I need help with contact other plane.

[Burpcycle]

I am playing a level 2 wizard/1 binder/10 anima mage/1 fatespinner. I am lawful neutral and have 25 intelligence (+7), which I am already improving using a headband of intellect +4. I need to use contact other plane to talk to greater deities. The penalty for failing (int and cha drop to 8 for five weeks) is too great to risk. The intelligence check DC to contact a greater deity is 16, which means I have a 40% chance of becoming useless for more than a month. This is unacceptable, but I need to talk these deities. I am aware of the marshal aura that improved intelligence checks, but no one in the party is a marshal and I do not have leadership to get one. I am aware of vestiges that heal ability score damage quickly, but the DM ruled that COP doesn't say it deals ability score damage, it just flat lowers your intelligence and charisma. I am aware of expensive items that improve intelligence checks, but I cannot afford them.

I do, however, have access to a level 14 druid party member and a friendly level 17 cleric NPC. I have looked through their spell lists for something useful, but have found nothing. It is my hope that I overlooked something.

What can I do?

[Aharon]

Take 10 on the ability check? :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, RAW, this is possible. That makes the spell extremely useful and it doesn't have drawbacks anymore, so discuss it with your DM before bringing this up.

A level 17 cleric NPC has access to miracle, so he could duplicate the spell for you, if he is willing to bear the risk.

You could also buy a scroll of wish to gain a reroll - if your group has somebody with UMD.

[Burpcycle]

Take 10 on the ability check? :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, RAW, this is possible. That makes the spell extremely useful and it doesn't have drawbacks anymore, so discuss it with your DM before bringing this up.

A level 17 cleric NPC has access to miracle, so he could duplicate the spell for you, if he is willing to bear the risk.

You could also buy a scroll of wish to gain a reroll - if your group has somebody with UMD.

I'm certain the DM would disallow taking 10 on the ability check, amusing though it would be, simply because an enemy NPC is using the spell frequently and there would be no excuse for him not to also do so unless it was impossible.

Miracle is a possibility, but the NPC cleric does not have great intelligence or charisma, and he's more useful than I am, so I don't want to risk him, either.

[ArcturusV]

I'd feel silly mentioning this because I could... or should... assume it's included...

But Player's Handbook, Fox's Cunning. Level 2 Sorcerer/Wizard spell. +4 to Intelligence. So there you go cutting down your fail chances to 30%. Your caster level should be more than comfortable to cast Fox's Cunning before you start casting COP, so you can get the bonus.

[Derjuin]

I'd feel silly mentioning this because I could... or should... assume it's included...

But Player's Handbook, Fox's Cunning. Level 2 Sorcerer/Wizard spell. +4 to Intelligence. So there you go cutting down your fail chances to 30%. Your caster level should be more than comfortable to cast Fox's Cunning before you start casting COP, so you can get the bonus.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work because both the spell and the Headband of Intellect are enhancement bonuses.

To the OP: There are a number of ways to gain bonuses or rerolls to any roll, but most of them would require retraining as they're feats or class abilities. Alternatively, there's the spell Alter Fortune in PHB2. It's low enough level (3rd level spell) that it is available to you, the druid and the cleric; it costs 200 xp per cast, but with 3 of you, that gives you 4 chances to beat the DC. It's also on pretty much every core spell list, so you could get scrolls of it instead of making everyone learn new spells.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm certain the DM would disallow taking 10 on the ability check, amusing though it would be, simply because an enemy NPC is using the spell frequently and there would be no excuse for him not to also do so unless it was impossible.

How do you know the enemy NPC isn't taking 10?


Miracle is a possibility, but the NPC cleric does not have great intelligence or charisma, and he's more useful than I am, so I don't want to risk him, either.

Alternatively, if any greater deity will do and the cleric worships one, s/he can just cast Commune.

[Aharon]

Miracle can also mimic effects of comparable levels, so you might be able to get the Artificer infusion that changes the bonus type of items for some time. Make it so your headband gives you a luck bonus, and use fox cunning for the enhancement bonus.

[Esgath]

Take 10. If your DM doesn't allow that for whatever reason (RAW it works), there is Ray of Hope from Book of Exalted Deeds, gives +2 morale bonus on ability checks and others iirc.

