New Man Belkar?

[Alan_Pehnereas]

I'd like to point out four things;

Belkar dropped his daggers when taking off running. For once in his life, killing isn't the main thing on his mind.
As far as I can recall, this is the first time he's visually shown sign of real fear, and even screamed!
Not only does he believe that he's gotta get to Roy, but he's willing to crawl despite how weak he is to tell Roy about what happened.
Lastly, he talks about Durkon getting killed over himself. This might be some sort of guilt speaking, or maybe disbelief that he didn't get "what's coming to him".


Is Belkar possibly having a change of heart, or do y'all think this is just Belkar acting out in a dire situation that will eventually end up regarding his own safety?

[Ted The Bug]

I was wondering if it was going to head in that direction, and it seems like it could be! I certainly hope so. If Belkar's clock is ticking, it'd be nice to see him die as a (marginally) reformed person. The real question is whether he somehow ends up sacrificing himself in an attempt to save Durkon. There's no confirmation of whether Durkon will stay dead, just that he will return to Dwarvington after dying.

No OotS for a week might not be easy...but this is enough to think about to keep me going.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Belkar dropped his daggers when taking off running. For once in his life, killing isn't the main thing on his mind.


I don't disagree, but since "whether Belkar has weapons" might be relevant soon, I would like to point out that he may have picked up and sheathed his daggers between frames 9 and 10, so we don't really know.

[Sir_Leorik]

Is Belkar possibly having a change of heart, or do y'all think this is just Belkar acting out in a dire situation that will eventually end up regarding his own safety?

I don't know if this is a permanent change for Belkar, but he's definitely not faking it this time. There's no one else here to impress or trick, just Belkar and Mr. Scruffy. He's scared, but he manages to keep his wits for once, rather than acting out of anger.

[Stormlock]

I'm thinking it won't matter much. He's sitting somewhere around 1d4 Con and has been level drained twice. Scruffy has more hp than him right now. Odds that Belkar gets killed by a trap or enemy before he knows what hit him are VERY high.

[Zigg'rrauglurr]

I'm of the mind that this comics set the stage for Belkar's last character growth.

Not only he started caring for Mr. Scruffy...

He tried to invoke the "good fighter motto" (with terrible consequences).

He just witnessed the most reliable member of his team get killed and turned into an undead monstrosity...

We have survivor's guilt, coupled with self(and others) preservation concerns...

Belkar is scared, not only for his death, but because of what will happen now. He is now realizing that he needs this team more than he ever believed.
He might not shift to a more neutral alignment, but as any well written evil character he has bonded with someone, first his cat, now the rest of the Order, and now this happens...

This is as traumatic to his worldview as the conversation with phantom Shojo was.

So yes, a new Belkar will come, and will die the good fight.

[SaintRidley]

And by the time Roy realizes it, Belkar will die and they won't have a way to bring him back. Roy's going to be pissed at that.

[Yael]

You must remember that not every action is drawed on the strip, whether Belkar put out his daggers or leaved them on the floor may be a mystery (until he draws them out).

Secondly, running to tell Roy about what happened to Durkon (Roy's BEST FRIEND) may be normal, isn't it? Although Belkar always has been like a selfish little killer-mind guy, he has to know when things are getting from bad to HOLY COW THIS IS REALLY BAD.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Second panel, third - Belkar is suspended still, clutching both daggers.
Third panel, third row - Belkar is holding one, and the hand previously holding one is now holding his head.
Fourth panel, Belkar is realizing what happened, and has dropped both daggers on the ground.

The next panel, he's running. He is hastily, without caution, running to find Roy. Do you really wanna say that he stopped to pick up his daggers (just after dropping them both)? I don't feel like someone in that state of mind would do so.

[Tre of the Wood]

Well, Belkar surely has additional nonmagical dagger with him. Plus there is a +4 dagger waiting for him back with the party if need be...

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Well, Belkar surely has additional nonmagical dagger with him. Plus there is a +4 dagger waiting for him back with the party if need be...

This. Good point.

