Warforged Tank Class?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Are there any good classes that work for a Warforged that fufill the following?

Necessary

HD12
Full BAB
Heavy Armor Proficiency
Shield Proficiency (All except Tower needed)

Optional

High Ref or Will Saving Throws
More than 2 + Int Mod skill points per level


+This may not be class related but is there a way to move 30ft per turn even in heavy armor?

Edit: Looking over the Juggernaut I noticed it relies rather heavily on charging and bull rushes, and I do have to ask in that regard. Are charges and bull rushes that useful? Or am I better off just acting like a typical wall and soaking damage? Possibly house ruling out the charging mechanic for something else?

[Person_Man]

The only d12 hit die base classes I can think of are Warblade and Barbarian.

[Urpriest]

There are only four base classes with d12 HD: Warblade, Crusader, Barbarian, and Knight. Of those, Crusader and Knight have heavy armor proficiency and all sheilds (except tower), and of those two only Crusader has more than two skill points per level. Crusaders don't have good Ref or Will, but they do get to add their Charisma bonus to will.

Edit: Nevermind, Crusaders get d10. What is important about d12 in this calculation? Or about getting all this from one class?

[Tokuhara]

Within your parameters, Knight (http://dndtools.eu/classes/knight/) is the closest thing to your goal. However, Knight (unless you are REALLY careful) has Balls of Fail.

What you should take (in my humble opinion) is the Crusader (http://dndtools.eu/classes/crusader/), the measuring stick of "Tank"-y classes. Steely Resolve is a sweet ability.

[Amphetryon]

What you should take (in my humble opinion) is the Crusader (http://dndtools.eu/classes/crusader/), the measuring stick of "Tank"-y classes. Steely Resolve is a sweet ability.

This. A Feat or two for some Diamond Mind, plus CHA to Will, and you'll have all good saves, anyway.

[Gwazi Magnum]

The Hit die is for maximum health which I consider important for a tank.

But I can drop this requirement if another class has a tank feature more valuable than a hd12.

Also, I plan to use warforged adamate armor, I assume this still requires heavy armor proficency but I might as well double check. Do I need the proficiency?

[Tokuhara]

The Hit die is for maximum health which I consider important for a tank.

But I can drop this requirement if another class has a tank feature more valuable than a hd12.

Also, I plan to use warforged adamate armor, I assume this still requires heavy armor proficency but I might as well double check. Do I need the proficiency?

If I'm remembering correctly, no. I could be wrong, but remember that your composite plating precludes you from enchanting armor (minus shield).

And Crusader's Steely Resolve turns the stated amount of damage (5 at 1, 30 at 20) into nonlethal. Very nice for damage sponging.

[Artillery]

Yeah the classes good for tanking don't have a D12. The classes that synergize well with tanking need wisdom and charisma. Good tanking requires the ability to heal yourself somehow or be hit less. If you went something that was Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator you could be a beast of a tank who can cast in heavy armor. Get some wand chambers in your arms and you are good to go. But Warforged does mean -2 to both cha and wis.

If you are doing Admantine body you do need heavy armor proficency.

Steely resolve isn't non-lethal damage. It is a delayed damage pool that gives you bonuses to hit and damage.

[Tokuhara]

Yeah the classes good for tanking don't have a D12. The classes that synergize well with tanking need wisdom and charisma. Good tanking requires the ability to heal yourself somehow or be hit less. If you went something that was Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator you could be a beast of a tank who can cast in heavy armor. Get some wand chambers in your arms and you are good to go. But Warforged does mean -2 to both cha and wis.

If you are doing Admantine body you do need heavy armor proficency.

Steely resolve isn't non-lethal damage. It is a delayed damage pool that gives you bonuses to hit and damage.

Well, the big advantage to the Warforged for a Ruby Knight Windicator is the immunities. You has them. Lots of them. The other is that with the Artifice domain, you can mend/make whole yourself and laugh at the pathetic meatbag hitting you.

