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Psycho Yuffie
2013-03-05, 08:13 PM
For anyone unaware of this series, Can We Fix It? is about taking a base class and doing what we think it's necessary to tweak it so the class adequately does what it's supposed to. Sometimes a class does a mediocre job, others are perfect as they are, but sometimes others are way too powerful.

In this thread, we'll be looking at the ranger. Below is the vanilla ranger. It's here as basically something for me to work from, but it's also a reference for other people. :)

Ranger
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th
1st|+1|+2|+2|+0|1st favored enemy, track, wild empathy|1|—|—|—
2nd|+2|+3|+3|+0|Combat style feat|2|—|—|—
3rd|+3|+3|+3|+1|Endurance, 1st favored terrain, favored critical|3|—|—|—
4th|+4|+4|+4|+1|Hunter's bond, swift tracker|3|1|—|—
5th|+5|+4|+4|+1|2nd favored enemy, insightful strike|4|2|—|—
6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+2|Combat style feat|4|3|—|—
7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+2|Woodland stride, improved favored critical|4|3|1|—
8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+2|Camouflage|4|4|2|—
9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+3|Evasion|5|4|3|—
10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+3|3rd favored enemy, combat style feat|5|4|3|1
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+3|Quarry, favored opportunity|5|4|4|2
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+4|Hide in plain sight|5|5|4|3
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+4|3rd favored terrain, favored rend|6|5|4|3
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+4|Combat style feat|6|5|4|4
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+5|4th favored enemy|6|5|5|4
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Improved evasion|6|6|5|4
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+5||6|6|6|5
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+6|4th favored terrain, combat style feat|6|6|6|5
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+6|Improved quarry|6|6|6|5
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+6|5th favored enemy, master hunter|6|6|6|6[/table]

Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The ranger’s class skills are Climb (Str), Craft(Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate(Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride(Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the ranger.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).

Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger selects a creature type from the ranger favored enemies table. She gains a +4 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks against creatures of his selected type. Likewise, she gets a +4 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against them. A ranger may make Knowledge skill checks untrained when attempting to identify these creatures.

At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by +4.

If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, she must also choose an associated subtype. If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger’s bonuses do not stack; she simply uses whichever bonus is higher.

Track (Ex): A ranger adds half her level (minimum 1) to Survival skill checks made to follow or identify tracks.

Wild Empathy (Ex): A ranger can improve the initial attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check to improve the attitude of a person. The ranger rolls 1d20 and adds her ranger level and her Charisma bonus to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are
usually unfriendly.

To use wild empathy, the ranger and the animal must be within 30 feet of one another under normal visibility conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute, but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.

The ranger can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a –4 penalty on the check.

Combat Style Feat (Ex): At 2nd level, a ranger must select one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or two-weapon combat. The ranger’s expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. She can choose feats from his selected combat style, even
if she does not have the normal prerequisites.

If the ranger selects archery, she can choose from the following list whenever she gains a combat style feat: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot. At 6th level, she adds Improved Precise Shot and Manyshot to the list. At 10th level, she adds Pinpoint Targeting and Shot on the Run to the list.

If the ranger selects two-weapon combat, she can choose from the following list whenever she gains a combat style feat: Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Quick Draw, and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 6th level, she adds Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense to the list. At 10th level, she adds Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Rend to the list.

The benefits of the ranger’s chosen style feats apply only when she wears light, medium, or no armor. She loses all benefits of her combat style feats when wearing heavy armor. Once a ranger selects a combat style, it cannot be changed.

Endurance: A ranger gains Endurance as a bonus feat at 3rd level.

Favored Critical (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, if a ranger scores a successful critical on a favored enemy, then the enemy is stunned for 1 round. Also, the ranger gains the ability to critical her favored enemies, even if they are normally immune to critical hits.

Favored Terrain (Ex): At 3rd level, a ranger may select a type of terrain. The ranger gains a +4 bonus on initiative checks and Knowledge (geography), Perception, Stealth, and Survival skill checks when she is in this terrain. A ranger traveling through her favored terrain normally leaves no trail and cannot be tracked (though she may leave a trail if he so chooses).