[Story]

Alternatively, there's the spell Alter Fortune in PHB2. It's low enough level (3rd level spell) that it is available to you, the druid and the cleric; it costs 200 xp per cast, but with 3 of you, that gives you 4 chances to beat the DC. It's also on pretty much every core spell list, so you could get scrolls of it instead of making everyone learn new spells.

Insight of Great Fortune is 2nd level and only costs 20gp.

[Aracor]

A luckstone gives a +1 luck bonus to ability checks and other things.

[Pickford]

Take 10 on the ability check? :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, RAW, this is possible. That makes the spell extremely useful and it doesn't have drawbacks anymore, so discuss it with your DM before bringing this up.

A level 17 cleric NPC has access to miracle, so he could duplicate the spell for you, if he is willing to bear the risk.

You could also buy a scroll of wish to gain a reroll - if your group has somebody with UMD.

The situation is far too stressful to take 10, presumably the wizard knows the consequences of failure. Edit: Why is contact other plane so necessary? The Cleric could cast divination or augury and get as good or better answers.

[Burpcycle]

The situation is far too stressful to take 10, presumably the wizard knows the consequences of failure. Edit: Why is contact other plane so necessary? The Cleric could cast divination or augury and get as good or better answers.

We need information on a particular demon. The cleric can only contact his own god - I don't know what god he worships, but it's certainly a LG or NG one, whereas I plan to contact evil deities for this information.

[Burpcycle]

Unfortunately, it doesn't work because both the spell and the Headband of Intellect are enhancement bonuses.

To the OP: There are a number of ways to gain bonuses or rerolls to any roll, but most of them would require retraining as they're feats or class abilities. Alternatively, there's the spell Alter Fortune in PHB2. It's low enough level (3rd level spell) that it is available to you, the druid and the cleric; it costs 200 xp per cast, but with 3 of you, that gives you 4 chances to beat the DC. It's also on pretty much every core spell list, so you could get scrolls of it instead of making everyone learn new spells.

Alter Fortune is interesting, and I'll bring it up, but I am not 100% certain the NPC cleric will be willing to blow experience helping us. That said, it's still possible. I'm still not comfortable with it, however, because even a reroll has a chance to fail.

[Sudain]

There are a couple re-roll items in the MIC. Might be worth a look. You don't need to buy it; just borrow.

[Aharon]

The situation is far too stressful to take 10, presumably the wizard knows the consequences of failure. Edit: Why is contact other plane so necessary? The Cleric could cast divination or augury and get as good or better answers.


I don't want to reopen an old can of worms, since this is an old discussion, so I'll just quote the SRD:


Taking 10

When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.


This is pretty clear-cut. Are you threatened? No. Are you distracted? Presumably also no. Ergo, you can take 10.

[Burpcycle]

I don't want to reopen an old can of worms, since this is an old discussion, so I'll just quote the SRD:



This is pretty clear-cut. Are you threatened? No. Are you distracted? Presumably also no. Ergo, you can take 10.

You're being threatened by the cost of failure, and the deity you contact dislikes being contacted.

[Aharon]

You're being threatened by the cost of failure, and the deity you contact dislikes being contacted.

By that logic, you could almost never take 10, because there are often negative consequences. It is intended that you can take 10 often, to make the game easier - and that you can take 10 even in dangerous, but non-threatening situations.

Take Swim, for example: the skill explicitly notes under which circumstances you can't take 10 (stormy water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/swim.htm)).

If you wear heavy armor and swim, you can take 10 in rough water - despite the possible cost of failure (going underwater if you don't have enough skill points in swim).

[Sudain]

I think the price of failure plays in here. Failing a swim, climb, jump, spellcraft, knowledge or most any other check has an cost, but with a little care and intelligence(See the pun I did there? Eh eh? :smallwink:) the cost can be largely mitigated.

The price for failure with contact other plane is a long-lasting lobotomy. There's not much he, or any other party member can do to mitigate the damage; so as a DM I'd say, he needs to roll that one.

Yes, taking 10 does allow you to speed up the game(or prevent it from being bogged down). So I'm not saying don't ask for it; but don't expect it.

[Burpcycle]

So is the only thing possible, besides expensive items I don't have access to, rerolls? Because they still carry the chance of failure. The only thing I could find with a significant bonus to intelligence checks is a truenamer ability.

[Story]

With 40% and 4 rerolls, you'll have an actual failure chance of only 1%. Add a +1 bonus, fairly easy to come by, and that drops to 0.53%.

