Elan and Tarquin - What Now?

[873]

Just a thread for speculation. I remember Elan saying that he had this plan to deal with his father in one of the strips (it's late so I'm not linking to it) and that it involved Durkon. But Durkon's dead now. So this throws a big wrench into Elan's plans. How do you all think the bard will deal with it?

I think Elan will just end up thinking about this more, maybe delaying action if possible. But from the lurking I've done (a lot) on these forums, it seems you all tend to think about the strip more deeply than I do. So any thoughts, ideas, etc. would be welcome.

And if this has been done already feel free to lock it, I looked at the first page and saw nothing so I figured this hadn't been covered.

[Warren Dew]

I'm bemused by the presence of the words "Elan" and "thinking" in the same sentence.

[ti'esar]

I think you're actually the first person to point this out. In fact, that he needed Durkon to help is virtually the only thing we knew about Elan's plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html) in the first place. Interesting.

[Alaris]

I think you're actually the first person to point this out. In fact, that he needed Durkon to help is virtually the only thing we knew about Elan's plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html) in the first place. Interesting.

Well, it looks like he needed him to help "when he gets back." As in, immediately. Perhaps the preparation that required Durkon has already been done...

[RMS Oceanic]

When he first mentioned needing Durkon's, I naturally assumed he meant his magic. Since that is not an option in the short term, it may be possible he just needed to pick Durkon's brains, run part of his plan past him to see if it works like he thinks it does. In any case, I hope he gets to pull off his plan. It would be nice to see Elan pull off a victory in these troubled times.

[SowZ]

When he first mentioned needing Durkon's, I naturally assumed he meant his magic. Since that is not an option in the short term, it may be possible he just needed to pick Durkon's brains, run part of his plan past him to see if it works like he thinks it does. In any case, I hope he gets to pull off his plan. It would be nice to see Elan pull off a victory in these troubled times.

I don't see why he would default to Durkon. Elan is closer to Roy, for one. And secondly, Roy is smarter than Durkon. Durkon is wiser, but Roy has very good Wisdom himself. Top it off with a high intelligence and more experience with Tarquin and it seems highly unlikely that Elan would say he needs Durkon's help if all he needed was Durkon's advice.

Saying "I need Roy," to mean I need Roy's tactical mind? That's reasonable.

[RMS Oceanic]

I don't see why he would default to Durkon. Elan is closer to Roy, for one. And secondly, Roy is smarter than Durkon. Durkon is wiser, but Roy has very good Wisdom himself. Top it off with a high intelligence and more experience with Tarquin and it seems highly unlikely that Elan would say he needs Durkon's help if all he needed was Durkon's advice.

Saying "I need Roy," to mean I need Roy's tactical mind? That's reasonable.

Or it could be asking about a spell that appears on both the Bard list and the Cleric list. That would be one area I could see Durkon surpassing Roy in knowledge about it, so could Elan's plan involve this spell?

Well we won't know what it is until the Leprechaun Suit gets whipped out anyway.

[Roland Itiative]

I think you're actually the first person to point this out.
Actually, I pointed this out in some random thread a couple of days ago :smalltongue:

I hadn't considered the possibility of Durkon's part in the plan being already completed, though. That's probably the case, specially if Elan plans to put it to action on their current situation (and he implies he can do that in the recap comic).

[Forum Explorer]

I think you're actually the first person to point this out. In fact, that he needed Durkon to help is virtually the only thing we knew about Elan's plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html) in the first place. Interesting.

The next strip says they're done for now. That could mean Durkon has finished his part, but also leaves the chance that Durkon is still needed.

[873]

The next strip says they're done for now. That could mean Durkon has finished his part, but also leaves the chance that Durkon is still needed.

I looked over the strip Explorer is talking about (837), and when Elan mentioned it in the first panel Durkon seemed to have a bit of a confused face, like this: :smallconfused:

I could be reading too much into it, but it could mean that Durkon is not clued into the entire plan, or it could mean that he needed more details. I am curious what the plan was, so if it isn't seen I hope Elan at least gets to explain it. When Roy asked Elan about a plan for defeating his father (836), his reply was "sort of," which could imply something unconventional. So I am curious about this whole thing, really.

[Toy Killer]

I took the "Yes! No! Well, Sort of..." as being the biggest hint there.

He has to find a means to defeat Tarquin that doesn't quite cover defeating him.

IMHO, he's going to disguise himself as Tarquin (Notice the beauty care products sold by Avon earlier on in the arc? The ones with magic supplements?) and live as the king with his own twist. If he turns the Empress of blood against the other two cities, Tarquin doesn't get his little tri-archy scheme and live like a god until the end of his life like he wants to.