At 8th level and every five levels thereafter, the ranger may select an additional favored terrain. In addition, at each such interval, the skill bonus and initiative bonus in any one favored terrain (including the one just selected, if so desired), increases by +4.

If a specific terrain falls into more than one category of favored terrain, the ranger’s bonuses do not stack; she simply uses whichever bonus is higher.

Hunter’s Bond (Ex): At 4th level, a ranger forms a bond with her hunting companions. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed. The first is a bond to her companions. This bond allows her to spend a move action to grant half her favored enemy bonus against a single target of the appropriate type to all allies within 30 feet who can see or hear her. This bonus lasts for a number of rounds equal to double the ranger’s Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). This bonus does not stack with any favored enemy bonuses possessed by her allies; they use whichever bonus is higher.

The second option is to form a close bond with an animal companion. A ranger who selects an animal companion can choose from the following list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse, pony, snake (viper or constrictor), or wolf. If the campaign takes place wholly or partly in an aquatic environment, the ranger may choose a shark instead. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the ranger on her adventures as appropriate for its kind. A ranger’s animal companion shares her favored enemy and favored terrain bonuses.

This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability (which is part of the Nature Bond class feature), except that the ranger’s effective druid level is equal to her ranger level – 1.

Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list. A ranger
must choose and prepare her spells in advance.

To prepare or cast a spell, a ranger must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a ranger’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the ranger’s Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a ranger can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on the spells per day table. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score. When the spells known table indicates that the ranger gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Wisdom score for that spell level.

A ranger must spend 1 hour per day in quiet meditation to regain his daily allotment of spells. A ranger may prepare and cast any spell on the ranger
spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her ranger level – 3.

Swift Tracker (Ex): Beginning at 4th level, a ranger can move at her normal speed while using Survival to follow tracks without taking any penalties.

Insightful Strike (Ex): At 5th level, the ranger adds her Wisdom modifier to her damage rolls with ranged and melee weapons she is proficient with.

Improved Favored Critical (Ex): Beginning at 7th level, a ranger's favored critical ability improves so that every successful attack made to a favored enemy threatens a critical hit.

Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a ranger may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment.

Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that are enchanted or magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect her.

Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 8th level or higher can use the Stealth skill to hide in any of her favored terrains, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment.

Evasion (Ex): When she reaches 9th level, a ranger can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the ranger is wearing light armor, medium armor, or no armor. A helpless ranger does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Favored Opportunity (Ex): At 11th level, whenever a ranger delivers a successful attack to her favored enemy, adjacent allies get a free attack of opportunity on the enemy.

Quarry (Ex): At 11th level, a ranger can, as a standard action, denote one target within her line of sight as her quarry. Whenever she is following the tracks of her quarry, a ranger can take 10 on her Survival skill checks while moving at normal speed, without penalty. In addition, she receives a +2 insight bonus on attack rolls made against his quarry, and all critical threats are automatically confirmed. A ranger can have no more than one quarry at a time and the creature’s type must correspond to one of his favored enemy types. She can dismiss this effect at any time as a free action, but she cannot select a new quarry for 24 hours. If the ranger sees proof that her quarry is dead, she can select a new quarry after waiting 1 hour.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any of his favored terrains, a ranger of 12th level or higher can use the Stealth skill even while being observed.

Favored Rend (Ex): Starting at 13th level, whenever a ranger deals a successful attack, it deals an extra 1d4 per every 4 additional points a ranger has in favored enemy for the target of the rend.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 16th level, a ranger’s evasion improves. This ability works like evasion, except that while the ranger still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless ranger does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Improved Quarry (Ex): At 19th level, the ranger’s ability to hunt her quarry improves. She can now select a quarry as a free action, and can now take 20 while using Survival to track her quarry, while moving at normal speed without penalty. Her insight bonus to attack her quarry increases to +4. If her quarry is killed or dismissed, she can select a new one after 10 minutes have passed.

Master Hunter (Ex): A ranger of 20th level can, as a standard action, make a single attack against a favored enemy at her full attack bonus. If the attack hits, the target takes damage normally and must make a Fortitude save or die. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the ranger’s level + the ranger’s Wisdom modifier. A ranger can choose instead to deal an amount of nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s current hit points. A successful save negates this damage. A ranger can use this ability once per day against each favored enemy type she possesses, but not against the same creature more than once in a 24-hour period

Changes
Camouflage: Moved from 12th level to 8th level.

