The OOTS Needs a New Healer

[presentdent]

(I apologize if this has been discussed. I'm new and I couldn't find the Search button... >.>)

Hi there, folks! Long time listener, first time caller and all that jazz. I felt that an occasion as momentous as this meant I should finally register, and I was hoping to engage in some theorizing about the future of the OOTS.

Assuming that our steadfast little order of misfits manages to survive this adventure (which I am, in fact, assuming) they will need to find a new healer. After all, our erstwhile defender of Thor's flock, Durkon, has gone to the realm of undead thralldom and will likely remain so until the end of the adventure when Malack can release him to be an independent, blood-sucking monster. So, who will become the healer? Of course, I understand that the Giant could simply introduce a new character to replace Durkon (perhaps also a Dwarf and named Shmurkon and actually Durkon's twin brother who subsequently asks The Gang to call him Durkon in memory of his brother a la Beerfest).

But I hope this isn't the case. I see here the opportunity for yet more dual-classing! Of course, Belkar is already a Barbarian/Ranger and lacks the wisdom necessary to be a cleric of any use. So, what will happen? Will Roy turn his intelligence/wisdom towards Cleric-ing? Will Elan become a Druid of some kind? Will Vaarsuvius continue to learn more and more powers? What do you guys think? (I doubt any of them will become Paladins after their last run-in with their ilk).

[Loki_42]

Well, clearly it's time to dust off a certain puppet...

[Pigkappa]

Without an high level cleric, they're in great trouble. A few cleric levels to Roy or Elan aren't going to do it. Possible solutions:

- Durkon eventually joins the party again. I don't know if as undead or not.
- V learns some weird Necromancy magic that heals.
- O'Chul joins the party.

I think the first option is the most likely. The party has already suffered many negative events and came back to be the same (after, well, hundreds of comics). A member of the party becoming a vampire isn't much more complicated than the mess they had when Roy was a golem.

[mawexzon]

From SoD, we know that Durkon will return to the Dwarven Lands with Death and Destruction at his path which means that this isn't the last of what we will see of him, and Malack has not reason to go there with Durkon, so that means that probably Durkon will re-join the Order after Malack frees him from his control.

[presentdent]

However, Durkon could no longer serve as the party's healer, unless I'm not understanding the rules of undead and healing correctly. As far as I know, "Heal" harms the Undead and "Harm" heals the Undead. How is Durkon (now undead) supposed to Heal the Living members of the party when doing so is burning off his fingers in the process?

[The Pilgrim]

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They will have to rely on Elan and potions to cover until they rescue Durkon and raise him.


However, Durkon could no longer serve as the party's healer, unless I'm not understanding the rules of undead and healing correctly. As far as I know, "Heal" harms the Undead and "Harm" heals the Undead. How is Durkon (now undead) supposed to Heal the Living members of the party when doing so is burning off his fingers in the process?

Same way as Malack healed Elan back in #718 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0718.html)

[mawexzon]

However, Durkon could no longer serve as the party's healer, unless I'm not understanding the rules of undead and healing correctly. As far as I know, "Heal" harms the Undead and "Harm" heals the Undead. How is Durkon (now undead) supposed to Heal the Living members of the party when doing so is burning off his fingers in the process?
He would not be harmed unless he targets himself with healing spells, which is highly unlikely, similarly, a living cleric could use Harm and not damage himself unless he targets himself.

[Kish]

However, Durkon could no longer serve as the party's healer, unless I'm not understanding the rules of undead and healing correctly. As far as I know, "Heal" harms the Undead and "Harm" heals the Undead. How is Durkon (now undead) supposed to Heal the Living members of the party when doing so is burning off his fingers in the process?
How does Vaarsuvius cast lightning spells when Samantha's lightning hurt him/her?

You see the problem with the premise?

[Loki_42]

Of course, assuming forced alignment change from Undead, Durkon is a lot worse of a healer now, given how he can no longer spontaneously cast heal spells.

[mawexzon]

He still can use Healing spells, just not in the same scale, still, a Vampire cleric who can both damage and cure is always a strong addition to a team, in fact, with all the bonuses he gets from being a Vampire, one can argue that it still ends up as more powerful than regular Durkon, even without spontaneous heals.

[Dr.Epic]

I nominate Squiddley Doodle Fluffer!

[Psyren]

I for one wouldn't mind if Hilgya showed up again. She should be on par with Durkon level-wise, and she wasn't really evil. If Belkar dies, the Order will need a new source of internal conflict anyway.

[mcl01]

I'm actually quite fond of the idea of vampire Durkon returning to his senses after he no longer is Malack's thrall. I think Rich has demonstrated his skill time and time again as a writer who can write amazingly deep and complex characters. I think he could easily return to the party as a good-aligned vampire cleric.

[Agnostik]

- O'Chul joins the party.
Considering that O'Chul doesn't have a particularly high Charisma score (he confessed to that after failing to bluff Redcloak) and the fact that he'd been a fighter for quite a long time before he became a paladin, I don't think he has any real value as a healer. Even Elan would probably be better at that, because his spellcasting attribute is pretty much maxxed.

[martianmister]

Malack is ideal for the job. This way, they can be together for the rest of their life. :smallamused:

[white lancer]

I for one wouldn't mind if Hilgya showed up again. She should be on par with Durkon level-wise, and she wasn't really evil.

I think trying to murder her husband was pretty evil. :P

My first thought was a paladin of some sort, but I'm not sure which one would fit the bill. As cool as it would be to have Hinjo join the party, he's got duties to his people, and O-Chul hasn't been shown as much of the healing type (though joining the party would give him the opportunity to interact with the MitD again...). Lien is just too minor of a character to consider as a real replacement to Durkon--it's going to be weird enough having a significant change in the Order after so many strips without a (lasting) one, so if there's a new member involved it'll probably have to be a major character. Celia is a possibility, although her whole extreme pacifism thing would be hard to reconcile with the rest of the party.

[137beth]

- V learns some weird Necromancy magic that heals.
Nope, necromancy is one of V's banned schools.

[Kish]

And the other one is Conjuration, the school with all the healing spells in it.

