Warlock 20 vs Sorcerer 20. What do?

[Scarey Nerd]

OK, Playground. I asked this a few months back, but since the search function isn't working I can't go back and see the thread, so I figured I'd get a fresh look at the problem.

I am/will be a Warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3. I need to kill a Sorcerer 20. And my over-confidence would seem to be my weakness, because I drastically underestimated the danger when thinking about this fight. He's reckless, and focuses on lightning-based spells, but then I realised that he has access to things like Wish. I'm not saying I'm scared, but I'm certainly not feeling as good as I was about this. I need your help to think of tactics to destroy an insane and powerful foe.

He's a player, just so you know, not an NPC. He has a penchant for lightning spells, so he might be foolish enough to fritter away high level spell slots on metamagic-ed Lightning Bolts etc. I certainly hope so. In regards to my invocations, I'll have the following: Least: Beguiling Influence, Hideous Blow, Otherwordly Whispers, Eldritch Spear, Baleful Utterance, All-Seeing Eyes.
Lesser: Weighty Utterance, Fell Flight, Brimstone Blast, Ignore the Pyre, Curse of Despair.
Greater: Wall of Perilous Flame, Eldritch Line, Repelling Blast.
Dark: Eldritch Doom, Caster's Lament, Dark Foresight.

So, yeah. Advice, strategies, useful magic items (Though cheese probably won't fly with my DM), whatever you can throw at me. Cheers in advance, you resourceful little chaps and chapettes you.

[Kazyan]

Aside from the blatantly obvious item of electricity resistance...a Shadow Cloak, for a 3/day Abrupt Jaunt. Ring of Spell-Battle, to redirect one of his spells into himself: if he's reckless, chances are he'll be a glass cannon, and getting him to kill himself as an immediate action is too funny not to try.

Consider a custom staff that contains Otiluke's Supressing Field, then activate it against the Evoaction school. Laugh as he has to hit a DC 31 caster level check for blasting to do anything to you.

[Phelix-Mu]

A key thing to consider is that it isn't too hard to get access to metamagic rods of energy substitution. You should try to ascertain if he has any of these ahead of time, if possible.

Finally, a similar thread brought up the existence of something from...was it Exemplars of Evil? In any case, I believe it was a spell called friendly fire, that allows you to redirect ranged touch attacks targeting you to any other nearby target. The reason that I bring this up is orb of x defense, which can be troubling (especially in its force permutation).

Another way to deal with low level stuff is globe of invulnerability, which is a pretty strong effect overall, worth UMDing.

Finally, have you come up with a way to eldritch blast more than once per round? I'm not sure from your build, but a good idea would be to mix up expectations on the part of the enemy might be to retrain feats or something so that you have access to a novel tactical option. Eldritch claws would be useful, but I doubt you will be able to close with him effectively.

Doesn't eldritch blast work inside silence? If you could fight in a large area of silence, that might considerable limit his spell options (especially wish, unless he has the appropriate metamagic rod).

[Douglas]

I don't remember offhand what it is, but I believe there's an item that gets you additional invocations known. Pick up one of those for Utterdark Blast. Negative levels are one of the most powerful debuff effects out there short of instant wins, and they stack without limit. Unless you have the damage output to drop him near instantly, you'll have to whittle him down, and this will help reduce his fighting ability along the way rather than have him at full power until death.

[Scarey Nerd]

A key thing to consider is that it isn't too hard to get access to metamagic rods of energy substitution. You should try to ascertain if he has any of these ahead of time, if possible.

Finally, a similar thread brought up the existence of something from...was it Exemplars of Evil? In any case, I believe it was a spell called friendly fire, that allows you to redirect ranged touch attacks targeting you to any other nearby target. The reason that I bring this up is orb of x defense, which can be troubling (especially in its force permutation).

Another way to deal with low level stuff is globe of invulnerability, which is a pretty strong effect overall, worth UMDing.

Finally, have you come up with a way to eldritch blast more than once per round? I'm not sure from your build, but a good idea would be to mix up expectations on the part of the enemy might be to retrain feats or something so that you have access to a novel tactical option. Eldritch claws would be useful, but I doubt you will be able to close with him effectively.

Doesn't eldritch blast work inside silence? If you could fight in a large area of silence, that might considerable limit his spell options (especially wish, unless he has the appropriate metamagic rod).

