How's this look for a tough encounter?

[jebbewocky]

This assumes a party of 6 Level 1 PCs
ARISTOCRAT
STR 9 INT 12
DEX 11 WIS 8
CON 10 CHA 13
Chainmail (150 gp)
heavy xbow (50 gp)
smoke-stick (20 gp)
Acid (20 gp)

POLE-ARM WARRIOR (2nd in command)
STR 12 INT 13
DEX 10 WIS 9
CON 11 CHA 8
FEATS: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
EQUIPMENT: Scale Mail, Halberd, spiked gauntlet (65 gp total)

S&B WARRIOR:
STR-12 INT 10
DEX-11 WIS 9
CON-12 CHA 8
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Bull-Rush
Equipment: Scale Mail(50), heavy wooden shield (7 gp), flail 8 gp
gp1: 2

BOW WARRIOR:
STR 10 INT 11
DEX 13 WIS 9
CON 12 CHA 8
EQUIPMENT: Shortbow (30 gp), Studded leather (25), 20 arrows
FEATS: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
gp: 4

[dwlc2000]

Pretty tough for the level

[jebbewocky]

It's intended to be tough, bordering on TPK territory without being overwhelming.

It's entirely possible for the PCs to talk their way out of the encounter in two different ways, I just haven't worked out the specifics on that end yet.

EDIT: The original idea actually was two "sword and board" (well, flail and board) dudes. Maybe I should go with two flail dudes and no archer.

[Spuddles]

Sleep/color spray/entangle, and it's rather trivial. Otherwise might be difficult, depending on pointbuy/tactica used by your party.

[jebbewocky]

32 point buy.
The thing is the bad guys have a hostage, and are using the hostage to blackmail the PCs into doing a minor quest for them.

I want the PCs to have the option of a minor quest, of challenging difficulty, vs a quick encounter of more severe difficulty.

Maybe I should add a caster? Hmm. Been too long since I played 3.5.

[Matticussama]

Assuming all 4 NPCs are level 1 with average HP for their class, I'd classify it as a moderate encounter assuming all else is equal. If your group is decently optimized then it is less of a challenge; if the enemies get to choose the terrain and obtain an unfair advantage (keeping some of them from attacking b/c of the hostage) then it is a greater threat.

Depending upon the context, there should probably be some sort of negative repercussions for killing an "Aristocrat" since that assumes some significant social clout in the area. So if they do go in hack and slash, it should draw the ire of the town guard or local authorities.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Are the Aristocrat and Warriors level 2 or 3 or 1?

I tend to use this for a gut check on my encounters (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/).

It doesn't have the nuance to really understand the horror of a medusa or a rust monster... but NPC classes vs. PCs... if your NPCs are level 2, the calculator says "Very Difficult" but when I eyeball it... I see "50/50" - it's 6 on 4, same level, under ~12 hp each...

[Spuddles]

A single sleep spell could end this encounter in one go, same with color spray. A string of lucky hits in the first round could also easily drop half the antagonists. I don't believe NPC classes get max hp at first level, and even if they do, no one there has over 9 hp. A greatsword hit from a str 16 fighter averages 11 damage. If someone has cleave, the encounter could end if sleep doesn't do it first.

32pb means 6pcs will probably roflstomp it unless the antagonists have a great defensive position and how much the pcs care about hostages.

[Malroth]

i'd have 3 archers on different rooftops outside any reasonable AOE range with orders to shoot the hostages first if things go south.

[Xerxus]

Double (maybe triple depending on optimization) those numbers and you have yourself an encounter, bordering on TPK. The party I'm in atm would roflstomp the current numbers. Spellcasters with sleep and color spray as well as high-AC frontliners make mass lvl-1 npcs cry.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Even if they had a straight up fight this is too easy.

If I were one of your six players I could easily create a Fighter like character who could easily kill all 4 of your NPCs by himself.

That being said, I have a tendency to make powerful characters. Against typical/casual players your NPCs are decent, but much of a challenge still. I would label it as moderate.

Your issues?

1. It's 6 vs 4, you're simply out numbered
2. The Ability Scores are too low. Their accuracy, AC, damage, health etc. are going to drop as a result.

