Haley, the Wise

[Vinsfeld]

I've been thinking... Durkon said that weak-willed described half the party. At first, I thought Haley was one of them, being a Rogue. But if you really think about it, she is (maybe) wiser than Roy and, thus, the second wisest of the party (still counting Durkon). I'll put my evidences in order of rememberence.

1 - She realized that Shojo (had an gaze attack that could cause encephalitis) was smater than he looked.
2 - She was the one to say that none of the Xykon they saw was the real one. "The ball is in the con man's palm the whole time".
3 - She knew right from the begining that Tarquin is bad news. And had a really hard time convincing Elan.
4 - She knew that Malack was the new cleric of the Linear Guild. And tried to convince Durkon, but he wouldn't listen.
5 - She led the resistence group quite well.
6 - ???
7 - profit (this means that I can't remember anything else right now, but I think I've made my point clear).

I know she has points in Sense Motive, but I don't know how far it goes.

[RMS Oceanic]

Couldn't these be attributed to her intelligence rather than her wisdom?

[Ezekiel]

How much of that is Haley's wisdom, and how much is her paranoia?

[Peelee]

I've been thinking... Durkon said that weak-willed described half the party. At first, I thought Haley was one of them, being a Rogue. But if you really think about it, she is (maybe) wiser than Roy and, thus, the second wisest of the party (still counting Durkon). I'll put my evidences in order of rememberence.

*snip*

I know she has points in Sense Motive, but I don't know how far it goes.

Assume she does, in fact, have more Wisdom than Roy. The Rogue Will Save progression is still poor.

[Vinsfeld]

Assume she does, in fact, have more Wisdom than Roy. The Rogue Will Save progression is still poor.

She may be a Rogue, but with some wisdom modifier, she can have a will save better than V or Elan.

And if half the party is 3 people. The "strong-willed" may be her, Roy and Durkon (no more, apparently)

[hamishspence]

Roy's Deva suggests Roy is wise and charismatic enough that he could have "pulled off" a career as a cleric.

I haven't seen anything like that for Haley.

[Peelee]

She may be a Rogue, but with some wisdom modifier, she can have a will save better than V or Elan.

And if half the party is 3 people. The "strong-willed" may be her, Roy and Durkon (no more, apparently)

She'd have to have quite a heft wisdom modifier to get better Will save than even Elan. It is possible, yes, but unlikely.

V is likely the other Durkon was referring to.

[Temotei]

Assume she does, in fact, have more Wisdom than Roy. The Rogue Will Save progression is still poor.

The fighter Will save progression is also poor. :smallconfused:

[Roland Itiative]

Most of Haley's insights might have come from her skills and chaotic frame of mind rather than her raw Wisdom modifier. One example is how she recognizes the fake Xykon situation as a con, something the lawful paladins and Roy would never take into account.

[Peelee]

The fighter Will save progression is also poor. :smallconfused:

True, but we have Word of Giant stating Roy has very good Wis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=211493#post211493), while we have no such confirmation or indication for Haley.

[Temotei]

True, but we have Word of Giant stating Roy has very good Wis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=211493#post211493), while we have no such confirmation or indication for Haley.

I'm just pointing out that what you said has no bearing on the situation. Both of them have poor Will save progression, so bringing the progression up was unnecessary--especially to the point of only stating that Haley has the poor Will save progression.

[ThePhantasm]

I've been thinking... Durkon said that weak-willed described half the party. At first, I thought Haley was one of them, being a Rogue.

The fact that Durkon sends Scruffy to "only get Roy" indicates that Haley is indeed one of them.

[Peelee]

I'm just pointing out that what you said has no bearing on the situation. Both of them have poor Will save progression, so bringing the progression up was unnecessary--especially to the point of only stating that Haley has the poor Will save progression.

Durkon counts himself and Roy as two of the party who are not weak-willed. This leaves V, Elan, and Haley to be the third (assuming his line about half the party is literal). Elan and V both have a good Will save progression, which means for Haley to be able to be the third, she would need to have a hefty Wisdom bonus simply to match them.