[SavageWombat]

Second panel, third - Belkar is suspended still, clutching both daggers.
Third panel, third row - Belkar is holding one, and the hand previously holding one is now holding his head.
Fourth panel, Belkar is realizing what happened, and has dropped both daggers on the ground.

The next panel, he's running. He is hastily, without caution, running to find Roy. Do you really wanna say that he stopped to pick up his daggers (just after dropping them both)? I don't feel like someone in that state of mind would do so.

Since he's got a BAB of +1 or higher, he can stow his weapons as part of a move action, i.e. without slowing down. I'd think a trained fighter might do that by reflex, regardless of state of mind.

If Rich wants him to be daggerless, he'll confirm that at some point.

[Paseo H]

Without further proof, I prefer to think that even if he's a sociopath who only recently learned to be a high functioning sociopath, and doesn't really care much for his companions at all, he'll still default to siding with them just because that's "his" side.

[Kolero]

Some people have been speculating on what the order will do to get healing now that Durkon is gone. While healing potions and Elan's new healing talents will help, I wonder Belkar might step up as well? Perhaps V will have to start making owl's wisdom a manditory preperation of her mornings? While that would probably not have such a profound effect on Belkar's ultimate redemption, it might be part of it.

[Torrasque]

It does seem to be a new way of reacting for Belkar. The old Belkar would not have been shocked and surprised that he survived and durkon didnt. He would have cursed Durkon for his weakness and for taking a bite of Belkar, leaving him weak.

I think Zigg'rrayuruaruaraurauruar hit the nail on the head. Belkar is still a homocidal maniac, but he is bonding (against his will perhaps) to the OoTS in a way he has never been before.

[Red Lantern]

I see the order actually mourning for belkar. if they have a scene with mr. scruffy either sanding all alone on belkar's grave or next to his corpse I might shed a tear...

[Rui]

I would love it to go that direction. I hope it will go that direction.

[Mantine]

I'd like to point out four things;
Belkar dropped his daggers when taking off running. For once in his life, killing isn't the main thing on his mind.
Or, he simply sheated them back.

As far as I can recall, this is the first time he's visually shown sign of real fear, and even screamed!
Looks more shocked than scared to me.

Not only does he believe that he's gotta get to Roy, but he's willing to crawl despite how weak he is to tell Roy about what happened.
Considering that right now he's so weak he could die just by sneezing too hard, I don't see what's strange about him wanting to get back to his group.

Lastly, he talks about Durkon getting killed over himself. This might be some sort of guilt speaking, or maybe disbelief that he didn't get "what's coming to him".
True.

Is Belkar possibly having a change of heart, or do y'all think this is just Belkar acting out in a dire situation that will eventually end up regarding his own safety?
He's clearly shocked but what happened. Rest will have to be seen.

[Ellye]

I really believe that Belkar is a worth ally, and he's becoming more and more of one.

I always found odd the idea of the Order not resurrecting him when he dies - he might be Evil, but he has always been a decent teammate, and nowadays more than ever. But now it makes sense - he's more worthy than he ever was, but they will no longer have a Cleric to resurrect even if they wanted to..

[Wou]

I wonder if he won't be Dead Man Belkar the very next strip.
"How the hell I'm still alive?"?
Showing some semi-redeeming qualities, becoming more human and likable then ever, doing "what's right" while in pain, barely moving forward? Low on HP on top of that.
One trap and he's a goner, "I... need ... to ... tell ... Roy... " X X

[allenw]

I wonder if he won't be Dead Man Belkar the very next strip.
"How the hell I'm still alive?"?
Showing some semi-redeeming qualities, becoming more human and likable then ever, doing "what's right" while in pain, barely moving forward? Low on HP on top of that.
One trap and he's a goner, "I... need ... to ... tell ... Roy... " X X

Probably not the very next strip, but soon. He's working on his "last drop" of blood (probably at 1 or 2 CON), with at least 4 negative levels. He's pretty much only alive and conscious by DM fiat/Rule of Drama.

Which reminds me. I think that Belkar's current apparent swing towards... well, maybe Neutral... will last the rest of his life.:smalltongue: So, about 1-3 minutes. Which raises interesting questions about his afterlife.
I'm really hoping that the strip where Belkar dies is called "Good to the Last Drop."

