Limiting class selection.

[aphoticConniver]

I'm working on a very low-magic (literally, almost no magic, barring maneuvers) campaign, and I have the following classes allowed:


Factotum (contemplating removing the spellcasting, but maybe not)
Warblade
Swordsage
Crusader


I want to add 2 more classes, one for burst damage, and one for buffing, without really using magic. Homebrew is ok as long as it's not too silly. I was thinking some sort of alchemist, maybe lobbing chemical bombs and such?

[Gildedragon]

buffing sans magic: Marshal maybe?
Burst damage: barbarian? rogue?

[ngilop]

you can combined the Bard and the marshal for a good old 'buff' style character when you subtract bard spell casting.

[aphoticConniver]

You see I was going to keep the rogue in, but seeing as it's a mostly undead campaign... kind of neutered.

Also I love the idea of the marshal, and it fits right into my T3/T4 goal. For a burst/ranged damage character, I was thinking of reflavoring the warlock into some sort of tinkerer? Lobs bombs for Eldritch blast, builds contraptions for his spell things I cannot remember the name of?

[ngilop]

You can take a gander at the Pathfidner alchemist too and just crip teh extra non bombs stuff.

[Rhaegar14]

Except taking out the stuff Alchemists do that isn't bombs would bring them well below Tier 3, and probably even Tier 4.

Still, I do recommend a look at it: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist

[avr]

Undead-heavy campaign ... no magic .... you've got some other means of healing the many and various ways undead have of temporarily or permanently crippling characters, right?

If you're tinkering with mechanics, it wouldn't be hard to just allow the rogue to sneak attack undead, then you've got your burst damage guy. Maybe add in some substance they have to put on their weapons to allow them to do so.

[LTwerewolf]

There's always the ACF that allows rogues to sneak attack things immune to crits for half.

[Gildedragon]

There's an acf that replaces trap sense I believe that does just that (it haves SA damage though) edit: swordsaged.
Getting the weapons blessed at a holy site or made of special materials could also do you some good.

Allow holy water to be plentiful (let any sufficiently pious (N)PC be capable of performing a ritual to bless some water)

Look around for alchemical items that boost healing. There's some warpaint that gives fast healing.

[aphoticConniver]

Undead-heavy campaign ... no magic .... you've got some other means of healing the many and various ways undead have of temporarily or permanently crippling characters, right?

If you're tinkering with mechanics, it wouldn't be hard to just allow the rogue to sneak attack undead, then you've got your burst damage guy. Maybe add in some substance they have to put on their weapons to allow them to do so.

I'm letting them use Alchemy and Survival checks to brew potions and Holy Water, as well as survival checks to find Goodberry bushes. You see, everyone in this group is used to having it easy. 16th level characters, with nearly no concept of strategy. I want to change that. I want to scare them until they get that taking everything head-on is a terrible idea. I'm adding plants that reflect magic properties, and weapon/armor crystals do exist.

EDIT: Oh, and we normally have characters heal all HP after a night of rest. Not so for this campaign.

EDIT 2 ELECTRIC BUGALOO: I'm explaining away weapon crystals as special gems that resonate with a material used in the steel, which is called Buric steel, and slightly changes the properties of the weapon, such as giving it a high negative charge, or superheating it, or making it lighter.

[avr]

I wasn't thinking hit point damage so much as energy drain, ability drain, curses etc. Can't think of an undead with petrification but I'm sure there's one out there somewhere. None of these can be healed via non-magic means (well, lost levels can be healed by gaining new levels I guess). Your potions or magic plants would have to go as far as Restoration to help with such.

[aphoticConniver]

I would be willing to let them make specific potions for the more extreme conditions, definitely with a higher DC. But that's not something they'll encounter for a little while. I'm starting them off fighting my own zombies, modified to be more like nonmagical zombies.