By bringing up the poor save progression, I am pointing out that it is not a level playing field, and that Haley has a distinct disadvantage. Roy has the same poor progression but has been stated by the author to have a very good Wisdom score. Haley has not.

EDIT: Yeah, I just reread my first post and realized how stupid my position has been thus far.

[Snails]

It could just be skill ranks. 15 ranks of Sense Motive go much further than a natural born 18 Wis. She might also have 5 ranks of Profession: Gambling to give her ideas on how to rig a game (and perhaps a synergy bonus if she asks the DM for a creative use of the skill).

[hamishspence]

The fact that Durkon sends Scruffy to "only get Roy" indicates that Haley is indeed one of them.

And since Roy, Haley, and Elan were available to be brought back by Mr Scruffy (but V wasn't, having gone missing) I would speculate that V probably is the third "not weak willed" character after Durkon and Roy.

[Temotei]

Durkon counts himself and Roy as two of the party who are not weak-willed. This leaves V, Elan, and Haley to be the third (assuming his line about half the party is literal). Elan and V both have a good Will save progression, which means for Haley to be able to be the third, she would need to have a hefty Wisdom bonus simply to match them.

By bringing up the poor save progression, I am pointing out that it is not a level playing field, and that Haley has a distinct disadvantage. Roy has the same poor progression but has been stated by the author to have a very good Wisdom score. Haley has not.

I'm not arguing against you. You said that we should assume Haley's Wisdom was higher than Roy's for the sake of argument in that post, then said that she still has a poor progression. The same can be said for Roy. Without further explanation of your point (which you gave with the evidence of Roy having high Wisdom), the post is irrelevant. I was just confused as to why you would point out that Haley has a poor progression when Roy does as well. In the context of that post, the point made no sense to me.

[Peelee]

I'm not arguing against you. You said that we should assume Haley's Wisdom was higher than Roy's for the sake of argument in that post, then said that she still has a poor progression. The same can be said for Roy. Without further explanation of your point (which you gave with the evidence of Roy having high Wisdom), the post is irrelevant. I was just confused as to why you would point out that Haley has a poor progression when Roy does as well. In the context of that post, the point made no sense to me.

Yeah, you're right. I actually figured out my stupidity just before this post.:smallredface:

I take full accountability for asserting a wholly ridiculous position. I'm gonna say it's been a long day, and hope that sticks.

[Temotei]

Yeah, you're right. I actually figured out my stupidity just before this post.:smallredface:

I take full accountability for asserting a wholly ridiculous position. I'm gonna say it's been a long day, and hope that sticks.

No problem. The comic is deep--it's easy to make mistakes. That's not even accounting for tiredness. :smalltongue:

Anyway, yeah. I agree. The strong-willed party members are/were most likely Roy, Durkon, and either Vaarsuvius or Elan. I'd probably vote Elan, actually, but a case could be made for either side.

[hamishspence]

It may depend on how you interpret the silly things Elan does.

Low Wis?
Low Int?
Roleplaying a certain personality?

V is characterized as "moderate wisdom".

[Kish]

How much of that is Haley's wisdom, and how much is her paranoia?
Indeed. Most of those things are Intelligence, not Wisdom.

As far as realizing Tarquin is bad news, on the other hand, Elan and Haley are just a couple of stopped clocks; today, the clock pointing to "Don't trust!" was the correct one, whereas when the waitress tried to explain the concept of tips, the clock pointing to "Trust!" was the correct one.

[Chantelune]

I think Haley has poor wisdom and decent to good int. Most of the points from the OP can be int related more than wisdom and from the fact she's strongly chaotic and a rogue. She knows about deception and paranoia.

Haley is smart, especially streetsmart, but not wise. I think the strong-willed half of the party are Durkon, Roy and V.

