Spell save DCs

[Burpcycle]

I'm a level 13 wizard with 25 intelligence. My seventh level spell DCs are only 24, which anyone at this level could easily pass. Is this unusually low?

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm a level 13 wizard with 25 intelligence. My seventh level spell DCs are only 24, which anyone at this level could easily pass. Is this unusually low?

"Unusually low" doesn't really apply. Spell DCs follow a formula: 10+spell level+key ability modifier+other bonuses. Without other bonuses, every wizard with Int 25 will have DC 24 for 7th level spells.

Consider Spell Focus with the school of magic that you use the most, if you find that some of the feats that you have right now aren't needed or could be better.

I think that the best thing to do is find ways to penalize saves (Mind Fog, Stinking Cloud, etc) or to use spells that don't require saves.

[Krobar]

This is kind of a subjective question, based on the game. In our games we don't really optimize too much, so no. That's pretty much a normal save DC for your level.

I tend to take spells with either no save, or save and still have a problem, so I don't have to worry about it so much.

[Psyren]

1) Target weak saves
2) If those are failing, use no-save spells

Summons are good in any fight. To quote Treantmonk, "every time an enemy his a summoned monster instead of a party member, you win."

[Urpriest]

Int 25 at 13th level is ok. I'm assuming you have a +4 Headband of Intellect, and started at Int 18?

Here's something to think about: DC 24 is fairly easy to pass for a 13th level Wizard (+9 base will save, plus a cloak of resistance...though note you're still winning about 50% of the time without further save-boosting), but it's much harder for a 13th level Fighter (+4 base will save, even with a +5 cloak that's +9, the guy needs 15 or better to pass). Remember to always target your enemy's weak save. If you're fighting Wizards or Fey, target Fort. For Undead and Constructs, Reflex. For Fighters or big bruiser types, Will. That should help you out a lot.

[Burpcycle]

Int 25 at 13th level is ok. I'm assuming you have a +4 Headband of Intellect, and started at Int 18?

Here's something to think about: DC 24 is fairly easy to pass for a 13th level Wizard (+9 base will save, plus a cloak of resistance...though note you're still winning about 50% of the time without further save-boosting), but it's much harder for a 13th level Fighter (+4 base will save, even with a +5 cloak that's +9, the guy needs 15 or better to pass). Remember to always target your enemy's weak save. If you're fighting Wizards or Fey, target Fort. For Undead and Constructs, Reflex. For Fighters or big bruiser types, Will. That should help you out a lot.

You are correct about my stats. I wanted to play a race with +int, but because my character is related to my previous, dead character, I had to be a human (not that I mind the bonus feat). My concern is that even I could easily make those saves, and I did not specialize in saving throws. My BBEG and his lieutenants will never have to worry about my saving throw spells unless I can lower their saves in some way (I have multiple ways to deal with SR). I want to take advantage of disintegrate, but yeah, there you go.

[Urpriest]

You are correct about my stats. I wanted to play a race with +int, but because my character is related to my previous, dead character, I had to be a human (not that I mind the bonus feat). My concern is that even I could easily make those saves, and I did not specialize in saving throws. My BBEG and his lieutenants will never have to worry about my saving throw spells unless I can lower their saves in some way (I have multiple ways to deal with SR). I want to take advantage of disintegrate, but yeah, there you go.

Yeah, Disintegrate is tricky, being single-target. You really want to focus that one on Undead and Constructs, and even then on the low-HD ones. The BBEG is a bad target for anything save-based unless you manage to layer a few no-save debuffs on first. In general saves are best if you've got multiple foes.

[navar100]

If your spells never seem to affect the bad guys, the problem is not your DC. The problem is the DM not letting you play with your toys. Not every monster needs to save on a Natural 5.

[Chilingsworth]

Kelore's Gravemist
Cloudkill
Wall of X spells
Black Tentecles
Orb Spells
Phantasmal Assailants.
Greater Anticipate Teleportation

Those are all spells that either don't allow saves, or still have a nasty effect on a successful save.

[Story]

Don't forget Web.

[Chilingsworth]

Don't forget Web.

d'oh! Yeah.

I suppose grease might still count at this level. If nothing else, it can help counteract grapplers alittle.

[Bakkan]

My concern is that even I could easily make those saves, and I did not specialize in saving throws.

I'm wondering two things: first, what you mean by "easily make", and based on this, what your stats are.

As a level 13 Wizard, you have base saves of +4/+4/+8. Assuming a +5 cloak of resistance (not unreasonable at this level), you have +9/+9/+13. In order to have a greater than 50% chance of making the save (what I would consider "easily making" the save), you need to have a +14 modifier (so as to succeed on a 10). If you have no other save boosting effects, you need a 20 Consitution, a 20 Dexterity, and a 12 Intelligene. Obviously the Intelligence is no problem, but are your other stats really that high? Even if they are, note that most enemies, barring BBEGs, will have neither stats like that nor +5 loaks of resistance, so as long as you target a weak save your spells should have full effect at least 50% of the time.

However, to maximize effectiveness, you should have spells that target each save and have effects on a successful save prepared all the time. You should also have spells that require only a ranged touch attack, to use against enemies who have all high saves, such as many BBEGs. If you till aren't able to affect your enemies as reliably as you like, switch it up and prepare some party buff spells. Most DMs are happier with the Fighter being 50% more effective because of the Wizard's buffs than with their BBEG being 50% less effective because of the Wizard's debuffs.

[Burpcycle]

I'm wondering two things: first, what you mean by "easily make", and based on this, what your stats are.

As a level 13 Wizard, you have base saves of +4/+4/+8. Assuming a +5 cloak of resistance (not unreasonable at this level), you have +9/+9/+13. In order to have a greater than 50% chance of making the save (what I would consider "easily making" the save), you need to have a +14 modifier (so as to succeed on a 10). If you have no other save boosting effects, you need a 20 Consitution, a 20 Dexterity, and a 12 Intelligene. Obviously the Intelligence is no problem, but are your other stats really that high? Even if they are, note that most enemies, barring BBEGs, will have neither stats like that nor +5 loaks of resistance, so as long as you target a weak save your spells should have full effect at least 50% of the time.

However, to maximize effectiveness, you should have spells that target each save and have effects on a successful save prepared all the time. You should also have spells that require only a ranged touch attack, to use against enemies who have all high saves, such as many BBEGs. If you till aren't able to affect your enemies as reliably as you like, switch it up and prepare some party buff spells. Most DMs are happier with the Fighter being 50% more effective because of the Wizard's buffs than with their BBEG being 50% less effective because of the Wizard's debuffs.

Fort +13, Reflex +12, Will +16. I also have an item that lets me use concentration in place of fortitude once per day, and glimpse peril, which lets me add +2 to saving throws as an immediate action. I have the worst saving throws in the party (a factotum/iaijutsu master, whose saving throws are technically worse than mine but he has IP, a paladin/sorcerer/abjchamp, and a druid) - I'm sure all of the significant villains have far better saves than I've got.

[Killer Angel]

I think that the best thing to do is find ways to penalize saves (Mind Fog, Stinking Cloud, etc) or to use spells that don't require saves.

Is mind fog even worth considering?
Sure, creatures caught in, take a -10 competence penalty on Will saves... but this effect is negated by a Will save.
If you're going to fail the save Vs mind fog, you would have failed also against the other will-based spell I'm going to cast.
Yeah, the fog is stationary and lasts for 30 minutes and every creature passing by must save, yadda yadda, but is pretty situational (for example, you must defend a choke point), not a standard tactic.

[TuggyNE]

Is mind fog even worth considering?

Probably not. </shamelessplug>

[Killer Angel]

Probably not. </shamelessplug>

I was sure that someone already covered the issue. :smallbiggrin: