Nerfing spells due to level cap

[Balor01]

Hey playground,

In my game, I have a level cap at spell level 5(wizards did it by messing with Baaad stuff). No spell higher then this may be cast, including metamagic(highest spell slot available is lvl 5). My players have now entered a part of a large dungeon in which, as module states, exists a monster that can cast spells above lvl 5. (in this case astral projection and plane shift). I would like to change these spells with something, so I do not just take them avay from this NPC. Both enable creature to flee (and point of this creature is to flee and not fight), so I guess I could change them for some up-to level 5 spells that offer similar, yet weaker effects.

Or ... some other suggestion may work.

Anyway: My players will encounter monsters that, by MM statblocks can cast 5+ level spells and I want to change them in some optimized way, not just take them from them.

thanks

Hwarlg: Alhoon Sor9; CR 19, Medium-size undead
mind flayer; HD 8d12+9d4; hp 80; Init +6 (+2 Dex, +4
Improved Initiative); Spd 30; AC 26; Atk: +12 melee
(1d4+1, 4 tentacles); SA Spells, mind blast, psionics,
grab, extract; SQ Damage reduction 15/+1, undead
immunities, spells, telepathy, immune to cold, electricity,
polymorph, mind-affecting attacks; AL LE; SR 25; SV
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +19; Str 12, Dex 14, Con —, Int 21,
Wis 19, Cha 19.
Skills and Feats: Alchemy +18, Concentration +22, Hide
+10, Intimidate +18, Knowledge (arcana) +18, Listen +24,
Spellcraft +18, Move Silently +10, Search +12, Sense
Motive +13, Spot +24; Alertness, Combat Casting, Dodge,
Heighten Spell, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Spell Penetration,
Weapon Finesse (tentacle).
Special Attacks:
Mind Blast:
This psionic ability is a cone 60 feet long; anyone caught in this cone must make a Will
save (DC 17) or be stunned for 3d4 rounds. Psionics: Mind
flayers can employ the following powers as 8th-level sorcerers:
charm person, detect thoughts, levitate, suggestion,
charm monster, ESP, astral projection, and plane shift. Save
DCs, where applicable, are 13 plus the spell level.

Grab:
When mind flayer hits a foe of Small, Medium, or Large
size with a tentacle, make a grappling check; a mind flayer
that gets a hold attaches the tentacle to the foe’s head.
Once a mind flayer has any tentacles attached to a foe, it
can try to attach its remaining tentacles with a single grappling
check. The foe can escape from the mind flayer’s
grasp with a single successful grapple check or Escape Artist
check, but the mind flayer gets a +2 to its grapple check for
every tentacle that was attached at the beginning of the
foe’s action. Extract: When a mind flayer begins its action
with all four tentacles attached to a foe and successfully
maintains its hold, it automatically extracts the foe’s brain,
instantly killing the foe.

Special Qualities: Telepathy: Mind flayers can communicate
telepathically with any creature within 100 feet so
long as the creature speaks a language. Undead Immunities:
Immune to mind-influencing effects, poison, sleep, paralysis,
stunning, and disease; not subject to critical hits, ability
damage, energy drain, or death from massive damage.
Possessions: +4 bracers of armor.
Spells Known (cast 6/7/7/7/5): 0—arcane mark, detect
magic, disrupt undead, flare, mage hand, ray of frost, read
magic, resistance; 1st—alarm, burning hands, change self, comprehend
languages, magic missile; 2nd—continual flame,
endurance, flaming sphere, web; 3rd—fireball, slow, stinking
cloud; 4th—fear, summon monster IV.

Fiendish Dire Wolf: CR 3; Large magical beast; HD
6d8+18; hp 47; Init +2 (Dex); Spd 50 ft.; AC 14; Atk +10
melee (1d8+10, bite); SA Trip, smite good; SQ Scent,
darkvision 60 ft., cold/fire resistance 10, damage reduction
+5/1, SR 12; AL LE; SV Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +6; Str 25,
Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10.
Skills and Feats: Hide +5, Listen +6, Move Silently +5,
Spot +6, Wilderness Lore +1.
Special Attacks: Smite Good: On a normal attack, can
inflict additional damage equal to HD total, 1/day.

[Carth]

It can cast dismissal on itself to return to its home plane, if that will be sufficient, and teleport wherever it wants on the plane from there.

[Balor01]

@Carth
1. How could this creature cast Dismissal? It does not ahve it among Spells Known. But I guess what you are saying ist that astral projection and plane shift could be exchanged for dismissal? Not bad, but I would still like an "exchange" for the toher of two spells


2. Info I have forgotten: It has on itself cast Dimensional anchor. Some adventurers did it, who he managed to kill, but got stranded in a large cave

[Carth]

I was advocating simply changing its spells known entirely. If it has dimensional anchor on it, you could simply have it cast xorn movement to escape. Unless your PCs have burrow speeds or similar methods to pursue, this would be an easy way to escape.

[Balor01]

@Carth
Ah, I see. Nah, all I want is to change is mentioned spells. And rule-of-the-thumb for doing so generally, would be welcome too.

[Mnemnosyne]

Dismissal wouldn't work anyway; a mind flayer's home plane is almost certainly the Prime Material, so unless this adventure is taking place on another plane, the alhoon wouldn't be able to dismiss itself.

My suggestion on this specific monster? Use the stats for a Psionic Mind Flayer from the XPH, they're supposed to be psionic anyway, and the psionic mind flayer only has powers up to 5th level listed.

Otherwise...astral caravan as a psi-like ability could replace astral projection. Doesn't really do the same thing, but it's related enough that it seems like a logical swap. In most cases, it's probably more useful than astral projection, unless your NPC is really making full use of projection somehow.