As I recall, Invocations and Eldritch Blast only have somatic components, no verbal component unless specifically mentioned, like Baleful Utterance has you utter a word of the Dark Speech... So silence might well cripple him. As for not being able to close with him, I have a feeling he'll try and fight me hand-to-hand once he's running low on spells. I forgot to mention his love of longswords, he might well think he could stand to fight me in close combat, in which case he'll be eating a Hellfire hideous blow with my Falchion. Let's see how he feels after 15d6+2d4+1.5xstrength of damage hits him. Naturally close combat isn't the best option for either of us, but if I close with him then he'd be provoking an attack of opportunity every time he casts a spell. Plus I tend to use Fell Flight almost exclusively, walking is so outdated, and with Weighty Utterance I can have a go at smashing him into the ground if I lure him into close combat 100ft off the ground...

[WhatBigTeeth]

Any reason not to use Imbue Item to go mini-artificer on him? Considering the wealth potential in crafting, you can probably afford to have more spells available at a time than he can.

[Rhaegar14]

Eldritch Glaive, out of Dragon Magic, is an invocation you should look at if you expect him to try melee. Basically, you attack as though wielding a reach weapon, and can make opportunity attacks as though wielding a reach weapon until the start of your next turn, except they're touch attacks and use your Eldritch Blast damage. The kicker here, however, is that Eldritch Glaive lets you get your iterative attacks for having a high base attack bonus.

[Phelix-Mu]

I forgot about Utterdark Blast (or rather, confused it with Eldritch Doom). Do take Utterdark Blast. It is soooo useful, and it will really hit the sorcerer where it hurts, since energy drain will reduce access to the caster's highest level spells.

[Karoht]

Please keep absolutely in mind that this Sorcerer can do some pretty crazy things to you.
Celerity + Belt of Battle + Arcane Fusion, and several varieties and flavors thereof. If he's smart, action economy breaking will be a thing. If not, then he's a very beatable opponent.

That ring of spell battle? Totally going to pay off. Spell Turning will likely help as well.

Rod of Absorbtion is a neat little trick to abuse.

Spellblade Enchant on some items will help as well. Absorb a spell (decided on when you create the weapon) and fling it back as a swift action. Excellent candidates are Greater Dispel Magic/Chain Dispel. You can also Spellblade things like Baleful Polymorph. As long as the spell has to target you (and not an area) you can absorb it with Spellblade/Rod of Absorbtion, or fling them back with Spell Turning.

Best of luck.

[Crake]

depending on your abilties, you could always just get a single use antimagic item and just beat him up?

[Chilingsworth]

Could you try something sneaky like waiting for him to fall asleep and coup de grace him? (Preferably after getting your hands on a particularly nasty weapon like a wounding, (whatever he is) bane, (whatever alignment targeting effect(s) hurt him) collision viscious Scythe (that you then cast 20th CL greater magic weapon on via a 20th CL wand and UMD.) It doesn't matter if you're profficent with the thing, for a coup de grace. You can also UMD to imitate and alignment so you can avoid the negative level(s) from the alignment targeting effects, if wielding a weapon with them would hurt you.

[Alaris]

I believe the thread you made before is here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254556

I don't know if it will actually provide any answers, but I figured I'd post it for ya anyway. :P

[Chilingsworth]

Hmm... reading some of your earlier thread looks like the coup de grace would be difficult.

You could get a start on intell gathering (or maybe even make effective allies) if you have any bits of him left (maybe bloody bits of clothing or something?) Anyway, if you can get some, you can make simaculra or even ice assassins. You'd do this by pumping your UMD check and using scrolls of simaculrum and/or ice assassin.

A mere simaculrum wouldn't be much of a threat to him, but it would be able to tell you some of his spell list, and might know more. An ice assassin would be a legitimate threat to him and a worthy ally for you.

[Kane0]

If at all possible, change out one of your least invocs. for dark ones own luck for cha bonus to reflex. It will help a little against his lightning bolts.

also, eldritch spear for longer range than his lightning bolts.

The curse lesser invocation could also come in handy if you can land one on him. Give him some spell failure or something.

[Douglas]

I forgot about Utterdark Blast (or rather, confused it with Eldritch Doom). Do take Utterdark Blast. It is soooo useful, and it will really hit the sorcerer where it hurts, since energy drain will reduce access to the caster's highest level spells.
Given his play style as a blaster, the caster level decrease is almost as important. Every negative level is one less die of damage on every spell he casts.


If at all possible, change out one of your least invocs. for dark ones own luck for cha bonus to reflex. It will help a little against his lightning bolts.

also, eldritch spear for longer range than his lightning bolts.

The curse lesser invocation could also come in handy if you can land one on him. Give him some spell failure or something.
Also, get a ring of evasion if you don't have one already.