Favored Enemy: Increased bonuses from +2 to +4.

Favored Terrain: Increased bonuses from +2 to +4.

Hide in Plain Sight: Moved from 17th level to 12th level.

Hunter's Bond: Increased the bonus to allies lasting to the ranger's Wisdom bonus rounds to double the ranger's Wisdom bonus rounds. Increased the ranger's effective druid level for an animal companion from the rangers level -4 to the rangers level -1.

Spells: Increased the ranger's spell progression to be similar to the bard's.

Swift Tracker: Moved from 8th level to 4th level. A ranger may now move at her full speed while tracking.

New Things
Favored Critical (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, if a ranger scores a successful critical on a favored enemy, then the enemy is stunned for 1 round. Also, the ranger gains the ability to critical her favored enemies, even if they are normally immune to critical hits.

Insightful Strike (Ex): At 5th level, the ranger adds her Wisdom modifier to her damage rolls with ranged and melee weapons she is proficient with.

Improved Favored Critical (Ex): Beginning at 7th level, a ranger's favored critical ability improves so that every successful attack made to a favored enemy threatens a critical hit.

Favored Opportunity (Ex): At 11th level, whenever a ranger delivers a successful attack to her favored enemy, adjacent allies get a free attack of opportunity on the enemy.

Favored Rend (Ex): Starting at 13th level, whenever a ranger deals a successful attack, it deals an extra 1d4 per every 4 additional points a ranger has in favored enemy for the target of the rend.

Arcanist
2013-03-05, 08:30 PM
Bold the things you're adding? :smallconfused:

MukkTB
2013-03-05, 08:32 PM
In the other thread I already stated that the ranger adequately 'does what it should.' But assuming we're going to try to round the rough edges then we have to look at favored enemy and favored terrain. I suggest that a favored enemy/terrain selection should give a benefit that always applies, but is uniquely suited to that enemy/terrain.

For example Favored Terrain Desert could give some damage reduction against fire and some bonus on saves vs fire/heat effects. Maybe specializing further in Favored Terrain Desert gives some poison resist because of all those Desert scorpions. Favored enemy Dragon could provide evasion (to dodge their breath weapons). Ect.

avr
2013-03-05, 09:00 PM
Note that this is the PF Ranger as the starting point. This should probably be in the thread title (I know, #1 was PF too ... but for people arriving late, OK?)

I second Mukk's idea.

Some of the tracking stuff is ridiculously redundant by the time it arrives, enemies will often be flying or teleporting or otherwise untrackable by level 10. I don't have a problem with the attack bonus/autoconfirm arriving late, but full speed when tracking or taking 10 to follow tracks is an ordinary mortal-type ability & should arrive by level 5 at the latest. Similarly the stealth abilities should arrive sooner.

Late level abilities might include long distance situational awareness (In the Two Towers, Aragon puts his ear to the ground and hears the Riders of Rohan, scattering orcs, and something strange he couldn't identify. It turns out to be a moving forest herded by Ents).

ngilop
2013-03-05, 09:14 PM
Ranger Favored Enemy Benefits
3rd A successful attack upon a Ranger's Favored Enemy causes it to be shaken for 1 round. Unlike other forms of fear, this attack does not stack with itself or others. In addition the ranger is capable of critical attacks even if his Favored Enemy is normally immune.
7th Every attack upon a Ranger's Favored Enemy Threatens a Critical
10th A successful attack upon a Ranger's Favored Enemy causes them to not be able to perform a standard action and gives adjacent allies a free attack of opportunity against the foe.
13th As a standard action a Ranger makes one attack and deals an extra 1d4+1 damage per every 2 Ranger levels to his target Favored Enemy, and the Target must make a Fort save CD of 10+1/2 Ranger Level + Ranger's Wis modifier or be staggered for 1 round.


also applied the favored enemy bonus to more than just what the base Rnager gets, include saves and AC

Lans
2013-03-05, 09:57 PM
Can we up the spells per day? Maybe more like the duskblade progression, with the spell columns for spell levels 1-5 delayed 2-3 levels?

