Durkon's "Thralldom"

[R-Group]

Having read the newest strip, we now know that Durkon is temporarily under direct control of Malack until he chooses to release him. As Malack says, "He shall act as my servant."

However, I was thinking: what should happen to Durkon if Malack is destroyed? I'm going out on a limb here, but it is my personal opinion that Durkon (once released from being a thrall) will "feel more like himself," to put it in the master vamp's own words. I'm hopeful that Durkon will more or less return to his "old self" once he is freed, to an extent.

Under dungeons and dragon rules, I'm fairly certain (could be wrong here) that if the master vampire is permanently destroyed, then all of their "children" are given completely free will.

Thus, I both predict and desperately hope that in the following story arc, we will see Belkar convince the remains of the Order to withdraw, hopefully after finding V. Next, I hope that the Linear Guild and Team Evil will have a showdown, during which Malack will be destroyed while Durkon is not (somehow). Therefore, Durkon will regain his free will, in whatever capacity that is, while not being dragged all the way back to Bleedingham. And then, to end on a happier twist, Durkon will be able to regroup with the rest of the Order. I really do hope something akin to this happens, as Durkon has been a favorite character of mine (and many other people) for a long time. It would be a real shame to see him become a mindless horror, though the writing will be exquisite either way.

So that's my hope as to the outcome of the new Count. Thoughts? Criticism?

[Leirus]

Malack is also separated form the LG at the moment. I hope he will be destroyed by the OotS and a free willed vampire Durkon will rejoin the order. Lawful and all that. But I never guess what The Giant has in mind...

[NerdyKris]

Malack is also separated form the LG at the moment. I hope he will be destroyed by the OotS and a free willed vampire Durkon will rejoin the order. Lawful and all that. But I never guess what The Giant has in mind...

It would be incredibly anti-climatic to have this massive transformation of the character not even make it out of the pyramid. I think we can safely assume that he's going to stick around for a little bit at least.

[Ellye]

The trauma of becoming an undead, the urge for the blood of the living..

Even when Durkon ends up "feeling more like himself", I don't think he'll have more than a passing resemblance to the Durkon that was.

I can't imagine vampire Durkon being anything but Evil. If the Order try to somehow bring him along - even if he's willing to try to be their ally again - they'll be in grave danger. Would any of them really trust to have him as their ally? Would they really be able to actually lay down and sleep with a Vampire in the party?

And even if Vampire Durkon do try to be Good, there's no way to know if he would succeed. Even if he managed to cooperate with them for a while, a sudden urge to feed and surge of hatred of all that is living would be enough to make him turn on his "friends".

[R-Group]

I can't imagine vampire Durkon being anything but Evil. If the Order try to somehow bring him along - even if he's willing to try to be their ally again - they'll be in grave danger. Would any of them really trust to have him as their ally? Would they really be able to actually lay down and sleep with a Vampire in the party?

And even if Vampire Durkon do try to be Good, there's no way to know if he would succeed. Even if he managed to cooperate with them for a while, a sudden urge to feed and surge of hatred of all that is living would be enough to make him turn on his "friends".

Well, as of yet we've really only seen two undead with "real" free will (I'm ignoring wights, mummies, zombies, etc.). Those two would be Xykon and Malack. I'm pretty sure Malack proves that undead, at least vampires, aren't completely psychopathic. He gets along fine with Tarquin, and does not seem to have any "hatred for the living". I think its much more likely that Durkon will just not remember who he was before than have a sudden homicidal streak. I get the feeling that with time, he can become a trusted ally of the Order once more, just as Malack is to Tarquin. In this case, however, he will likely act maliciously and violently as any vampire should. But then again, the Order has handed Belkar all this time, and V is trudging closer and closer to the "deep end" of the alignment pool. As long as Durkon can exhibit as much self control as Malack, I see little reason why they couldn't be allies.

[Minitroll]

Would any of them really trust to have him as their ally?

They have Belkar, don't they?

[Ellye]

They have Belkar, don't they?Who, while extremely Evil and Chaotic, has always been a decent teammate to them. And isn't powered by Negative Energy and the blood of the living.

But, more central to this issue, being a Vampire basically goes against everything that Durkon ever was. I can't imagine him getting over it in any way. And on a more meta level, I just find it would be quite anti-climatic to have Durkon rejoin the Order.

[Morquard]

Well Malack has been a member of Tarquin's group for the last 30 years or so.

Granted not a perfect example, since they're evil and all, I know that. But it shows that a vampire does not mean "bloodthirsty, mindless killing machine" and can in fact be a teamplayer.

The Order on the other hand has demonstrated with Belkar that they're sort-of ok with evil in the party. It's not so far fetched they take a similar stance with Durkon.

So it is a small possibility. Small. Very small. Malack after all had 200 years or so to get used to his condition.

Personally I don't think it will happen, at least not soon. It is quite possible that Durkon first brings Death and Destruction to his homeland as per prophecy but later helps out the Order against Xykon. Or maybe even Malack (though here I don't believe that Malack will necessarily make it out alive)

[R-Group]

But, more central to this issue, being a Vampire basically goes against everything that Durkon ever was. I can't imagine him getting over it in any way. And on a more meta level, I just find it would be quite anti-climatic to have Durkon rejoin the Order.


Well Malack has been a member of Tarquin's group for the last 30 years or so.
...
So it is a small possibility. Small. Very small. Malack after all had 200 years or so to get used to his condition.


I would agree on the subject of time. Whether or not I alluded to as much, I didn't mean to say that it would all occur immediately. I have enough faith in the Giant that whatever happens, it will be done with immaculate timing and presentation such that the story/character's progression will be natural

The majority of my argument was supposed to articulate my belief that this isn't the end of Durkon. I wholeheartedly support your position, Ellye, that it would be anti-climatic for Durkon to not undergo some kind of change, I just believe that with enough time he will be likely be able to rejoin the Order and their quest.

[semi]

I know it's not an actual D&D group but if you look at it as a group, how would/will OoTS function without a primary healer? So, perhaps someone (LG or Belkar somehow) will be able to kill/destroy Malack and provide the free will that Durkon would need to remain the OoTS healer?

Durkon could get the free will bit and then tell the Order (or just in a soliloquy) some jibberish about him being evil and unable to work w/ the Order any more. In his despair or whatnot he wanders back home where he could be killed/rezzed/something after maybe doing a little munching on his kinfolk because he couldn't resist the urge and when the Order shows up he can join them; perhaps to atone for his vampire behavior or because the Order needs him.

I dunno, it just seems late in the ballgame to lose their healer and have to recruit one.

[Kislath]

What happens if Durkon casts Holy Word now?

Oh, wait, nevermind. It would have to be UNholy Word.

An undead priest..is a curious beast...

[Tre of the Wood]

I like the idea that Durkon will want to join up with the OOTS, but they won't want him. They will be intent on destroying him and raising the old Durkon, but when Xykon comes they will align out of necessity. One cleric casts Disruption, and then Roy immediately kills the nearest vampires with it and destroys the gate to keep Team Evil off of it. Classic betrayal, except this time by the good guys. The plotline has to end soon, and I don't see enough time for a full showdown with the LG and OOTS, much less with Xykon and the others.

[rodneyAnonymous]

What happens if Durkon casts Holy Word now?

It is a Good domain spell, I don't think he can cast it anymore, even if the spellcasting-in-general problem is resolved.

The Evil equivalent is called Blasphemy (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Blasphemy).

[Torrasque]

I really dont see how people keep thinking Durkon will just go back to being good old Durkon as a vampire. The only thing i see pointing in that direction is Malacks single comment in the last strip. Malacks plan of having an "equal" does suggest giving him free will, but it is an incredibly stupid plan if it just means Durkon going back to being himself. He will attack Malack right away, despite the odds, as he has already shown he will do. Even if Malack has some kind of system in line to keep him in check, he will simply destroy himself as the second best thing, since he is everything he hates.
If Malack does not have the knowledge (from first hand experience) that Durkon will default to Darth Durkon as a vampire, there is no chance he will ever have the colleague he desires.

So the only evidence pointing towards a good aligned durkon vampire is not really a usefull argument, and everything else points to him defaulting to evil as a vampire.
First and foremost the rules for being a vampire in D&D. Now this might of course be ignored or altered by Rich, no doubt, but it is right now a big indicator of evil.
What else we have seen in the comic points only to evil durkon. His armor turning black is a clear indicator of alignment shift in the comic so far. (and dont start any crap about V not actually changing alignment, because what she did in that state was definetely on the path to evil, whether anything actually stuck or not).
Yelling about craving the blood of the living instead of being confused by his new creature type and position as a thrall, also seems an indicator that he is not just turning into sparkly Durkon, and is in fact a monster.