Elan may just be naive enough to believe that this will force his dad to be good. Hypothetically, if the Linear Guild is destroyed in the process of this arc, Tarquin and crew may have to reunite for revenge against the OotS, as a Much much more terrifying Chandler.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Perhaps Durkon's death is part of the plan.

[Thrillhouse]

Pay attention to what Roy says right before Elan comes up with his idea. That's got to be key--something Roy said triggered the idea.

[SowZ]

Perhaps Durkon's death is part of the plan.

Exactly. This whole scenario, including Durkon's friendship with Malack, was all part of Elan's master Xanatos Gambit to take down Tarquin.

[Kornaki]

Elan is going to commit some sort of magical dwarven disowning ritual, severing his familial connection to Tarquin both spiritually and literally.

[Thrillhouse]

You know what would be REALLY messed up?

If the plan somehow involved becoming Malack's "child" instead of Tarquin, and Durkula has been part of the plan all along :O

But not really.

[Holy_Knight]

Well, it looks like he needed him to help "when he gets back." As in, immediately. Perhaps the preparation that required Durkon has already been done...


I hadn't considered the possibility of Durkon's part in the plan being already completed, though. That's probably the case, specially if Elan plans to put it to action on their current situation (and he implies he can do that in the recap comic).

The next strip says they're done for now. That could mean Durkon has finished his part, but also leaves the chance that Durkon is still needed.
I always interpreted that scene as indicating that Durkon did whatever Elan had asked him to do, but didn't understand what the point was. That would make sense given Elan's claim that he couldn't tell anyone about the plan, and I'm sure Durkon wouldn't mind not knowing as long as whatever it was seemed harmless. That's not the only possible interpretation of course, but that's the impression it gives me. It does also leave open the possibility that he could be needed again, as Forum Explorer points out.

[Mike Havran]

Pay attention to what Roy says right before Elan comes up with his idea. That's got to be key--something Roy said triggered the idea.

Yeah, but Epic level Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0558.html) couldn't track Elan's thought processes.

[Carl]

I didn't know track thought process was a ranger class skill. Then again i didn't know ignorance was a bard one either:smallamused:.

[Fish]

Huh. I can't imagine what made me think of this:

1. The only one of Haley's beauty products we know of is "hair growth."
2. Roy mentioned in passing, and in fact demonstrated, that the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity doesn't grow hair.

Is this a coincidence? Maybe. Probably. But then:

3. "It's better to find a sense of family in someone who's good..."

Is soneone going to impersonate Elan's mother? Someone such as Elan, wearing the Girdle? It's not exactly a way to defeat Tarquin... but it might help. Maybe, somehow. We do know Tarquin has a Ring of True Seeing, which won't help him against an artifact like the G of F/M.

Why does Elan need Durkon's help? I have no idea. Maybe all he asked was "Did you prepare Remove Curse today?"

Yeah, it's a crazy outlandish plan, and has the disadvantage of having been used once already, sort of. And it's probably entirely wrong. But hey, Rich has taken strange departures before...

[The_Tentacle]

Exactly. This whole scenario, including Durkon's friendship with Malack, was all part of Elan's master Xanatos Gambit to take down Tarquin.

This has "needlessly complicated" written all over it, and remember: we're talking about Elan, not Nale.

I think that Durkon did what Elan needed him to do, but didn't understand what it accomplished. His plan will be something that he thinks is genius (like the pickle death attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0607.html)) but everyone else knows is going to do absolutely nothing. Then it does something that completely destroys the opposition and/or Girard's Gate.

[allenw]

My theory at the time:
Elan knows he can't beat Tarquin at Tarquin's own genre, so he has to switch genres on him.

To, for example, "romantic comedy".

At first, I thought the plan was to have Durkon marry Elan and Haley, to force Tarquin into the role of proud father. But Durkon's puzzled reaction didn't seem to fit that, plus Haley wasn't involved.
So, I currently see two plans. Both of them involve Durkon having sent a Sending to Elan's mother on on Elan's behalf, or Elan having used Durkon's scroll to do so via Use Magic device (we know that Durkon is in the habit of saving a Sending scroll for emergencies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)).

1: Durkon (or Elan) invited Elan's Mom to Elan's wedding. She's supposed to show up, rekindle her romance with Tarquin, and make him a better man. Tarquin, of course, will be genre-bound to suspend his Evil Plans for the duration of the festivities.

2: Elan, pretending to be Tarquin, sent his Mom a love message, asking her to take him back. She shows up, possible double wedding, everybody's happy. Or, at worst, big comedy of errors.

[Kish]

This has "needlessly complicated" written all over it, and remember: we're talking about Elan, not Nale.
Clearly, when Elan went looking for Durkon, he had Durkon cast a Sending to contact Elan's mother and she came up with the plan.