In D&D terms, he's likely either at 0 hit points, or *below* 0 but stabilized (thanks to the ministrations of Mr. Scruffy). Either way, if he takes *any* standard action (such as attacking someone), he fall unconscious, starts losing HP, and will probably die.
If he could use Barbarian Rage, he might get a few rounds of activity before he dies; but he already raged once today, he's probably only got 1 level of Barbarian, and his CON modifier is probably so negative the Rage duration would be less than 0 rounds anyway.
So, given his prophecy, Belkar is very, very likely to make one last semi-heroic attack in the near future, and then breathe no more.

[Sir_Leorik]

I'm thinking it won't matter much. He's sitting somewhere around 1d4 Con and has been level drained twice. Scruffy has more hp than him right now. Odds that Belkar gets killed by a trap or enemy before he knows what hit him are VERY high.

Belkar's classes (Ranger and Barbarian) use d10 and d12 hit dice respectively. He's weak, but until his eyes become X's he's not dead yet. It wouldn't really be dramatically appropriate for Belkar to die before telling Roy, Haley and Elan what just happened. After that, all bets are off for the funny little psychopath.

[kaptainkrutch]

Twenty replies and not a single pun about Belkar turning over a new Bitterleaf. For shame.

[Sir_Leorik]

I really believe that Belkar is a worth ally, and he's becoming more and more of one.

I always found odd the idea of the Order not resurrecting him when he dies - he might be Evil, but he has always been a decent teammate, and nowadays more than ever. But now it makes sense - he's more worthy than he ever was, but they will no longer have a Cleric to resurrect even if they wanted to..

In the past it would have been a questionable act for Roy not to ask Durkon to raise Belkar, since they need all the help they can get to protect the gates. Now we know the probably reason why the Oracle's prophecy will come to pass: Durkon won't be around to cast the spell and the OotS may have to flee in a hurry just to survive.

[Feddlefew]

Since the most LG person in the order has been turned into a vampire, for the sake of irony I hope Belkar ends up becoming a deathless.

[Aadst1]

My hope is that, before he draws his last breath ever, Belkar accords himself in such a fashion that when he reaches the afterlife he is greeted by a certain mustachioed man in blue, handing him a cigar rolled from poorly worded legal documents. . A long shot at best, but it would be an excellent ending for a character who's begun to show REAL character development.

[Sir_Leorik]

My hope is that, before he draws his last breath ever, Belkar accords himself in such a fashion that when he reaches the afterlife he is greeted by a certain mustachioed man in blue, handing him a cigar rolled from poorly worded legal documents. . A long shot at best, but it would be an excellent ending for a character who's begun to show REAL character development.

That would indicate that Belkar acheived what Miko failed to do: earn redemption. That would really piss her off if she ever learned of it. :smallbiggrin:

[Holammer]

Twenty replies and not a single pun about Belkar turning over a new Bitterleaf. For shame.

Do they still award internets? You totally deserve one! :smallbiggrin:

Methinks Belkar's been a *pinch* more eager to please the party since he attacked the Giant Hellhound in #867. Heck, in the next strip he's excited over finding Vaarsuvius and reuniting the party. Perhaps for the wrong reason, but he does seem to want some recognition from Roy. Also he tries his luck with some good guy stock phrases for cryin' out loud! :smallamused:

[skim172]

This line: "How the hell does Durkon get killed and I'm still alive?" Yeah, it might just be general shock at Durkon's death. But I'm also wondering ... does Belkar know he's going to die? Or maybe have a sense of it? That line could also be interpreted as Belkar's shock that he didn't die before Durkon.

If Belkar knows he's going to die, then that puts a new light on his actions - they could be seen as essentially self-destructive - "I'm gonna die, so screw it, Ima stab this magic wolf." Maybe he doesn't remember the prophecy, but he might've overheard Roy and Co. discussing it.

It might also be less an awareness of the prophecy, and more a general thought that Durkon is supposed to be the stable, long-lived one, while he's supposed to live fast and die young. And Durkon going first turns his worldview upside down.

