champion (Weapons of Legacy) both permit this.

Incidentally, I can't be the only DM that reviews character sheets before the game starts, can I? Or requires the players to tell me as they level up what class they are taking? Or restricts sources to ones immediately available?

[IamL]

I know I do.

[Saidoro]

"Well, I'm the hero. And they're my sidekicks. So I gotta be more impressive than my sidekicks."
I really hope this guy was joking, cheating at DnD is pretty innocuous, but the "I am automatically better than everyone else" mentality he's displaying with that is pretty disgusting.

Incidentally, I can't be the only DM that reviews character sheets before the game starts, can I? Or requires the players to tell me as they level up what class they are taking? Or restricts sources to ones immediately available?
I don't do any of the three, though I might start if I had reason to suspect cheating(though the fact that none of my players ever multiclass for some reason is the main cause for not doing the second).

[Fellwarre]

As far as reviewing the character sheets, I actually usually do this, but as I said, this is a game I'm taking over from another DM. The other DM was quite trusting, and when I legitimately pointed out that I accidentally abused a power that I'd read incorrectly (readying myself to face consequences) he kind of shrugged his shoulders and said, 'I leave it up to you to figure out what your characters can and can't do.'

I figure going from that easy-going style to my 'I actually enforce the rules for a reason' style should be a slow transition. Don't wanna leave my players shellshocked.

[pbdr]

Because after five weeks of rarely rolling higher than a 5 and getting multiple nat-1s, you just decide "**** you, dice! I am going to succeed at something!" :smalltongue:

See, this is when you need to make an example. Take your least used die from the set (maybe the d4 or d12), put all the others in a half circle so they can watch and have it with a butane torch.

The others wil get the message and will start rolling more favorably. You do this with the least used, so the most used will "get the message" and shape up.

If the rest are still obstinate, then torch the bunch, but make your new set watch....

[Morphie]

That kind of player should meet a giant boulder in the head. And then you should give him a level 1 commoner and say "Optimize this".

D&D should be fun to play, if he wants to cheat he should play a videogame.

[mattie_p]

That kind of player should meet a giant boulder in the head. And then you should give him a level 1 commoner and say "Optimize this".

D&D should be fun to play, if he wants to cheat he should play a videogame.

This might be a little excessive. Just review the character and ensure rules compliance, everything should be fine. No need to go all "rocks fall, you die."

[Carth]

Reviewing characters isn't a bad idea not just to check for rules compliance, but so that you know what to expect as a DM. That way you won't be surprised by abilities you didn't know PCs had, and can be prepared to resolve them, rather than interrupting the game by thumbing through books or the SRD to look up rules. Frankly, this is more important to me than checking to see whether someone does anything illegal. More than half the time when I see something illegal I just point it out but then say roll with it as is. As long as I know to expect it, it isn't a big deal unless it's overpowered, or unique with the potential for unforeseen consequences.

[ArcturusV]

No Saidoro, he wasn't kidding. In fact he played an entire campaign with that mindset, which most everyone didn't like (I didn't DM it). But at the end of the Campaign I had revealed I was working behind the scenes to "unmask" his villainy, and even ICily worked up his "Unnatural Luck" as a pact with Demons. Thus the epilogue of the campaign had us basically leading a coalition of 6 different nations to kick his ass off the map. Which really upset him at the time and he complained I "Pulled a Watchmen" on him by twisting events to make him look evil and using his made up evil to unite the world.

Then he joined a campaign I was DMing. And I saw he was trying to pull the same Center of Attention, I'm the Star stuff and pulled him aside and had a talk with him. To be fair, he TRIED to be a team player, somewhat, after that. But he was really, really bad at it. And I had a houserule I put in to prevent his cheating from being effective which he complained about but everyone else was cool with.

[Morphie]

I was exaggerating, of course.
But the seed is there. If you review the sheet and he apologizes for the mistakes he may have inadvertently committed it is ok, but if he keeps on sliding towards the dark side of the cheat, that has to be dealt with some assertiveness. It is a game, after all, and there are rules that need to be followed in order for it to be a fun and fair experience for everyone.

[Gazzien]

If I can ask, what was the houserule you put in place? It'd be useful to have around if I need to use it in my group...

[nedz]

Aahh — the old pre-rolled dice trick.
The way to resolve this is to link the rolling of the dice to the action.
On a player's turn they

Say what they are going to do
Then they roll the dice

If they try to use a pre-rolled result you just ignore it: "So you rolled a dice, doesn't mean anything — since you hadn't said you were doing anything at that point, and it wasn't your turn"
This also stops them changing their minds when the roll failed.
"No ! You rolled the dice, that means you did it already"

Also: Character sheet audits.
I find it's better to ask questions and get them to try and justify their errors, than point fingers and voice accusations.
The rules are complex, and it's quite easy to make honest mistakes.

[ArcturusV]

Every time someone would roll dice for a round I'd flip a coin, leaving it be in a place they can see I haven't tampered with it, but can't really make out what it is (Like behind my DM screen, but my hands are clearly visible so they know I didn't fudge it). So the guy would say, roll his skill check for the round, or roll his attack for the round and go "Okay, I got a natural 20, like always, I'm awesome!"

And I'd look at the coin, and show them, "Oh, hey, it's actually Tails. Tails as we discussed means rolls are inverted this round, 20 is a 1, 1 is a 20."

I know I mentioned this in the "Loaded Dice" topic in general roleplaying and got flak for it not actually being fair from some of the guys much, much more math than I. Or the superstitious lot who believed in "Dice Karma". But most of my players accepted that as long as your dice weren't weighted towards some particular result, or you were influencing your rolls with some kind of technique, etc, you have an equal chance of any given number coming up. Meaning Inversion had no real effect on them.

Except for the clear cheater who stated I should tell him if rolls are inverted or not before he rolls so he could find the appropriate "lucky" dice set to roll what he wanted.

[Alaris]

Just so long as what is looted operates for PCs the same as NPCs. If Dr. Evil has a Ring of the Ram that does 8d6 damage, but PCs using that same ring only get 2d6 damage... uh... no.

I also dislike GMs who roll behind a screen, or who quickly scoop up their d20 after declaring a natural 20 without a confirmation.

I can agree that a magic item should function the same for PCs as for NPCs.

However, I gotta disagree on the second statement. So long as I think the DM is trying to create a fun experience for all the players, then I trust him when he rolls behind the screen. I know for a fact that my DM has fudged rolls in favor of the PCs, be it to have them survive, or to let them be awesome.

Hell, I roll behind the screen when I can, unless a player becomes uppity about "Rules Lawyering." Then I let the dice fall as they may, on the table, even if it means a player dying to something trivial.

[KillianHawkeye]

People like that are sociopaths. You cannot hope to understand a reason for what they do or do not do. Just understand that they are crazy and try not to upset them.

[Razanir]

See, this is when you need to make an example. Take your least used die from the set (maybe the d4 or d12), put all the others in a half circle so they can watch and have it with a butane torch.

The others wil get the message and will start rolling more favorably. You do this with the least used, so the most used will "get the message" and shape up.

If the rest are still obstinate, then torch the bunch, but make your new set watch....

d12. All they're good for is greataxes and the hp of barbarians and dragons

[Karoht]

Hit points and Skill points are commonly fudged on character sheets I find.

