[3.5] Kneeling and using a Longbow

[SapereAude1490]

The title says it. Can you use a longbow while kneeling? IRL and by RAW?

[Flickerdart]

Kneeling is not a condition, unlike Prone, and carries no restrictions on using weapons. All it does is factor into determining your AC against melee and ranged attacks.

[SapereAude1490]

Ah, ****...

[Seharvepernfan]

So I can kneel or get up from a kneel anytime I want with no action? Because I can't find where it says otherwise.

[Unusual Muse]

IRL, no; an actual authentic longbow is longer than your typical modern-day compound bow.

In-game, what would be the purpose of kneeling?

[Flickerdart]

In-game, what would be the purpose of kneeling?
A kneeling or sitting character has +2 AC against ranged attacks, but -2 AC against melee attacks.

[ericgrau]

So I can kneel or get up from a kneel anytime I want with no action? Because I can't find where it says otherwise.
I can't find any rule on it one way or another anywhere in the SRD, for that matter. I'd suggest using SAGA rules where dropping to a kneel is a free action and standing up is a move action that doesn't provoke.

The first should be obvious because dropping to prone is a free action. The second is arguable but I'd say it's a pretty reasonable amount of time to stand up again. And unlike standing from prone it doesn't provoke, which makes sense since you should be able to maneuver and defend yourself reasonably well as you do it.

Cover and kneeling should be standard tactics for anyone who is ranged.

As for realism, you just angle the bow a tiny bit. Or even a 5 foot long bow could probably be used without being angled. The rules prohibit a bow when prone, but not while kneeling.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

You could fire a longbow improperly holding it sideways. As has been said before kneeling isn't a mechanical condition in d20. So, if it seems cinematic that a shot would have been taken from a kneeling position, I guess let it go. Alternatively if you were in a scenario where by using a 3d map it seemed that someone shouldn't have line of sight/effect from eye level, ut would from lower some kind of adhoc penalty wouldn't be out of line.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

A kneeling or sitting character has +2 AC against ranged attacks, but -2 AC against melee attacks.

Do you have a better reference than SAGA? Ignorance of this rule seems pretty wide spread.

[ericgrau]

Right here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm

I only used SAGA for the action type. The 3.5 SRD gives attack bonus and AC modifiers for kneeling but doesn't say how you ever reach or leave that position.

[Norin]

Wouldn't you be able to use a longbow in this fashion?

http://cache-cdn.kalaydo.de/mmo/6/302/208/36_-423102487.jpg

It's modeled after an english longbowman. No idea if it's hostoricaly correct or not though.

[ericgrau]

More images, with rather long bows used while kneeling:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=kneeling+with+longbow&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43287494,d.aWM&biw=1440&bih=755&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=a6M3UZS7HoXmqQGBnoHQDQ

I thought I'd kneel and grab a yardstick, and found over 3 feet from my hand to the ground. Plenty for half a bow. I'm not that tall. I don't see what the problem is.

[Unusual Muse]

Wouldn't you be able to use a longbow in this fashion?

http://cache-cdn.kalaydo.de/mmo/6/302/208/36_-423102487.jpg

It's modeled after an english longbowman. No idea if it's hostoricaly correct or not though.

English longbows were generally 6'+ long, depending on the height of the archer. So no, that mini is not accurate.

On a related note, the Japanese used a bow called the Daikyu that had its grip offset from the center of the bow so that it could be fired from horseback. In game terms, I'd say someone could use this type of bow kneeling with no penalty, but for a traditional longbow I'd probably throw on a -4 penalty, kinda like using an improvised weapon, since you'd have to hold it sideways and use it in a way it wasn't designed for.

[Norin]

More images, with rather long bows used while kneeling:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=kneeling+with+longbow&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43287494,d.aWM&biw=1440&bih=755&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=a6M3UZS7HoXmqQGBnoHQDQ

I thought I'd kneel and grab a yardstick, and found over 3 feet from my hand to the ground. Plenty for half a bow. I'm not that tall. I don't see what the problem is.

Lol, what?
http://image3.spreadshirt.net/image-server/v1/products/25580816/views/1,width=378,height=378,appearanceId=2/archer-longbow-kneeling-stance-by-patjila-Underwear.png




English longbows were generally 6'+ long, depending on the height of the archer. So no, that mini is not accurate.