[KillingAScarab]

I noticed the carpet which Tarquin lent to the Order (which was being tracked) is clearly shown as present when Elan is inspired. I think there's a good chance Tarquin knows Elan is coming up with a plan, but thanks to Elan's desire for secrecy Tarquin may not actually know what it is, yet. We'll find out how Tarquin reacts (if at all) when he learns of Durkon's current state.


This has "needlessly complicated" written all over it, and remember: we're talking about Elan, not Nale.


Clearly, when Elan went looking for Durkon, he had Durkon cast a Sending to contact Elan's mother and she came up with the plan.You seem to be forgetting what Elan came up with when he was trying to get back to Azure City.

:elan: It turns out we won't need my plan after all!
:thog: but thog just finished step 3: stuffing potato salad into giant wooden alpaca!

[allenw]

Further evidence for my hypotheses:
Durkon's Scroll of Sending is mentioned just 2 strips before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html) the strip where Elan comes up with his plan.
Granted, Haley actually has the scroll at the time it's mentioned; but I think this supports the idea that Sending is somehow involved in Elan's plan.

[Shred-Bot]

You seem to be forgetting what Elan came up with when he was trying to get back to Azure City.

:elan: It turns out we won't need my plan after all!
:thog: but thog just finished step 3: stuffing potato salad into giant wooden alpaca!

We don't necessarily know how complicated that plan was... it could have just been a bad plan, after all.

Also, Elan's endgame with Tarquin won't be complete until he and Roy are for-real brothers and they both get puppies.

[Finn Solomon]

They become lovers...no wait, wrong thread.

I don't think Elan's plan is a stupid, throwaway joke though, otherwise it wouldn't be dragged out as long as it has. It could be a very decent plan that will naturally terrify Roy with the realisation that the bard can think.

[KillingAScarab]

We don't necessarily know how complicated that plan was... it could have just been a bad plan, after all.There were skis in that panel. Skis are the closest thing to rocket skates I can imagine him being able to procure for thog.


Also, Elan's endgame with Tarquin won't be complete until he and Roy are for-real brothers and they both get puppies.Love it. :)

[Purgatorius]

At first, I thought the plan was to have Durkon marry Elan and Haley, to force Tarquin into the role of proud father. But Durkon's puzzled reaction didn't seem to fit that, plus Haley wasn't involved

Which is still my theory.
Elan gets the idea when Roy is saying "it's better to find that sense of family among people who are good than it is to try to find a sense of good inside your family."
If Elan and Haley get married, then suddenly Tarquin and Haley and – Ian! – are related, like it or not (probably not :smallbiggrin:). Of course I need to admit that I'm unsure of how the plan proceeds after that.
Durkon led the only wedding Elan has seen, at least on-panel.
Haley wasn't involved int he planning, because Elan wants it to be a surprise when he proposes to her.
Durkon gets puzzled, because he and Elan was talking about a wedding, not a "super top secret plan".

[Zar Peter]

Actually I think this plan is as relevant as this plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html) was.

Although it would be interesting... :smallbiggrin:

[Dr. Gamera]

Is soneone going to impersonate Elan's mother? Someone such as Elan, wearing the Girdle? It's not exactly a way to defeat Tarquin... but it might help. Maybe, somehow. We do know Tarquin has a Ring of True Seeing, which won't help him against an artifact like the G of F/M.

Why does Elan need Durkon's help?

If you're right about Elan wanting the Girdle, Elan needed Durkon's help because when we last saw the Girdle, Durkon had it. (OOTS #249, Return of the Trouser Titan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html))

[Fish]

Or, to make sure Durkon prepared the spell to remove it. Which, I guess, could get awkward if there isn't a caster around to cast Remove Curse.

[Shred-Bot]

If you're right about Elan wanting the Girdle, Elan needed Durkon's help because when we last saw the Girdle, Durkon had it. (OOTS #249, Return of the Trouser Titan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html))

Or... maybe Elan wants to trick Tarquin into wearing the girdle! Doing this could both cut down on the casually sexist anecdotes and abruptly switch the genre. Tootsie meets Gladiator in the feel-good comedy of the year!

That way he could also use his mastery of narrative structure to prove once and for all that bards aren't underpowered.

[Olinser]

Or... maybe Elan wants to trick Tarquin into wearing the girdle! Doing this could both cut down on the casually sexist anecdotes and abruptly switch the genre. Tootsie meets Gladiator in the feel-good comedy of the year!

That way he could also use his mastery of narrative structure to prove once and for all that bards aren't underpowered.

Or maybe Empress Tarquina will be just as dirty, sexist, and genre-savvy.

[Kish]

No one is less of a fan of Tarquin than I am, but I doubt he'd be mortally stricken by a cursed magic item that he'd know Malack could get off him tomorrow. Assuming Malack doesn't carry a Remove Curse scroll.

[Fish]

I concur. However, confronted (apparently) by the only wife he did not murder —Elan's mother — who knows what Tarquin would do?