That guy, who rolls nat 20's all the time? He had an absurd number of hit points for some reason, enough that it caused pretty much everyone to wonder how.
So we just did some basic math. We figured out what his maximum hit points should have been and what minimum would have been (min for our table is half the die value) and sure enough, he was no where near within that set of values.
First he argued that he rolled max every time. To which we pointed out that he was above the maximum. Then he tried to say he was rolling the wrong dice for hit die. We calculated it with a 12, he was absurdly over that. So we asked what dice he was rolling, he didn't answer.

But on the flip side, we discovered that half the people at the table had below minimum hit points for some reason. The sorcerer was rolling the wrong die (6's in pathfinder instead of 4's for 3.5, easy mistake to make) one person forgot to add con every level, one person took toughness and completely forgot to add on the hit points (like, all of them), and one we could only explain as he forgot that minimum value for us is half the die, and must have rolled a few 1's and took them, rather than adjusting.

TL;DR-Audits are a good idea pretty much every other level up, or maybe every three. An experienced DM can fly though them, sometimes they benefit the player, sometimes they benefit the DM.

[Miriad]

I've had this happen to me. I suggest the following:

1) Ask for all the character sheets. This way it is less obvious that you are simply investigating one person. And you can actually check every sheet. For the players that actually did make an impecable sheet (No cheating, correct math, everyone ok or almost perfect) then you can give them a small bonus. Maybe some experience, a small magical item, or some gold. Thats up to you. But they will appreciate it and it will give the message that "doing your sheets correctly is rewarded".

2) "First you call the action then you roll the dice". I had to force this rule on my group since I saw they rolled the dice a lot and didnt call any action when it was a low roll (Specially on very low ones).

[Menzath]

For the sheet audit thing, I like to clear/ be cleared by the DM on any feat/skill trick/spell I get on any char.
So you could just tell your players that you would like to have a realtime review when they level.
Super fast and fairly easy.
Skill points can be a real pain though, to review and to spend for high skill chars, so we normally skip those.

And if he wants to be the "Hero"... don't play DnD, it is a group game.

If he really wants to be the hero play a paladin/cleric/bard/sorc and have lot's of social skills.
That way you get to be the center of attention with NPC's thanks to skills/CHA.

If he wants to be the I can win any fight type.... well thats a little harder for everyone but full casters. Which requires a bit of planning and careful spell selection.

[nedz]

d12. All they're good for is greataxes and the hp of barbarians and dragons
Or Rainbow Blast :smallbiggrin:


Skill points can be a real pain though, to review and to spend for high skill chars, so we normally skip those.

Most experienced players have skills which they max, others which they take to a set value (usually 5) and others they bung 1 point in.

[TuggyNE]

d12. All they're good for is greataxes and the hp of barbarians and dragons

And undead. :smallwink:

[CaladanMoonblad]

I can agree that a magic item should function the same for PCs as for NPCs.

However, I gotta disagree on the second statement. So long as I think the DM is trying to create a fun experience for all the players, then I trust him when he rolls behind the screen. I know for a fact that my DM has fudged rolls in favor of the PCs, be it to have them survive, or to let them be awesome.

Hell, I roll behind the screen when I can, unless a player becomes uppity about "Rules Lawyering." Then I let the dice fall as they may, on the table, even if it means a player dying to something trivial.

I did type "If I detect shenanigans from a GM purposefully misruling against players, or coercing player decisions, I get Hulk Smash Angry." earlier in this post-> as a GM, I have no problem fudging a die roll FOR the PCs, because dying because someone rolls a 1 on a Fortitude against 2d6 Con damage via poison, and I roll two 6s and that character is a caster with a con of 10? Yeah... that sucks the fun right out of the story.

It's when GMs decide to beat on a particular player; I once had a GM target my character for 5 rounds straight for all the NPCs on the battleboard when there were 4 other perfectly suitable PC targets until my character was dead. And for what? Something to do with how I played a snooty elf. Apparently the GM didn't like snooty elves, but had okayed my character. I didn't play with that group ever again.

[pbdr]

I did type "If I detect shenanigans from a GM purposefully misruling against players, or coercing player decisions, I get Hulk Smash Angry." earlier in this post-> as a GM, I have no problem fudging a die roll FOR the PCs, because dying because someone rolls a 1 on a Fortitude against 2d6 Con damage via poison, and I roll two 6s and that character is a caster with a con of 10? Yeah... that sucks the fun right out of the story.

It's when GMs decide to beat on a particular player; I once had a GM target my character for 5 rounds straight for all the NPCs on the battleboard when there were 4 other perfectly suitable PC targets until my character was dead. And for what? Something to do with how I played a snooty elf. Apparently the GM didn't like snooty elves, but had okayed my character. I didn't play with that group ever again.

I agree, fudging die rolls is a DM caveat. But should only be done to enhance. It is "rule zero" but more important than that is that the DM is supposed to make it fun for everyone....

[Alaris]

I did type "If I detect shenanigans from a GM purposefully misruling against players, or coercing player decisions, I get Hulk Smash Angry." earlier in this post-> as a GM, I have no problem fudging a die roll FOR the PCs, because dying because someone rolls a 1 on a Fortitude against 2d6 Con damage via poison, and I roll two 6s and that character is a caster with a con of 10? Yeah... that sucks the fun right out of the story.

It's when GMs decide to beat on a particular player; I once had a GM target my character for 5 rounds straight for all the NPCs on the battleboard when there were 4 other perfectly suitable PC targets until my character was dead. And for what? Something to do with how I played a snooty elf. Apparently the GM didn't like snooty elves, but had okayed my character. I didn't play with that group ever again.

Ah, okay. Sorry for jumping on you like that. Did not mean to offend.

[IamL]

Sometimes, as a DM, I feel like new players feel like I'm trying to kill them, which, in their minds, justifies cheating. But it sounds like this person is a veteran D&D player, so it doesn't really apply.

[Dimers]

At least once I lied about a skill roll result because I was sick of being entirely ineffective. It's not fun to sit and wait through a couple hours of other people getting the spotlight (while you get crickets) because a little piece of plastic said so. The little piece of plastic is WRONG, darnitall! If I have to make up my own result to fulfill my purpose in playing -- that is, to have fun -- then I might just do it.

Ironically, when there's a cost for failure besides boredom, this is not a problem for me. When a bad result injures the character, makes them look ridiculous, ruins the party's plan or what-have-you, that's fine. It's when the bad result means that the DM says "Nothing happens. Jean, what does Ashtarak do next?" and I sit for forty minutes completely uninvolved, THAT is when I feel inclined to simply decide what the 'roll' is going to be.

There have also been a couple times I've realized "Oh crap, wait, I couldn't have done that because blahdeblah" but not done anything to correct the problem. That's more about reducing chaos at the table and avoiding retconning issues. Sometimes it's not worth the hassle of trying to fix my oversight. Doesn't sound like the OP's cheater has this version of the problem, though.

[Ravanan]

I admit I've fudged a few die rolls as a player (almost always on skill checks). I also usually play support characters and will occasionally fudge rolls DOWN to balance it out, and never fudge to or from a nat1 or nat20.

"My wizard pulls out his xbow and fires."
*Rolls a 17 for a total of 23 vs AC 19 on a weaker golem...*
"Welp, total of 15, I missed guys. Sorry." (and given how much hp the thing had when we ran away and how well my d8 was rolling, we had a teammate who might not have died that evening had I hit there...said teammate decided to tank a pair of stained glass golems, so it's not too surprising what happened to him...)
EDIT: (I should also point out that we were pretty much tapped out at this point, so I didn't have any better spells to use that I knew of...ray of frost would have dominated that fight for us).