Just building them with the 32 point rule and making the four compliment each other fine would be enough for a scary encounter.

If your group isn't typical and infact very skilled at making strong characters and/or very creative, you might want to make them level 2 or 3 just as an extra boost.

[jebbewocky]

Stats are low due to non elite array.
Increase Aristocrat to L2, polearm to L2, add three more archers?

[Fyermind]

what do your characters like?

This is a standard fare encounter for my old group. They were a strictly nonspellcasting group, and would crush this at level 1. That's without sleep or color spray. A single wizard with a scythe could win this on initiative.

I agree with adding another flail and board. Level the flailer's up to level 2. They won't gain much (+1 to hit, double HP) but it will make them live to round two... maybe.

I'd take two archers (at least) and place them behind cover with elevation.

The Aristocrat would have elevation and a hostage (readied action to kill the hostage and the hostage counts as grappled for a 25% chance of accidentally hitting the hostage instead as well as providing soft cover (+4 AC).

Two pole arm wielders with readied actions to trip should make this more challenging without focusing on damage output.

If AC or HP are low in the party, remove the trippers first. Then lower the number of flails. Lastly start removing archers. Archers are low damage but make an interesting encounter.

(Also add a dagger to the aristocrat. He holds the dagger against the throat of his bound hostage. He holds his crossbow in his other hand, trained on the least armored player.)

[Gwazi Magnum]

Stats are low due to non elite array.
Increase Aristocrat to L2, polearm to L2, add three more archers?

One NPC with high ability scores is much more challenging than 5-6 NPCs with low ones. Plus, the less NPCs you have, the better combat flows cause it's less bogged down by peoples turns.

The aristocrat and polearm are honestly the two who scare me least, so leveling those 2 may balance the team most, but has the least effect in terms of challenge.

The archers might work depending on how melee oriented your group is. If they have at least two decent archers or spell casters though, those archers won't account for much.

[Gwazi Magnum]

what do your characters like?

This is a standard fare encounter for my old group. They were a strictly nonspellcasting group, and would crush this at level 1. That's without sleep or color spray. A single wizard with a scythe could win this on initiative.

I agree with adding another flail and board. Level the flailer's up to level 2. They won't gain much (+1 to hit, double HP) but it will make them live to round two... maybe.

I'd take two archers (at least) and place them behind cover with elevation.

The Aristocrat would have elevation and a hostage (readied action to kill the hostage and the hostage counts as grappled for a 25% chance of accidentally hitting the hostage instead as well as providing soft cover (+4 AC).

Two pole arm wielders with readied actions to trip should make this more challenging without focusing on damage output.

If AC or HP are low in the party, remove the trippers first. Then lower the number of flails. Lastly start removing archers. Archers are low damage but make an interesting encounter.

(Also add a dagger to the aristocrat. He holds the dagger against the throat of his bound hostage. He holds his crossbow in his other hand, trained on the least armored player.)


^^This is good advice right there

+Adding at least one NPC Sorcerer or Wizard with spells like Sleep could be used to devastate the players.

[Xerxus]

What is the players' party composition? Level, tactics? A party of 6 PCs can accomplish amazing synergies, and awful ones as well.

[jebbewocky]

1 HD Lizardfolk
1 Gnome wizard,mostly illusion
1 Hobgoblin druid
1 Melee style dwarf cleric
1 human rogue,focused on range
1 unknown/undecided

This is the first session, and we've had trouble finding local people so I said screw it and the PCs are playing multiple characters.

[Gwazi Magnum]

1 HD Lizardfolk
1 Gnome wizard,mostly illusion
1 Hobgoblin druid
1 Melee style dwarf cleric
1 human rogue,focused on range
1 unknown/undecided

This is the first session, and we've had trouble finding local people so I said screw it and the PCs are playing multiple characters.

Cleric, Wizard and Druid are three most broken and powerful classes in the game outside of Artificer and Prestige classes.

Just one of them could kill your encounter if they were clever enough with spells.

Wizard really just needs sleep, Druid can go animal summoning crazy.
Plus the fact multiple characters are under one player means they probably sync together even better.