My bad. Still awesome as a "You didn't hurt me" ability

[nyarlathotep]

If I'm remembering correctly, no. I could be wrong, but remember that your composite plating precludes you from enchanting armor (minus shield).


That's not true. Warforged are explicitly allowed to enchant their plating or bodies as though they were armor.

[Tokuhara]

That's not true. Warforged are explicitly allowed to enchant their plating or bodies as though they were armor.

Well. Shave my back and call me beautiful. As I had said, "I could be wrong." Turns out I was.

[Artillery]

Well, the big advantage to the Warforged for a Ruby Knight Windicator is the immunities. You has them. Lots of them. The other is that with the Artifice domain, you can mend/make whole yourself and laugh at the pathetic meatbag hitting you.

My bad. Still awesome as a "You didn't hurt me" ability

To get the really good immunities you need to do Warforged Juggernaut though.

Which is D12 HD, good Fort. You lose the ability to heal from heal spells, but Crusader stuff will still heal you just fine. You would also be immune to non-lethal, mind-affecting spells, immunity death and necromancy effects, and immunity to ability dmg. All of those are nice for a tank.

So Crusader 5/Warforged Juggernaut 5/Crusader 10 would be the best for tanking. Get a Ring of Evasion, they work in heavy armor. Crusader has Mettle at lvl 13 which is like evasion for fort and will saves. Crusader1/Paladin2/Crusaderx is also good if you have a decent Cha.

Being able to say ignore any effect if you make the save is great.

[Arcanist]

I remember hearing somewhere that a Warforged Cleric can spontaneously cast repair spells instead of cure spells... might be wishful thinking though.

If this option DOES exist I'd recommend Crusader1/ Warblade1 (just to add more options to your list) / Cleric3 / Vindicator10 / Juggernaut5 You sure as hell ain't getting 9th level spells, but you are 10 times the Tank then any other PC at the table O_O

[Gwazi Magnum]

The Crusader does look nice, but I was also looking at warforged Paladin.

I like the look of that class for it's ability to self-heal, the buff on will saves etc.
Would this class also be a good choice? Or would Crusader still be better?

Note: I plan to be Diplomatic, which I am aware a Warforged Paladin (Diplomacy Cross-class), and Juggernaut goes against.

However, my Paladin will be unable to cast spells due to a rule this specific campaign is putting in, so there are no spells per day going on for the players. And while Cleric, Druid, Wizard and Sorcerer are outright banned, the classes Paladin, Ranger and Bard are still open, but lose their spell for days in exchange for other benefits up to the DM and Player negotiation.

I'm considering one of the bonuses to be Diplomacy for a class skill. And then I'll simply spend 2500gp using the DMG's custom magic item guide to make an item of Diplomacy +5 to counteract the Juggernauts penalty, does this sound like a good idea?

[Malroth]

Psionic warrior with share pain effectively gets D16's for HP once they get a psicrystal and share pain to shunt half their damage to the invincible rock in their pocket.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Actually, looking at the Warforged Paladin, there isn't much beyond lv.3 that's worthwhile. So I would have Paladin Lv.3/_______ Lv.2/Juggernaut Lv.3 (Starting at lv.8) to start with. Should the Lv.2 still be Crusader or would the Paladin take away most of it's perks?


Psionic warrior with share pain effectively gets D16's for HP once they get a psicrystal and share pain to shunt half their damage to the invincible rock in their pocket.

How so exactly?

[A_S]

Crusader is almost certainly a better choice (mechanically at least) than paladin. Bear in mind that there's a whole host of Devoted Spirit maneuvers specifically dedicated to providing you and your allies with healing, without having to give up actions for things that aren't attacks. And crusaders get diplomacy as a class skill.

[Tokuhara]

Actually, looking at the Warforged Paladin, there isn't much beyond lv.3 that's worthwhile. So I would have Paladin Lv.3/_______ Lv.2/Juggernaut Lv.3 (Starting at lv.8) to start with. Should the Lv.2 still be Crusader or would the Paladin take away most of it's perks?