I reiterate: this is a silly idea. Very. And very improbable. Still...

[Kornaki]

I concur. However, confronted (apparently) by the only wife he did not murder —Elan's mother — who knows what Tarquin would do?


He accused Nale of murdering his last wife, which seems pretty pointless unless he really thought Nale did it

[rodneyAnonymous]

His last wife was killed by Familicide.

[Hopeless]

Hmm you know the bit I like about this plan is that all Elan has to say to his mum is that he's met his brother Nale and that dad is picking on him come help...

Now what would she do if Elan told him where he was and that her ex-husband and the son she hasn't seen since her husband left her?

Oh boy if that is the plan it sounding like an awfully good one, good for all the potential hijinx and havoc that would entail...

Anyone see Tarquin explaining he was hunting down an order of child kidnappers as an excuse to make him look better to his ex-wife?:smallwink:

[deworde]

Apparently Elan's already done whatever he needed Durkon for....
(1st panel)

I reckon he sending'd to Julio Scoundrel, his mentor, for High Adventure advice!

[Chantelune]

Nah, Scoundrel said that if he ever appear again, it might be to die at the hand of some villain so elan can swear revenge upon his dying body. If he comes back, he might get killed by Tarquin, thus placing Elan on the path to kill his father in an awesome climatic duel both to destroy the Empire of Blood and avenge his mentor. This would make Tarquin's demise even more badass.

My thoughts, given Roy's comment just before Elan's figured it out, are that Elan probably want Durkon to find some way to disown him from Tarquin's legacy, maybe having him adopted by Roy's dead parents (so they could be for-real brothers) to get a new family that is good, so the climatic duel wouldn't be of a son versus his father. :smallbiggrin:

[Carl]

I've said it before and i'll say it again. What Targuin gets out of the climactic duel is that he gets to be this badass villain. He gets remembered for being awesome, and that's what he wants, a name to be feared and revered throughout the ages.

Elan doesn't have to not beat his father in a climactic duel, he just has to end the duel in some way that doesn't leave Tarquin looking like a badass.

I think he'll pull something similar to what the doctor pulls in "Demons Run", to quote:


The Doctor: No, Colonel Manton, I want you to tell your men to run away.
Manton: You what?
The Doctor: Those words. Run away. I want you to be famous for those exact words. I want people to call you Colonel Run-Away. I want children laughing outside your door, 'cos they've found the house of Colonel Run-Away. And when people come to you and ask you if trying to get to me through THE PEOPLE I LOVE is in any way a good idea... I want you to tell them your name.

What could be worse for Tarquin than to be banished from power and left remembered for being utterly humiliated. Elan doesn't even have to kill him to do it either.

[runeghost]

This has "needlessly complicated" written all over it, and remember: we're talking about Elan, not Nale.

I think that Durkon did what Elan needed him to do, but didn't understand what it accomplished. His plan will be something that he thinks is genius (like the pickle death attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0607.html)) but everyone else knows is going to do absolutely nothing. Then it does something that completely destroys the opposition and/or Girard's Gate.

I've sort-of been assuming it was a sending to Elan and Nale's mother - Tarquin's first wife. Who's probably a level 20 commoner, or something :smallbiggrin:

And... beaten to it by allenw in the very next post. I really need to learn to finish threads before I post. :smallbiggrin:

[Oakianus]

I was just reading through the archives and when I got here, I couldn't help think of it as foreshadowing:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html

Elan: Dad, I can't let you hurt all these people for ten years!
Tarquin: Well, if you want, you can force the confrontation early... but the way these things go, you'll probably end up losing a hand or an eye or something.
Elan: Oh, right. Like, a big burn on the side of my face at the very least.
Tarquin: Right! Exactly.

This isn't exactly the right thread for it, but it didn't seem worthy of its own thread, so. :P

[Incom]

^Those are, respectively, a Star Wars reference (the hand), some other reference for the eye (IIRC), and Avatar: The Last Airbender for the big burn.

As for me, I'd woke up in the middle of the night to make this prediction and this was the first place I saw where I could reasonably leave it:

Tarquin, like Blackwing, is going to stare into the Snarl, and suddenly nobody will be able to remember him.

[dps]

some other reference for the eye (IIRC)

It's a personal idiot tax.

[rodneyAnonymous]

It's a personal idiot tax.

I don't think so, the references are about a physical price for forcing a confrontation early (like Luke fighting Vader before he's ready), which aren't the circumstances under which Redcloak lost an eye.

[allenw]

As for me, I'd woke up in the middle of the night to make this prediction and this was the first place I saw where I could reasonably leave it:

Tarquin, like Blackwing, is going to stare into the Snarl, and suddenly nobody will be able to remember him.

I *like* this. But I don't think it can be Elan's plan.