Maybe it's a glimpse into Belkar's little mind - an inherent, fatalistic assumption that he's gonna die young and early, maybe leading to a bitter sense that his life isn't ultimately worth as much as everyone else's, which maybe he compensates for with malicious, schadefreude-laden pleasure at the deaths of everyone he "outlives." (Pure speculation, ignore)

It also does strike me that of all the people in the Order, only Durkon can be said to have had a consistently amicable relationship with Belkar, despite them probably being most opposed personality-wise among the group. Durkon's death is probably most likely to have such an effect on Belkar out of anyone in the world (aside from Scruffy, of course).

[Ellye]

I'm not sure if Belkar is having any sort of alignment change (and if any, it seems to be more prominent on the Lawful-Chaotic axis), but either way, even if he dies just as Chaotic Evil as he has always lived, he might serve as an example that a Chaotic Evil character can still honestly care about his Good teammates and show some true loyalty.

[SaintRidley]

That would indicate that Belkar acheived what Miko failed to do: earn redemption. That would really piss her off if she ever learned of it. :smallbiggrin:

You know, that only makes me want it more. You can do it, Belkar!

[mrzomby]

Well, when Roy died, what was Belkar's reaction? Compare that with Durkon's and you see that maybe he has already come a long way. There have only been 2 deaths in the party, and while they had a plan to resurrect roy, belkar may not know if durkon can be cured of vampirism ever.
Massive personality shifts like this can be a slippery slope (usually toward evil) but he may get a small change of heart and be less chaotic stupid and more...something.

[Spacewolf]

Which reminds me. I think that Belkar's current apparent swing towards... well, maybe Neutral... will last the rest of his life.:smalltongue: So, about 1-3 minutes. Which raises interesting questions about his afterlife.
I'm really hoping that the strip where Belkar dies is called "Good to the Last Drop."


Never really thought as Belkar as anything but CE but that as the title of his last strip would be a nice send off.

[Incom]

I had a theory for a while that both Belkar and Miko would end up in the TN afterlife and hilarity would ensue.

[SaintRidley]

I had a theory for a while that both Belkar and Miko would end up in the TN afterlife and hilarity would ensue.

I've always imagined Miko just camping out outside the LG afterlife, kind of like Eugene. Stubborn even after the end, refusing to go where she's welcome.

[Carl]

That would indicate that Belkar achieved what Miko failed to do: earn redemption. That would really piss her off if she ever learned of it. :smallbiggrin:

And that would be so awsome haha.

Though him and Miko chasing each other around the afterlife would be almost as fun, though it would probably give the inevitable shippers too much material to work with:eek:.

[allenw]

Never really thought as Belkar as anything but CE but that as the title of his last strip would be a nice send off.

Belkar has definitely been CE. He's almost certainly still CE. But, very recently, he's been kinda-drifting towards the less-deep end of CE; and it seems to me that he's now (literally) crawling towards the border of CN. I don't think he'll make it there in his remaining lifetime, but he just *might* sneak over the border by means of a heroic death.

Of course, that raises the question of what Stickworld Limbo is like, and how Rich would depict it. Slaadi are WotC Product Identity, though they have been mentioned once in the strip (by Belkar's shoulder-demons), and depicted without being named before then (Elan got a shoulder-modron and a shoulder-slaad once).

Technically, if Belkar dies as CE-with-CN-tendencies, or the other way around, he might end up in Pandemonium, but that's pretty obscure, and doesn't seem to lend itself well to jokes. Though we know that it does exist, and that it outsources it's Customer Support to Mechanus. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0646.html)

[Zigg'rrauglurr]

I think Zigg'rrayuruaruaraurauruar hit the nail on the head. Belkar is still a homocidal maniac, but he is bonding (against his will perhaps) to the OoTS in a way he has never been before.

Hahahahahaha!:smallbiggrin: You and everyone I know struggle with that nickname... They have settled either on Ziggie or Zigg'Raul (As in the spanish name).... :smalltongue:

In a meta sense, all this character growth it's not only interesting, but also important so that most of the audience feels at least a little bad when the little ball of destruction has to go. He is showing us that with time and direction even the most psychotic little creep can lead a better life with their fellow sentients, that there is a chance at redemption even to the most vile...