And the rogue is positioned right can just insta-kill any of your NPCs with sneak attack.

[jebbewocky]

Maybe if I made the Aristocrat an L2 Battle Sorceror, and the polearm guy a L2 fighter.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Maybe if I made the Aristocrat an L2 Battle Sorceror, and the polearm guy a L2 fighter.

The best tactic may be to set up resistance to magic (but at level 1 it's too early for stuff like that).

Otherwise, turn it into an ambush so your NPCs gain a surprise round and focus on the wizard first, followed by the druid.

[jokeaccount]

I'm not really sure about your fight but I'll give you my first ever lvl 1 fight which ended with 2 people at -X and the rest of the team at 1~4 positive hp.

We were Lvl 1: Rogue (With penalty to str and no w.finesse), Fighter (Dwarf with W.Focus and something bad), Wizard (with burning hands as his lvl 1 spell) and Bard (useless as always).

They were: 4 lvl 1 orcs with Greataxes (i think, the crit modif was definitely x3. I don't remember their feats) who were about to ambush us if the wizard wasn't lucky and sent his eagle familiar to scout ahead. If we were ambushed instead, it would be TPK first fight of campaign

Compare your PCs and ours and the encounter to preview a result

[Spuddles]

1 HD Lizardfolk
1 Gnome wizard,mostly illusion
1 Hobgoblin druid
1 Melee style dwarf cleric
1 human rogue,focused on range
1 unknown/undecided

This is the first session, and we've had trouble finding local people so I said screw it and the PCs are playing multiple characters.

Ability scores are gonna be pretty good with all those monsters. And everything at level 1 comes down to ability scores.


Cleric, Wizard and Druid are three most broken and powerful classes in the game outside of Artificer and Prestige classes.

Just one of them could kill your encounter if they were clever enough with spells.

Wizard really just needs sleep, Druid can go animal sumAmoning crazy.
Plus the fact multiple characters are under one player means they probably sync together even better.

And the rogue is positioned right can just insta-kill any of your NPCs with sneak attack.

Summoned critters last all of one round at first level. Druid's animal companion is the big deal at first level. Shillelagh is pretty amazing, too.


Maybe if I made the Aristocrat an L2 Battle Sorceror, and the polearm guy a L2 fighter.

Level 2 fighters replacing the warriors, and use elite array. That would make combat much more dangerous. Trip will make your players cry.

[Matticussama]

While sleep/color spray/etc are definitely threats at this level, you can avoid getting your NPCs one-shotted by making sure they're spread out. Have the NPCs use terrain to their advantage, and make sure they're relatively spread out. Sleep is a 10ft radius, color spray is a 15ft cone.

Depending the details of how they're going to rescue the hostage, the encounter could easily be set up on the Aristocrat's estate. Have the Aristocrat up on a balcony (20 ft elevation) with the hostage; have the balcony be in the middle of the estate. Have 2 archers on either side of the roof of the estate house, using battlements along the roof for cover (40ft elevation, maybe 100ft apart from each other depending upon the size of the house). Have the melee NPCs out front on the yard of the estate, 30ft away from the house.

Now it is impossible for a single spell to one-shot your NPCs. One spell might take out the Melee NPCs, but the Archers and Aristocrat can still fire down at the party. It also gives a more interesting combat dynamic than "4 people in a 20ft x 20ft square room". Additionally, the party loot can be obtained my searching the house for valuables rather than just looting loose change from the pockets of dead soldiers.

[Spuddles]

Spreading out has the disadvantage of getting swarmed one at a time.

[Matticussama]

The tactical advantage outweighs the disadvantage. Sure, they can be swarmed one by one. But that is less of a threat than everyone getting shut down by a Sleep or Color Spray.

[Shining Wrath]

Given the party has casters, you need to set up the room to eliminate that.
Also, archers can be a lot less threatening if the sixth character turns out to be a barbarian with Jump trained - big strength, big move, chases archers down, very bad things happen to the person with the bow.