[Gavinfoxx]

Choose things from here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174628

[ericgrau]

I would suggest keeping full magic items and wealth, or playing E6 or otherwise limiting the level. Medium to high level 3.5 pretty much depends on magic items for balance. Non-casters especially. Even without any casters it'll fall apart against many monsters. Even if you restrict the list of monsters to the dullest and most limited in special abilities you can, offense scales by class while defense scales by items. The PCs will be easily hit.

Hmm... maybe you could give everybody vow of poverty for free. That plus dull monsters with limited special abilities might work at higher levels. As mentioned no ability damage/drain undead, no negative levels, no anything else special offensively or defensively.

Marshall and/or bardic music is built pretty heavily for buffing. I'll agree with that except that Marshall is kinda dull. Including bard skills too could help. Fluff as some kind of leader or motivator, removing bard skills that don't match and adding a couple that do.

Rogue sounds right for sudden damage, but he might have trouble keeping up with ToB without some help. PF allows rogues to sneak attack all but oozes for being completely formless, so you could simply allow the same. Plus some other power boost to keep up. Maybe maneuvers in exchange for less skills, assuming you keep factotum.

[aphoticConniver]

Ok, so I've allowed Factotum, Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader, and Marshall/Bard (nix spellcasting), and all the players are excited. However, they don't know what's coming at them yet. Are there any tips you guys can give for scaring them to within an inch of their lives?

[Gildedragon]

The clearing they have set up camp in is a onetime graveyard. A zombie crawls out of the latrine they've dug as a result of them defiling its grave.

[aphoticConniver]

Oh! Another thing to note about the zombies and undead is that I'm doing them virus-style. Anyone who dies comes back. And, later on, I'll introduce more powerful undeads, similar to the BOWs and Special Infected. Well, a similar style, at any rate.

[Curmudgeon]

There's always the ACF that allows rogues to sneak attack things immune to crits for half.
You're probably thinking of Penetrating Strike, which requires flanking. For an undead-heavy campaign a better option is Death's Ruin (Complete Champion, page 51). That ACf only works against undead, but flanking isn't required.

[nedz]

Are there any tips you guys can give for scaring them to within an inch of their lives?

Make them play in an undead heavy campaign with neither spellcasting nor turning.:smalltongue:

[Komatik]

It's magic, but I think Binder would suit a lowish-magic grim aesthetic very well.

[Person_Man]

Well if Tier 3 homebrew is on the table, you may wish to take a look at my Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10326268), Magitech Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176276), and Vanguard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13098583). They've all have fairly extensive options, have been play tested and tweaked, and are really fun.

Also, it's worth mentioning that some Tome of Battle maneuvers and stances are supernatural. (And many that aren't supernatural are still pretty anime-ish - they're not really "mundane" low-fantasy by any stretch of the imagination - if that's what you're aiming for). So if you're going to allow them, you might as well allow other Tier 3 supernatural options, such as the Wildshape Ranger, Binder without online material, Totemist, Incarnate, etc.

You could also just hand wave away Precision Damage restrictions, or introduce them to the Skullclan Hunter PrC (Miniatures Handbook), which gets auto-Sneak Attack vs undead (You don't even have to qualify for Sneak Attack via flanking or whatnot, you just deal your Sneak Attack damage against them on every attack) and some decent immunities.

[Komatik]

I swear someone forgot the word "supernatural" exists when he was writing the Devoted Spirit maneuver descriptions.

[Mcdt2]

Choose things from here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174628

If you are looking for a buffing class, and like ToB, then there's a Marshal Homebrew on there that gets maneuvers

[aphoticConniver]

Make them play in an undead heavy campaign with neither spellcasting nor turning.:smalltongue:

Well, I mean the Factotum has a limited form of turning/spells... And as for the more extravagant maneuvers, I can put a more technological spin on it.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Are there any tips you guys can give for scaring them to within an inch of their lives?

Have you read SilverClawShift's First Tale (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116836)? It's a horror campaign.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I wasn't thinking hit point damage so much as energy drain, ability drain, curses etc. Can't think of an undead with petrification but I'm sure there's one out there somewhere. None of these can be healed via non-magic means (well, lost levels can be healed by gaining new levels I guess). Your potions or magic plants would have to go as far as Restoration to help with such.

Gravecrawler, from the MM...2? 3? It slowly calcifies you.

Scouts, Spell-less Rangers and Incarnum Classes (Totemist especially) might also be prime picks.

[Rubik]

Are there any tips you guys can give for scaring them to within an inch of their lives?Have the undead be unkillable unless they're destroyed with fire, acid (or holy water), or are disintegrated, such as by a high enough turning attempt. A zombie must have at least as much fire/acid/holy damage as their full hp total or they come back. Even hacking them to tiny bits doesn't work, because their parts start crawling toward each other and they reform within a minute or so of being hacked apart. Don't tell anyone why, but have the entire party make Spot checks after each battle (with an astronomically high DC at first, which gets lower the more zombies they kill) to see the hacked-apart flesh moving, and have one of their first forays be a typical crypt raid (with some descriptions of the newly dead zombies as people they know with easily discernible traits that the PCs [and players] will recognize). They can lock the door behind them to prevent anything from sneaking up on them, and they go through the crypt, "killing" the zombies of their families and whatnot as they go. Then, when they've cleared out a number of hallways and rooms, it's time for a Listen check, whereupon they can hear the moaning of zombies from the rooms they've already cleaned out. The zombies have reformed, and when the PCs see them, make sure to describe the "people" they've already encountered and destroyed. Have a trap that makes a loud noise that draws the entire crypt to them -- and now the party has to fight an entire shambling horde that just won't stay dead. The more they kill them the faster they reform, and the STRONGER they reform. It's a deathtrap, and now they have to escape!

[edit] Alternatively, have stats for smaller zombie parts, so if the barbarian hacks off an arm, it crawls up to his feet while he's fighting other things and tries to grab him to deal claw damage. Even bone shards act as caltrops and whatnot. A wave of zombified flesh trying to kill and consume them.

[Amphetryon]

Dragon Shaman seems worth a look here.

A lot of "scaring Players" has to do with atmosphere. Making seemingly normal things be slightly off, and generally messing with expectations within the mundane realm (in other words, not jerking them around on there abilities 'just because) can go a long way to keeping them on their toes and uncomfortable.

[Slipperychicken]

Let PF Rogue in. They get to sneak-attack undead.

[Answerer]

I swear someone forgot the word "supernatural" exists when he was writing the Devoted Spirit maneuver descriptions.
Not likely, since the maneuvers go out of their way to explain the healing in mundane/heroic terms rather than channeling positive energy. They also work equally well on undead as they do on living creatures.

[Komatik]

Not likely, since the maneuvers go out of their way to explain the healing in mundane/heroic terms rather than channeling positive energy. They also work equally well on undead as they do on living creatures.

Oh?

"You channel the power of good through your body and soul, infusing the area around you with a soft, golden radiance"

"A coruscating aura of purple energy surrounds you as chaos runs rampant in the area immediately around you"

"With a howling battle cry, your weapon crackles with energy. As you strike your foe, that energy detonates in a burst that scythes through those who stand against your cause... If you hit your opponent and his alignment has at least one component different from yours, a blast of divine energy originates..."

"You cloak yourself in a black, terrible aura of contempt and spite... In addition, if your charge attack hits and the target is good-aligned, you become wreathed in unholy energy..."

"The air around you hums with cosmic energy as the power of pure law surges through you. For a moment, you take on the aspect of a perfect being as you charge forward to smite your foes... you become wreathed in axiomatic energy..."

Need I go on? All effects very blatantly magical, but not one instance of the word supernatural written in there.

[Answerer]

Ok, I was thinking specifically of Martial Spirit and Crusader's Strike. *shrug*

I don't have a problem with (Ex) magic.