A study in contrast of Miko, who never got a chance to learn of her mistakes and find redemption.

In a story sense, it's very difficult he will have ANY kind of alignment change (that's V's shtick) but he is another example that as well as "good is not stupid", "evil does not mean soulless and emotionless". I always remember the "Red Wizard" from the villain creation workshop of the Giant, a half demonic villain that would have thrown away his plans of hell domination, if his friends' lives were in real danger.

In the gaming sense, he is low in constitution but his health points are probably OK (as in above 0). He can't overexert himself in any way, but he is not down yet.

Also I'm totally calling his death will be avenging Durkon...

P.S. : Turning over a new BitterLeaf... xD

[ti'esar]

And that would be so awsome haha.

Though him and Miko chasing each other around the afterlife would be almost as fun, though it would probably give the inevitable shippers too much material to work with:eek:.

My nightmares would like to thank you for that image.

[Porthos]

Repeating what I had to say on this subject in the main discussion thread:

After thinking about this for a while I've decided that he is in fact not becoming less evil. He is becoming more three dimensional of a character.

See, IMO one of the things this comic is attempting to do, is blungeon people over the head that, yes, evil people can indeed care for others and 'do right by' the people they like.

What is happening with Belkar is that he is, for the first time we have see him 'on camera', learning to care for others. It's not all just about the Belkster anymore. First it was Mr. Scruffy. For whatever reason, the Scruffinator has touched Belkar in a place that no one else has (that we've seen). It's even given him perspective that he doesn't want to have (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html).

Now having a near-death experience and seeing someone sacrifice himself for him has jolted him into instinctually reacting in a way that he rarely, if ever, has before. Being bat-<BLEEEP> scared for his life probably helps in that department as well. :smallamused:

But all of this doesn't mean he is becoming less evil. Not yet at least. Yes, he is starting to learn to emphasize with others. But, well, Redcloak had a similar ephinany yet he still pings as evil. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) What might be going on is that Belkar has first widened his circle of caring to himself and Mr. Scruffy. He might widen that circle to encompass the rest of the Order, though that has yet to be seen. But outside of that? We really haven't seen much, if at all.

Now this isn't to say that it couldn't lead down that road. But at the moment Belkar has only taken the barest of steps down that road. And it's one that he could all too easily step off of (or be shoved off of).

[Guunshtaff]

My hope is that, before he draws his last breath ever, Belkar accords himself in such a fashion that when he reaches the afterlife he is greeted by a certain mustachioed man in blue, handing him a cigar rolled from poorly worded legal documents. . A long shot at best, but it would be an excellent ending for a character who's begun to show REAL character development.

YES!
but don't forget the single malt scotch

[Syncro]

I don't know if this is a permanent change for Belkar, but he's definitely not faking it this time. There's no one else here to impress or trick, just Belkar and Mr. Scruffy. He's scared, but he manages to keep his wits for once, rather than acting out of anger.

maybe he's tricking fate, usually the guy who reforms his ways gets to live as long as it's not at the last second. It seems like Belkar took a level in genre savvy seeing issue 869 or somethin'. Remeber the character's are aware of what kind of universe they're in and know that certain things they'll do will likely tempt fate into screwing them over. Also Belkar didn't really have a choice, he can either warn Roy and get healed, or stay there and bleed to death.

If anything, Belkar's character developement is really more about transforming from chaotic stupid to actually playing chaotic evil. It does seem that the presence of Mr. Scruffy does make him more empathetic as he's the only living remaints of Lord Shojo(other than Hinjo but they're nothing alike) But still...Belkar remains chaotic evil, after all in this universe it's obvious not all villains are complete monsters and that you can still be totally evil without being a heartless ****(evidence of Tarquin and Malack.) The only thing Belkar has cared for is himself, Mr.Scruffy, or random strangers that help him along the way(because he'll know he'll never have to deal with them again.)

[veti]

Perhaps someone with a better grasp of the rules can enlighten me here:

When Malack removed the 'Mass Death Ward' effect from Durkon, do we have any way of knowing for sure whether it was also automatically removed from Belkar at the same time? Or is it possible Belkar was still warded?