[Story]

Incidentally, I can't be the only DM that reviews character sheets before the game starts, can I? Or requires the players to tell me as they level up what class they are taking? Or restricts sources to ones immediately available?

I thought all DMs did this. DMs are supposed to tailor the game to the abilities of the party, right? How can you do that without knowing what any of the players are doing?



Most experienced players have skills which they max, others which they take to a set value (usually 5) and others they bung 1 point in.

Well prereqs will lead to taking skills at various random values, and there are a few other situations in which you have odd patterns of skills, but that's mostly the case.

[Dark.Revenant]

I have never cheated in an RPG. It just doesn't appeal to me in any way, shape or form.

However, most dice are inherently imbalanced. Roll a few of your dice and plot the results; you'll be surprised. I rolled my d20 around 400 times and recorded each one:
http://www.sc2mafia.com/junk/Dice.png

To my surprise, my d20 almost never rolls 1s. Lucky me, I guess.

[Carth]

If you do enough statistical analysis on a given die, you might in fact find that its results aren't well distributed, simply because dice are not perfectly machined. It's unlikely this effects most dice significantly, but it's possible that a large empty cavity or some other defect could result in the weight not being evenly distributed, make the die more likely to land with its heavy side down.

[sabelo2000]

As DM, I keep all my party's character sheets in a large folder between games, along with the maps and campaign notes, and the Bag o' Communal Dice. It saves the occasional problem of, "Oh crap, I left my character at home." It also gives me a chance to double-check the character sheets, and I keep Xerox copies of them too.

Not only expedient and helpful, but helps avoid cheating as well.

[Ravanan]

Every couple of levels, my DM has the entire party update on Hero Lab so he can see all of our stats (and, if need be due to absence, dmpc us so we're not totally left out of the loots).

[Squirrel_Dude]

Why Cheat? Easy. Failure is annoying, and cheating allows you to not fail when you don't want

[ArcturusV]

Like the old Doom II manual used to say. "A marine never cheats... unless he has to. But if you cheat, AND lose, then you're beyond redemption."

[RFLS]

See, this is when you need to make an example. Take your least used die from the set (maybe the d4 or d12), put all the others in a half circle so they can watch and have it with a butane torch.

The others wil get the message and will start rolling more favorably. You do this with the least used, so the most used will "get the message" and shape up.

If the rest are still obstinate, then torch the bunch, but make your new set watch....

I'm still laughing... I should go get a blowtorch, I have dice that vary wildly on a session by session basis.

[Carth]

Being inanimate objects, dice are better candidates for continuous torture, unending torture, if you want to send a message to other dice.

[kardar233]

Being inanimate objects, dice are better candidates for continuous torture, unending torture, if you want to send a message to other dice.

Much less mess than blowtorching a DM that rolls too well, too...

Disclaimer: In case it wasn't clear, DON'T DO THAT. DMs are hard to find, and the stains take ages to get out.

Disclaimer: I haven't done this. *whistles innocently*

[Lorsa]

The only times I cheat is when I am the DM and then only EVER in the players' favor. If I get 'lucky' and roll omgwtfdamage for a monster that I know will kill a player but I don't think it should happen I just cheat and tell them he did less damage.

Players cheating for themselves though is something I hate (and DM's who cheat because they think they have to 'win'). Cheating in general, in all games, be it roleplaying, computer or sports is something I absolutely hate. Catching a cheater, a real honest-to-God cheater (not just someone who made some calculation error) brings me into a maddening rage that may end badly for one of us. Cheating defeats the purpose of playing altogether.

[Devmaar]

In two cases, you can. Uncanny Trickster (Complete Scoundrel) and Legacy Champion (Weapons of Legacy) both permit this.

Incidentally, I can't be the only DM that reviews character sheets before the game starts, can I? Or requires the players to tell me as they level up what class they are taking? Or restricts sources to ones immediately available?

In one of my groups, the DM trusts us to build our own characters and doesn't look into them beyond a general description of the character (except for the one player whose characters the DM pretty much builds for him...).

In the other group, we don't have to tell the DM what we do on level up, but we are asked to let him know if we multiclass. For the most part the players are trusted to manage their own characters (although again, there's one player who relies heavily on help)


I can agree that a magic item should function the same for PCs as for NPCs.

However, I gotta disagree on the second statement. So long as I think the DM is trying to create a fun experience for all the players, then I trust him when he rolls behind the screen. I know for a fact that my DM has fudged rolls in favor of the PCs, be it to have them survive, or to let them be awesome.

Hell, I roll behind the screen when I can, unless a player becomes uppity about "Rules Lawyering." Then I let the dice fall as they may, on the table, even if it means a player dying to something trivial.

In one of my groups, all rolls are in the open and played as they fall. This led to 3 character deaths between late september and the mid december of last year. My own character got to -8 in a random encounter.
In the other game the DM rolls behind a screen, but I'm pretty sure he calls them as they are, one character died to crit in a routine arena fight while in that same fight the enemy failed a DC 5 balance check.
I don't mind it either way, but I think I'd be disappointed if I thought a DM was fudging to keep my character alive.


There have also been a couple times I've realized "Oh crap, wait, I couldn't have done that because blahdeblah" but not done anything to correct the problem. That's more about reducing chaos at the table and avoiding retconning issues. Sometimes it's not worth the hassle of trying to fix my oversight. Doesn't sound like the OP's cheater has this version of the problem, though.

Yeah, I once helped win a fight through enthusiastic application of the Daze spell, later I realised it only affected humanoids. I didn't feel the need to point that out since it was too late to go back and change it, and we were unlikely to meet many more enemies below the HD cap anyway.

[koboldish]

First off, just talk to the guy. It he doesn't realise he's cheating, correct him, and don't do anything else. It seems like this is pretty deliberate though, so I would give him a warning, have him remake his character, and then kick him out if it keeps happening.

I think party death is necessary, although my characters have only died 7 times, compared to the 40's of other party members (then again, I play a wizard). Without a challenge, why would you play? There's simply no point.

[Fyermind]

Te only time I had a player cheat in a campaign of mine, it was because he had very little experience and didn't understand a lot of the concepts. There were only three players, and the other two had reasonable experience. I'd tried to help him build his character so he'd be effective, but he decided he wanted to play a thief no matter what.

He decided rogue was the ideal class for thief. He was playing with a low op cleric (no turning shenanigans, decent spell selection), and a warlock.

Generally he had a hard time landing damage, because he was the only one making lots of melee attacks. He started fudging attack rolls.

Unfortunately for him my eyes were faster and I caught on from what was probably the very beginning. I let it slide for the first day and then talked to him about it at the end of the day. He refused to admit to having fudged any die rolls, so I told him I'd be watching more closely the next time. I offered to help him increase his optimization so he'd have higher attack rolls.

In the treasure that turned up the next day I tried to help fix things a bit. The cleric got a way to extend for free any spell cast on a willing target 3/day.

The warlock got an item that allowed him to swap one of his invocations out 1/day. He'd made a really bad choice, but also had shatter. He didn't like how he was starting to shatter everything in sight. He felt like it didn't fit his character model.

The Rogue got a set of lenses that gave him +4 to hit against flatfooted targets and gave him a chance to "snipe" in melee against flatfooted targets.