I actually suggest Paladin 2/Crusader 5/Juggernaut 3, because of maneuvers. You want them. A lot.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I actually suggest Paladin 2/Crusader 5/Juggernaut 3, because of maneuvers. You want them. A lot.

Starting at lv.8 though.

I relooked at it though and the Paladin Levels attractions were these...

Lv.2: Con Mod to Will & Heal Con Mod * Paladin level per day
Lv.3: Stun Immunity

But then it came to me...

1. Crusader all has the will feature
2. 3 levels of Paladin = 15 HP healed per day, not so much
3. Stun Immunity seems minor (Correct me if I'm wrong)

So I am probably going to go Crusader 5/Juggernaut 3 to start. Take Juggernaut up to 5 and then invest the rest into Crusader.

[Gwazi Magnum]

bump

I edited the first post to add a question regarding charges and bull rushes too.

[Amphetryon]

The trouble with being a wall is that folks can go around you. D&D 3.5 heavily rewards proactive behavior, such as Charge and Bull Rush, and generally does a poor job with reactive behavior, such as trying to be a damage soak.

[A_S]

Charging is great; bull rushing is bad unless you're a Dungeoncrasher fighter. And, while what Amph says is true, Crusader is probably the closest 3.5 gets to a viable true "tank" class (via area control and Iron Guard's Glare). It stops working so well at higher levels, but it's effective early on. After that, you just have to hit things really hard like everybody else.

[Gwazi Magnum]

When I say Tank I don't really mean purposely soak damage for the party.

I just plan to be taking advantage of the charge feature, but not necessarily bull rush. But I want my survivability to also be high so he can afford to charge into the thick of combat and live.

[Panzerbjorn]

You don't nessisarily need D12 hp to tank. As a warforged you can take the feat Thick skinned from Savage Species. If you took the feat at lvl 1 that gives you ada composite plating then you start out with dr/- and dr/ada. thick skinned increases you dr by 2. If i understand it right that means both of your dr increase by 2, not just one.

[Lans]

Warforged fighter levels might be an option.

[Arcanist]

Warforged fighter levels might be an option.

WELL if he is going to take Dungeoncrasher then it would only be 2 levels of Fighter where if he is going to take the Warforged racial sub then I suppose it'll be alright, but you'll be feat starved for getting into Juggernaut at 6th level. (assuming you take Adamantine Plating at 1st, Power Attack at 3rd and Improved Bull Rush at 6th).

[Psyren]

How so exactly?

Share Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePain.htm) divides incoming damage in half, and half will go to your psicrystal. From there, your DM has to determine whether the psicrystal's hardness 8 applies to that damage. Even if it doesn't, or you take more than 8 HP of damage, healing your psicrystal is as economical as healing yourself, because you can share vigor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm) or psionic repair damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRepairDamage.htm) with it at no extra cost.

[Rubik]

Share Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePain.htm) divides incoming damage in half, and half will go to your psicrystal. From there, your DM has to determine whether the psicrystal's hardness 8 applies to that damage. Even if it doesn't, or you take more than 8 HP of damage, healing your psicrystal is as economical as healing yourself, because you can share vigor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm) or psionic repair damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRepairDamage.htm) with it at no extra cost.RAW, hardness applies to all forms of damage, which includes Share Pain. Note that with the psicrystal/Vigor/Share Pain combo, you'll be wracking up the equivalent of 200 temp hp for one full manifestation of Vigor at level 20 (or more, if you've got manifester level boosters, such as Overchannel and an orange ioun stone, which can net you the equivalent of 240 thp).

[vageta31]

Remember that Warforged can't heal themselves normally with positive energy, so I'm guessing that's a bit of a negative for a Paladin. Crusader maneuvers and stances heal with a morale bonus so they don't take the penalty. I have a low level Warforged Crusader with Adamantine Body and not much has been able to really hurt me yet. I can keep myself healed for the most part with just my own stances and maneuvers with some spare healing for party members.