If the latter, then he may not be as far below par as all that. OK, obviously his CON has taken a hit from blood loss, but he may only have the negative levels from Malack's first attack.

[SavageWombat]

Since rules for "back door passwords" into spells don't exist, it's hard to say.

It looks to me like he used the password to dismiss the spell as if he were the caster, and by my reading it's all or nothing. But I don't see a definitive answer to whether you can dismiss a spell for a particular target.

[Zigg'rrauglurr]

... Though we know that it does exist, and that it outsources it's Customer Support to Mechanus. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0646.html)

You know? That comic gave me something else to think about... in the last panel, Belkar acknowledges (in some level) the importance of feelings between couples and why it can matter to "them", by calling V to "keep things in perspective"... This is just a few comics after his Shojo Epiphany...
Compare it with his feelings on the subject here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html)... He's been growing...

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Perhaps someone with a better grasp of the rules can enlighten me here:

When Malack removed the 'Mass Death Ward' effect from Durkon, do we have any way of knowing for sure whether it was also automatically removed from Belkar at the same time? Or is it possible Belkar was still warded?

If the latter, then he may not be as far below par as all that. OK, obviously his CON has taken a hit from blood loss, but he may only have the negative levels from Malack's first attack.

I'm going to believe that it was not removed from Belkar simply because I want to.

[runeghost]

My hope is that, before he draws his last breath ever, Belkar accords himself in such a fashion that when he reaches the afterlife he is greeted by a certain mustachioed man in blue, handing him a cigar rolled from poorly worded legal documents. . A long shot at best, but it would be an excellent ending for a character who's begun to show REAL character development.

I have the same hope - it would be a great wrapup for him. At the same, time, I have a hard time believing that Belkar can make it all the way to Chaotic Good in the time he has left, although I think Chaotic Neutral is a real possibility. (And hey, maybe the Chaotic afterworld isn't quite as strict on where you hang out. :smallbiggrin:)

Otoh, part of me wonders if Belkar won't end up in the CE afterlife, and serve as a viewpoint/foil for the actions of the fiends.

[Carl]

My nightmares would like to thank you for that image.

tehehehe. :belkar: isn't the only one with ranks in craft disturbing mental image. I could have done much worse though :p.

[LuisDantas]

Belkar definitely changed, although I won't yet decide that the change is not a spur of the moment thing.

IIRC he never prefered to keep people alive before (a cat, yes, but not people), much less sincerely care for their survival.

(Not that I agree that he was a decent teammate before, mind you. Remember his reason to lending his ring of jumping to Roy?)

[Callista]

I think he's going slowly toward Lawful. He's probably still CE right now, but he's less chaotic than he was. He plans more, works with a team, thinks ahead, and he's got at least one friendly relationship even if it's just with a cat.

I could see Belkar getting to at least NE, eventually--though that'll make him a good deal more dangerous than when he was so impulsive he couldn't plan more than five seconds ahead.

Belkar actually depending on the party here is a rather lawful move. Nothing particularly good or evil about it, but for Belkar it's pretty Lawful to go for his allies rather than trying to rage-attack again, or just taking Mister Scruffy and going off on a random killing spree before Roy catches up with him again.

[happycrow]

Belkar with 10 WIS is portrayed differently than Belkar with 8?

//new here, not sure of stats

[JackRackham]

Chaotic doesn't mean stupidity or chaos. Lawful implies a code of some sort that one follows, personal or otherwise. Belkar hasn't shown that. He's only shown a willingness to fake it (like Shojo). To the extent that he's ACTUALLY growing (if he is), it would be on the evil-good axis, as we've seen him becoming more empathetic. This is really the first step towards being good (irrelevent to law/chaos). Whether or not he will continue is anyone's guess.

[Tetsujin-28]

I think Belkar's character development is to show that Evil characters can still care about other people, even ones that are Good-aligned. It's a reoccurring theme in OOTS, that evil characters can be more than mustache twirling saturday morning cartoon villains. The odds of Belkar's alignment changing is pretty close to zilch.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Belkar with 10 WIS is portrayed differently than Belkar with 8?