[Psyren]

I think trying to murder her husband was pretty evil. :P

That was pre-Cerebus, we can't take it totally at face value. Also, that comically oversized bottle of toxin probably didn't even give him a stomachache. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html)

[Longest Skies]

hmmm O-Chul unlikely but sounds badass...

[Steward]

That was pre-Cerebus, we can't take it totally at face value. Also, that comically oversized bottle of toxin probably didn't even give him a stomachache. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html)

To be fair, isn't that a major part of her backstory and the character clash between herself and Durkon? She hated having to live up to her filial obligations and her religious duties, to the point where she was willing to try to bump off her innocent husband. That was the reason she ran away and joined the Linear Guild, and why Durkon ended up breaking up with her and driving her away. If it's retconned out of existence, it kind of guts that entire subplot...

[Morty]

Here's a radical theory... maybe the Order will continue their mission without all traditional D&D party roles covered.

[Razanir]

Here's a radical theory... maybe the Order will continue their mission without all traditional D&D party roles covered.

Only in the short-term. I don't think Elan's enough of a healer for them to survive too long. Although maybe if he actually became a cleric of Banjo...

[SaintRidley]

I'm actually quite fond of the idea of vampire Durkon returning to his senses after he no longer is Malack's thrall. I think Rich has demonstrated his skill time and time again as a writer who can write amazingly deep and complex characters. I think he could easily return to the party as a good-aligned vampire cleric.

Yep. Not much else I see being narratively fulfilling.

[Roland Itiative]

Here's a radical theory... maybe the Order will continue their mission without all traditional D&D party roles covered.

It's not exactly about covering D&D party roles, but keeping the story consistent. Durkon, in his role as a healer, is probably the most important member of the Order. Without a capable healer, they won't be able to fight nearly as often as they do, and will probably suffer casualties whenever they fight a main antagonist.

The Order could lose a fighter, a rogue, maybe even a wizard, and still advance as a team. But the cleric? He needs a replacement.

[KillingAScarab]

My favorite of the options I have seen presented so far is that they find a wand of cure critical wounds and slap a beard on it. :)

You can give it to Elan, possibly Haley since she's capable of using a different 4th level cleric spell on a scroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html). However, I haven't looked into the difficulty of use magic device while you are in combat. I suppose there would be a concentration check, but how much worse can she be at concentrating than Elan?

[Giggling Ghast]

It's a pity they never transitioned to 4E, or else Elan could step into Durkon's shoes. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

The healing is really the most minor aspect of Durkon's duties. The enemies of the Order are very fond of level drain, as well as ability damage (from poisons or otherwise.)


To be fair, isn't that a major part of her backstory and the character clash between herself and Durkon? She hated having to live up to her filial obligations and her religious duties, to the point where she was willing to try to bump off her innocent husband. That was the reason she ran away and joined the Linear Guild, and why Durkon ended up breaking up with her and driving her away. If it's retconned out of existence, it kind of guts that entire subplot...

The "run away" part is important, because that's the part that Durkon took issue with (being uncharacteristic of Dwarfdom.) The murder part I view as being more of a gag, especially since Durkon didn't even mention it among his objections.


Yep. Not much else I see being narratively fulfilling.

Durkon gaining free will at some point is a given. But when, and whether he will rejoin the Order, or whether he will (a) embrace his new calling or (b) die off for real soon after gaining lucidity - all that is up in the air.

[nonamearisto]

Elan has shown some healing ability that he acquired off-panel. While he's not as good as Durkon, he might be able to do well enough for now. And he can neutralize poison. :smallwink:

[Chilingsworth]

For those who propose Elan taking cleric levels... hasn't it be conclusively proven that he would make a terrible, terrible cleric, you know with his craptastic wisdom?

[rodneyAnonymous]

I'm not sure O-Chul can cast spells at all.

[librisrouge]

I kinda don't picture 'ol shortie being saved this time sadly. The way I see it, isn't there another Gate after this one? Isn't there a good chance it'll be in the dwarven lands? Elan's Dad seem highly interested in these gates and will probably be willing to go after the next one himself should this one go all ploined shaped on them (and it likely will.) Once in the Dwarven Lands, Durkon can, after taking his recent dip into the deep end of the alignment pool, get revenge on those that exiled him unjustly. That would certainly explain the prophecy given earlier in the story.

Of course, we could see some kinda divine intervention get involved. Ten bucks says the last gate is related to Thor in some way.

[SowZ]

The healing is really the most minor aspect of Durkon's duties. The enemies of the Order are very fond of level drain, as well as ability damage (from poisons or otherwise.)



The "run away" part is important, because that's the part that Durkon took issue with (being uncharacteristic of Dwarfdom.) The murder part I view as being more of a gag, especially since Durkon didn't even mention it among his objections.



Durkon gaining free will at some point is a given. But when, and whether he will rejoin the Order, or whether he will (a) embrace his new calling or (b) die off for real soon after gaining lucidity - all that is up in the air.

Repeated first degree murder attempts on your husband, following an obviously evil leader, participating in the murder of gate guardians, worshipping an evil god, etc. etc. Why does this not point towards evil? Because she's cute?


I'm not sure O-Chul can cast spells at all.

Seeing as he dumped Charisma, I doubt he had to totally dump wisdom. Even with 10 wisdom, a +4 Wisdom item or spell would allow him to cast anything on the Paladin list.

[Agnostik]

Elan doesn't need to take cleric levels to cover basic (well, very basic) healing: he's taken Mass CLW (which is admittedly rather weak) and said he will think about taking CCW in the future (#647 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)). If he did take CCW, something tells me he'll need it soon.

Now I wonder if that was foreshadowing.

[KillingAScarab]

The healing is really the most minor aspect of Durkon's duties. The enemies of the Order are very fond of level drain, as well as ability damage (from poisons or otherwise.)While I don't want to belittle Durkon's contributions, in my opinion healing is the most in demand of his abilities when it comes to combat. He doesn't counter-spell, though mass protection from acid was technically a counter to a spell. Holy word finally worked for the first time. Death ward and restoration are both 4th level cleric spells, and so can be found in wands; not ideal caster levels, but that's really the point of making due with who is left. The mass death ward spell has a vulnerability which I wouldn't trust with my life. On that note, I suspect Durkon could fix that, but the spell would then match the published version and become an 8th level spell.