[Mike Havran]

I can't really see vampire Durkon rejoining the Order and adventuring with them. Belkar is a monster, but on a different level than one who needs to regularly feed on the blood of the living. Tarquin might be fine with his buddy Malack's drinking habits, but Roy would never approve.

[R-Group]

I really dont see how people keep thinking Durkon will just go back to being good old Durkon as a vampire. The only thing i see pointing in that direction is Malacks single comment in the last strip.

(snipped to below)

So the only evidence pointing towards a good aligned durkon vampire is not really a usefull argument, and everything else points to him defaulting to evil as a vampire.
First and foremost the rules for being a vampire in D&D. Now this might of course be ignored or altered by Rich, no doubt, but it is right now a big indicator of evil.
What else we have seen in the comic points only to evil durkon. His armor turning black is a clear indicator of alignment shift in the comic so far. (and dont start any crap about V not actually changing alignment, because what she did in that state was definetely on the path to evil, whether anything actually stuck or not).
Yelling about craving the blood of the living instead of being confused by his new creature type and position as a thrall, also seems an indicator that he is not just turning into sparkly Durkon, and is in fact a monster.

Wow. I think you pretty much just ignored the entirety of my argument. As of yet, no one has said anything about Durkon being his old self, or being a good-aligned vampire. The argument is that Durkon, even as an evil vampire, can still be a beneficial, polite, and useful member to the Order. No, Durkon is not going to just pop back to his old self.

Besides, the entire point of Durkon's position as a THRALL is that he doesn't have any kind of free will. Right now, he is acting akin to one of Tsukiko's wights; Nothing but a mind-controlled tool. No one here has suggested that this will all just blow over, hunky-dory, like nothing ever happened.

On the point of color change: when V changed to Darth V, he had already shown himself to be on the path to evil. Remember Daimyo Kubota? V killed him on a simple THEORY that he was a villain who was deserving of death. V had no idea what crime he had committed, just got lucky that Kubota was such a bastard. What would have happened if Elan had tied up a common thief who enjoyed prattling as much as Kubota did? I hardly think V would have changed his actions either way, because he killed him because he didn't want another court scene. The Giant has stated that V is True Neutral, and so even before he became "Darth V," he was acting villainous. And even then, the only thing evil that Darth V did was Familicide. Being an arrogant ass to everyone around you isn't evil at all. Familicide was given to V because the Directors attached an Epic Level Necromancer to V, and as was already shown during the scenes on the Azurite ships, V already had a disposition to blast first and ask questions later. The actions V committed under the effects of the soul bind were, in reality, completely in line with the elf's actions up to that point. Nothing was out of the ordinary, he just had access to much more powerful spells.

I'm sorry if this comes off as overtly-aggressive, but it just bother me that you would ignore the argument presented above.



Malacks plan of having an "equal" does suggest giving him free will, but it is an incredibly stupid plan if it just means Durkon going back to being himself. He will attack Malack right away, despite the odds, as he has already shown he will do. Even if Malack has some kind of system in line to keep him in check, he will simply destroy himself as the second best thing, since he is everything he hates.
If Malack does not have the knowledge (from first hand experience) that Durkon will default to Darth Durkon as a vampire, there is no chance he will ever have the colleague he desires.

As I mentioned, twice now, the reason Durkon is "yelling for blood" is due to his thralldom. As of right now, he DOESN'T have control or free will. Furthermore, it seems odd that Malack's colleague would turn out to be nothing more than a blood-crazed animal. If, when he releases Durkon, the dwarf doesn't return to at least some semblance of his older self, there will have been no point at all. Malack originally befriended Durkon, after all. If the old Durkon is gone, then Malack will have converted him for nothing. The being that he shared so many interests with will be gone. Thus I believe at least fragments of Durkon will remain behind in the vampiric one. Otherwise, Malack's plan would be quite "stupid" indeed.

[angrymudcrab]

I'm not so sure of him returning to the OoTS, at least not as a vampire. I think the "hunger for blood" is caused by thralldom, but only as a kind of low fuel warning light for his master. It is quite possible that had Malack suddenly died after vamping Durkon that he would have simply eaten Belkar completely. Such behaviour is not unusual and vampires eating their friends/families after being turned is a common thing in vampire stories. At present we have no way of knowing how much of the original personality is intact in OoTS vampirism. We know Malack as he is today, but we have only seen vampire Malack, not living shaman Malack for comparison. The rules seem rather vague, only saying that vampires are always evil, but the Giant doesn't really follow the alignment rules, so that doesn't tell us much.