He stopped cheating after the end of that day when I talked to the players generally about die rolling policies.

[Story]

Without a challenge, why would you play? There's simply no point.

To be fair, challenge doesn't necessary imply character death. And people play videogames, even without permadeath.

[Guizonde]

do i fudge my dice rolls when i dm? yes. rarely, but it's mostly for rule of funny, or to "set the tone", as the saying goes.

have i already fudged my dice rolls playing? yes, on two occasions, and i explained it to the dm almost immediately afterwards why.

the first time, i rolled a 001 in whfrp when had i failed it would have been funnier. thus, my 001 became a 59 (10 above my agility score), so that i could faceplant for rule of funny. the dm said that indeed it was funnier i failed, and so long as i willingly botch my rolls for rule of funny (ie, when only my character is concerned, and no serious repercutions can take place), i can keep on doing it with parcimony.

the other time, i cast minor restoration (i believe), and missed by 1 (i recalculated it 4 times, and yes, it missed by 1). i said i pulled it on the dot, for if i hadn't done that, the rogue would have been dead.
i talked about it to my dm in private, he said he understood why i did it (stupid poison trap that first attacks dex then str, at -3 per turn, and i got there she had only 6 str left). he scolded me for fudging, but hey. it was based on a good intention. then he proceeded to explain to me again how divine magic worked from a to z, since i told him i wasn't sure at all how everything worked.

on the other hand, we've got a (bad) powergamer. so far, he's joined 3 campaigns, and two of his sheets have had to have been corrected by the dm. one is some kind of dragon disciple with bonuses left, right and center, the other is a "one man army" rogue. both are so riddled with rule breaking we were wondering if it wouldn't be easier to just rip 'em up and redo them. his last sheet is kept by my whfrp dm, and is photocopied and amended at the same rate his is updated. let's just say that we watch dice with him around... we've confronted him about this, and he keeps saying that he's not used to how pen and paper works since he's a forum-rp'er. i really hope he's the worst example that pbp can offer, since it's almost as though he knows the rules and cherry picks. and he's a bad sport whenever the elven rogue rolls beyond 30 in sneak and detection (you know, since obviously a sorc3/dragon disciple 2 will have a +17 in sneak and a +19 in trapfinding :smallannoyed:)

oh, and fun quirk of our party. when we roll beyond cruddy, we have the reflex of picking up our dice and faceplanting the table in shame, before whispering what score we got. so far, most of the time it's 2's, 3's and 4's, since we're too shocked to do it when it's a 1... we never do it for high rolls, though.

edit:

To be fair, challenge doesn't necessary imply character death. And people play videogames, even without permadeath.

this: our dnd campaign is cutthroat, but the challenge is solving it intelligently without dying. tough? yup, but death isn't the problem. it's what happens when we're not careful enough. just the threat of extreme danger keeps us on our toes. so far, we've had demonic possessions, drowning, running away, mindbreaks, catatonic paralysis, mindrape, torture, mindgames, riddles, negociations, diplomacy, alliances with less than good people, aaaaand my personnal favorite: "your character died after weeks of torture, and has unwillingly become a necropolitan, amnesiac, and paranoid to boot! good luck on THAT future campaign. in compensation, one of her teammates became a spectre bound to her body! have fun facing off against the two BBEG's armies at once!"

in other words, nothing like death, but some crazy tough situations that we can survive, if we work as a team.

[GnomeGninjas]

He's the one who can tell you word-for-word RAW when it comes to something negative happening to his character, but gets a little fuzzy on the rules when he wants something good for his character.

I believe I can explain this particular behavior. I was once in a group that was really rulelawyerphobic. I knew the rules and I wanted them to follow the rules but I didn't want them to think I'm a rules lawyer. When they were misusing a rule in a way that benefits me it is easy, I won't be called a rules lawyer (the negative connotation) for explaining that I actually take more damage than the DM thinks I do. When I was explaining how the rules benefit me I got nervous (I'm a pretty anti-social person in real life) and sometimes forget how exactly the rules work.

[koboldish]

One time, when my group was new, we didn't realise hide from undead went away when you attacked. It was a little bit OP. We didn't go back and fix it, but we never did it again. (I wasn't playing the cleric, not my fault :smallwink:)

[winter92]

My group has a player who seems to tweak things for a reason I don't see mentioned yet.

His reason for cheating seems to be "That rule is dumb, I'm ignoring it." He's big on arguing with the DM because "That's not how it works in the real world!" on topics like fall damage or his ability to use skills to do crazy ****. Being a caster, he seems to have decided that casters cast spells, so they ought to have plenty of spells to cast. This has expressed itself via his 7th level caster (with reasonable stats) having a seemingly endless pool of 4th level spells until someone checks the count. I don't think he's viewing it as cheating, or trying to be the best, he just is "correcting" the game to what he wants it to be in the only way that he knows to (the DM isn't going to give out unlimited spells anytime soon, obviously).

[JusticeZero]

Hit points and Skill points are commonly fudged on character sheets I find.
These days I just use max HP for level 1, and median(round up) every level thereafter. Much easier.
Low HP rolls can really make a character permanently useless. Get a couple of really bad rolls on the fighter early on and you pretty much need to retire them. "Uh, yeah, i'm a meat tank facing down foes that can launch Fireball, and I have 8 hp. it used to be 9 before they had to get me Raised for the second time." Median+ is fair, makes easily audited or level drained characters, won't leave you feeling like wet tissue paper, and is inoffensive.

[Farm_Ecology]

This is a problem I always dread. If you can't trust your fellow players, then the experience is somewhat ruined. And I hate to say it, but I would be extremely strict if I encountered a cheater in my game, and would basically just not invite them back. Trust is absolutely essentially in D&D, and especially in 3.5. If you can't trust your plays (or even your DM) then I don't see the point in playing.

When playing a PC, i enjoy optimizing and making a powerful character (not necessarily just in terms of raw strength or damage, but interesting), it all becomes pointless if I don't work within the rules or roleplay it properly. The good feeling that comes with making a well designed character is not the numbers or stats, but the way that character interacts with the world. I can understand why some people might cheat if they want to make themselves feel like they have a strong character, but for me it completely removes any kind of joy from it. Like when playing something like Neverwinter Nights, it's the difference between making a well designed/optimized power build, and just giving a fighter a sword with all enhancements, and armour that makes him invincible. The moment you break the rules, your character is no longer a strong player, he's just a weak God.

For me, if the character has no RP value, the character is pointless. That dragonblood tail might be a good way to get an extra attack, but I don't see how that warforged got it there. Likewise, if I were to start cheating, I may as well just go play with a calculator.



Incidentally, I can't be the only DM that reviews character sheets before the game starts, can I? Or requires the players to tell me as they level up what class they are taking? Or restricts sources to ones immediately available?

I do this. We all work as a team of sorts, so I'm constantly interested in the progress of the PCs. I also ask the players to roleplay leveling up, especially when gaining other class levels or feats. This makes the experience richer, but also means I make sure the players are making good (and legal) choices.



However, I gotta disagree on the second statement. So long as I think the DM is trying to create a fun experience for all the players, then I trust him when he rolls behind the screen. I know for a fact that my DM has fudged rolls in favor of the PCs, be it to have them survive, or to let them be awesome.