Mcdt2
2013-03-05, 10:57 PM
Can we up the spells per day? Maybe more like the duskblade progression, with the spell columns for spell levels 1-5 delayed 2-3 levels?

I agree, I think the ranger's casting needs to be kicked up a notch. Something like duskblade progression would work nicely, as would bard, perhaps.

I think animal companion needs to be stronger too. It doesn't make sense for druid to have it anyway, it was a ranger thing first (in 2e), wasn't it?

Weapon Styles need to be more distinct as well. Maybe have the archery style let you use dex mod instead of strength for damage? Not sure how to handle the others, not that I am overly familiar with all the options in PF for rangers.

On another note, I saw a ranger fix that included allowing the ranger to use Wisdom on certain skills, like know. nature or handle animal. It was fluffed as "intuition". Would help alleviate a little MADness from skillmonkey rangers.

Gildedragon
2013-03-05, 11:24 PM
Wis to Kn Nature and a bonus to IDing favored enemies? Or maybe something akin to Kn Devotion for favored enemies?

What about giving the ranger Scent?

Yitzi
2013-03-05, 11:27 PM
For anyone unaware of this series, Can We Fix It? is about taking a base class and doing what we think it's necessary to tweak it so the class adequately does what it's supposed to.

For the ranger, maybe you'd better first say what you think it's supposed to do. Because I think a lot of the class's problem is that it's not really that clear what it is in fact supposed to do.

Psycho Yuffie
2013-03-05, 11:51 PM
For the ranger, maybe you'd better first say what you think it's supposed to do. Because I think a lot of the class's problem is that it's not really that clear what it is in fact supposed to do.
This is a valid point. I think before we start fiddling around with class abilities, we should each say what we think the ranger should be doing.

I think the ranger should be an archer, honestly, and focus on archer abilities. The ranger has too many abilities in common with the fighter. The fighter is much better at two-weapon fighting than the ranger, so I say we drop it.

Lans
2013-03-06, 12:19 AM
I think animal companion needs to be stronger too. It doesn't make sense for druid to have it anyway, it was a ranger thing first (in 2e), wasn't it?

I know ranger got animal friends in 2e, but animal companions were from the animal friendship spell of the ranger and druid spell list in 3e. Which is why the ranger had half progression on it.


Weapon Styles need to be more distinct as well. Maybe have the archery style let you use dex mod instead of strength for damage? Not sure how to handle the others, not that I am overly familiar with all the options in PF for rangers.

I worry that might be too powerful, archery already does decent damage, maybe let him take exotic weapons or dex to damage against flat footed foes to represent him as a hunter.

He can apparently grap his third off hand attack before his third main attack. Probably not an issue really. Is TWF still really weak in pathfinder?


On another note, I saw a ranger fix that included allowing the ranger to use Wisdom on certain skills, like know. nature or handle animal. It was fluffed as "intuition". Would help alleviate a little MADness from skillmonkey rangers. Flavorful fluff ability not bad.

Mcdt2
2013-03-06, 12:26 AM
I think dropping combat styles save archery is one thing, but I don't think archery should be the main focus. To me, a ranger should be first and foremost the Nature Guy. Not of the "I can turn into animals" or "bend the forest to my will" kinda thing, which I think is better suited by the Druid. Rather, the ranger should be ferocious. He may not turn into beasts, but he sure fights like one. They should be at home in "Nature", whatever that means to them. When in the wild, they should be undisputed masters, incapable of being tracked, impossible to find, and having a massive tactical advantage. They should have a quasi magical feel to them, having magical effects that are incredibly subtle in nature. They shouldn't focus thier hunting on a few select creatures- they should be master hunters of all prey. An archetypal ranger, to me, is best embodied by the Norn in Guild Wars 1 (haven't played enough of 2 to see how they act in that one). The Norn style themselves as great hunters, as an army of one, dependant on no one, but very formidable, especially in numbers. When a Norn goes out to hunt, only the strongest dare venture forth to meet them. They bear (no pun intended) a striking resemblence to Beorn of The Hobbit, in that they happen to be able to shift into bears, but this is moreso a facet of how fitting it is for werefolk to become rangers, IMO.

Gildedragon
2013-03-06, 12:27 AM
I think the ranger should be an archer, honestly, and focus on archer abilities. The ranger has too many abilities in common with the fighter. The fighter is much better at two-weapon fighting than the ranger, so I say we drop it.
Dunno about that. Melee rangers have a neat flavor ranging from a "knife clenched between the teeth" sort of tree-climbing, drop-onto-quary hunter to a maul target with claw-like weapons.

Sure a guerrilla-oriented fighter can overlap with this to some extent, but the feel between that and a wild man-beast is miles apart.

Gildedragon
2013-03-06, 12:33 AM
On an animal companion, maybe giving the ranger the capacity to talk to animals early on would be neat. Or choice between a large pet or a panoply of critters?

Many small animals could give them the capacity to scout ahead, or sabotage enemies' supplies.

Mcdt2
2013-03-06, 12:39 AM
I worry that might be too powerful, archery already does decent damage, maybe let him take exotic weapons or dex to damage against flat footed foes to represent him as a hunter.

I'm not so sure, in my experience archery is incredibly weak as far as mundane combat goes, with only sword and board being inferior in damage output. Melee has dozens of ways to add extra damage to attacks, like Power Attack, Leap Attack, etc., all the staples of the Ubercharger. Archery gets... not much, actually. PF is a little better, with deadly aim, but even restricted to Core stuff, at least melee can 2H for 150% str mod damage, and don't need to have good scores in 2 abilities (Str and dex vs Str alone), nor do they require more expensive weapons merely to add their full damage bonuses. Hell, I've seen blaster wizards outdamage archers with ease before.

Psycho Yuffie
2013-03-06, 12:40 AM
So maybe the ranger has Trackless Step on all terrain instead of just her favored terrain?


I'm not so sure, in my experience archery is incredibly weak as far as mundane combat goes, with only sword and board being inferior in damage output. Melee has dozens of ways to add extra damage to attacks, like Power Attack, Leap Attack, etc., all the staples of the Ubercharger. Archery gets... not much, actually. PF is a little better, with deadly aim, but even restricted to Core stuff, at least melee can 2H for 150% str mod damage, and don't need to have good scores in 2 abilities (Str and dex vs Str alone), nor do they require more expensive weapons merely to add their full damage bonuses. Hell, I've seen blaster wizards outdamage archers with ease before.

Well, instead of just abandoning archery, why don't we create some new feats to make the two styles more balanced?

Gildedragon
2013-03-06, 12:50 AM
So maybe the ranger has Trackless Step on all terrain instead of just her favored terrain?



Well, instead of just abandoning archery, why don't we create some new feats to make the two styles more balanced?

That'd be an idea.

Maybe a focus on the use of particular weapons?
So in the case of bows:
Treat all bows as elvencraft bows (a quarterstaff in melee), allow them to do fancy things with arrows (trip, disarm, etc?), do subdual damage without penalty... Somethint like that?

Psycho Yuffie
2013-03-06, 12:58 AM
That'd be an idea.

Maybe a focus on the use of particular weapons?
So in the case of bows:
Treat all bows as elvencraft bows (a quarterstaff in melee), allow them to do fancy things with arrows (trip, disarm, etc?), do subdual damage without penalty... Somethint like that?
Yeah, and have an equivalent to Power Attack for archery. Also, maybe a class ability that allows the ranger to apply either her Dexterity or Wisdom modifier to her damage rolls when using a bow. If she is using a composite longbow, the Strength and Dexterity (or Wisdom) modifier stack.

Gildedragon
2013-03-06, 01:09 AM
That'd be a neat archery style progression. Maybe rather than focus on feats, they should be class abilities, counting as feats for any other prereqs.

So that's be archery style; what'd other styles be?

Greater range with thrown weapons? Free pounce?

Psycho Yuffie
2013-03-06, 01:11 AM
That'd be a neat archery style progression. Maybe rather than focus on feats, they should be class abilities, counting as feats for any other prereqs.

So that's be archery style; what'd other styles be?

Greater range with thrown weapons? Free pounce?
Greater range with thrown weapons would open the door for some neat halfling ranger builds.

Class Features
Insightful Strike (Ex): Years of living in the wilderness and hunting to survive have taught the ranger how to use critical points on the body to cause more damage. The ranger adds her Wisdom modifier to her damage rolls with ranged and melee weapons she is proficient with.

Feats
Improved Piercing Through
Prerequisite: Power Shot
Benefit: When you kill an enemy with a ranged attack, the weapon pierces through the enemy and continues in a line. It has a chance at striking an enemy behind them at one-half of your range. Use the same attack roll as the initial attack that killed the first enemy -2. This attack continues until it strikes the ground.

Improved Ranged Disarm
Prerequisite: Ranged Disarm
Benefit: You may now make ranged attacks to weapon-wielding arms at a -2 penalty to achieve disarming an enemy.

Improved Ranged Trip
Prerequisite: Ranged Disarm
Benefit: You may now make ranged attacks to legs at a -2 penalty to achieve knocking an enemy prone.

Improved Throwing Arch
Prerequisite: Throwing Arch
Benefit: When making a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, your range is tripled.

Piercing Through
Prerequisite: Power Shot
Benefit: When you kill an enemy with a ranged attack, the weapon pierces through the enemy and continues in a line. It has a chance at striking an enemy behind them at one-quarter of your range. Use the same attack roll as the initial attack that killed the first enemy -4. This attack continues until it strikes an enemy for damage or until it strikes the ground.

Power Shot
Benefit: When making a ranged attack, you may decrease your attack roll up to your base attack bonus. When you do this, you add your investment to your damage roll.

Ranged Disarm
Prerequisite: Power Shot
Benefit: When making a ranged attack, you make call a shot to an arm holding a weapon with a -4 penalty. If the attack succeeds, the enemy drops their weapon.

Ranged Trip
Prerequisite: Power Shot
Benefit: When making a ranged attack, you make call a shot to a leg with a -4 penalty. If the attack succeeds, the enemy is knocked prone.

Throwing Arch
Benefit: When making a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, your range is doubled.

Frozen_Feet
2013-03-06, 05:01 AM
The easiest things you can do to the ranger are making Hide in Plain Sight, Woodland Stride, Camouflage and Swift tracker come much earlier in the progression, giving ranger more spells per day, and adding back Wizard spell progression they used to have back in 1st Ed AD&D.

Yitzi
2013-03-06, 11:03 AM
This is a valid point. I think before we start fiddling around with class abilities, we should each say what we think the ranger should be doing.

I think the ranger should be an archer, honestly, and focus on archer abilities. The ranger has too many abilities in common with the fighter. The fighter is much better at two-weapon fighting than the ranger, so I say we drop it.

A properly built fighter is also much better at archery than the ranger, and I think it's best to keep it that way.

I think the ranger is more of a guerrilla class. In straight combat (including ranged), it is possible to build a fighter that is superior to him in nearly every way (reflex save being the only notable exception), but between his survival, hide/move silently/spot/listen (and huge bonuses to hiding ability later on), knowledge(geography), and being decent at archery, I think he'd make a quite good guerrilla.

Realms of Chaos
2013-03-06, 11:09 AM
Well, there's one thing that I've never quite liked about the ranger class but I've never heard anyone else complaining too much about this so I might be alone in this matter.

For Favored Enemies/Terrain, the initial bonus you're granted at each increment never grows. You might as well not have a 5th favored enemy because that measly +2 bonus will never ever matter, for example, not to mention the ridiculousness of getting that tiny +2 bonus, identical to what you got at 1st level, at 20th level. After a certain point, only the opportunity to increase one of your first one or two initial favored enemies and terrains counts for anything.

To a certain extent, I understand why the class features work like this. It would seem pretty odd for you to hunt your most recent favored enemies as well the one you've hunted your entire career. Even so, the way this is handled in crunch kind of hurts my brain.

Personally, I'd simply give a single value for all favored enemy/terrain bonuses (half of your class level, for example) and simply say that the benefits of the most recently selected terrain/enemy are halved (minimum +1). Or something like that.

Yitzi
2013-03-06, 12:17 PM
To a certain extent, I understand why the class features work like this. It would seem pretty odd for you to hunt your most recent favored enemies as well the one you've hunted your entire career. Even so, the way this is handled in crunch kind of hurts my brain.

Personally, I'd simply give a single value for all favored enemy/terrain bonuses (half of your class level, for example) and simply say that the benefits of the most recently selected terrain/enemy are halved (minimum +1). Or something like that.

Alternative idea: Have the bonus be one that has an equal effect at all levels, such as an attack bonus or increased crit chance.

Yakk
2013-03-06, 03:15 PM
Allow studying a foe, and getting your favored enemy bonus on that foe after you do so. If the cost is modestly high (a standard action, say), this won't displace favored enemies (which you don't have to spend an action to study them).

At the same time, if you successfully scout foes before you right them, you get to study them before engagement, and you gain your bonus.

In this case, I'd have a generic name (Hunter's Quarry Bonus equal to 1/2 your Ranger level plus your Wisdom bonus, say), which you get to apply to your Favored Enemies automatically. For anyone else, you have to study them specifically.

Creatures with HD lower than half your Ranger level might be easier to study, allowing you to study one Orc grunt and get the benefit against every one of them (except the high level ones, which you have to study individually).

This kind of mechanic might help prevent the Ranger from being amazing against one type of creature, and useless against others. In this case, you'd be good against one type of creature, and good *if given time to prepare and study them* against others.

Yitzi
2013-03-06, 03:40 PM
Allow studying a foe, and getting your favored enemy bonus on that foe after you do so. If the cost is modestly high (a standard action, say), this won't displace favored enemies (which you don't have to spend an action to study them).

At the same time, if you successfully scout foes before you right them, you get to study them before engagement, and you gain your bonus.

In this case, I'd have a generic name (Hunter's Quarry Bonus equal to 1/2 your Ranger level plus your Wisdom bonus, say), which you get to apply to your Favored Enemies automatically. For anyone else, you have to study them specifically.

Creatures with HD lower than half your Ranger level might be easier to study, allowing you to study one Orc grunt and get the benefit against every one of them (except the high level ones, which you have to study individually).

This kind of mechanic might help prevent the Ranger from being amazing against one type of creature, and useless against others. In this case, you'd be good against one type of creature, and good *if given time to prepare and study them* against others.

I like it.

Psycho Yuffie
2013-03-06, 05:33 PM
Allow studying a foe, and getting your favored enemy bonus on that foe after you do so. If the cost is modestly high (a standard action, say), this won't displace favored enemies (which you don't have to spend an action to study them).

At the same time, if you successfully scout foes before you right them, you get to study them before engagement, and you gain your bonus.

In this case, I'd have a generic name (Hunter's Quarry Bonus equal to 1/2 your Ranger level plus your Wisdom bonus, say), which you get to apply to your Favored Enemies automatically. For anyone else, you have to study them specifically.

Creatures with HD lower than half your Ranger level might be easier to study, allowing you to study one Orc grunt and get the benefit against every one of them (except the high level ones, which you have to study individually).

This kind of mechanic might help prevent the Ranger from being amazing against one type of creature, and useless against others. In this case, you'd be good against one type of creature, and good *if given time to prepare and study them* against others.
Where would this ability go in the progression?

The initial post has officially been edited. This time, I kept a record of all the changes everyone has made so far, including modifications of existing abilities. Also, 17th level is now dead. Can we figure out what to put there?

Gildedragon
2013-03-06, 05:50 PM
That ability should come as a part of favored enemy or a couple of levels after
When figuring the crunch of Yak's ability: maybe something along the lines of Kirin Path or Kn. Devotion mechanically? Make a Wis or Spot check with a bonus determined by 1/2 or so ranger level vs identifying the creature? Or a flat check (as kn devotion) with the same bonuses.
Edit: heck it could be how favored enemy works, giving a bonus to said checks vs a certain creature type (subtype) and the ability to do it as a non action.
Edit #2: one could give this ability at level 1 (indicating one is a superb hunter) and get favored enemy at 2nd indicating a specialization against creatures.

As to 17, move a feat up to it or the examine ability as a standard or swift action with a slight penalty to damage?