Is it possible? Certainly, but it would pose some problems. For one thing, it would restrict Durkon's movements to night time, since he doesn't know the sun block spell Malack uses. It is also possible that he will be excommunicated for being a vampire, which means he will have to find a new god to work for, possibly Nergal or maybe Loki. Then there is the food problem. If he stays aligned with Malack/Tarquin, he has access an all you can eat buffet. If he is with the OoTS, he won't have access to that, and he will have to be friends with happy meals on legs, all while going mad from hunger. People don't behave well when they have no food, things like riots and revolutions happen. With access to a steady blood supply, Durkon can probably be quite civilized and refined like Malack. Without it, things have the potential to get ugly. I can see Tarquin's party not caring if you eat random people, but the OoTS will have some serious moral problems and not permit it.

This is speculation, but I suspect that vampirism turns off or maybe makes it harder to access the part of the brain that makes goodness possible. So the memories and personality will remain intact, but unrestrained or less restrained by one's living morality. Maybe what we will see is that the feelings buried in the deep part of his soul and never spoken about (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) will become a more prominent driving force.

[Leirus]

It would be incredibly anti-climatic to have this massive transformation of the character not even make it out of the pyramid. I think we can safely assume that he's going to stick around for a little bit at least.

Oh, I did not mean that he would get resurrected, just unthralled. I would be interested in seeing vampire Durkon working with the order.

[Morquard]

Well I think the big question is:
Is this Durkon's soul in charge of the vampire, just twisted and driven to evil? Or is Durkon's soul actually in the afterlife now, and whatever controls Vampire Durkon may have his memories but is in fact some evil spirit or something like that.

If it's the second one, then I see no reason why Durkon would join up again with the OotS. If its the first one, then maybe. Big maybe. Certainly not right away.

[SaintRidley]

Well I think the big question is:
Is this Durkon's soul in charge of the vampire, just twisted and driven to evil? Or is Durkon's soul actually in the afterlife now, and whatever controls Vampire Durkon may have his memories but is in fact some evil spirit or something like that.

If it's the second one, then I see no reason why Durkon would join up again with the OotS. If its the first one, then maybe. Big maybe. Certainly not right away.

Methinks it can't very well result in character development if its not the first.

[Leirus]

Yup, the evil spirit thing does not seem to fit the character driven stories the Giant usually gives us.

I have re-read the whole arc looking for clues and tips, and the only one I found is that Malack says to Durkon that if he got his free will back he would feel confused, which I understand as a sign that he is indeed the same person.

(So I could see a confused vampire Durkon tagging along with the Order, who would somehow transport him to Kraagor's gate in the Dwarven lands in order to have him resurrected. At that point he goes evil and has to be confronted. Castles in the sky, I know).

[Torrasque]

I'm going out on a limb here, but it is my personal opinion that Durkon (once released from being a thrall) will "feel more like himself," to put it in the master vamp's own words. I'm hopeful that Durkon will more or less return to his "old self" once he is freed, to an extent.





Wow. I think you pretty much just ignored the entirety of my argument. As of yet, no one has said anything about Durkon being his old self, or being a good-aligned vampire. The argument is that Durkon, even as an evil vampire, can still be a beneficial, polite, and useful member to the Order. No, Durkon is not going to just pop back to his old self.


... I think im just gonna stay away from this discussion.

[Quild]

Shouldn't we consider that vampire-Durkon is to Durkon what golem-Roy was to Roy?

[Kish]

No. Vampires are sapient, golems are not.

[Morquard]

Yup, the evil spirit thing does not seem to fit the character driven stories the Giant usually gives us.

I have re-read the whole arc looking for clues and tips, and the only one I found is that Malack says to Durkon that if he got his free will back he would feel confused, which I understand as a sign that he is indeed the same person.
Well there's also the comment that ressurecting Malack would result in the current person to stop existing and he at least implied that he'd be replaced by the living Malack persona from 200 years ago.
So if this was the same soul, wouldn't living-again-Malack have all the memories and experience of vampire-Malack, just not the evil outlook?

Of course this was maybe just a bluff by Malack who doesn't want to be destroyed.


(So I could see a confused vampire Durkon tagging along with the Order, who would somehow transport him to Kraagor's gate in the Dwarven lands in order to have him resurrected. At that point he goes evil and has to be confronted. Castles in the sky, I know).
Yes I thought about this too.
They kill Malack and Durkon, being in there, tries really hard to work with the order again. Control his urges and stuff. Use his powers for good.
But then at some point he loses control of it and bits and possibly kills someone innocent.

[Leirus]

Well there's also the comment that ressurecting Malack would result in the current person to stop existing and he at least implied that he'd be replaced by the living Malack persona from 200 years ago.
So if this was the same soul, wouldn't living-again-Malack have all the memories and experience of vampire-Malack, just not the evil outlook?

Of course this was maybe just a bluff by Malack who doesn't want to be destroyed.


Yes I thought about this too.
They kill Malack and Durkon, being in there, tries really hard to work with the order again. Control his urges and stuff. Use his powers for good.
But then at some point he loses control of it and bits and possibly kills someone innocent.

I understood the comment by Malack as meaning that resurrecting him would delete the last two hundred or so years of his (un)life, thus destroying the person he has become.

Also the comment that Durkon does not have a sarcophagus yet feels a bit like a tip... but yeah, that is pretty much the future scenario I had in mind. I am impatient!

[Olinser]

I understood the comment by Malack as meaning that resurrecting him would delete the last two hundred or so years of his (un)life, thus destroying the person he has become.

Also the comment that Durkon does not have a sarcophagus yet feels a bit like a tip... but yeah, that is pretty much the future scenario I had in mind. I am impatient!

Yes, I agree, it seems to me the most likely scenario is that regardless of what happens to Malack and the Linear Guild or Team Evil, the OOTS is going to kill Durkula. That leaves the vampire destroyed - and while YMMV on whether it would actually work or not, Durkon and Malack both believed that a Vampire could be Resurrected and returned to REAL life.

So it seems to me that the most likely avenue is that, since they are deep in unfriendly territory and have no cleric, they kill Durkon and bring his body back to his homelands (on the way to Kraagor's Gate) to be Resurrected. This fulfills BOTH prophecies of him returned posthumously, and Thor's High Priest's prophecy that he would bring death and destruction back to his homeland - if Team Evil decided to take a crack at them while they were there, Xykon isn't exactly known for his low collateral damage.

[SavageWombat]

Methinks it can't very well result in character development if its not the first.

Roy had character development while he was a soul in the afterlife. Durkon could too.

[Leirus]

Roy had character development while he was a soul in the afterlife. Durkon could too.

I find highly unlikely that we are following Vampire Durkon and Afterlife Durkon both. There are plenty of characters pinning for a little of attention as it is. But one never knows, I guess.

[SavageWombat]

I find highly unlikely that we are following Vampire Durkon and Afterlife Durkon both. There are plenty of characters pinning for a little of attention as it is. But one never knows, I guess.

I'll grant that. Depends on whether the LG go out of focus shortly hereafter.

I'm still in favor of the "Roy gives up and blows the gate" strategy at this point, possibly with Xykon vs. Tarquin skirmish for fun.

[Kish]

I do not believe a rift that was recently covered by a gate would count as a gate for the purposes of the Oracle's prophecy.

Accordingly, Roy cannot blow up the gate until Xykon is within a thousand feet of it.

[SavageWombat]

I do not believe a rift that was recently covered by a gate would count as a gate for the purposes of the Oracle's prophecy.

Accordingly, Roy cannot blow up the gate until Xykon is within a thousand feet of it.

Hadn't thought of that. I suspect I agree with your interpretation - it would be a "rift" without a gate to control it. That needn't stop Roy, though, since Xykon could appear literally any moment, storywise.

Think the ziggurat is a thousand feet in radius, as an estimate? We could use that as a guideline that we can't go boom until Xykon is "in the house".

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Well, Xykon knows the exact coordinates... For all we know, he might have been in the room with the gate for ten strips already.

Has anyone else noticed that Durkon's predicament messes up Elan's plan for Tarquin?

"How could this happen? I didn't even reveal what it was yet!"

[Silverionmox]

Well, Xykon knows the exact coordinates... For all we know, he might have been in the room with the gate for ten strips already.

Has anyone else noticed that Durkon's predicament messes up Elan's plan for Tarquin?

"How could this happen? I didn't even reveal what it was yet!"

Well, maybe all he needed was advice on how to use "neutralize poison" properly :p .