Completely agree. As a DM I need my players to trust me, and I need to trust them. Because throughout my stories there will be people sneaking in the shadows, or objects left undiscovered, I need to make behind the scenes checks. If I say "this NPC makes a bluff check" everyone already knows he is lying.



1) Ask for all the character sheets. This way it is less obvious that you are simply investigating one person. And you can actually check every sheet. For the players that actually did make an impecable sheet (No cheating, correct math, everyone ok or almost perfect) then you can give them a small bonus. Maybe some experience, a small magical item, or some gold. Thats up to you. But they will appreciate it and it will give the message that "doing your sheets correctly is rewarded".

I'll always keep a brief summary of all my players character sheets, detailing saves skills and so on. Because I make so many rolls behind the scenes its essential know this. But more importantly, I need to know whether my players will be able to handle what I'm going to throw at them. That said, it has the added benefit of checking their characters are within the rules. Although I trust my players.

[ddude987]

I don't know why a person would act as you describe, bragging etc... but I do understanding cheating or fudging die rolls. I'll even admit to doing it enough that it is becoming a habbit :smallannoyed:

[Story]

That dragonblood tail might be a good way to get an extra attack, but I don't see how that warforged got it there.

Hey, that could be an interesting hook for the backstory.

[RFLS]

I'll always keep a brief summary of all my players character sheets, detailing saves skills and so on. Because I make so many rolls behind the scenes its essential know this. But more importantly, I need to know whether my players will be able to handle what I'm going to throw at them. That said, it has the added benefit of checking their characters are within the rules. Although I trust my players.

Trust but verify, comrade!

[Shaynythyryas]

I've seen a few times before some form of conjoint cheat between player and dm about dice rolling, the most notable example being that time when, in front of a trap, the rogue critically missed followed by a critical miss on the save : eyes crossed upon the table and the dice was re rerolled, because, basically, death was completely uninteresting at this point of the plot (no res available, etc).

This is the only kind of player-fudged diceroll I witness. Death and failing surely is part of the game and everyone is well aware of it, but sometimes it's just not fun for anyone, player, group or dm.

[Guizonde]

These days I just use max HP for level 1, and median(round up) every level thereafter. Much easier.
Low HP rolls can really make a character permanently useless. Get a couple of really bad rolls on the fighter early on and you pretty much need to retire them. "Uh, yeah, i'm a meat tank facing down foes that can launch Fireball, and I have 8 hp. it used to be 9 before they had to get me Raised for the second time." Median+ is fair, makes easily audited or level drained characters, won't leave you feeling like wet tissue paper, and is inoffensive.

when i asked my dm about that (we start max hp level 1 too), he mentionned offhandedly about a wizard 1 with 1 hp. i dunno if it was a real character he played or what, but obviously there was more behind it. however, we do roll for each level individually afterwards, and that's why the sorc has as much hp as the rogue, and 3 less than me, the cleric (and why the monk has more than me...)
but regarding level drain, he's never applied hp drain. ability drain, totally. stat drain as well, even though it's temporary. same for xp drain. was this an oversight on his part, i don't know, but i'll ask him. seems to be his style to just be "dude. you're level 4 in a team of 5's running against encounters made for level 7's. you're punished enough, and you'll level up faster anyway".
... my dm encourages out of the box thinking, it seems.

[Oaktree0]

I also dislike GMs who roll behind a screen, or who quickly scoop up their d20 after declaring a natural 20 without a confirmation.

I don't understand this. Perhaps I see myself more of a purist in regards to this. I don't want to see the Gm's rolls, hell I really wouldn't even like to see my party member's rolls. I want a nat 20 roll to be described and I want my party member's rolls to be described. Because you best believe I'll be describing my 20's and 1's in excruciating detail.

[Threadnaught]

I suggest you come down hard on this guy. That behaviour disgusts me.


Personally I trust both of my players to be completely honest about what they're doing. We play over skype using just mics, no maptool, I can't be bothered to use it. There are many times they claimed to have rolled far below the required number, while desperate for a successful roll, even a few successes I had as DM I didn't actually want. Of course, I'm honest about my rolls and trust them both to do the same, but I always have their character sheets on hand so I know what they're capable of. Druid is a bit of a munchkin and sometimes they need reminding about their class features.

Edit: Rolling behind the screen and in secret is required fore several opposed skill checks. If you dislike DMs who make secret rolls, then you're not going to fit into a group that focuses more on stealth and guile too well.

[Fellwarre]

The previous GM and I have been talking quite a bit about this. I should set the story a little bit more: I hadn't played D&D since, literally, right about the time 4th ed came out, and since all of our group back then had the 3.0 books, we never really got into 3.5

This current group is 3.5 players. Two newbies, two powergamers, my wife and I (who are more story focused than anything) and a fairly reluctant GM. the possible 'cheater' is one of the two min/maxers.

I took over running the game from the reluctant GM last weekend was our first game. The 'cheater' is playing a class that I had ZERO familiarity with as a player, and the previous GM had very, very little experience with. The previous GM feels really bad about not following up and learning the rules for the character and, I'll be honest, the only reason that I DID follow up and start to learn the rules was that he seems MASSIVELY overpowered.

Keeping in mind that this is a guy who likes to talk (brag) about how much experience he has with this game, we all kind of thought he should know the rules, and trusted him to follow them.

So far, this is what the other GM and I have figured out he's done wrong:

He's playing a class that has a varying list of class abilities he can choose from, when he become eligible for them.

He's taken 2 extra abilities (5 when he should only have 3.) Both of these are not only more abilities than he should have, but he doesn't meet the level requirment for them. He's taken 1 extra feat, which he woulnd't have qualified for until level for another 6 levels, and he's been grossly exaggerating his damage output.

I haven't confronted him yet about his specific misdeeds, but I've been in text communication with him about doing an audit on his sheet (he's been very evasive when I talk about wanting to look at his character.) What completely blows me away? He says that if I'm going to make changes to characters, he wants to re-do his character because he feels it's not powerful enough.

:smallmad::smallmad: REALLY?!? :smallmad::smallmad:

[Fellwarre]

I believe I can explain this particular behavior. I was once in a group that was really rulelawyerphobic. I knew the rules and I wanted them to follow the rules but I didn't want them to think I'm a rules lawyer. When they were misusing a rule in a way that benefits me it is easy, I won't be called a rules lawyer (the negative connotation) for explaining that I actually take more damage than the DM thinks I do. When I was explaining how the rules benefit me I got nervous (I'm a pretty anti-social person in real life) and sometimes forget how exactly the rules work.

Noble enough, but I apologize - my brain twisted that. He can quote RAW when it BENEFITS him, and twists any negatives (IE:, not paying attention to the pre-reqs for an ability, or to the material costs of a spell.)

[mattie_p]

Is there anyway for you to post the character sheet?

[CaladanMoonblad]

I don't understand this. Perhaps I see myself more of a purist in regards to this. I don't want to see the Gm's rolls, hell I really wouldn't even like to see my party member's rolls. I want a nat 20 roll to be described and I want my party member's rolls to be described. Because you best believe I'll be describing my 20's and 1's in excruciating detail.

Confirmation of natural 20s is the best way I've found for players to accept a potentially nasty blow. I roll in front of players all the time, but the distance across the living room is about 4-5 feet to the next player. I also tend to have all my enemies go on the same initiative and the only variance is the PCs order around the enemies (to make it easier, all enemies "take 10"). Thus, I declare a lot of actions, then roll the appropriate dies according to a color code/order. Any 20s are independently confirmed the player on my right or left as they want, and anyone can challenge to see the natural 20 before I roll a secondary die to confirm. The natural 20 is always shown and in plain view for the duration of the NPC action.