Ah, thanks. I did not know. :smallsmile:

[Shining Wrath]

It is possible to orient a bow horizontally, especially if you are a skilled user.

[Deaxsa]

It is possible to orient a bow horizontally, especially if you are a skilled user.

it's also possible to orient a car vertically, if you are a skilled user. doesn't mean it works well in that position. i mean, a longbow? well, i guess that's up to the DM as longbows in DND are not true longbows, what you want for that is the Greatbow. however, why not just use a shortbow?


Wouldn't you be able to use a longbow in this fashion?

http://cache-cdn.kalaydo.de/mmo/6/302/208/36_-423102487.jpg

It's modeled after an english longbowman. No idea if it's hostoricaly correct or not though.

this is what i see as a DnD Longbow. i see a DnD Greatbow/Bonebow as a real longbow, and a shortbow as a horn bow or horse bow.

[Spuddles]

A longbow is merely a bow that's roughly as tall as its user. A 6 foot
Bow could easily be fire from kneeling with only three feet and an inch of clearance between hand and ground.

The Welsh bow was the real big longbow you're thinking of, but that was by no means the "standard" length of a longbow.

[edit]
just read the wikipedia page on english longbows. The biggest ones were like 6'6" and had draw weights of 200lbs. That's freakin ridiculous- definitely greatbow stuff there.

[Seharvepernfan]

it's also possible to orient a car vertically, if you are a skilled user.

Kudos, good sir. Kudos.

Made. my. day.

[TuggyNE]

it's also possible to orient a car vertically, if you are a skilled user. doesn't mean it works well in that position. i mean, a longbow?

Why wouldn't a longbow work well that way? The string and limbs don't care what orientation you have; mechanically, the body is perfectly capable of drawing a bow that is nearly horizontal, and it does not appear to affect accuracy significantly. The only potential problem is the arrow rest, but when you realize you're just shifting the angle at which it rests from the bottom of the notch to the side, it all works out.

[Shining Wrath]

Why wouldn't a longbow work well that way? The string and limbs don't care what orientation you have; mechanically, the body is perfectly capable of drawing a bow that is nearly horizontal, and it does not appear to affect accuracy significantly. The only potential problem is the arrow rest, but when you realize you're just shifting the angle at which it rests from the bottom of the notch to the side, it all works out.

I owned a bow when I was young. Can't say I was proficient, but even in my non-proficiency I could twist my left wrist and still fire with some degree of accuracy.

A person who can fire two devastatingly powerful shots in a round while riding a Pegasus through a magical windstorm ought to be able to manage it. Verisimilitude, not reality!

[Shining Wrath]

A longbow is merely a bow that's roughly as tall as its user. A 6 foot
Bow could easily be fire from kneeling with only three feet and an inch of clearance between hand and ground.

The Welsh bow was the real big longbow you're thinking of, but that was by no means the "standard" length of a longbow.

[edit]
just read the wikipedia page on english longbows. The biggest ones were like 6'6" and had draw weights of 200lbs. That's freakin ridiculous- definitely greatbow stuff there.

And that's why they don't speak English in France. An English longbowman was an awesome fighter, as seen at Agincourt and Crecy, but you can't subdue a nation with a few thousand longbowmen.

[Unusual Muse]

Why wouldn't a longbow work well that way? The string and limbs don't care what orientation you have; mechanically, the body is perfectly capable of drawing a bow that is nearly horizontal, and it does not appear to affect accuracy significantly. The only potential problem is the arrow rest, but when you realize you're just shifting the angle at which it rests from the bottom of the notch to the side, it all works out.

Well, you could do it, but you would be limited in your draw. When you draw a bow held horizontally, you are limited in how far you can draw it by the length of your arm because the string hits your torso. When held vertically, you can get a longer draw because your torso does not interfere. And losing that last fraction of your draw limits the power you can get from a bow.

So you could do it in-game, but I'd still feel that a penalty to hit (for the unfamiliar geometry) and definitely to damage (for the loss in draw) would be in order.

[jindra34]

Why wouldn't a longbow work well that way? The string and limbs don't care what orientation you have; mechanically, the body is perfectly capable of drawing a bow that is nearly horizontal, and it does not appear to affect accuracy significantly. The only potential problem is the arrow rest, but when you realize you're just shifting the angle at which it rests from the bottom of the notch to the side, it all works out.

You lose about a foot of draw when you do it like that. Which on smaller bows which rely on a longer draw is not a big deal. On larger bows where you can sometimes only get two and a half feet of draw? That makes a big difference.

EDIT: Also for historical reference, DnD really messed up Greatbows. Given that the term best applies to the Mongolian bows of 8-9' in string length. Which were primarily used on horseback, which DnD disallows. Admittedly they weren't terribly more powerful than the English longbows, but that may in part be do to not having anyone strong enough to need/be able to use a more powerful bow.

[TuggyNE]

Well, you could do it, but you would be limited in your draw. When you draw a bow held horizontally, you are limited in how far you can draw it by the length of your arm because the string hits your torso. When held vertically, you can get a longer draw because your torso does not interfere. And losing that last fraction of your draw limits the power you can get from a bow.

So you could do it in-game, but I'd still feel that a penalty to hit (for the unfamiliar geometry) and definitely to damage (for the loss in draw) would be in order.

Hmm, fair enough.

[Cirrylius]

A longbow is merely a bow that's roughly as tall as its user. A 6 foot
Bow could easily be fire from kneeling with only three feet and an inch of clearance between hand and ground.

It would restrict you to firing at distant targets, though.

[jindra34]

It would restrict you to firing at distant targets, though.

You aim down to hit nearby targets?
Note that you only need half the string length of down clearance to draw a bow straight. And about a third to fire level if you draw from an angle and then lower to aim.

[Unusual Muse]

EDIT: Also for historical reference, DnD really messed up Greatbows. Given that the term best applies to the Mongolian bows of 8-9' in string length. Which were primarily used on horseback, which DnD disallows. Admittedly they weren't terribly more powerful than the English longbows, but that may in part be do to not having anyone strong enough to need/be able to use a more powerful bow.

The same way they messed up "longswords" (which are historically arming swords) and "bastard swords" (which are historically longswords).

[Flickerdart]

You lose about a foot of draw when you do it like that. Which on smaller bows which rely on a longer draw is not a big deal. On larger bows where you can sometimes only get two and a half feet of draw? That makes a big difference.
Wouldn't it be the other way around, then? If a bow requires a long draw to be effective, then holding it horizontally means the string hits your body and you can only get so much draw, but if you only need two and a half feet, then it doesn't reach your body and all is well?

[jindra34]

Wouldn't it be the other way around, then? If a bow requires a long draw to be effective, then holding it horizontally means the string hits your body and you can only get so much draw, but if you only need two and a half feet, then it doesn't reach your body and all is well?

Draw is how far back you pull the string. Meaning that for a bow with a 2ft draw the string starts closer to your body than a bow with a 4 ft draw. And as bows use roughly the same arc of curvature, shorter bows will give you a longer (potential) draw do to simply being smaller.

[Flickerdart]

Draw is how far back you pull the string. Meaning that for a bow with a 2ft draw the string starts closer to your body than a bow with a 4 ft draw. And as bows use roughly the same arc of curvature, shorter bows will give you a longer (potential) draw do to simply being smaller.
Oh, I see - I was under the impression that the bowstring started more or less in the same place, and longer bows just didn't need to have it pulled back as far.

[ericgrau]

I think all this discussuion is still missing the part where you don't need to tilt a bow that's less than 7 feet long, and even if you did it wouldn't be horizontal it would be at a small angle. I doubt you ever need to fire a bow sideways while kneeling no matter which version of the longbow you use.

[LTwerewolf]

The amount people don't know about firing a bow is startling. In order to properly aim a bow, you need to not only use your arms, but your hips as well. This is due to a few different factors. First is the ease in arcing the shot. This is very difficult if not impossible to do well with your bow turned sideways.

Another important note is that in order to pull the string from a 120 lb. draw (some longbows got up to 160 lb. draw) is that in order to fire it over and over without fatiguing extremely quickly is that you're using not just your arms but every muscle in your back and your legs. Using just your arms is a recipe for disaster.

I think everyone needs to go out and pull the string of a real bow (not a composite), and see for themselves that the cinematic shots you see are just that- only seen in cinema.


Edit: Much like firing a pistol, firing a bow sideways is much like firing a pistol sideways. You may look "gangsta" but you're not ever going to hit anything you intend to.

[ericgrau]

Another important note is that in order to pull the string from a 120 lb. draw (some longbows got up to 160 lb. draw) is that in order to fire it over and over without fatiguing extremely quickly is that you're using not just your arms but every muscle in your back and your legs. Using just your arms is a recipe for disaster.
Which is why Mongolians never shot bows from horseback? :smallconfused:

[LTwerewolf]

Which is why Mongolians never shot bows from horseback? :smallconfused:

Which is why Mongolians used shortbows, with generally half that in draw poundage. Let's not pretend a longbow and a shortbow are the same thing. Firing from horseback is also an entirely new mechanic altogether. You're still using your back muscles as well, and if you see proper depictions of mongolian archer, they're also firing with their bows straight up.

[jindra34]

Which is why Mongolians never shot bows from horseback? :smallconfused:

Agreed, back yes. Legs, other than just keeping them steady, no. Which makes some degree of sense considering that archery, unlike melee martial schools, teaches you to use lock down most of your body when doing so. And yes I have used a standard longbow.

EDIT: LTwolf, Mongolians used some of the largest bows known to be used, and yes they did use them from horseback.

[Flickerdart]

Another important note is that in order to pull the string from a 120 lb. draw (some longbows got up to 160 lb. draw) is that in order to fire it over and over without fatiguing extremely quickly is that you're using not just your arms but every muscle in your back and your legs. Using just your arms is a recipe for disaster.
Pretty sure that's not going to be a problem for a character that can shrug off an axe to the face.

[LTwerewolf]

Agreed, back yes. Legs, other than just keeping them steady, no. Which makes some degree of sense considering that archery, unlike melee martial schools, teaches you to use lock down most of your body when doing so. And yes I have used a standard longbow.

EDIT: LTwolf, Mongolians used some of the largest bows known to be used, and yes they did use them from horseback.

Their height unstrung was around 5 feet, the tallest being no larger than 5 feet 2 inches. A long bow being more than a foot larger than that when strung. This is a significant difference.



Pretty sure that's not going to be a problem for a character that can shrug off an axe to the face.

In the game yes, but in real life (oh look, a catgirl just died) neither is likely to happen.

[Shining Wrath]

The amount people don't know about firing a bow is startling. In order to properly aim a bow, you need to not only use your arms, but your hips as well. This is due to a few different factors. First is the ease in arcing the shot. This is very difficult if not impossible to do well with your bow turned sideways.

Another important note is that in order to pull the string from a 120 lb. draw (some longbows got up to 160 lb. draw) is that in order to fire it over and over without fatiguing extremely quickly is that you're using not just your arms but every muscle in your back and your legs. Using just your arms is a recipe for disaster.

I think everyone needs to go out and pull the string of a real bow (not a composite), and see for themselves that the cinematic shots you see are just that- only seen in cinema.


Edit: Much like firing a pistol, firing a bow sideways is much like firing a pistol sideways. You may look "gangsta" but you're not ever going to hit anything you intend to.

The game is not real, though. It's more like fantasy novels than it is like our real lives.

[LTwerewolf]

But he did ask both IRL and RAW. I gave the IRL perspective.

[Guizonde]

my bow is 5'11, i'm 5'10 (in other words, i think my testimony fits the idea of scale). i've shot it so far in the normal position (easy stuff), at an angle (still easy), "bosmer style" (think skyrim when sneaking with a bow), lying down (using my body and pulling), "gangsta style" (like a crossbow), and truth be told, any deviation from standard position will hamper your draw, your power, your distance, your accuracy, or all of the above.

that's not to say it can't be done. that's silly. however, it's not recommended for optimum performance.

i've also shot with 2, 3, and 4 arrows nocked. two arrows is manageable at less than 20 yards before it goes to pieces. anything more and you won't resist yelling "primitive shotgun". still, really fun at point blank :smallbiggrin:

(next is trying flaming arrows, but something tells me that's both stupid and potentially hazardous...) :smallannoyed:

edit: i use a recurve bow regularly, but i've also access to a 5'8 "self" longbow, although i haven't tried lying down with that one.

[Seharvepernfan]

This seems like the perfect thread to bring this (http://9gag.com/gag/5950619) up.

So, no consensus on whether or not it's an action to stand up from kneeling?