Yeah, in an early strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), Vaarsuvius casts Owl's Wisdom on Belkar so he can use a scroll of Cure Serious Wounds, and he becomes a pacifist until the spell is dismissed a moment later. That has been frequently cited as evidence that relatively minor stat changes can have dramatic effects on personality. I think it was just a gag that doesn't mean anything past the end of that strip, though.

[skim172]

But all of this doesn't mean he is becoming less evil. Not yet at least. Yes, he is starting to learn to emphasize with others. But, well, Redcloak had a similar ephinany yet he still pings as evil. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) What might be going on is that Belkar has first widened his circle of caring to himself and Mr. Scruffy. He might widen that circle to encompass the rest of the Order, though that has yet to be seen. But outside of that? We really haven't seen much, if at all.


Redcloak's story is revealed in much more depth in "Start of Darkness." Not gonna say much (but will spoiler anyway): Suffice to say, the goblins' evilness is pretty much a product of their circumstance, and it's more of a "means to an end" kinda deal with them.

I think part of the problem is the constraints imposed by the alignment system in D&D. D&D's alignments demand an absolute declaration of morality, so more complex morality gets tricky. Back when I played D&D, we had countless arguments over alignment - like, when a paladin exterminates a nest of baby dragons, is that good or evil? One guy played a bandit lord, a Robin Hood-esque chaotic good thief who stole from the rich and gave to the poor ... but, I pointed out, he essentially ruled over the peasants as an authoritarian militant dictator, with a small castle and private army, funded by the pillaging and slaughter of rich folk that he knew nothing of - was this not self-serving and morally questionable?

And on those occasions when a DM would force you to change your alignment because he insisted that stealing a valuable artifact, even from an evil king, was not lawful - oh man, those were some major quarrels. Or if you wanted to play an orc - well, orcs are evil. What? I want to be a good orc. Well, too bad. Orcs have to be evil. Maaaan.....

When I DM'ed I came up with a solution I liked, but everyone else hated - I had a powerful archmage appear out of nowhere and cast upon them a custom spell, that would induce the feeling of a red-hot iron band crushing their skull whenever they were doing something out of alignment and/or stupid. Of course, I was accused of railroading (which is exactly what I was doing, but I still maintain it was for the greater good). :smallannoyed:

Inevitably, all such arguments would devolve into a broader debate over the nature of right and wrong, good and evil, heaven and hell, etc., etc.

Eventually, we all decided that alignment was only your declared alignment. It represented the particular moral system you wanted to follow, rather than what you actually were.

Someone pointed out this pretty much rendered the alignment system meaningless, but our gaming sessions went a lot smoother.

[Porthos]

Redcloak's story is revealed in much more depth in "Start of Darkness." Not gonna say much (but will spoiler anyway): Suffice to say, the goblins' evilness is pretty much a product of their circumstance, and it's more of a "means to an end" kinda deal with them.

I.... disagree with the interpretation in your spoiler box. Or rather that isn't my opinion as to why Redcloak pings as evil.

And I think I shall leave it at that. :smallsmile:

[Kislath]

Okay, I'm calling it right here and now:

Belkar will die a "Vaderesque" type of death when he attacks Malack in dramatically awesome, perfect nick-of-time fashion. It will save Durkon and the OOTS and turn the tide of the battle. The little varmint will, in the end, die a true hero and be redeemed.

[Hopeless]

I'm wondering if the order will return to the island where Hinjo is and because Belkar can't accompany them he watches them leave and asks Hinjo to kill him rather than risk him becoming a vampire once he dies to honour the sacrifice Durkon made for him since if he won't be there to return the favour he'd rather honour him by making sure he doesn't become undead.

I'm wondering what safeguard was placed on this gate since that sounds the most likely reason why Belkar dies since he and Elan are the only Chaotic members of the order's party who might be able to bypass whatever defence prevents them from insuring the gate doesn't fall into Xykon's hands.

Hey it was Girard wasn't it?

[TheWolfe]

I know what changed Belkar. Remember when V saved Belkar's life (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html)? Durkon just saved Belkar's life. Is Belkar lusting after Durkon now? Will it turn into a vampire love story?