[hamishspence]

The mind flayer's reaction to her brain was "tasty, but too sweet"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html

maybe she and Elan both have high Charisma (with Elan's the higher) and mediocre other mental stats (with Elan's worse).

"Too bland" for Durkon- I'm guessing low Charisma, average Int.

"Too angry" for Belkar- very low Wis or Int?

[Rui]

"Too angry" for Belkar- very low Wis or Int?

Both. Strength and dex are his primaries, with con as the third.

[Vinsfeld]

It could just be skill ranks. 15 ranks of Sense Motive go much further than a natural born 18 Wis. She might also have 5 ranks of Profession: Gambling to give her ideas on how to rig a game (and perhaps a synergy bonus if she asks the DM for a creative use of the skill).

It's like I said in the first post, I didn't know how far Sense Motive goes. Thanks for explaining :smallbiggrin:

[CoffeeIncluded]

While Haley isn't as wise as Durkon or Roy, I don't think she's a complete fool either.

[Stormlock]

The way I interpret the mindflayer's images was something along the lines of this:

Wis- Filling but dull, like staple foods.
Int- Tasty+Fattening.
Cha- Taste with no nutrition, like spices or artificial sugars.

So going down the list:

Durkon: High wis (16-18), low (8-10) int, low cha. Filling but flavourless.
Halley: Low wis, average int (10-12), decent (12-14?) cha. She's worth some calories but has too much flavour for too little nutritional value.
Elan: Awful (6-8) wis, awful int, very high cha (18). He's nothing but flavour.
Belkar: Awful wis, low int, high cha (Belkar's cha is more spicy than sweet though.) A taco has some fat and protein but is mostly spices. So Belkar has got more of either int or wis than Elan, and it's probably not wis given he can't cast spells.
V: Low wis, very high (18) int, low cha. Fattening and filling, and also tasty, both traits entirely from int.
Roy: Good to high across the board. Slightly less int than V but with much better wis and cha.

[Dr.Epic]

Roy's Deva suggests Roy is wise and charismatic enough that he could have "pulled off" a career as a cleric.

I haven't seen anything like that for Haley.

Yes. Wise enough to know what to do when a comrade is taken prisoner (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html) and how to respond to a hostile enemy you totally aren't just physically attracted to. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0204.html)

Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, these guys got nothing on Roy.

:smallwink:

[Procyonpi]

Both. Strength and dex are his primaries, with con as the third.

Actually, I'd guess that Belkar actually has pretty decent INT. He may not be great at deciding what's a good idea, but he's pretty good at figuring out ways to execute his bad ideas. :roy:: He's pretty clever in his own brain damaged way.

[The_Tentacle]

And since Roy, Haley, and Elan were available to be brought back by Mr Scruffy (but V wasn't, having gone missing) I would speculate that V probably is the third "not weak willed" character after Durkon and Roy.

Actually, it was like this:

Roy: available
Elan: use-impaired
Haley: unavailable (disarming traps)
V: unavailable (lost)
Durkon/Belkar: duh

Roy was the only one there who would be useful and available in the situation. This aside, I think that Durkon was exaggerating and really thinks that only belkar and maybe Elan can be dominated (maybe, maybe, Haley).

[ThePhantasm]

Haley isn't unavailable. If she is, then Roy is unvailable for holding her up.

Roy, Elan, and Haley are all "available" to help a teamate in peril.

[danelsan]

By the way, Roy got really good rolls at character creations, it seems. He is obviously very strong, likely has quite a decent to high Con as well, has high Intelligence and enough Wis and Car that he could have been a cleric. If he has any low stats it is only Dex, which is more or less OK for a melee fighter who can wear heavy armor. And he managed to keep his balance reasonably well while fighting Xykon in the undead flying dragon, so he probably has at least decent Dex too..

[skaddix]

Yeah if they had to roll for stats at birth or before birth I guess then roy certainly won big. Its like the guy does not have a dump stat.

[Scrub]

Haley isn't unavailable. If she is, then Roy is unvailable for holding her up.

Roy, Elan, and Haley are all "available" to help a teamate in peril.

Some time has definitely passed and since Haley had to start from the top and work her way down, at least according to her(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0867.html),one could reasonably assume that at some point Roy would stop being required before Haley would due to her height becoming less of a factor in disarming the runes.

[Chantelune]

Yeah, but that would be when she can reach the runes by reaching up with her arms, preferably without stretching them too much or tiptoeing as to avoid making gestures too stiff. Which would mean when she deals with the runes that are slightly above her head. Right now, she might be able to work by herself, but back then, it wasn't the case. And the longer they wait to send someone after Belkar, the more likely he would get lost and hard to find.

[The_Tentacle]

Only if Belkar didn't do the smart thing and stay put. When your lost. you are supposed to stay in one place, only an idiot would... wait...

Oh. Never mind.

[Fitzclowningham]

The way I interpret the mindflayer's images was something along the lines of this:

Wis- Filling but dull, like staple foods.
Int- Tasty+Fattening.
Cha- Taste with no nutrition, like spices or artificial sugars.

So going down the list:

Durkon: High wis (16-18), low (8-10) int, low cha. Filling but flavourless.
Halley: Low wis, average int (10-12), decent (12-14?) cha. She's worth some calories but has too much flavour for too little nutritional value.
Elan: Awful (6-8) wis, awful int, very high cha (18). He's nothing but flavour.
Belkar: Awful wis, low int, high cha (Belkar's cha is more spicy than sweet though.) A taco has some fat and protein but is mostly spices. So Belkar has got more of either int or wis than Elan, and it's probably not wis given he can't cast spells.
V: Low wis, very high (18) int, low cha. Fattening and filling, and also tasty, both traits entirely from int.
Roy: Good to high across the board. Slightly less int than V but with much better wis and cha.

Going by your own scheme, Haley would be mid-high Int (fattening), average Wis (not nutritious), and mid-high Cha (sweet). Which is a good build for a rogue with maxed Bluff - lots of skill points and an attribute bonus.

As for Belkar, the taco suggests at least a decent Int (fattening). I think the 'spicy' element has to do with personality rather than attributes (see Durkon).

[VanaGalen]

I'm sure Haley's wisdom is higher than Belkar, but I don't think it can be good. Look at her other stats. She has very high dex, good int and str, above average charisma and decent cons. She must have some dump stat. Her insights might be explained by high int and good sense motive. Adding to that her class (rogue), I don't think she can have good Will Save.

[oppyu]

I'm sure Haley's wisdom is higher than Belkar, but I don't think it can be good. Look at her other stats. She has very high dex, good int and str, above average charisma and decent cons. She must have some dump stat. Her insights might be explained by high int and good sense motive. Adding to that her class (rogue), I don't think she can have good Will Save.
See: Greenhilt, Roy.

[SowZ]

You can have a good amount of ranks in sense motive without a high wisdom.

[VanaGalen]

See: Greenhilt, Roy.

It seems Roy's dex isn't particularly high, also his charisma is decent, but not great. We also don't know much about his cons.

If Haley had good wisdom, that would mean all her stats are at least 12, with sky-high dex. I really don't know d&d rules well, but it seems she simply wouldn't have enough points to get, lets say, +2 wisdom modifier?

[Kish]

It seems Roy's dex isn't particularly high, also his charisma is decent, but not great. We also don't know much about his cons.

If Haley had good wisdom, that would mean all her stats are at least 12, with sky-high dex. I really don't know d&d rules well, but it seems she simply wouldn't have enough points to get, lets say, +2 wisdom modifier?
The default method of stat generation is to roll four six-sided dice six times, each time taking away whichever of the four dice rolls lowest, and then distribute the resulting six numbers between the six ability scores. If Haley didn't roll anything lower than a 14 than she didn't.

...Not that I think she has a Wisdom bonus. Or doesn't have a Wisdom penalty. Or rolled as well as Roy, who in turn did not roll as well as Miko.