Also, ask your DM if you can use Limited Wish. Automatically passing the ability check seems in line with the other effects.

[Aharon]

In case you missed it, the artificer infusion.

You could also use polymorph any object cheese to become a creature with high intelligence.

[Cruiser1]

Get an Amulet of Second Chances (MIC page 70). This allows you (or an ally standing next to you) to undo all events of your current turn (except presumably the 1/day use of the Amulet itself). If you get a bad result, use or have an ally use the Amulet, and try again tomorrow.

This is the item to use if you absolutely need 100% success, and don't want to risk even a bunch of rerolls that could all be bad. This item is great for casting Disjunction on artifacts (to undo the result of losing all spellcasting ability), and is the one effective way to abuse a Deck of Many Things (in case a bad card appears).

[Pickford]

By that logic, you could almost never take 10, because there are often negative consequences. It is intended that you can take 10 often, to make the game easier - and that you can take 10 even in dangerous, but non-threatening situations.

Take Swim, for example: the skill explicitly notes under which circumstances you can't take 10 (stormy water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/swim.htm)).

If you wear heavy armor and swim, you can take 10 in rough water - despite the possible cost of failure (going underwater if you don't have enough skill points in swim).

Problem: Being a 5th level spell you need at least 15 int as a wizard to cast. Thus if you 'can' cast the spell, you're guaranteed (if able to take 10) of contacting basically everything below a lesser deity. Why even have the table if there's basically 0 chance of failing if you can cast the spell?

[TaiLiu]

Problem: Being a 5th level spell you need at least 15 int as a wizard to cast. Thus if you 'can' cast the spell, you're guaranteed (if able to take 10) of contacting basically everything below a lesser deity. Why even have the table if there's basically 0 chance of failing if you can cast the spell?

Well, the Bardic Sage variant gets Contact Other Plane on their spell list, and there's always scrolls that could be used by characters with low INT scores.

[TuggyNE]

Problem: Being a 5th level spell you need at least 15 int as a wizard to cast. Thus if you 'can' cast the spell, you're guaranteed (if able to take 10) of contacting basically everything below a lesser deity. Why even have the table if there's basically 0 chance of failing if you can cast the spell?

Because it's possible to be a Sorcerer and cast it (it's an Int check, not an Int or Cha check); because it's possible to be threatened by some external force or be rushed in some other way; for completeness.

Note that a Sorcerer would probably be using a scroll if possible, but that doesn't change the requirements.

[Story]

I always assumed it was for Sorcerers.

[mattie_p]

Because it's possible to be a Sorcerer and cast it (it's an Int check, not an Int or Cha check); because it's possible to be threatened by some external force or be rushed in some other way; for completeness.

Note that a Sorcerer would probably be using a scroll if possible, but that doesn't change the requirements.

With a casting time of 10 minutes, I wonder who would possibly cast it while being threatened by an external force or being rushed.

I'm really of mixed opinions here regarding taking 10. I normally like PCs to take 10 as much as possible, but I really gotta say that making mental contact with a deity or elemental power of some kind is threatening.

[TuggyNE]

With a casting time of 10 minutes, I wonder who would possibly cast it while being threatened by an external force or being rushed.

If a rogue's holding a crossbow to your head demanding you cast the spell?


I'm really of mixed opinions here regarding taking 10. I normally like PCs to take 10 as much as possible, but I really gotta say that making mental contact with a deity or elemental power of some kind is threatening.

Much like, oh, taking 10 on a climb check to make sure you don't fall 1000 feet straight down?

[Elric VIII]

Could you hire a Marshal NPC for a short time?

[Slipperychicken]

Why even have the table if there's basically 0 chance of failing if you can cast the spell?

False. Failure is still possible (and perhaps more dangerous) if you roll poorly on the d% and get false information.

[Duke of Urrel]

This is a very interesting thread, because it has raised a question that for me at least has no simple or straightforward answer (though I'll try anyway): Can you take 10 on your Intelligence check when you use the Contact Other Plane spell?

It's pretty clear in the case of a skill like Climb or Swim that you can take 10 despite the risk that inherently belongs to the task of climbing or swimming. Taking 10 is disallowed only if you are distracted, for example by a pursuer, or if you are threatened, for example by an enemy who is trying to stab you or shoot at you. Either a distraction or a threat creates risk that does not normally belong to the task of climbing or swimming.