Crusader is honestly the ultimate tank due to maneuvers and the temporary damage pool which can allow you to heal some of it before it even kicks in. With Adamantine body you get DR/2 which helps even more at low levels though it doesn't scale well.

[panaikhan]

Knight has a couple of nice pieces going for it.
You can draw threat from some opponents (via a will save).
Threatened squares become difficult terrain (great with reach).
Later on, they are not slowed by their armour.
Warforged Adamantine plating has a DR (which you can improve with feats).

So, you can make people attack you, gain AOO if they try to move past you or to you (which costs them more movement) and shrug off a little of that damage if they finally get to hit.

[jywu98]

Crusader is probably your best bet for a "tanky" class. While they can't draw aggro like the Knight, they can lock down targets and prevent them from getting near the squishies.

[Rubik]

Remember that Warforged can't heal themselves normally with positive energy,This is incorrect. As a clarification, they receive HALF healing from [healing] spells and Supernatural abilities. They heal up perfectly well otherwise. Other forms of positive energy and other healing effects work just fine.


Crusader maneuvers and stances heal with a morale bonus so they don't take the penalty.Morale bonus? What?

(Also, I find your forum handle disturbing.)


Crusader is probably your best bet for a "tanky" class. While they can't draw aggro like the Knight, they can lock down targets and prevent them from getting near the squishies.Note that the Tome of Battle classes multiclass REALLY well. Just pointing that out.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ok, after reading over the advice and re-looking at the classes I'm thinking I'm going start like this for my level 8 character.

Barbarian 1/Crusader 4/Juggernaut 3

Barbarian 1 with the Lion Totem so he has pounce.
So when my character charges (which he does well with Juggernaut)
He can use full attack.

[Psyren]

Remember that Warforged can't heal themselves normally with positive energy, so I'm guessing that's a bit of a negative for a Paladin.

Warforged Paladin has substitution levels that remove this penalty IIRC

[Karnith]

Warforged Paladin has substitution levels that remove this penalty IIRC
You do recall correctly; Races of Eberron has the Warforged Paladin substitution levels, which at second level grants repair damage instead of lay on hands. Repair damage functions much like lay on hands, but specifically restores HP to constructs. It can also be used to deal damage to living creatures.

[Shining Wrath]

The only d12 hit die base classes I can think of are Warblade and Barbarian.

Knight, from PHBII. Which you wrote the handbook for. :smallsmile:

D12 + full BAB + heavy armor - the only one.

[Shining Wrath]

The Hit die is for maximum health which I consider important for a tank.

But I can drop this requirement if another class has a tank feature more valuable than a hd12.

Also, I plan to use warforged adamate armor, I assume this still requires heavy armor proficency but I might as well double check. Do I need the proficiency?

Warforged cannot wear armor, at all. Their plates serve that purpose. Oddly, they can't wear robes either. :smallfrown:

For a Warforged tank, you'll want the L1 feat for Admantite body, plus rings of protections / amulets of natural armor.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Warforged cannot wear armor, at all. Their plates serve that purpose. Oddly, they can't wear robes either. :smallfrown:

For a Warforged tank, you'll want the L1 feat for Admantite body, plus rings of protections / amulets of natural armor.

But would the Admantite body still need the proficiency in order to avoid the penalties?

[Karnith]

But would the Admantite body still need the proficiency in order to avoid the penalties?
Adamantine Body does not require armor proficiency; while your warforged character's body functions much as heavy armor does, it is not actually armor (and is a part of your character), and hence no proficiency is required.

[Rubik]

Adamantine Body does not require armor proficiency; while your warforged character's body functions much as heavy armor does, it is not actually armor (and is a part of your character), and hence no proficiency is required.However, it does apply a max Dex penalty and arcane spell failure.

The more you know!

*Star*

[Psyren]

However, it does apply a max Dex penalty and arcane spell failure.

The more you know!

*Star*

Don't forget the speed penalty

[Arcanist]

Don't forget the speed penalty

I'm pretty confident that Star is moving at the speed of light so it can't be much...

[vageta31]

This is incorrect. As a clarification, they receive HALF healing from [healing] spells and Supernatural abilities. They heal up perfectly well otherwise. Other forms of positive energy and other healing effects work just fine.

Morale bonus? What?

(Also, I find your forum handle disturbing.)

Note that the Tome of Battle classes multiclass REALLY well. Just pointing that out.

What is disturbing about a Dragonball character? Perhaps someone else's mind is in the wrong place. Maybe morale "bonus" isn't the correct term, but a Crusader's healing is not considered positive energy but more of a morale type. I thought this was common knowledge on this board.

You're correct about the positive energy, it is half, but either way it's very inefficient and it can be argued that by RAW lessor vigor doesn't work at all due to rounding down.

[Rubik]

What is disturbing about a Dragonball character? Perhaps someone else's mind is in the wrong place.His name's "Vegeta," so you know. Don't Google the first three letters of your name to see what comes up. I'm pretty sure it's NSFW. :smallwink:

Anyway.


Maybe morale "bonus" isn't the correct term, but a Crusader's healing is not considered positive energy but more of a morale type. I thought this was common knowledge on this board.Well, yes, but you can't really have "bonus types" to healing effects; it could get confusing for n00bs, y'know.


You're correct about the positive energy, it is half, but either way it's very inefficient and it can be argued that by RAW lessor vigor doesn't work at all due to rounding down.Well, it's not direct healing; it grants an ability (fast healing) rather than actually healing you.

If the DM actually demanded that it only be half as effective, I'd imagine the duration would be halved, or it only granted fast healing 1/2 (as in, one hp gained every 2 rounds).

[Shining Wrath]

Adamantine Body does not require armor proficiency; while your warforged character's body functions much as heavy armor does, it is not actually armor (and is a part of your character), and hence no proficiency is required.

Furthermore, it doesn't count against your weight carried limitations. One of the good things about the Warforged; a STR-based class not wearing any armor has basically unlimited carrying capacity.

[Shining Wrath]

However, it does apply a max Dex penalty and arcane spell failure.

The more you know!

*Star*

If you are willing to spend the money, once the adamantine body is enchanted (a very likely choice) you can add Nimble (AFB but I think that's the name) for +1 and get something like +1 Dex bonus and a reduction of 2 in the armor check. And I think it will stack with itself. I'm not sure if it helps with arcane failure.

[Gwazi Magnum]

So no armor proficiency is needed? Sweet.

So my current plan with this Warforged is...

1. Charge into the enemy, using pounce to have full attack
2. Inflict non-lethal damage (Mercy weapon)
-This can allow for lots of hostages, prisoners, slaves etc depending on the direction the group goes
3. Be tough enough that he can afford to charge ahead like that and survive.
(Combination of DR, Critical Hit Immunity, High HP, Temp HP, High AC etc.)\
4. Diplomatic so my group still has a group face
(Diplomacy = Class Skill from Crusader, -5 penalty from Juggernaut negated by custom Ring of Diplomacy +5 for 2500 gp from the DMG custom magic items table)

Is this a good concept for a character to have?
Any advice that can be given to make him better at his job?

[Amphetryon]

You may wish to invest in Steadfast Determination (Feat from PhB2) so your Will save is keyed off CON and you won't autofail the save; groups that love having a Chargemonkey/Beatstick that's hard to take down become very sad when said Chargemonkey/Beatstick gets Dominated and starts playing Whack-a-Mole with other party members.

[Gwazi Magnum]

You may wish to invest in Steadfast Determination (Feat from PhB2) so your Will save is keyed off CON and you won't autofail the save; groups that love having a Chargemonkey/Beatstick that's hard to take down become very sad when said Chargemonkey/Beatstick gets Dominated and starts playing Whack-a-Mole with other party members.

Already thought of that, and one of Crusaders abilities already does that.