On the subject of O-Chul, we don't know his wisdom score. He would be able to cast any paladin spell from a wand, but that seems far less easy to procure when you're currently in a dungeon which was created by paladin haters or the extreme northern reaches of the world. Hinjo, Lien and he might be able to craft some, but they do not seem to have access to the 4th level paladin spells. Those include cure serious wounds, death ward, restoration, neutralize poison, break enchantment and the best paladin spell of all, holy sword. It also seems unlikely that a paladin would willingly associate with Belkar. O-Chul, at least, doesn't seem to have a mount for him to threaten (yet).

[rodneyAnonymous]

...in my opinion healing is the most in demand of his abilities when it comes to combat.

Durkon cast buffs a lot. Very little healing during battle.

[Leolo]

For those who propose Elan taking cleric levels... hasn't it be conclusively proven that he would make a terrible, terrible cleric, you know with his craptastic wisdom?

Even if his wisdom would be higher: High Level Bards have better healing spells than a lvl 1 cleric. So taking a cleric level would actually make elan heal worse compared to taking a (higher) bard level.

Elan should be at least near to level 6 bard spells. Nothing a level 1 cleric can cast could compensate this.

[Psyren]

Repeated first degree murder attempts on your husband,

Already addressed this.


following an obviously evil leader,

So Therkla was evil too, right?


participating in the murder of gate guardians,

So Roy is evil too, right?


worshipping an evil god

One-step rule.


Why does this not point towards evil? Because she's cute?

No, because your evidence is flimsy at best.



Seeing as he dumped Charisma, I doubt he had to totally dump wisdom. Even with 10 wisdom, a +4 Wisdom item or spell would allow him to cast anything on the Paladin list.

+4 Wis allowed Belkar to cast spells too, that doesn't mean either of them can fill a caster role.

[SowZ]

Already addressed this.



So Therkla was evil too, right?



So Roy is evil too, right?



One-step rule.



No, because your evidence is flimsy at best.



+4 Wis allowed Belkar to cast spells too, that doesn't mean either of them can fill a caster role.

I don't think you really did address the murder attempts on her husband, not well, anyways. Serving an evil ruler or an evil god does not make you evil, no, but it definitely makes it more likely.

Therkla absolutely leaned evil, even if she wasn't evil. Had Therkla been willing to assassinate family who trusted her, yes, she would have been evil.

If Roy had knowingly murdered the gate guardians for selfish ends, yes, he would be evil.

My argument wasn't that he makes a good caster. It was that he is probably capable of casting all his spells.

[deworde]

For those who propose Elan taking cleric levels... hasn't it be conclusively proven that he would make a terrible, terrible cleric, you know with his craptastic wisdom?

I thought Elan's Wisdom was alright (he seems to generally make the right choice) it's just he's so dumb (INT) that it compromises his wisdom...

[Mike Havran]

I thought Elan's Wisdom was alright (he seems to generally make the right choice) it's just he's so dumb (INT) that it compromises his wisdom...

Elan doesn't have even a smidgen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html) of Wisdom.

[zimmerwald1915]

Seeing as he dumped Charisma, I doubt he had to totally dump wisdom. Even with 10 wisdom, a +4 Wisdom item or spell would allow him to cast anything on the Paladin list.
It might not be a matter of stats, but of levels. We know O-Chul is a multiclass fighter-paladin who joined the Sapphire Guard rather late in his career. We also know that Durkon at the Battle of Azure City, who at the time was somewhere around level 13, considered him "mid-level", which for purposes of this discussion I'd ballpark between ECL 7 and ECL 121. Of those levels, four have to be paladin levels before O-Chul can even think about having spell slots, and he only gets those if he has at least twelve Wisdom. He'd have to have six paladin levels before he could be assured of having spells. Personally, I'm not even sure O-Chul has more than one paladin level.

1The term "mid-level" can mean different things depending on who's speaking. For Lien (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html), Durkon and Vaarsuvius are considered "high-level" at level 13 or 14. For Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html), Vaarsuvius is still "mid-level" despite being level 14 or 15.

[deworde]

Elan doesn't have even a smidgen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html) of Wisdom.


Oh, wow. I'd forgotten that it was so long ago. Good reference, sir.

[Bravo]

Given that Kraagor's Gate is in the "far north in the tundra somewhere" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html) (i.e. the Dwarven Lands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html), where Kraagor the Dwarf himself would have been from and was certainly buried (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)), it seems practically 100% certain that Durkon will survive at least until the battle for the final gate.

(In other news, it seems highly likely that wherever Girard's Gate is, it's almost certain to be above surface level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html))

So unless Durkon joins the Linear Guild as a full member, there's no explanation for his travelling to the final gate that won't seem contrived, except if he stays with the OotS.

In addition, there's nothing to suggest that Belkar won't survive until the end of the quest - he was given a whole year after all, of which only a few months have passed.

However, that's not to say that the party couldn't make use of a Paladin. O-Chul would certainly be an interesting and level-appropriate party member, and his friendship with the MitD is a loose end that will inevitably need to be tied up.

Plus it'd be kind of a wasted opportunity if the Giant didn't make at least a FEW strips about the peculiarities of bringing a new member into the party and poking fun at the DnD mechanics thereof.

[zimmerwald1915]

Given that Kraagor's Gate is in the "far north in the tundra somewhere" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html) (i.e. the Dwarven Lands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html), where Kraagor the Dwarf himself would have been from and was certainly buried (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)), it seems practically 100% certain that Durkon will survive at least until the battle for the final gate.

In other news, it seems highly likely that wherever Girard's Gate is, it's almost certain to be above surface level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).
It's a desert. Surface level can change over time. It's even more apt to change over time when the person living over it is an epic-level spellcaster.

[Bravo]

I don't think you really did address the murder attempts on her husband, not well, anyways. Serving an evil ruler or an evil god does not make you evil, no, but it definitely makes it more likely.

