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Alex Star
2013-03-06, 11:19 AM
Okay so I've got an issue and I'm hoping maybe you can help me out of a bit of a corner I've written myself into in one of my games that I DM.

This one has a fairly advanced economy and the players are more involved in intrigue and politics than combat at the moment. So I've been very careful to make sure things are very well planned out. Here are the details.

NOTE: Trade is governed by strict magic regulation that essentially prevents any and all illegal activity from happening.

CityA has very strict trade laws, these laws include measures on how much an idividual corporation can spend with a goods supplier over a period of time (200k gold over 1 year). This is in place to force larger companies to spread their wealth instead of just growing mega-corps/mega-supplier partnerships. In addition in order to sell certain goods you also have to have certain permits which take time to obtain.

So here is the issue that I need to get around in a way that can be satisfactorially explained to my players.

BuyerA needs to buy more than 200k gold worth of goods from SellerA. SellerA obviously can only sell BuyerA 200k worth of goods. SellerA could theoretically use an intermediary SellerB to act as a go-between. However, this causes an issue because SellerA is the only one with the permit to sell this specific product (this is important for campaign purposes that they are the only company who can sell it.).

Outsie of having another seller get this permit, or having to wait an entire year to sell more of it to the buyer. What creative options not using magic can you come up with to solve this?

I'm sure some MBA or economics major out there can have some fun with this one. Also I'm sure there are some details I've overlooked that will stop a few easy fixes that my addled brain isn't remembering right now, so bear with me if I have to shoot a few down.

Moriwen
2013-03-06, 11:24 AM
Could they apply to the government for a special exemption, on the grounds that this particular exchange is important to something (the growth of the economy, attracting tourists, saving the world...)?

How good are the detection spells? Could they claim that it was less than 200k worth, and fudge the payment by having part of it be in goods or services rather than cash?

Alex Star
2013-03-06, 11:40 AM
Could they apply to the government for a special exemption, on the grounds that this particular exchange is important to something (the growth of the economy, attracting tourists, saving the world...)?

How good are the detection spells? Could they claim that it was less than 200k worth, and fudge the payment by having part of it be in goods or services rather than cash?

Option 1 is the only possibility I have on my own, but my concern is that it creates a dangerous precident that I know my players will try and exploit. Option 2 is out as the actual amount is close to 400k.

Gnomish Wanderer
2013-03-06, 12:00 PM
Is there any way to change the market value of the product in question by half? Maybe oversaturate the market temporarily, drop the price so they can buy 200k worth of goods but be getting around 400k worth at the old price?

Guunshtaff
2013-03-06, 12:07 PM
Could BuyerA team up with a BuyerB? A buys 200k, B buys 200k, 400k bought in total. I'm sure there are details, but that's a thought. Alternatively, how critical is it that 400k of the product is purchased? Are we talking game over? TPK? If this isn't the case, then maybe it would be okay for the party to just be out of luck as long as what they wind up having to do instead is still fun. Sometimes, even with a whole Sapphire Guard of paladins, you can't protect a gate, so you gotta blow it up instead.

Alex Star
2013-03-06, 12:42 PM
Could BuyerA team up with a BuyerB? A buys 200k, B buys 200k, 400k bought in total. I'm sure there are details, but that's a thought. Alternatively, how critical is it that 400k of the product is purchased? Are we talking game over? TPK? If this isn't the case, then maybe it would be okay for the party to just be out of luck as long as what they wind up having to do instead is still fun. Sometimes, even with a whole Sapphire Guard of paladins, you can't protect a gate, so you gotta blow it up instead.

That option might work. At least to get the goods into the city. And no this isn't for the party, this is actually for the BBEG.

Long story short the BBEG is playing by the rules here. I want this all to be legit in the eyes of the players, because they don't know it's the BBEG yet.

W3bDragon
2013-03-07, 05:11 AM
I know you said the BBEG is playing by the rules, but then he's the BBEG, he might bend them from time to time. Here are some options:


Option 1: Could it be possible for him to sabotage the trade route somehow? If he could create a situation where the trade routes become dangerous or difficult, that could be grounds for getting two years worth of supply from SellerA upfront until the trade routes become safe or are repaired.

Option 2: You could set up a situation where BuyerA loans SellerA a substantial sum of gold, say 300k gold. The gold is loaned to SellerA so that SellerA could purchase the irrelevant ProductB from some faraway land to sell back to BuyerA. BuyerA in truth has no interest in ProductB. He just wants SellerA to be stuck with too much goods and not enough gold to pay the loan, at which point BuyerA can demand his loan be paid, but then eventually accept goods in exchange, say 200k worth. This is on top of the usual 200k worth of trade between them.

Option 3: BuyerA can setup himself to be a silent partner in a new business (BuyerB). Then Buyer A and BuyerB both purchase 200k each from SellerA.

nedz
2013-03-07, 07:42 AM
Buyer and Seller leave the jurisdiction of the city and perform the deal there. This could be another town, on a boat or on another plane etc.

Laws like this always lead to a black market and off-shore transactions.

Off-Balance sheet transactions are also a thing.
The deal takes place, but the accounts are falsified so that it appears legit.

Also, Barter can occur.

Rhynn
2013-03-07, 08:51 AM
Buyer and Seller leave the jurisdiction of the city and perform the deal there. This could be another town, on a boat or on another plane etc.

Laws like this always lead to a black market and off-shore transactions.

Off-Balance sheet transactions are also a thing.
The deal takes place, but the accounts are falsified so that it appears legit.

This seems like the most likely scenario, yeah. Black market & smuggling. They could even simply instruct proxies to make the deals for them somewhere else.

Another one: Hollywood Accounting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Accounting). Set up a shell corporation run by some stooge that's nothing more than a warehouse (rented from the Buyer) which buys the supplies from the Seller (with money loaned by Buyer, above or under the table). You can take this further by having the Shell then rent facilities and workforce - or just subcontract the production involving the supplies - from Buyer. Then gut the Shell with fees, loan payments, paying for consulting, outrageous rents, whatever. Wrong as heck but likely technically legal. (This is how movies that make hundreds of millions above their budget in box office post losses but still make a ton of money for the producers.)

elliott20
2013-03-07, 10:18 AM
Buyer and Seller leave the jurisdiction of the city and perform the deal there. This could be another town, on a boat or on another plane etc.

Laws like this always lead to a black market and off-shore transactions.

Off-Balance sheet transactions are also a thing.
The deal takes place, but the accounts are falsified so that it appears legit.

Also, Barter can occur.

This. This so much. It is probably the most efficient way for a company to handle this.

The devil is really in the details though. Does the law stipulate that a corporation can only SELL 200K worth of stuff, or that the buyer can only BUY 200K worth of stuff or that only 200K worth of money can come of this transaction? what is it exactly? the details on how this was written up could change how you can circumvent this. However, all things considered, the off shore transaction is the easiest way of handling it. If you want to make it seem really legit, just have the party pay a tax on the additional goods on their way in.

JusticeZero
2013-03-07, 10:23 AM
CityA has very strict trade laws, these laws include measures on how much an idividual corporation can spend with a goods supplier over a period of time (200k gold over 1 year)..
The way that a corporation normally bypasses such laws is to create several subsidiary corporations and then have the subsidiaries distribute the sale. Large corps routinely control a number of sub-corps. If that doesn't work, they might contract other corps to buy for them in return for a small fee.

Slipperychicken
2013-03-07, 11:13 PM
The way that a corporation normally bypasses such laws is to create several subsidiary corporations and then have the subsidiaries distribute the sale. Large corps routinely control a number of sub-corps. If that doesn't work, they might contract other corps to buy for them in return for a small fee.

This.

Also, these are extremely stupid laws. You care about market share and influence, not spending a specific quantity on a given supplier. Just have a trust-buster commission empowered to break up monopolies who exceed a certain market share (30%-40% of total market?) in some industries.

Rhynn
2013-03-07, 11:55 PM
This.

Also, these are extremely stupid laws. You care about market share and influence, not spending a specific quantity on a given supplier. Just have a trust-buster commission empowered to break up monopolies who exceed a certain market share (30%-40% of total market?) in some industries.

Also, if this is a pseudo-medieval magical D&D world, odds are pretty good that there's no way to really get around the law (except for influence, like bribery) because the authorities will go "screw what the law says, you're obviously breaking the spirit of it and I sentence you to be stoned to death in the market square."

nedz
2013-03-08, 06:29 AM
That reminds me: Regulatory Capture.
This is where the rich merchants buy (bribe) the legal authority.
Monopoly yeah !

Until comparatively modern times monopolies were quite common.

Rhynn
2013-03-08, 10:08 AM
Until comparatively modern times monopolies were quite common.

In Medieval Europe, they weren't just the rule, they were enforced (emphasis on force) and legally mandated.

elliott20
2013-03-08, 10:46 AM
I'm actually more surprised that the corporation in question hasn't tried to bring in one of the ruling noblemans on their payroll so that he can influence changing the law.

nedz
2013-03-08, 05:44 PM
In Medieval Europe, they weren't just the rule, they were enforced (emphasis on force) and legally mandated.

Yes, but they didn't cover everything.

Khedrac
2013-03-09, 04:00 AM
So far as I can see your problem is the interaction of the two limits (yes I know I am stating the obvious):

CityA has very strict trade laws, these laws include measures on how much an individual corporation can spend with a goods supplier over a period of time (200k gold over 1 year).This first one seems unusual, but OK, some really silly laws have been passed in history so who are we to judge (/em glares at the banks). Basically this is just a different take on anti-monopoly laws.


However, this causes an issue because SellerA is the only one with the permit to sell this specific product (this is important for campaign purposes that they are the only company who can sell it.).Monopoly charters are certainly reasonable - they happened enough in the past and still do with patents.

Now you actually have something positive going for you as this culture has the magic to enforce the single supplier law (and catch most evasion methods) they have the magic that is trustworthy enough to permit waivers.
Now a lot depends on the product in question (its price and people's potential need), but looking at the parts:

A culture with such anti-monopoly laws would have to have a very good reason to grant a monopoly patent. They are also going to ensure that it is not abused. So suppose SellerA has demonstrated that they are the only people who can produce the material in a satisfactory manner (i.e. no mass deaths etc.) - if the production is dangerous enough they would get the monopoly. Fine.
Now once they have a monopoly the city should be ensuring that while they get to make a fair profit, they are not holding everyone to ransom - i.e. external price controls - and the magic should ensure that the set prices are fair to both sides.
Now given that SellerA has been granted a monopoly, the single supplier limit should automatically be suspended for that product. The monopoly has been given for a specific reason and specifics should trump general.
I say should, as they may want to look at the product and ask whether it is reasonable for a company to want to buy that much in a year (depends on the product and price). Equally despite the logic, buyers might have to apply for a licence to breach the single supplier limit.

Either way the moment the authorities grant production monopolies they have to permit breaches of their single supplier law.

Oh yes, option 2 - also totally legitimate:
SupplierA sells 200,000gp worth of the product to multiple distributers (after all no one distributer can handle more).
BuyerA buys from more than one distributer.

Option 3 - wholesale price is less than retail, BuyerA pays wholesale which brings it below the limit.

eepop
2013-03-11, 12:41 PM
Seller A procures 2 identical ships.
Fill ship 1 with the $200K of cargo.
Leave ship 2 empty, or fill with something of no consequence.

Buyer A officially buys Ship 2, Ship 1 is sold to a "buyer in a foreign market".

Both ships set sail the same day, a storm hits, and you pull the ole switcheroo.
Sail ship 1 to Buyer A, sail ship 2 off for a few months and come back empty.