Contrast this with the Intelligence check that you make when you use the Contact Other Plane spell. Casting this spell risks damage to both Intelligence and Charisma for one or more weeks. Obviously, this risk does not inherently belong to the task of exercising your Intelligence. However, it is also unclear whether this risk is specifically caused by a distraction or an outside threat.

What causes you to risk ability damage when you cast the Contact Other Plane spell? Is it some kind of distraction, such as white noise from the Astral Plane? Is it a threat, because using this Divination makes your mind vulnerable to mind-weakening psionic attacks? Or is it neither of these things? Maybe if you're intelligent enough to avoid error by taking 10, that's all the extraplanar beings really care about. Maybe if you pass this test, you're allowed to make contact without risk of damage to your Intelligence or Charisma scores – but you still may not get exactly the answer you're looking for.

If you're trying specifically to contact an Evil deity, this may also influence our judgement about taking 10 – and probably not in its favor.

Personally, I am presently inclining toward allowing the caster of the Contact Other Plane spell to take 10.

On the other hand, I personally don't think this spell allows you to choose the alignment of your target. Even if you can eliminate the risk of ability damage by taking 10 (and I believe you can), there's always still a small chance with the Contact Other Plane spell that your answer will be "I don't know" or an outright lie. Maybe you will contact a truthful Good deity or an allied morally Neutral deity who just doesn't know the answer to your question, or maybe you will contact a knowledgeable Evil deity who just lies. What the percentage-dice rolls suggest to me is that the more intelligent you are, the more likely you will both choose a knowledgeable deity and command enough respect to get a straight and truthful answer, regardless of the deity's alignment.

Sorry if this only makes everything seem more complicated. Clearly, it is your DM's understanding of these matters that will be decisive, not mine.

[Psyren]

Much like, oh, taking 10 on a climb check to make sure you don't fall 1000 feet straight down?

Gravity is kind of always there, though. A resentful deity's mind, not so much.

I'm with the "you should have to roll this one" crowd. Though whoever mentioned Limited Wish is onto something too; even if "auto-succeed on my next ability check" is too much for it, a +7 untyped bonus plainly shouldn't be.

[Burpcycle]

Could you hire a Marshal NPC for a short time?

I would need to find one with a +int check aura, and I have little money at the moment.

[Crake]

If the information you're looking for is on a demon, I'm sure an imp would be happy to provide some information via it's commune ability? Just slap together an inward magic circle vs evil with the added diagram, use lesser planar binding and offer it some cash to answer some questions?

Edit: Or just offer it it's life if you're strapping for cash. You can pretty much hold it there indefinitely, and at your level you could probably kill it with one spell.
Edit2: Oh btw wrt the take 10 discussion, taking 10 can only be done with skill checks if you read the take 10 description in the glossary. I've never seen anything that implies you can take 10 on anything else with certain explicitly stated exceptions (like Arcane Mastery allowing you to take 10 on caster level checks).

[TuggyNE]

Edit2: Oh btw wrt the take 10 discussion, taking 10 can only be done with skill checks if you read the take 10 description in the glossary. I've never seen anything that implies you can take 10 on anything else with certain explicitly stated exceptions (like Arcane Mastery allowing you to take 10 on caster level checks).

The glossary isn't the primary source for, well, much of anything*. Here's what the actual primary source says:
Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks
The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to caster level checks.

Open and shut.

*And I can't figure out why people try to use it as such, either.

[Mnemnosyne]

There's a level 5 cleric spell called Surge of Fortune. At any time during the duration of that spell, you can expend it in order to make your next roll (of various specific kinds, including an ability check) into a natural 20.

If you can manage to get it cast on you - for instance, by having the cleric put it in a Greater Glyph Seal, then you trigger the glyph seal - you can guarantee that you get a natural 20 on your ability check.

Alternately, the cleric could use Surge of Fortune and then use Miracle to duplicate Contact other Plane, to get a natural 20 on his own ability check.

[Pickford]

The glossary isn't the primary source for, well, much of anything*. Here's what the actual primary source says:

Open and shut.

*And I can't figure out why people try to use it as such, either.

Glossaries are part of the 3 primary sources: PHB, MM, and DMG and those trump everything else. That's part of why the glossary is a primary source, it's also raw text, no tables. (Tables: Always secondary.)

So whenever you see a splat book disagree with the glossary of the PHB...the splat book is wrong. Whenver you see a table disagree with the glossary....the table is wrong. Always.

[Duke of Urrel]

Glossaries are part of the 3 primary sources: PHB, MM, and DMG and those trump everything else. That's part of why the glossary is a primary source, it's also raw text, no tables. (Tables: Always secondary.)

So whenever you see a splat book disagree with the glossary of the PHB...the splat book is wrong. Whenver you see a table disagree with the glossary....the table is wrong. Always.

The text Tuggyne quoted comes originally from the main text of page 65 of the PHB. The glossary can offer only a shortened version of what appears in the main text of the PHB, so I believe the main text is more likely to be definitive than the glossary.

That having been said, I am nearly a fence-sitter on the issue of rolling versus taking 10 on the Intelligence check to escape mental ability damage when casting the Contact Other Plane spell. I have no quarrel particularly with Burpcycle's DM if he or she rules against taking 10 here. There are good reasons not to allow it, and you've already offered some yourself.

I think what inclines me to allow taking 10 here is the fact that even a successful casting of the Contact Other Plane spell may have negative consequences (namely possibly getting the wrong answer or even a lie), and these cannot be avoided at all. When you reflect that the Commune spell has no negative consequences, doesn't one possible negative consequence seem to be enough?

On the other hand, only Burpcycle's DM knows how important the information is that Burpcycle is seeking, and only the DM knows how hard it should be to get. I agree with the reasoning that the Contact Other Plane spell also has a strong advantage over the Commune spell, because the cleric spell restricts you to a single deity, whereas the Contact Other Plane spell allows you to ask the deity most likely to know. So maybe the extra risk of Intelligence and Charisma damage is necessary for balance and shouldn't be avoidable by taking 10 on your Intelligence check. We can even argue that taking 10 shouldn't be allowed because it resembles a caster-level check, for which taking 10 (according to the text on page 65 of the PHB) is never allowed.

[Duke of Urrel]

One more thing.

One of the main differences between the Commune spell and the Contact Other Plane spell seems to be dungeon-master control. When you use the Commune spell, the DM seems to monopolize the power to decide whether the deity you contact knows the answer to your questions or not. When you use the Contact Other Plane spell, this "decision" seems to fall to a percentage-dice roll (though part of the descriptive text pretty obviously empowers the DM to block the Divination on "rare occasions," which I interpret as "when the DM thinks it would be game-breaking for you to learn a key secret too soon").

This suggests to me that the best way to avoid the risk of Intelligence and Charisma loss may be simply to contact a lower-level extraplanar being. Even a lowly native of an Elemental Plane may give you the right answer, and if you can cast the spell several times without risk of mental ability damage, you can consult several denizens of an Elemental Plane in a row and let the majority rule if there's a difference of opinion.

It seems to me that randomness is built into the Contact Other Plane spell, and not always to your disadvantage. I don't believe you can "aim" this spell to contact a particular deity, but I do believe that with increasing Intelligence, you become increasingly likely to reach a divine minion or representative who knows the answer you are looking for. For example, you may fail to reach Asmodeus personally, but if you reach his Undersecretary for Extraplanar Inquiries, who knows nearly as much as he does (and maybe a thing or two that he doesn't), you may get the same answer, or even a true answer rather than a lie. There are also fluffy ways to explain why even a comparatively low-ranking efreeti may know things about Asmodeus that he's not supposed to know. After all, efreet are frequently summoned to perform all kinds of services for devilkind, and servants are often full to brimming with both secrets about and resentments toward their former taskmasters.

So maybe the best strategy is to argue with your DM that when you cast the Contact Other Plane spell, you should be able to avoid the risk of contacting a seriously high-level deity, but still get a correct answer.

[Burpcycle]

There's a level 5 cleric spell called Surge of Fortune. At any time during the duration of that spell, you can expend it in order to make your next roll (of various specific kinds, including an ability check) into a natural 20.

If you can manage to get it cast on you - for instance, by having the cleric put it in a Greater Glyph Seal, then you trigger the glyph seal - you can guarantee that you get a natural 20 on your ability check.

Alternately, the cleric could use Surge of Fortune and then use Miracle to duplicate Contact other Plane, to get a natural 20 on his own ability check.