And yes, I do describe particularly good shots, but when you have 6-8 players on any given night, efficiency is more important in my book so players can focus on interactions and debate between players/PCs.

I have and condone GM fudging for unruly dice that would autokill a PC who is relatively healthy for a single threat/attack (ie, poison damage that exceeds a heroes' Con right off the bat). If someone refuses to heal or use resources, screw 'em, yer dead, let this be a lesson to stop going on the cheap.

But I hate the quick swipe and the screen. Always have. Never can trust anyone who hides behind the screen or plays fast and loose with the rules that everyone has agreed to play by.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Edit: Rolling behind the screen and in secret is required fore several opposed skill checks. If you dislike DMs who make secret rolls, then you're not going to fit into a group that focuses more on stealth and guile too well.

Negatory Ghost Rider... roll in the open but don't tell people why you are rolling. Even do opposed checks in the open. Just stay quiet and roll and describe the consequences. Screens are never necessary to roleplay.

[Eldest]

I have never fudged a die roll, because it's too much fun to see what I can do with the failure.

For example, I had a minion in a (sifi) game who was a grenade affectionado. He loved dem booms. And so he carried all the explosives for the party. Now, we were driving along in a tank, when suddenly a robot army shows up on the view screen, and our mage (psyker) tries to attack, and causes an earthquake, knocking over said minion, and alerting a massive robot centipede to our presence. The centipede then tries to eat our tank, and we all jump out, save for the minion, who failed again, and got to stay in the tank as it was eaten. Lucky him, eh? I'm kinda ticked, because I liked that minion, but then I realize... Alfred (the minion) had all the explosives.

And like that, the boss of the session was gone in a massive fireball.

Later, I tried to summon a demon to get out of a (worse) situation. Due to numerous botches and failures, in a row, combined with a critical failure on the willpower roll, I get possessed and killed by an evil demigod. I could have cheated at any point of the process and gotten the ritual to work without a hitch, but I didn't because I was laughing my butt off the entire time.

[Guizonde]

regarding the dm screen: we consider the screen to be our fourth wall. whatever goes on behind it is the mechanisms of the universe slowly turning following our actions.

sure, sometimes we call bull when the dm says "natural 20". then he lifts the screen and shows us. it happens sometimes when he rolls natural 1's (but we're so relieved we don't really care).

oh, he makes us roll checks by throwing our dice behind the screen on occasion. the most frequent example would be whenever the rogue uses rope: tying knots, repairing, extending, splicing... whatever. that way, we think the rope is solidly attached. just the fact that we're not sure adds an atmosphere of uncertainty.

i guess you could say the dm screen for us is "flavor". it wouldn't be the same without it.

[GnomeGninjas]

Noble enough, but I apologize - my brain twisted that. He can quote RAW when it BENEFITS him, and twists any negatives (IE:, not paying attention to the pre-reqs for an ability, or to the material costs of a spell.)

Ah, that makes more sense. I was a little confused by why a player would quote RAW when bad things happen to him though also cheat.

[mattie_p]

If you allow action points (Eberron) in your game, cheating is suddenly legal!

[nedz]

Hmm,
I've never really bothered with a screen — I've enough stuff to carry around.
I may sometimes shield the odd roll with my hand, or possibly a book, but only when required.

[Amphetryon]

Negatory Ghost Rider... roll in the open but don't tell people why you are rolling. Even do opposed checks in the open. Just stay quiet and roll and describe the consequences. Screens are never necessary to roleplay.

Glad that works for you; I've known more than one group where such DM behavior would and did cause paranoia and, ultimately, revolt because the perception was that the DM was rolling excessively for the purpose of picking which rolls to use - especially since (as in your case) the DM was seated far enough away from most Players that the results were no more obvious than if they'd been rolled and noted behind a screen.

[CaladanMoonblad]

oh, he makes us roll checks by throwing our dice behind the screen on occasion. the most frequent example would be whenever the rogue uses rope: tying knots, repairing, extending, splicing... whatever. that way, we think the rope is solidly attached. just the fact that we're not sure adds an atmosphere of uncertainty.

i guess you could say the dm screen for us is "flavor". it wouldn't be the same without it.

I have no problem making a roll for a character that should be hidden; the distance ensures that I am not changing the roll but they are also unable to make out the result until I describe it (I tend to have a cheat sheet of their main skills- I also have used a white board to write down an ad hoc DC when they are trying to determine to "take 10" or roll the die to up drama.

[Guizonde]

I have no problem making a roll for a character that should be hidden; the distance ensures that I am not changing the roll but they are also unable to make out the result until I describe it (I tend to have a cheat sheet of their main skills- I also have used a white board to write down an ad hoc DC when they are trying to determine to "take 10" or roll the die to up drama.

he goes by dc (15,20,25,omgyou'redead...) and asks us beforehand our skill values. for example, by now we all know the rogue has got a +11 in handling rope, and either her dice get jinxed going over the screen, or it's a crazy high dc, since it's not uncommon for the rope to untie itself...

i'd never thought i'd dm using a screen, but a friend lent me his whfrp screen, and it's kinda become my lucky charm (you've never seen a less confident dm than me, i believe). it's a comfort thing for me, i know (despite having a pc right next to me, seeing my dice rolls if he bothers to look), but i dunno... helps remind me that i'm the backdrop of the adventure, the divine architect or something... i don't tell/read the story, i build the world that my pc's create.

(oh, and when in doubt, throw the pc's a curveball... try healing from weevil cough in pathfinder :smallamused: ... in my defense, the pc rogue/rules lawyer that kept derailing the story totally deserved getting blighted by asthma for 3 days... ok, that was my dm'ing teacher who told me to do it:smallredface:)

[Uhtred]

My players are all pretty honest, and I love it. My personal rule for dealing with cheaters in the past has been Three Strikes. I catch you doing it once, no big deal. Cut it out, we're chill. Do it three times? I pull out my d100 and the Cursed Magic Item table from the DMG. You roll a d3 in front of everyone, and I roll the d100 that number of times and apply the results to your character. You have to live with the results. I've never had to actually do it, the threat of it is enough.

[Pandiano]

I recall a round I played in for a short while, many years ago where I cheated a lot. Never since then, but in that case the DM was a sadist.
Failed the touch attack with a 1 to deliver a spell? Strike your buddy without fail regardless of their AC.
Fail a diplomacy check by more, than the DM arbitrarily sets on the fly? Target gets hostile, regardless of initial attitude.

Sometimes you have to protect your fellow players from the DM.
Luckily that was a very short round and a rare experience.

And no, talking to the DM had no result, since he thought it was 'more dramatic'.

[Guizonde]

I recall a round I played in for a short while, many years ago where I cheated a lot. Never since then, but in that case the DM was a sadist.
Failed the touch attack with a 1 to deliver a spell? Strike your buddy without fail regardless of their AC.
Fail a diplomacy check by more, than the DM arbitrarily sets on the fly? Target gets hostile, regardless of initial attitude.

Sometimes you have to protect your fellow players from the DM.
Luckily that was a very short round and a rare experience.

And no, talking to the DM had no result, since he thought it was 'more dramatic'.

that is actually a risk for the casters in our dnd campaign. my dm is pretty sadistic, but he does let us roll AC and whatever. however, despite following the rules to the letter (dispersion aka the spell doesn't go where you sent it is in the rules, right?), this has resolved in at least one pc death (orb of ice hitting the monk... for crit damage. never has our wizard cursed his dice for being lucky all of a sudden...).
we're kinda careful about that now, but it doesn't stop us from casting when there's a friendly in line of sight.

regarding the diplomacy thing, tried it once, worked (peasants followed me in a prayer to pelor, restored some hope). tried it another time, aaaaaand i got pimp slapped by the ranger who was guiding us through the woods. the humiliation was enough. he could've made the ranger leave the party, but that would've resulted in a tpk, and in his own words: "nobody likes rerolling in the middle of a dungeon. it breaks suspension of disbelief to have the new character stumble in there all fresh and greeting the party with open arms".
yes, there's a chance of death. but the dm prefers to fudge the dice so we only get our limbs ripped off, come back at 0hp, get possessed by demons, gremlins, his mom's spirit...... you know, maybe death is better, sometimes

[Story]

that is actually a risk for the casters in our dnd campaign. my dm is pretty sadistic, but he does let us roll AC and whatever. however, despite following the rules to the letter (dispersion aka the spell doesn't go where you sent it is in the rules, right?), this has resolved in at least one pc death (orb of ice hitting the monk... for crit damage. never has our wizard cursed his dice for being lucky all of a sudden...).
we're kinda careful about that now, but it doesn't stop us from casting when there's a friendly in line of sight.

You're joking right? There's nothing in the rules like that at all.

It helps if you put your sarcasm in blue text.

[navar100]

You're joking right? There's nothing in the rules like that at all.

It helps if you put your sarcasm in blue text.

The point was those are house rule conditions the DM added to warrant his cheating as a matter of self-defense.

[DiscipleofBob]

I once played in a game where cheating the dice was practically mandatory in order to survive.

The DM had NO sense of balance whatsoever. We'd routinely fight things like ridiculous homebrewed mosnters we could only hit on a critical. We were expected to bring 2-4 overpowered DMPC's with almost completely made-up-on-the-spot abilities on every quest (the DM tried to make this like Suikoden where the point was that you recruited everyone possible).

He would favor one particular player, who was some kind of gestalt Monk/Cloistered Cleric but everyone else was stuck as a base class. With lots of homebrewed abilities to the point where a comparison to Dragonball Z was not inaccurate. And said gestalt character got the only magic item in the game, an epic sword which also gave the party teleportation as well as other random stuff.

The one favored player clearly hid his dice rolls to roll several 20's in a row, but the rest of the party never said anything because that was the only way we could stand a chance. It was basically an arms race of douchebaggery.

To the DM's credit, he never cheated, he just used a pair of apparently cursed dice which would constantly roll 20's whenever he was the DM but constantly botch when he was a player. These weren't fudged rolls, we watched each and every one go.

In that game I joined as a Marshall, because while I was making the character there was a full party and all the roles were covered. By the time I actually joined, everyone else had gotten fed up with the game's shenanigans so it was just me, the overpowered gestalt character, and a gnomish bard. Every single level I took in that game afterward was Warblade because that was the only way to survive.

[Story]

Well the part about "despite following the rules to the letter" was confusing. I wasn't sure if it was supposed to be sarcasm or not.

[137beth]

Every time someone would roll dice for a round I'd flip a coin, leaving it be in a place they can see I haven't tampered with it, but can't really make out what it is (Like behind my DM screen, but my hands are clearly visible so they know I didn't fudge it). So the guy would say, roll his skill check for the round, or roll his attack for the round and go "Okay, I got a natural 20, like always, I'm awesome!"

And I'd look at the coin, and show them, "Oh, hey, it's actually Tails. Tails as we discussed means rolls are inverted this round, 20 is a 1, 1 is a 20."

I know I mentioned this in the "Loaded Dice" topic in general roleplaying and got flak for it not actually being fair from some of the guys much, much more math than I. Or the superstitious lot who believed in "Dice Karma". But most of my players accepted that as long as your dice weren't weighted towards some particular result, or you were influencing your rolls with some kind of technique, etc, you have an equal chance of any given number coming up. Meaning Inversion had no real effect on them.

Except for the clear cheater who stated I should tell him if rolls are inverted or not before he rolls so he could find the appropriate "lucky" dice set to roll what he wanted.

Sorry for responding to something 2 pages late, but...
This is a completely awesome house rule. I was in a game with another player who always fudged dice, and this would have completely messed him up. And it makes it really obvious when someone is cheating:
Cheater: I rolled a natural 20!
DM: Rolls are reversed, you failed.
Cheater: Oops, I misspoke, I actually rolled a 1.

[Dr.Epic]

You're confused why people would cheat? Have you ever heard of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_(card_game))?

[Guizonde]

You're joking right? There's nothing in the rules like that at all.

It helps if you put your sarcasm in blue text.

i know the blue code, don't worry. so, i guess dispersion isn't in 3.5. the gist of it (for all i know it's a holdover from 2.0):

as soon as the battle map is drawn and the figurines are placed, the dm will draw a star of chaos (8 points), with numbers associated. if you do miss with a ranged spell or weapon, dm rolls d8 and sees where the spell goes. if someone is in range, you resolve if you're hit or not.

it seemed so logical that i never questioned if it was in the rules or not. although it's not cheating insomuch as it's equal treatment to all casters and archers who miss their target. not just the pc's.

[Amphetryon]

i know the blue code, don't worry. so, i guess dispersion isn't in 3.5. the gist of it (for all i know it's a holdover from 2.0):

as soon as the battle map is drawn and the figurines are placed, the dm will draw a star of chaos (8 points), with numbers associated. if you do miss with a ranged spell or weapon, dm rolls d8 and sees where the spell goes. if someone is in range, you resolve if you're hit or not.

it seemed so logical that i never questioned if it was in the rules or not. although it's not cheating insomuch as it's equal treatment to all casters and archers who miss their target. not just the pc's.

:smallyuk: Your DM doesn't like Ranged attack-based concepts much, apparently.

[IamL]

Though it is more realistic than the "Oh, your Disintegrate missed? It dissipated into thin air for no apparent reason."

[Story]

it seemed so logical that i never questioned if it was in the rules or not. although it's not cheating insomuch as it's equal treatment to all casters and archers who miss their target. not just the pc's.

Neither of those have any penalty for missing according to the rules. And even 'equal' treatment hurts the PCs a lot more, as does any sort of critical fumble rules. That's because PCs only have to get unlucky once, while NPCs are supposed to die anyway.

[tyckspoon]

i
it seemed so logical that i never questioned if it was in the rules or not. although it's not cheating insomuch as it's equal treatment to all casters and archers who miss their target. not just the pc's.

It makes sense to you that a spell effect or an arrow that misses its target will veer wildly off its line of attack and potentially even return straight back along the way it came from? And that it will do so in such a way that it is still a threat? Really?

(Your DM didn't make the rule up completely, but it only applies to missed attacks with Splash Weapons. It doesn't make sense for much else.)

[CaladanMoonblad]

as soon as the battle map is drawn and the figurines are placed, the dm will draw a star of chaos (8 points), with numbers associated. if you do miss with a ranged spell or weapon, dm rolls d8 and sees where the spell goes. if someone is in range, you resolve if you're hit or not.



Random grenade rules from WEG's Star Wars. I'm sure other game systems used the concept as well, but a ray attack seems kind of weird unless the d8 resolves which adjacent square is hit. A 1 is always a 12 o'clock position, a 5 is a 6 o'clock position, etc.

[ArcturusV]

Most scatter rules I've seen in various games also tend to have a line like "Cannot land in the original square/hex if it was a miss". But not all. But it's a logical thing to me, a miss should be a miss. Not a miss that hits exactly what you wanted.

[Yogibear41]

Because after five weeks of rarely rolling higher than a 5 and getting multiple nat-1s, you just decide "**** you, dice! I am going to succeed at something!" :smalltongue:

I feel your pain friend, in a group with a guy who currentlyl has a +10 to hit I think i've seen him miss once.... I have a +8 to hit and miss alllll the time...

He never rolls below 10 and I never roll above it lol.

[Guizonde]

Though it is more realistic than the "Oh, your Disintegrate missed? It dissipated into thin air for no apparent reason."

this: basically, we find it silly that an arrow that is flying will stop if it misses, especially if there's a frontliner next to the intended target.

i guess you could say that we've activated friendly fire, but since the misshap involving the death of the halfling monk (which was so stupid the dm made him lose only 1 level for respawning instead of 2), we've become WAY better at generating crossfires for the enemy, while dodging our own.

so far, spells it has worked for: searing light (flamethrower attack), orb of ice (splash, i think), banish undead (omg sooooo dangerous), dancing lights, and burning hand during a grapple between an undead and the rogue (translated from french).

i'd also add magic missile if i didn't think it was an auto-hit... must've been a +1 arrow...

truth be told, as far as houserules go, this one is logical, to the point that we use it in every game system (well... dnd and pf... the rules are modified for whfrp)

regarding my dm's preferences, he's got a 12th level wizard (possible multiclass) in v2.0 that he's had for about a decade. grew him from level 1 playing once every month, now every season. his specialty? nuking the enemy from afar. maybe that's where that rule came from. :smallconfused:

[Devmaar]

My DM fudged a roll today. It was the fourth consecutive critical threat against my character and he said it wasn't fair...

[Story]

this: basically, we find it silly that an arrow that is flying will stop if it misses, especially if there's a frontliner next to the intended target.


Except that people don't usually occupy their entire five foot square. At the very least, there should be a 50% miss chance (which is what happens if you INTENTIONALLY attack their square blindly).

[GnomeGninjas]

i guess you could say that we've activated friendly fire, but since the misshap involving the death of the halfling monk (which was so stupid the dm made him lose only 1 level for respawning instead of 2), we've become WAY better at generating crossfires for the enemy, while dodging our own.

You only lose 1 level when raise dead, reincarnate, or resurrection is cast on you and you don't "respawn" normally. I think your dm is playing with a lot more houserules than you believe.

[dascarletm]

I'm sure it's been said, but I had a player at a table that needed to do the most damage. His character had to be the most deadly. Once my friend during his campaign set up a situation where I and an enemy were fighting in fog. With no visibility he began shooting shooting in, with a 50% chance to hit me (that we would roll after damage) he began his cheat spree. using a comp longbow he got 4 crits during 5 attacks. (19-20 range...).

Somgun killed me :smallfrown:, but hey at least he does the most damage

[Guizonde]

You only lose 1 level when raise dead, reincarnate, or resurrection is cast on you and you don't "respawn" normally. I think your dm is playing with a lot more houserules than you believe.

that's exactly what i told him. hell, i'd been lurking on this forum for nigh on three weeks when he pulled that one on the monk (although, to be honest, i'm not of the belief that monks are the worst). then he pulled chapter and verse regarding both the spell used (not orb of ice, my mistake, but an "evil" spell, i'll have to check the wizard's spell list), the scroll of resurrect used, and the rules regarding respawning (however, it may have been 2nd ed. the book seemed old, and i trust my dm with not screwing us over too much, seeing the liberty he gives us with roleplaying and improvising).
truth be told, that episode stunned all the party so much that i'm actively trying to level up my cleric to be able to cast restoration on him to make him gain back his level (per RAW... then again, seeing my record on this forum, i'm sure i've gotten that mixed up too)

by the way, the term "respawn" is our vernacular for "back from the dead". i come from video games, and despite my best attempts, some linguistic quirks remain, to my chagrin.

[ArcturusV]

A dead ringer for a 2nd edition book is if it's hardcover it's black. If it's paperback they tend to be brown with a fake "leather" sort of pattern.

[tiercel]

If you allow action points (Eberron) in your game, cheating is suddenly legal!

Yeah, something like this. Even before/without Eberron some games have had a mechanic like this, homebrewed or otherwise, be it action points or luck points or fate points or whatever, to keep characters from randomly dying / failing horribly at something they should be good at -- but only every so often.

If the resource that allows this to happen is limited and precious, then it doesn't completely rewrite the game but helps to legally overwrite any urge to cheat. Also, gives a legal mechanism to allow BBEGs to "cheat" the same way (his luck will run out sooner rather than later...)

[Regal Kain]

See, this is when you need to make an example. Take your least used die from the set (maybe the d4 or d12), put all the others in a half circle so they can watch and have it with a butane torch.

The others wil get the message and will start rolling more favorably. You do this with the least used, so the most used will "get the message" and shape up.

If the rest are still obstinate, then torch the bunch, but make your new set watch....

You have no idea how much I wish I had a like button for this comment. ^_^

We had a player like that before, the others who DMed for him just said F it and didn't care, I told him when we gamed he had to sit next to me, and I had to confirm his roll before he was allowed to pick up his dice. (He hated me for all of thirty minutes saying I didn't trust him etc, until I pointed out his amazing luck seemed really really off today, wonderwhy that was.)

As a player? Yeah I've fudged a few rolls, I'd imagine most of us have. Generally I do it when the DM is being an ass. And not the "Create fun story" type of ass, but the "I'm in a bad mood and want to kill someone" type of ass.

As a DM? I fudge dice alot, generaly in the player's favor. I once ran a campaign in BESM (Big Eyes Small Mouth) and my players were getting angry because I seemed to be rolling better then average, they demanded I roll infront of them, I said "fine I will, but expect no quarter if I do this, what I roll is final, if you all die, you brought it on yourself." Sure, seven crits in a row later, and a full TPK they never asked me to roll infront of them again.

If I'm forced to roll infront of the party, because they don't trust me etc as a DM, I'll just roll 3 of the same dice, and I tell them I'll choose it as I roll it, they don't know which I'm using, it's rare though that I don't trust in my DM to not shaftthe party, it's also MUCH harder to fault people in D&D at least in our group, some of the rules can be extremely mind-melting if you read it RAW, especially seeing as we're all from different regions and backgrounds, alot of words/sayings are askew because we have different slang and understand things differently.

Nothing that can be helped, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt though.

Someone else asked if GMs check player sheets etc, yes I do. I will browse over some sheets (Players whom I know don't cheat and just play for the funzies.) and say it looks about right, problem players, who have a history of fudging points gold etc, I actually look at in detail.

But that comes from the concept of, if you need to cheat to have fun, you're doing it wrong. I often play very odd characters because of it. And generally when a player, I roll up stats for 3 characters at once, this way I have 2 backups for when the first inevitably dies from my foolery. ^_^

P.S. I believe in dice karma.