Therkla absolutely leaned evil, even if she wasn't evil. Had Therkla been willing to assassinate family who trusted her, yes, she would have been evil.

If Roy had knowingly murdered the gate guardians for selfish ends, yes, he would be evil.

My argument wasn't that he makes a good caster. It was that he is probably capable of casting all his spells.

Hilgya could be considered Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral (I think we can all agree she's Chaotic, anyway, and she couldn't be exactly "Good" with the deeds you've listed). So given that the OotS are the "good guys" and yet have at least one Chaotic Evil member, I don't see why she couldn't join the OotS... in theory. In practice, she hasn't had enough face-time in the comic to warrant stardom. She's not that interesting a character. O-Chul at least has plenty of character development we're familiar with, has joking references to dump stats and the strangeness of his build just as if he were a PC, and he's already making his way towards the final gate.

[Kish]

I also don't really think it would be good for the Order, no pun intended, to go to having half its members be dark side of neutral at best. One token evil teammate is...a thing. If half the team is evil, or at least closer to evil than good, is it really a good party anymore?

[Psyren]

I don't think you really did address the murder attempts on her husband, not well, anyways.

Again, the poison was played for laughs (just like the "sprit-crushing" foot massages.) Now, the Giant can easily have Hilgya's backstory take a darker turn, but as it stands right now I don't take anything from that sequence too seriously. And Durkon didn't mention the poison either, he was only angry because she left her marriage behind; if the Giant had meant that to be taken seriously he would have had Durkon call it out directly.


Serving an evil ruler or an evil god does not make you evil, no, but it definitely makes it more likely.

Therkla absolutely leaned evil, even if she wasn't evil. Had Therkla been willing to assassinate family who trusted her, yes, she would have been evil.

If Roy had knowingly murdered the gate guardians for selfish ends, yes, he would be evil.

"If she was evil, then she'd be evil!" is a meaningless tautology, nothing more.


In practice, she hasn't had enough face-time in the comic to warrant stardom. She's not that interesting a character.

I disagree - her perspective could be enlightening in many ways. What does Loki think of the DO? Or the IFCC? Where did she go after the Redmountain explosion? Why didn't (or couldn't) Nale try to recruit her once more? Did she come to worship Loki before or after fleeing her clan? Did Durkon get her pregnant? Whether or not he did, what would she think of his becoming a vampire?

Perhaps she was meant to be a throwaway character, I wouldn't know. But I think there's a lot of potential that will be lost if she is.

[Kish]

And Durkon didn't mention the poison either, he was only angry because she left her marriage behind; if the Giant had meant that to be taken seriously he would have had Durkon call it out directly.
That would have made it a good vs. evil clash, not the lawful vs. chaotic clash Rich wanted.

Durkon presumably wasn't sharing the flashbacks with us, just listening to Hilgya's words. So he didn't know Ivan's horrible cruelty took the form of being pleased with his arranged marriage and trying his best to make Hilgya happy with it as well. He didn't make an issue of Hilgya attempting to poison a man he believed was horrible and cruel because, well, Durkon's killed a lot of horrible, cruel people in his life.

[KillingAScarab]

Given that Kraagor's Gate is in the "far north in the tundra somewhere" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html) (i.e. the Dwarven Lands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html), where Kraagor the Dwarf himself would have been from and was certainly buried (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html)), it seems practically 100% certain that Durkon will survive at least until the battle for the final gate.If I may derail this for a moment, it seems unlikely to me that Kraagor's gate is within Dwarven Lands. If the gate is within the tundra, then it is by definition in an area with frozen soil and no trees for the Dwarves to needlessly fear. Clearly, tree puns take precedence whenever The Giant's dwarves are concerned. Thus, the dwarves don't live deep in the tundra (though they might be near its edge).

[Cavenskull]

Again, the poison was played for laughs (just like the "sprit-crushing" foot massages.)
No, the fact that the poison in the sandwich was still in its bottle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0083.html) is the part that was played for laughs. That doesn't mean the poisoning attempt didn't happen. Besides, just because something is played for laughs doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate part of the story. Banjo the Clown--God of puppets (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html) seems like nearly the most extreme example possible of something played purely for laughs, yet almost 700 strips later, Elan still refers to Banjo as his god (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0771.html). Banjo even makes on-screen appearances in the next comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html) and the one after that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0773.html). In fact, Banjo even figured prominently in a major story arc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0553.html). If something as obviously silly as a clown hand-puppet being a god is still a recurring part of the story 700 strips/several years later, then I don't see how a poisoning incident can be written off just because it was played for laughs.



Now, the Giant can easily have Hilgya's backstory take a darker turn, but as it stands right now I don't take anything from that sequence too seriously. And Durkon didn't mention the poison either, he was only angry because she left her marriage behind; if the Giant had meant that to be taken seriously he would have had Durkon call it out directly.
Like Kish said, the Durkon wasn't privy to the details of the flashback. The flashbacks show the audience--not Durkon--the reality of Hilgya's "horrible" life.

Why didn't (or couldn't) Nale try to recruit her once more?
Because she didn't like Nale in the first place (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html). She was only there because her god commanded her to steal something that Haley ended up destroying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0059.html).

So Roy is evil too, right?
Ok, which gate guardian did Roy allegedly kill? Roy never met the gate guardian down his path because Thog killed her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) before Roy had a chance to catch up to him.

[skaddix]

O'Chul certainly seems like he has a high Wisdom score. Not to mention Hinjo saying that O'Chul has gained a few levels on him so even if O'Chul only had 1 level of Paladin a few implies 2-3 level pick up so a minimum of 3-4 Levels of Paladin from what I can guess.

Lien though can cast spells since she also got a few and had no respec from that we know of. I say healing is still going to be lacking though. Still one of the Paladins can certainly replace Belkar.

[Psyren]

He didn't make an issue of Hilgya attempting to poison a man he believed was horrible and cruel because, well, Durkon's killed a lot of horrible, cruel people in his life.

So Durkon thought this man was so horrible and cruel that poisoning him wasn't worthy of remark, but running away from him was?

No, I still don't take that sequence seriously.



Because she didn't like Nale in the first place (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html). She was only there because her god commanded her to steal something that Haley ended up destroying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0059.html).

We don't know that Nale knew that. She told Durkon, not him, remember?



Ok, which gate guardian did Roy allegedly kill? Roy never met the gate guardian down his path because Thog killed her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) before Roy had a chance to catch up to him.

SowZ said "participating" - which Roy did (unwittingly.)

[Boogastreehouse]

I think it looks nicer with a little space at the top and bottom.


Here's a radical theory... maybe the Order will continue their mission without all traditional D&D party roles covered.

This. This. This.

The more screwed-over the heroes are, the more at a disadvantage, the more exciting are their struggles.

Fighting to save the world from an epic lich and an evil deity that want to unleash a god-killing abomination? Well, that's pretty good. Now let's make it worse. Poof! No healing. Soon... poof! no Belkar! Soon... Poof! V gets taken out of the battle at a crucial moment! OH NO! IS THIS THE END FOR OUR HEROES? THERE'S NO WAY THE ORDER CAN SAVE THE DAY, NOW!

Losing Durkon just made this whole thing even more harrowing.


following an obviously evil leader


So Therkla was evil too, right?

Yes. Yes, she was evil. So is Redcloak. So is Belkar.

They are all evil characters, and it's okay that they're evil.


I think it looks nicer with a little space at the top and bottom.

[Cavenskull]

So Durkon thought this man was so horrible and cruel that poisoning him wasn't worthy of remark, but running away from him was?

No, I still don't take that sequence seriously.

Considering the fabled dwarven resistance to poison, maybe he thought she was kidding about that. I suppose I could concede this point, though.


We don't know that Nale knew that. She told Durkon, not him, remember?
My point was more that it established that she wouldn't have had any reason to want to go back to the Linear Guild--even if Nale did ask her to return. So without the Linear Guild to justify her presence, and if we do assume that she wouldn't attempt to hunt down and kill a man that made her unhappy, what reason would she have to chase after someone who overtly rejected her and isn't likely to budge on that issue? With all the globe-trotting they've been doing, that would also complicate efforts to catch up with them.


SowZ said "participating" - which Roy did (unwittingly.)
Based on Hilgya's other actions, I think it's safe to say she participated by deliberately clearing the way so Nale could move in and kill a sigil guardian. On the other hand, Roy had no idea that there was a sigil guardian at all. If Roy is considered evil for unwittingly helping clear the way for Thog to kill a sigil guardian, then Elan is irredeemably evil for unwittingly causing the deaths of thousands upon thousands of people. After all, if Elan hadn't destroyed the gate, Xykon and Redcloak could have come back to Dorukan's Gate, instead of massacring legions of troops at Azure City and ultimately creating the conditions that caused Vaarsuvius to cast Familicide, which killed killed a large number of beings for the crime of being related to a specific black dragon.

As far as Hilgya being evil, if nothing else, she allowed Sabine to attack Durkon, putting her desire to acquire the talisman ahead of someone she had feelings for. This also had the effect of putting Elan's life in greater danger than it otherwise would have. Had she turned on Nale right when he enacted his betrayal, the resulting 7 against 5 fight would have been much more in favor of the Order of the Stick, and would still have given her the opportunity to seize the talisman from Nale.

[Edric O]

Lien is just too minor of a character to consider as a real replacement to Durkon--it's going to be weird enough having a significant change in the Order after so many strips without a (lasting) one, so if there's a new member involved it'll probably have to be a major character.
Remember that we have been told by Word of God that Belkar is about to be permakilled really soon (he has no more than a few weeks left to live in-world, though of course that says nothing about the number of strips). So, one way or another, a major change to the Order is coming by the end of the current arc/book.

[Nymrod]

We really should expect replacement members to come in at some point. Maybe some will be NPCs we already know, maybe some will be entirely new.

[Morty]

This. This. This.

The more screwed-over the heroes are, the more at a disadvantage, the more exciting are their struggles.

Fighting to save the world from an epic lich and an evil deity that want to unleash a god-killing abomination? Well, that's pretty good. Now let's make it worse. Poof! No healing. Soon... poof! no Belkar! Soon... Poof! V gets taken out of the battle at a crucial moment! OH NO! IS THIS THE END FOR OUR HEROES? THERE'S NO WAY THE ORDER CAN SAVE THE DAY, NOW!

Losing Durkon just made this whole thing even more harrowing.


Impossible. The story must unfold exactly like a D&D campaign would. Surely Durkon will be replaced by Nokrud, his cousin twice-removed and a priest of Odin, who will be waiting outside the pyramid.

[Kish]

We really should expect replacement members to come in at some point.
Because in epic stories it's common for a new protagonist to show up when the entire story is more than halfway over?

[brionl]

In addition, there's nothing to suggest that Belkar won't survive until the end of the quest - he was given a whole year after all, of which only a few months have passed.


As of strip #666, it was seven weeks until the end of the year. All that trekking through the desert, and chasing Elan's kidnappers to the Empire of Blood, and touching/horrifying father-son reunion storyline must have taken at least a couple of weeks. So Belkar likely has only a couple of weeks left, max.

No telling how many strips, but I would expect him to shuffle off this mortal coil before the Draketooth's Gate kerfuffle is finished.

[Psyren]

The Belkster is also currently running crawling around with 1 point of Con, and nobody in the Order can restore him. A stiff breeze could take him out (again.)

[JusticeZero]

They could pick up some healie type character then have a lot of jokes about them being an obvious fillin and not really thought part of the team.
Haley and Elan can handle the important stuff, though, with UMD and a stack of wands and scrolls.

[Dr.Epic]

So am I still the only one who supports Sir Squiddley Doodle Fluffer?

[MoleMage]

So am I still the only one who supports Sir Squiddley Doodle Fluffer?

If the unnamed Cleric of Loki from Greysky city can be henceforth known as Sir Squiddley Doodle Fluffer, you have an ally in me.

[Solse]

Sorry if this has already been said, but Elan, high priest of Banjo the Clown.

[JusticeZero]

It has been, but Elan wouldn't have enough levels to cast the spells they need available to them, like Restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) and the like - spells to repair all the level and stat drain that the enemies they tend to fight toss around like candy off a parade. That's a not uncommon spell to put into a wand, though, since when you need that spell, you usually need to use it a lot. If it's in a wand, :haley: can use it. :elan: can handle some limited downtime healing already with his *bard* spells without needing to call on Banjo's minimal healing powers.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Singular: Vaarsuvius. Plural: Vaarsuviuses.

The plural would be Vaarsuvii (var-soo-vee-aye) I think.

[nonamearisto]

Elan as a cleric of Banjo? That would be an odd mix of the funny and serious aspects of the comic. Even the Orcs-who-worship-giggles part was mostly comedic. This part is deadly serious: main plot, high stakes, dead protagonist, enemies closing in. :smalleek:

[Dr.Epic]

If the unnamed Cleric of Loki from Greysky city can be henceforth known as Sir Squiddley Doodle Fluffer, you have an ally in me.

Can that be his fan name?

[Kish]

Elan as a cleric of Banjo? That would be an odd mix of the funny and serious aspects of the comic. Even the Orcs-who-worship-giggles part was mostly comedic. This part is deadly serious: main plot, high stakes, dead protagonist, enemies closing in. :smalleek:
You need Wisdom to be a cleric. At least a smidgen. And no, Elan, that's not a conspiracy.

[hamishspence]

You don't need Wisdom to be a Favored Soul though- which are a bit like sorcerers, only they're divine casters.

They use Charisma rather than Wisdom.

[Kish]

If Elan put all his future levels into Favored Soul, he'd be an epic-level character before he could cast any healing spells more powerful than those he can already cast as a bard.

I don't think so.

[hamishspence]

True. There are rules for rebuilding (Player's Handbook 2) but they're very limited.

[Holammer]

It could be Hilgya, and It's not against the law to introduce new characters to the story. But I always had a pet theory that Julia would drop the Wizard shtick and go Cleric instead after Durkon lectured her. It made some sense as Durkon was expected to die at some point and Julia seemed to take a shine to him.

This would make more sense if my second madhat prediction that:

Julia is actually the daughter of Right-eye. Her appearance and the memories of those around her (Sara & Roy) represents Eugene's magnum opus in terms of spell casting.

Okay, perhaps that's crazy troll logic and I never really explored if it would have been possible rule wise.

[dps]

It could be Hilgya, and It's not against the law to introduce new characters to the story. But I always had a pet theory that Julia would drop the Wizard shtick and go Cleric instead after Durkon lectured her. It made some sense as Durkon was expected to die at some point and Julia seemed to take a shine to him.

This would make more sense if my second madhat prediction that:

Julia is actually the daughter of Right-eye. Her appearance and the memories of those around her (Sara & Roy) represents Eugene's magnum opus in terms of spell casting.

Okay, perhaps that's crazy troll logic and I never really explored if it would have been possible rule wise.

I have no idea about ruleswise, but I don't think it fits the timeline very well--Julia isnt old enough. Though I guess if we're dealing with implanted memories, she could be considerably older than everyone thinks she is.

[dtilque]

Elan doesn't need to take cleric levels to cover basic (well, very basic) healing: he's taken Mass CLW (which is admittedly rather weak) and said he will think about taking CCW in the future (#647 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)). If he did take CCW, something tells me he'll need it soon.

Now I wonder if that was foreshadowing.

Also known as DeM repellant.

The d20SRD on Bards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm) says

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast.

[bolding mine] That means he shouldn't be able to swap a 4th level spell at 14th level, since his highest level spell is 5th. So he would have to settle for a CSW, instead. The Giant, of course, is free to disregard this if he wants.

Now if Elan had been taking all the healing spells as he went along, he'd actually be a moderately potent healer by this time. But there's a limit to how good a bard can get as healer since Heal and Restoration are not bard spells.

[Thrax]

My current idea is that once Durkon and Belkar are gone (very soon both of them will be) Lien and O-Chul could replace holes left by them. Lien could probably be a healer (do we know enough about her to stat her out?) and O-Chul be the last melee combatant.

[JusticeZero]

For the spells they've been needing the most to deal with the favorite status effects they're dealing with a lot as an inherent part of who they fight (Restoration, Death Ward, Break Enchantment), they need either:
A: Elan's next 4th level spell pick (Break Enchantment) and someone with 7 levels of Cleric (and a positive Wis bonus)
B: Someone with 11 levels of Cleric,
C: Someone with 14 levels of Paladin,
D: Some wands of Restoration that can be used with UMD.

Since they deal with the Azure Guard, C is fairly plausible; D is also a pretty likely interim plan. Neither A nor B is even remotely feasible without adding a new character. They just do not have time to get someone to change classes, in ways that are completely out of character I might add, and then level grind all the way into Epic level territory.

A new character is possible too, if only to be played off as "Well, Durkon's player wants to play something while his character is out of play!" That could be something reasonable for the setting (Here's one of the NPC's stat sheets, play them), or some oddball concept they rolled up on the spur of the moment.

[dps]

For the spells they've been needing the most to deal with the favorite status effects they're dealing with a lot as an inherent part of who they fight (Restoration, Death Ward, Break Enchantment), they need either:
A: Elan's next 4th level spell pick (Break Enchantment) and someone with 7 levels of Cleric (and a positive Wis bonus)
B: Someone with 11 levels of Cleric,
C: Someone with 14 levels of Paladin,
D: Some wands of Restoration that can be used with UMD.

Since they deal with the Azure Guard, C is fairly plausible; D is also a pretty likely interim plan. Neither A nor B is even remotely feasible without adding a new character. They just do not have time to get someone to change classes, in ways that are completely out of character I might add, and then level grind all the way into Epic level territory.

A new character is possible too, if only to be played off as "Well, Durkon's player wants to play something while his character is out of play!" That could be something reasonable for the setting (Here's one of the NPC's stat sheets, play them), or some oddball concept they rolled up on the spur of the moment.