I'm not sure the cleric will be willing to pay the experience cost for miracle, but I could bring this up. The surge of fortune / greater glyph seal trick is clever, but I don't have 4000 gold to throw around at the moment. I may have it later, and I'll keep this in mind.

[Psyren]

Glossaries are part of the 3 primary sources: PHB, MM, and DMG and those trump everything else. That's part of why the glossary is a primary source, it's also raw text, no tables. (Tables: Always secondary.)

So whenever you see a splat book disagree with the glossary of the PHB...the splat book is wrong. Whenver you see a table disagree with the glossary....the table is wrong. Always.

Tugg's quote isn't from a splat though, it's from the PHB. You can take 10 with ability checks no problem. (Also, "specific trumps general" takes precedence over the "primary source rule" - otherwise, there would only be 11 base classes in D&D 3.5 per the PHB.)

The question then becomes "does the ability check for CoP count as being threatened?" I would personally say yes, given that the entities "resent" your mental contact.


I'm not sure the cleric will be willing to pay the experience cost for miracle, but I could bring this up. The surge of fortune / greater glyph seal trick is clever, but I don't have 4000 gold to throw around at the moment. I may have it later, and I'll keep this in mind.

Miracle costs no XP at all if you're using it to duplicate a spell, unless the spell itself costs XP.

[Burpcycle]

Tugg's quote isn't from a splat though, it's from the PHB. You can take 10 with ability checks no problem. (Also, "specific trumps general" takes precedence over the "primary source rule" - otherwise, there would only be 11 base classes in D&D 3.5 per the PHB.)

The question then becomes "does the ability check for CoP count as being threatened?" I would personally say yes, given that the entities "resent" your mental contact.



Miracle costs no XP at all if you're using it to duplicate a spell, unless the spell itself costs XP.

Oh, that's different, then. However, the cleric is good-aligned, so I'm not 100% sure he'll be willing to contact evil deities and they'll answer him, but it's certainly worth bringing up, thank you. My wizard is lawful neutral, if it matters.

[Psyren]

Oh, that's different, then. However, the cleric is good-aligned, so I'm not 100% sure he'll be willing to contact evil deities and they'll answer him, but it's certainly worth bringing up, thank you. My wizard is lawful neutral, if it matters.

Think of it this way: Miracle is a request. If his deity allows it, clearly he wanted your team to be able to talk to this other deity, whether the other is evil or not. If his deity doesn't allow it, the spell will simply fail, but with no exp loss or other drawbacks.

So either way you have nothing to lose.


Planar politics are complicated. Take the OotS - Thor is a Good deity, yet he had no problems with one of his priests chatting up Tiamat's prophet for answers, despite her being evil.

[Pickford]

Tugg's quote isn't from a splat though, it's from the PHB. You can take 10 with ability checks no problem. (Also, "specific trumps general" takes precedence over the "primary source rule" - otherwise, there would only be 11 base classes in D&D 3.5 per the PHB.)

The question then becomes "does the ability check for CoP count as being threatened?" I would personally say yes, given that the entities "resent" your mental contact.



Miracle costs no XP at all if you're using it to duplicate a spell, unless the spell itself costs XP.

I know, I was just speaking to his suggestion that the Glossary isn't a primary source, it is.

[TuggyNE]

I know, I was just speaking to his suggestion that the Glossary isn't a primary source, it is.

I might have been using the wrong term, sorry. Taking the glossary over other primary sources is what I was referring to primarily, actually; the glossary may well take precedence over splatbooks, but it certainly doesn't control when there's a dispute between it and something in the PHB or DMG (or even the RC, for that matter).

[Pickford]

I might have been using the wrong term, sorry. Taking the glossary over other primary sources is what I was referring to primarily, actually; the glossary may well take precedence over splatbooks, but it certainly doesn't control when there's a dispute between it and something in the PHB or DMG (or even the RC, for that matter).

Well, the Glossary is part of the PHB...so in PHB vs DMG on matters for which PHB is the primary source (rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions).

Rules Compendium isn't a primary source and it's not errata, so when it disagrees the main books (with errata applied) are considered to be the correct rules.

[Psyren]

Well, the Glossary is part of the PHB...so in PHB vs DMG on matters for which PHB is the primary source (rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions).

Rules Compendium isn't a primary source and it's not errata, so when it disagrees the main books (with errata applied) are considered to be the correct rules.

Ah, so you're another one who believes that there are only 11 classes in D&D 3.5.