Plane shift doesn't have to be changed at all. Plane shift, psionic is a 5th level power, and plane shift is a 5th level spell on the cleric list.

[Krobar]

I'm curious... what did the wizards do that was so bad you altered the entire game world as a result?

[Slipperychicken]

I'm curious... what did the wizards do that was so bad you altered the entire game world as a result?

DM's can get very jumpy when they hear enough horror-stories about Wizards. Also, maybe the DM doesn't want to have the PCs teleporting around (or has a LotR-esque epic travel campaign in mind)?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

DM's can get very jumpy when they hear enough horror-stories about Wizards. Also, maybe the DM doesn't want to have the PCs teleporting around (or has a LotR-esque epic travel campaign in mind)?

Well with fifth level spells you have teleport, overland flight, etc so epic fail at stopping that convention. I'm kind of curious how this world is being run, are casters playing e10 while everyone else plays d20?

As for the OP's question.

Plane Shift-Firstly it's on the Cleric list as a level 5 so presumably it's available in world. If it isn't you'll need another way to explain any extraplanars in your world. If it must go, Teleport will fill the instant get out of here role and could take them to a location with a planar gate.

When it's not being abused, Astral Projection doesn't really do all that much. I think this ability can be ignored or replaced with a divination effect.

[Krobar]

DM's can get very jumpy when they hear enough horror-stories about Wizards. Also, maybe the DM doesn't want to have the PCs teleporting around (or has a LotR-esque epic travel campaign in mind)?

But he said "(wizards did it by messing with Baaad stuff)" which implies to me he made this decision due to specific things the wizards did. I'm simply trying to find out what.

Personally, I probably wouldn't have handled whatever it was that way. In my game, when wizards "mess with baaad stuff" they tend to make powerful enemies who will turn them into a greasy spot.

[XionUnborn01]

But he said "(wizards did it by messing with Baaad stuff)" which implies to me he made this decision due to specific things the wizards did. I'm simply trying to find out what.

Personally, I probably wouldn't have handled whatever it was that way. In my game, when wizards "mess with baaad stuff" they tend to make powerful enemies who will turn them into a greasy spot.

I'm pretty sure he's using that as a generalization saying that casters did something bad and now magic is borked. I don't think it's necessarily fair to say you wouldn't have handled it that way because it's more than likely a large plot central point to the campaign. Also, I'm reading that as it was a group of people, not specifically saying "there was a person playing a wizard that did something bad so no more spells over 5th level because I didn't know what else to do to keep them in check."

[Balor01]

@Krobar
Metagame wise, I do not want high level spells (6+ level) in my games (which are mostly E6 anyway). According to my experience with 3.5, spells from lvl 1 - 5 are more then enough for a caster to support and even solo most of encounters. Also, I really dislike number grind, needed for high-level spells.

Story wise, here is what happened: There were two rather small human and dwarven kingdoms. In just a few centuries they both managed to produce a rather large number of lvl 20 casters and, human kingdom, being LE, got in a short war with dwarven kingdom, who was dominantly LN or LG.

The clash completely destroyed both kingdoms, turned them into Arcane Badlands, involved and killed most of normal DnD pantheon and even gave birth to an old diety of magic. It "crippled" magic itself. Thus, no spell slot higher then lvl 5 is available.

[Krobar]

@Krobar
Metagame wise, I do not want high level spells (6+ level) in my games (which are mostly E6 anyway). According to my experience with 3.5, spells from lvl 1 - 5 are more then enough for a caster to support and even solo most of encounters. Also, I really dislike number grind, needed for high-level spells.

Story wise, here is what happened: There were two rather small human and dwarven kingdoms. In just a few centuries they both managed to produce a rather large number of lvl 20 casters and, human kingdom, being LE, got in a short war with dwarven kingdom, who was dominantly LN or LG.

The clash completely destroyed both kingdoms, turned them into Arcane Badlands, involved and killed most of normal DnD pantheon and even gave birth to an old diety of magic. It "crippled" magic itself. Thus, no spell slot higher then lvl 5 is available.

So it's background then, not the party casters. I misunderstood. I thought it was your players who did something borked, resulting in your decision.

Does this affect SLAs too (i.e. no SLAs that duplicate 6th or higher level spells)?

[Feralventas]

Meta-game-wise, if you don't want to deal with number-crunch, you might consider looking into non-numerical spell effects; avoid damage and lots of dice, just go straight for the save-or-effect and utility spells like Wall of Force and the like.

You could also consider splitting their Casting with Manifesting levels, as an Alhoon, IIRC, is a Mindflayer before their current state and they are kinda famed for psionics. Of course this means more numbers for YOU, but as the DM you should be able to keep that from impeding the game too much.

In addition, you might look into weaker "casting" classes that are fluffed as using non-traditional magical sources of power. Swordsage's Desert Wind and Shadow Hand maneuvers might work, as could the Shadowcaster (mechanically weak 'caster, fairly meek and small spell list, more restrictive spells known/per-day system than a sorcerer, comes with some 'meh' class features for it).



So yeah, if the monster's casting levels go past your cap, switch them to a weaker system, or split their caster level into caster level/something-else-level so that they still have plenty of options available, some of them probably foreign and mysterious to the party, while still avoiding breaking your cap.



.....I just realized something, by "level 5+" do you mean SPELL level 5 or CASTER level 5, as the Alhoon only has 4th level spells, but the mentions of E6 make me think CL5.

[Balor01]

.....I just realized something, by "level 5+" do you mean SPELL level 5 or CASTER level 5, as the Alhoon only has 4th level spells, but the mentions of E6 make me think CL5.

Highest spells/SLAs that can manifest are level 5.