[Matticussama]

Given the party has casters, you need to set up the room to eliminate that.
Also, archers can be a lot less threatening if the sixth character turns out to be a barbarian with Jump trained - big strength, big move, chases archers down, very bad things happen to the person with the bow.

Depending upon how far away the Archers are (like in my example) that eats up multiple rounds. So, yes, when the Barbarian does get to the Archer it is probably going to die in one round; however, doing so occupied the Barbarian for 2 - 3 rounds (move, climb, attack) during which the Archer(s) or Aristocrat can attack him. Keeping the Barbarian occupied for 3 rounds (at the end of which he is separated from his party) certainly seems a solid battle plan.

[Fyermind]

Replace your sword and board characters with Knights. Don't focus on damage too much with any of them. You don't want to kill your PCs.

Knights will give you +1 AC, lots of HP, and a flavorful knights challenge, as well as a good reason why they aren't flank and spank targetting your PCs. Consider phalanx fighting or shield wall (or both) to crank their AC up. They will do fine wielding short swords or light maces.

Your pole arm fighters are the biggest threat to the PCs because they wield high damage two handed weapons. Level one is the level of 1 hit kills. Try to focus on dexterity and combat reflexes + combat expertise + improved trip (Fighter 1 looks good for that).

Archers can stay warriors if you are worried about bumping the as written CR up too high. Try to get their attack bonus up to the point they might actually hit their targets. Give them shortbows and or make them small if you are worried they will deal too much damage.

Your aristocrat will go down round 1 if you aren't careful. I'd give it levels in something with good saves just to keep it alive. I often run aristocratic NPCs as gestalt characters. Bard or swordsage both work well for that. Alternatively, Stallwart Battle Sorcerer can make for a great single class aristocrat. With spells available like grease or power word pain (use with caution, that is almost a you die spell at level 1 unless you have good healing on hand), it will be very dangerous. It will have strong HP, and a good will save for dealing with sleep or color spray. If you go the power word pain route, (you have at least two characters capable of healing, so this might be acceptable) you don't need to worry about spell failure chances, so you can bundle up in heavier armor, but chain shirt on decent dex isn't a bad option otherwise.

In terms of layout:
Spreading out is good for ranged attackers, but your pole arms should be close to your shields. You want them all to engage in melee at once.
The aristocrat should probably be within reach of the polarms, but a little distance from the front could save him for round 3.

A scary encounter for the players is not one that lasts two rounds at most and may kill several players. It is an encounter where they are consistently taking damage and are having a hard time dealing it. It doesn't mean they are actually at a lot of risk. If they identify the dangers quickly they will drop the pole arms (Primary damage dealers) in round 1 with spells. Round one or two might make the knights irrelevant (grease, entangle, etc.). The archers will be harder to eliminate, but won't be nearly as scary. It will give the lower tier characters something to do if the gods blast out the center too quickly. The sorcerer will be up to whoever gets their first, and will probably incapacitate at least one of the players. For a real fun time power word pain on the hostage in the first round will give the players a taste of what they are in against. Round two it can target the bulkiest player. That should put the cleric and maybe the druid on the defensive for a bit healing him to keep him alive.

Of course each gaming group has different concepts of tactics. I know my groups have tended to be built from strategists and my games tend to reflect that. Consider what a play arch might look like and make sure nobody holds an "I win" card and that you aren't simply going to destroy them automatically.

Edit:
The aristocrat as a Dragonfire adept with entangling exhalation is another terrifying option.

[Kane0]

Beware your players using tactics. Not just spells that stop your dudes from fighting, just simple things like cover and chokepoints. A party will feel far more threatened when they have disadvantage in the terrain than against enemies with bigger numbers (though at level 1 bigger numbers are more lethal than ever)

In terms of positioning, have the melee guys loosely together and the ranged guys in two smaller clumps. That way the casters get to use their awesome SoL spells without destroying your encounter.

[jebbewocky]

It's going to be a very skill heavy campaign, and we were short on some skills even with the rogue, so the druid is a ranger now. :)

I'll be sure to adjust the encounter a bit more, but as far as the terrain goes:
It's going to be at a dock, and I'm going to have the enemy rangers be on top of some warehouses.