Hidden rolls RAW ? 3.5/PF

[Stome]

Alright this is about DM/GM hidden rolls. This is not if they are good or bad (I don't care one way or the other.) but are they RAW? Is it mentioned anywhere in 3.5 or pathfinder books?

If you would like to know it came up when trying to use of reroll abilities. More to the point "Creature rerolls before the results and takes the 2nd roll"

Now clearly these do not function with hidden rolls and that leads me to believe that the system does not assume hidden rolls. I looked though my books and also could not find any mention of it but I wanted to check before I say something and make a fool of myself.

Now before someone jumps down my throat I in no way plan to say to the DM "your doing it wrong" as I have no problem with rolling behind the screen I just need to work out a way to make these things function.

[Carth]

There incidences where rolls are specifically called out as secret, such as the augury spell, and other divination spells. I'm not aware of general guidelines for secret rolls.

[Darius Kane]

It's up to the DM. Also, some rolls are intended to be done in secret, for example an enemy that is hiding (if the DM would roll the enemy's Hide check and your Spot check in open it would tip off the players that's something going on).

[Stome]

It's up to the DM. Also, some rolls are intended to be done in secret, for example an enemy that is hiding (if the DM would roll the enemy's Hide check and your Spot check in open it would tip off the players that's something going on).

Alright I should have been more precise. For general rolling is it ever stated in RAW? Or only in select cases? "Its up to the GM" is honestly not helpful as everything is up to the GM, Rule 0 and all that.

The reason the RAW of it is important is these abilities ether do not amuse hidden rolls as its not RAW and work. Or they just flat don;t function as written.

I think the first is likely it and that is awkward. Not because I don't like hidden rolls but because making it work is going to be a pain.

[Darius Kane]

No, it isn't. A DM can roll however he likes.

[Stome]

No, it isn't. A DM can roll however he likes.


Maybe I am reading to much into this but that feels a lot like a jab at me. I never said a DM couldn't. Nor do I mind one way other the other. But clearly these abilities (like duel-cured oracle misfortune) had been written under the assumption that rolls are not hidden. (Not really surprising. They should write their stuff to work with their RAW. To not would be silly.)

So that brings us to how to make these things function when rolls are not shown?

[Thurbane]

Re-roll abilities shouldn't be affected one way or the other if the DM is rolling secretly or in the open, unless the DM is fudging rolls.

In answer to your question, I think the rules are silent as to whether DM rolls are meant to be in the open or hidden, with the notable exception of skill checks (or other checks) where it it spelled out that the DM should roll in secret (i.e. Sense Motive, Search, Decipher Script, Appraise etc.) where the player might receive wrong information on a botched roll.

In our group, it depends who's DMing. Most roll in the open, but one prefers rolling behind the screen.

[Curmudgeon]

I generally don't do any rolling when I DM. Instead I've got pre-rolled lists of die totals on various pieces of paper, and I just use the next number and cross it off the list. For known modifiers for particular creatures (attacks, Spot and Listen checks, & c.) those are already added in, and I don't have to spend time adding and subtracting. Otherwise I just go to one of the generic d20/d6/d%/whatever random number sheets and use that.

[Killer Angel]

Alright I should have been more precise. For general rolling is it ever stated in RAW? Or only in select cases?

Yep, there are cases where it is explicitly stated by raw (example, the forgery skill: "The Forgery check is made secretly, so that you’re not sure how good your forgery is".), but as a general rule? i don't think there is.

[Stome]

The problem is it does have an effect. These abilities clearly are meant to help save you from something bad.

Being used after the d20 is rolled and before the results are figured clearly means one would have to know when it is rolled and if it is likely to hit you or not. Because just randomly forcing a reroll when you don't know if they say rolled a one is not misfortune its the player helping the monster and that clearly is not the intent or the RAW for that matter.

Helping the user of the ability with a "OMG that axe to the face is going to hurt." Moment is what this is supposed to do and making that work is tricky with hidden rolls.

[Darius Kane]

Can you give an example of an ability/feat that you are talking about?
If an ability or feat gives you the option to re-roll a DMs roll (for example a monster's attack on your PC) then the DM can't keep that particular roll secret because it messes with your ability. But it depends if the ability/feat states that you can use it after the roll was made. If it states that then obviously your use of the ability/feat is dependent on you knowing what was rolled and thus the roll can't be secret, otherwise the feat would be useless. If the ability can't be used after the DM's roll and you have to use it before it then it's probably something like "DM rolls two times and has to take the worse result" in which case he can rol it in secret because you don't need to know the roll.

[Stome]

Can you give an example of an ability/feat that you are talking about?

I did a couple post up but to be more clear its the Dual-Cursed Oracle

Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day.

Now unlike some other abilities that force rerolls this one is not "takes the worse of the two" this is takes the 2nd. Making it unusable if you don't at least know roughly if they rolled well or poorly.

[Darius Kane]

Well, in this case you either don't pick rolls that were rolled in secret, risk using the ability without knowing the roll, or your DM has to tell you the result when you choose to use the ability. I would go with option 3 if I were the DM who rolls secretly.
I don't agree it makes it unusable. It makes its use limited to what you know, at worst.

[Stome]

Since by RAW only certain rolls are hidden then clearly this was interned to be used when you think it might save your butt (Do I know that 15 will hit? No but it might and that's bad.)

But in no way do I want to go to my DM with "Hey I want to see dem rolls" Because well its rude and I also don't want him to think I don't trust his rolling because I do. I get along great with my DM.

I think maybe asking him if he will tell me if they roll over a threshold (15 perhaps.) That is about the only thing I can come up with other then asking him to fully change his style. Which is silly.

[Darius Kane]

But in no way do I want to go to my DM with "Hey I want to see dem rolls" Because well its rude and I also don't want him to think I don't trust his rolling because I do. I get along great with my DM.
There's nothing rude about using your abilities. If your ability depends on the roll then you should know it. And why would your DM take it as rude if you get along with him so great? It's more than reasonable to ask for a roll result if your ability needs it.

[Stome]

There's nothing rude about using your abilities. If your ability depends on the roll then you should know it. And why would your DM take it as rude if you get along with him so great? It's more than reasonable to ask for a roll result if your ability needs it.


Well he is a bit on the old school side (not meant as a bad thing.) and until now thought rolling behind the screen was RAW (I am not sure if it ever was TBH but am not going to press the matter.)

But yeah you are right he likely won't take as much offense to it as I fear he might. Anyway thanks for helping me confirm and all guys.

[Bakkan]

That is a weird "misfortune". If my character had that ability I would probably never use it on my enemies and always use it on my allies or myself when we roll poorly.

[Stome]

That is a weird "misfortune". If my character had that ability I would probably never use it on my enemies and always use it on my allies or myself when we roll poorly.

You can do both as the only limit on it is once per creature per day. Much like witch hexes. (though this is fundamentally different from hex of the same name.)

[hymer]

Page 5 of my PHB:


Players should roll dice openly so that everyone can see the results. The DM may make some rolls in secret to build suspense and maintain mystery.

So it seems the standard assumption is that DM's also roll openly, but may make exceptions for specific reasons.

[Stome]

Page 5 of my PHB:



So it seems the standard assumption is that DM's also roll openly, but may make exceptions for specific reasons.

Thank you very much for your help. I looked through that book front to back and did not see that option there.