[Sugashane]

Eldritch Glaive, out of Dragon Magic, is an invocation you should look at if you expect him to try melee. Basically, you attack as though wielding a reach weapon, and can make opportunity attacks as though wielding a reach weapon until the start of your next turn, except they're touch attacks and use your Eldritch Blast damage. The kicker here, however, is that Eldritch Glaive lets you get your iterative attacks for having a high base attack bonus.

Eldritch glaive+ Ring of Divine Power will allow for 4 attacks at full BAB (and even better, they're touch attacks). Use Hellfire Blast on at least 2 of the attacks to add some damage. Being a straight Sorc he won't have a ton to spare.

Might look into a way to do a teleport or shift to get within reach.

Also you can wear Mithril full plate with one feat (Battle Caster) so it won't risk any spell failure (which Eldritch blasts are subject to) and it can be enchanted as well, to give whatever abilities you want like Spell Resistance.

[super dark33]

With your warlock, it's gonna be very hard. Many of your invocations simply aren't worth it.
I'll make a more detailed post later.

Elderitch line, hideous blow, ignore the pyre, all these invocations suck.
Switch elderitch doom for utterdark blast, wall of perilous flame for chilling tentacles, repealing blast for vitriolic blast. <continued later>

[Scarey Nerd]

Thank you for the link to my previous thread! :smallbiggrin:

The invocations I've chosen, I've chosen mainly for backstory reasons, they simply make more sense for the character. I agree that Utterdark Blast is fantastic, and I was torn between that and Eldritch Doom, I picked Doom simply because it helps maintain my fire-theme. Eldritch Line... Well, this is going to sound stupid, but I got it because of Harry Potter. Our DM likes to play things very cinematically, so if I prepare an action to throw a Brimstone Line if the sorcerer casts Lightning Bolt, there's no telling what kind of crazy things could happen, and knowing my DM it might end very well for me, if we have to start making opposing rolls and things. On your advice, I'm changing Hideous Blow for Eldritch Glaive, originally I wanted HB because it would let me channel my blast through my Falchion, which is awesome, but I think creating a weapon at will (and therefore never being truly unarmed) is better, in combat terms as well as it being cool.

[Mnemnosyne]

Make sure to make full use of Imbue Item and your UMD abilities. Your UMD check should be high enough to reliably cast every single spell off a scroll, staff, or wand. Make a few scrolls of high level spells that you'll find useful during the fight, a wand of another useful spell. The wand you can stick inside a wand chamber on a buckler, to keep it always handy. A wand of celerity is a really good idea, for instance, especially if you buff up with favor of the martyr first to make yourself immune to dazing.

I also agree with using globe of invulnerability, since it makes you immune to his lightning bolts unless he puts at least 2 levels of metamagic into heightening them. A few scrolls, or a wand, of antimagic ray could very well cinch the fight for you if he doesn't have protections against antimagic. Hit him with that and if he doesn't have some way to cast in antimagic, he's pretty much done for. Similarly, a glyph seal of antimagic field might do wonders for you, if you can set it up in a place where he'll trigger it.

A scroll or two of time stop, to allow you to buff up effectively, would not go amiss, also. If he ever uses ranged touch attacks, either ray deflection or friendly fire are really good choices, especially if you can take 1 full round to buff up with friendly fire, making it a minute/level spell on him. Similarly, watch out for him having buffed with friendly fire, because he might very well be prepared to turn your own hellfire blast against you. Even just ray deflection will prevent you from using your normal hellfire blast or eldritch spear - only line and doom will avail you if he has those protections.

There's a few spells in Anauroch: Empire of Shade that might be especially valuable. Dweomer vortex, a 3rd level spell, will protect you against any spells of 3rd level or lower. In addition to this, you can use it to automatically dispel spells on another creature. It starts with the lowest, and can only dispel six levels of spells total, but it's still a no-check dispel. Mystic shield is an 8th level spell that will prevent all spells of 6th level or lower from affecting you for 1 round/level. It does have a 400 gp material component, but it certainly seems like it's worthwhile.

I also strongly agree with switching up some more of your invocations. Stylistic and 'backstory reason' though they might have, if your character has decent mental stats, he should realize by now that they are suboptimal for the fight he is expecting, and he needs to prepare to win this fight in any manner necessary, rather than crippling himself for style or theme. At least, that'd be my way of looking at it. Sure, he might want to switch back to the powers he likes better later, but by switching to the most effective ones now for this fight which he should realize is going to be very, very difficult, he's making use of his 'theme' by causing his enemy to think that he'll have a completely different set of abilities available.

[Soranar]

Hum, with things I Wish and timestop at his disposal, I don't think you're supposed to stand a chance in a straight up fight, even if you're tweaked with magic items.

I wouldn't bother with that approach, instead think of this

you get medium BAB and d6 hitpoints

he gets wizard BAB and d4 hitpoints

solution: get an antimagic field effect (easy enough with a scroll and UMD it)

grapple him and bash his skull into the ground

[jywu98]

Hum, with things I Wish and timestop at his disposal, I don't think you're supposed to stand a chance in a straight up fight, even if you're tweaked with magic items.

I wouldn't bother with that approach, instead think of this

you get medium BAB and d6 hitpoints

he gets wizard BAB and d4 hitpoints

solution: get an antimagic field effect (easy enough with a scroll and UMD it)

grapple him and bash his skull into the ground

20th level sorcerers can partially bypass AMFs via Invoke Magic (RAI at least). Anyway, you have to get in range to the Sorcerer before activating AMF, or you're just wasting your actions. And that's gonna be very challenging to do.

[Soranar]

20th level sorcerers can partially bypass AMFs via Invoke Magic (RAI at least). Anyway, you have to get in range to the Sorcerer before activating AMF, or you're just wasting your actions. And that's gonna be very challenging to do.

a level 20 sorcerer has a whooping 3 level 9 spells.

usually that means timestop, wish and shapechange

there's a reason why sorcerers are tier 2

[jywu98]

That doesn't change my second point at all, which is the more important one.

[super dark33]

Use imbue item to make permanent rings, use them on other permanent rings to make permanent tings of permanent effect, then make a permanent ring of disjunction.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, here is what you do.

You need a belt of battle and a few CL 20 scroll of Mage’s Disjunction.

Prebuff with the globe.

Items that will help are a cloak of resistance, a ring of evasion, electrical resistance/immunity, a scroll of Globe of Invulnerability, a scroll of greater invisibility, and a rod of extend metamagic to extend both the invis and globe. A CL 20 scroll of divine power won't hurt as well as other pre-battle buffs.

Use the belt of battle to activate the scroll of Mage’s Disjunction. This will strip the caster of all his buffs.

Then ready your action to use Warlocks counterspell whenever he casts a spell taking more than a swift action to cast. By that I mean an eldrich blast to the face. Lets see him make a DC 10+damage dealt concentration check to pull off any non-quickened spell.

Note a sorcerer cannot quicken spells by default, and if they can it is a limited number of times per day.

So, if he reacts perfectly he will only be able to hit you with quickened 5th level spells, as 4th and lower are ignored by the globe and 6th and above cannot be quickened without metamagic reduction, and thus trigger your readied attack.

each time you peg the guy he looses a 9th level spell slot. These are the only spells he can hit you with as both quickened and 5th level.

Note: exclude quickened spells from your readied action attack. You don't want him eating the blast casting quickened magic missile to turn around and hit you with a 9th.

The first round will be you sit invisible 100ft away, flying. Hit him with disjunction, move back one move action move 15ft to the side(to keep him guessing) and ready an action to eldrich spear him when he casts a non-quickened spell.

He will burn a spell to buff himself or attack you (remind your DM that sorcerer's can't quicken unless they took a particular choice of feat or ACF) The spell is subject to your attack.

If you cannot hit the flat footed touch AC of a dispelled sorcerer you need to go home.

He takes a lot of damage and looses his spell, and thus his round. You ready another action to peg him if he casts and move to a new spot 100ft away from him.

He then moves "out of range" try to cast again. Follow him and ready an attack to hit him if he casts.

He will burn through his spell slots, and become very weakened. Slowly close with him. If he keeps casting just peg him. If he stops casting entirely slowly close with him and eldrich glaive him into oblivion with a single massive attack.

Quicken spell like ability can be used to do a swift action eldrich blast on rounds 2,3, and 4. Do this if possible to keep the pressure on for him to try to cast something.

Each blast should be applying a negative level. This is too good of an invocation not to take.

As an alternative finish layer on 5-10 negative levels and then use a scroll of Implosion as a high DC SOD with a massive penalty to his fort save from negative levels. The DC should be 23, the sorcerer should have a fort save of maybe +5 by the time you layer on 5 negative levels. Fails on all but a 18,19 or 20, max.

Greater teleport is likely your best option for getting into range. A scroll will do nicely. Pre-buff and pop in invisible to wreck his day.