There are no players. Why don't people get this.

Otherwise, yeah, I agree. The only problem with plan D is actually acquiring the items.

[JusticeZero]

There are no players in Goblins either, but they still manage to slip gags about them in from time to time.

[Kish]

There are players in Goblins. They've been referenced multiple times.

OotS is different. There is no such character as Roy's Player or Durkon's Player.

[JusticeZero]

Nonetheless, it's still plausible to have a brief gag referencing something that only happens in a normal game because of a fixed number of players, and use it for a justification for bringing on a short-term tag-along character who helps out for awhile as they try to sort the Durkon problem out. "Players" are unnecessary for that. It would just be treated as one of the tropes that the bards deal with.

[Jaffo]

Impossible. The story must unfold exactly like a D&D campaign would. Surely Durkon will be replaced by Nokrud, his cousin twice-removed and a priest of Odin, who will be waiting outside the pyramid.

I would kind of love that.

[GreatWyrmGold]

- V learns some weird Necromancy magic that heals.

1. Healing was originally necromancy, and despite this being changed to Conjuration (healing) in 3.5 or so for reasons that baffle me, the school description still implies such. Not so weird.
2. V can't cast necromancy spells, so even if such a spell existed...
3. Conjuration's out too, in case you were wondering.



Anyways, to debunk common ideas:
1. While Durkon may well rejoin the party, he's not going to be a healer barring some fixup of the vampiric thrall transition from Lawful Good to Probably-Lawful Evil.
2. While Elan is probably going to be the main healer, he's better suited leveling some more in bard than taking levels of some divine spellcasting class.
3. Hilgya appeared once and vanished in the Dungeon of Dorukon. Which exploded. Good chance of survival, no? And even if she did, when would she meet up with the Order?
4. Random new character? Sure, trust a cleric out of the nearest temple with your important secrets about the nature of the universe and whatnot.

It seems to me that Elan's not going to have the spell slots to cast so many illusions...

[rodneyAnonymous]

4. Random new character?

I doubt a new main character would be introduced more than halfway through a story.

[SowZ]

Again, the poison was played for laughs (just like the "sprit-crushing" foot massages.) Now, the Giant can easily have Hilgya's backstory take a darker turn, but as it stands right now I don't take anything from that sequence too seriously. And Durkon didn't mention the poison either, he was only angry because she left her marriage behind; if the Giant had meant that to be taken seriously he would have had Durkon call it out directly.



"If she was evil, then she'd be evil!" is a meaningless tautology, nothing more.



I disagree - her perspective could be enlightening in many ways. What does Loki think of the DO? Or the IFCC? Where did she go after the Redmountain explosion? Why didn't (or couldn't) Nale try to recruit her once more? Did she come to worship Loki before or after fleeing her clan? Did Durkon get her pregnant? Whether or not he did, what would she think of his becoming a vampire?

Perhaps she was meant to be a throwaway character, I wouldn't know. But I think there's a lot of potential that will be lost if she is.

My argument isn't at all tautological. My argument is that if Roy or Therkla had been willing to go as far as Hilgya, they would be evil.


I doubt a new main character would be introduced more than halfway through a story.

Neon Genesis: Evangellion?

[Kish]

Anyways, to debunk common ideas:
1. While Durkon may well rejoin the party, he's not going to be a healer barring some fixup of the vampiric thrall transition from Lawful Good to Probably-Lawful Evil.
2. While Elan is probably going to be the main healer
Because a cleric who needs to actually prepare healing spells rather than spontaneously casting them is a worse healer than a bard.

(This is sarcasm.)

[allenw]

Nonetheless, it's still plausible to have a brief gag referencing something that only happens in a normal game because of a fixed number of players, and use it for a justification for bringing on a short-term tag-along character who helps out for awhile as they try to sort the Durkon problem out. "Players" are unnecessary for that. It would just be treated as one of the tropes that the bards deal with.

A classic thing that could happen in a "real" D&D game at this point (if Durkon's player had to leave) would be for one of the remaining PCs to take the Leadership feat, and get a Cleric cohort. Since Leadership can lead to all sorts of easily-mocked oddness, I kind of hope that Rich actually goes this route. :smallcool:
If Elan took Leadership, he could get a Cleric (of Banjo?) cohort only two levels lower than himself, plus about 60 followers of 1st-5th level.

[Thrax]

A classic thing that could happen in a "real" D&D game at this point (if Durkon's player had to leave) would be for one of the remaining PCs to take the Leadership feat, and get a Cleric cohort. Since Leadership can lead to all sorts of easily-mocked oddness, I kind of hope that Rich actually goes this route. :smallcool:
If Elan took Leadership, he could get a Cleric (of Banjo?) cohort only two levels lower than himself, plus about 60 followers of 1st-5th level.

I know, Elan's cohort could be Shaman Gurkle (or whatever his name was)! After his untimely exile from his tribe for secretely still adhering to Banjo, he went to the Western Continent in search of his god's prophet.

[skim172]

I would really doubt Durkon would come back. He's a vampire now, first off. And it seems like it would entirely undermine the impact of Durkon dying if he immediately returns to his old position.

Same with Malack - he's evil, and he killed Durkon. Again, would seem to undermine the impact of Malack's reveal and Durkon's death.

My guess right now is that they'd hang in there with Elan's limited healing abilities and potions for now.

Maybe Hilgya comes back. She's a cleric, she's got a pre-established relationship to Durkon - probably fits the role. Although she is evil (neutral?)

The rogue Cleric of Loki from Greysky - eh. He wasn't a major character and he doesn't even have a name.

Hinjo? He is a paladin. But he's also a very busy king of a nation of refugees trying desperately to establish itself in a foreign land and clearing out a bunch of monsters. He might show up to ward off Xykon and Team Evil, but I doubt he'd travel with them. O-Chul and Lien are far off at Kraagor's Gate.

It's been a while since I played D&D and I never really played as a magic user - can arcane magic-users like Celia or Julia Greenhilt make for decent healers? Not that I think either is likely, just curious.

At this point, I think this becomes a cleric-less party that will just have to deal. I did play an older edition, so maybe 3.5 pretty much needs a balanced team with a dedicated healer, but I recall going off without much healing magic fairly often when I played.

[Kish]

The only core class that can cast healing spells as arcane spells is bard. Neither sorcerers like Celia, nor wizards like Julia, can ever learn any spell that will heal a biological creature. If the entire party turned into constructs then Celia/Julia would be able to learn spells to repair them--assuming Transmutation isn't a barred school for Julia.

[JackRose]

The only core class that can cast healing spells as arcane spells is bard. Neither sorcerers like Celia, nor wizards like Julia, can ever learn any spell that will heal a biological creature. If the entire party turned into constructs then Celia/Julia would be able to learn spells to repair them--assuming Transmutation isn't a barred school for Julia.

Clearly, Julia will learn Wish and use it only to duplicate the effects of appropriate Cure spells.

[MoleMage]

Speaking of Wish, I wonder whether it's capable of revoking class levels and changing them to someone else? I mean it's not on the deliberate list, but...

[JusticeZero]

The other thing? This whole time, Elan has been learning a lot of healing spells. like, a LOT of healing spells. Far more than his experiences so far would seem to justify. Does anyone have his spell list so far? Because most Bards I see have very little healing for the reason that they have so many other awesome spells to pick, and the Cleric is doing his/her job at keeping people healed anyways. My memory has been that Elan has picked up almost every Healing spell he can get, and I don't know if i've ever even seen him need to use one of them. It's as if.. he knew.. or was just foreshadowing.

That said they still need the Restoration wand ASAP, because they need to get that attribute and level wreckage fixed today, and Elan *never* gets it.

[brionl]

A classic thing that could happen in a "real" D&D game at this point (if Durkon's player had to leave) would be for one of the remaining PCs to take the Leadership feat, and get a Cleric cohort. Since Leadership can lead to all sorts of easily-mocked oddness, I kind of hope that Rich actually goes this route. :smallcool:
If Elan took Leadership, he could get a Cleric (of Banjo?) cohort only two levels lower than himself, plus about 60 followers of 1st-5th level.

I could see a cohort showing up, but I really doubt they would have that many followers.

Some cleric, inspired by Elan's "stirring" speech at the games seeks the party out and offers his or her services?

Right Eye's daughter is still pretty young, even if she did become a cleric. The last we saw of her in Start of Darkness 3 years ago, she was still a pre-pubescent child. Even for a goblin, she's probably not past her late teens yet.

[MoleMage]

Right Eye's daughter is still pretty young, even if she did become a cleric. The last we saw of her in Start of Darkness 3 years ago, she was still a pre-pubescent child. Even for a goblin, she's probably not past her late teens yet.

Spoilering below even though it's probably a lost cause at this point...

Actually, she looked to be about the same age when last we saw her that Right-Eye was when first we saw him (timeline 34 years ago). In the next part with Right-Eye (timeline 30 years ago) he was fully grown and had apparently started taking levels in rogue. If you account for the time that has passed within the online strips, Right-Eye's daughter is probably grown up enough to start taking class levels...but probably only in the less time-consuming classes.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Neon Genesis: Evangellion?

I don't mean it's impossible, just that I doubt it. Anime is especially likely to break that convention.

[allenw]

I could see a cohort showing up, but I really doubt they would have that many followers.

By the rules, Elan would get a cohort and 60-ish followers (most of them 1st level). In a reasonably-run campaign, they wouldn't all show up immediately on the pyramid's doorstep. In OotS, with Elan as the PC, however...
(Alternately, they can all show up in the first encounter after the Order falls through the rift into Snarlworld, which I expect to be before Elan gains another level).

[Dr.Epic]

What about this guy? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36lSzUMBJnc)

[dps]

The other thing? This whole time, Elan has been learning a lot of healing spells. like, a LOT of healing spells. Far more than his experiences so far would seem to justify. Does anyone have his spell list so far?

According to the Class and Level Geekery Thread, he has Animate Rope, Disguise Self, Greater Dispel Magic, Lesser Confusion, Major Image, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mending, Neutralize Poison, Prestidigitation, Silent Image, and Summon Plot Exposition. This isn't necessarily a complete list, rather, these are spells that he has either cast, or stated that he has. He definately doesn't have Cure Critical Wounds, Identify, or Break Enchantment at this point.

[Thrax]

According to the Class and Level Geekery Thread, he has Animate Rope, Disguise Self, Greater Dispel Magic, Lesser Confusion, Major Image, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mending, Neutralize Poison, Prestidigitation, Silent Image, and Summon Plot Exposition. This isn't necessarily a complete list, rather, these are spells that he has either cast, or stated that he has. He definately doesn't have Cure Critical Wounds, Identify, or Break Enchantment at this point.

Are we treating Summon Plot Exposition as an actual spell? Not just a "half-camel" type joke?

[Kish]

Not a good comparison. "Vaarsuvius is a half-camel" was Elan making a stupid assumption; Summon Plot Exposition resulted in pictures.

[gooddragon1]

1 level dip draconic shaman from phb 2, aura of vigor (fast healing 1 up to half), bard cure spells.

Or touch of healing reserve feat retrain (from complete champion) (also heals up to half).

Or horrible abuse of RAW with martial spirit stance. (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232171)

[busterswd]

Posted this in the Elan's Plan thread, but wanted another thread's take on it, since people there seem convinced he's going to convert cleric of Banjo.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html) seems like it has the potental for something big, and I for one sort of just glossed over it, because it was, well, Elan talking.

Sending to Hinjo, perhaps? Although it could have just as easily been babbling to Durkon about something, since he just seems confused in the next strip.

[Prospero7]

I for one wouldn't mind if Hilgya showed up again. She should be on par with Durkon level-wise, and she wasn't really evil. If Belkar dies, the Order will need a new source of internal conflict anyway.

I am hoping Hilgya shows up again as it would re-introduce another aspect of Durkon's character growth that hasn't been revisited since book one.

Also, who knows, maybe Hilgya will WANT to join the OOTS to help redeem Durkon. After all, maybe Durkon is a father by now... :amused: