Just a Warlock and his wife.

[Cranthis]

So, I know that you guys are probably all sick of my gestalt build questions, but here goes.

So I have a level 6 gestalt game coming up, and I intend to be Warlock//Fighter.

I have the spellwarped template, on the fighter side of course.
I know what my general feats are gonna be (The standard fey heritage feats), but what I need help with is the fighter bonus feats, as well as what to do after the 4th level of fighter. No ToB, so says dm.

Build so far: Warlock 6//Fighter 3 (Due to the 3 level adjustment of spellwarped).
Stats are: str: 19, dex: 16, con:19, int: 12, wis: 10, cha: 18.

I am probably going to be Glaivelocking. I will also be building him a synergetic cohort for him, but that can be done later. Although suggestions for the cohort are accepted.

Edit: Also, regular feats are done in the pathfinder style of every odd level, though the game is 3.5

[nedz]

So basically you have two fighter feats to spend, and possibly a spare general feat.

Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are common choices — but they're quite dull.

Can you use Power Attack with a Glaive ? I'm not sure ?

Can you use Weapon Finesse ?

Improved Initiative and Improved Toughness are default options.

Combat Reflexes are a thing, but how is your Dex ?

Intimidating Strike (PH2) is a free debuff, but it's a standard action — so no iteratives.

[NilsRichter]

Can you use Power Attack with a Glaive ? I'm not sure ?

Can you use Weapon Finesse ?

No to Power Attack, yes to Weapon Finesse.

And since Str does not help with Glaive damage, I do not see a reason for high Str, just put it all into Dex and take Weapon Finesse.

[Cranthis]

No to Power Attack, yes to Weapon Finesse.

And since Str does not help with Glaive damage, I do not see a reason for high Str, just put it all into Dex and take Weapon Finesse.

Agreed, its been changed. Also, the build has changed abit. I'm going to be going with: Warlock 6// Fighter 2/ Binder 1, and I'll probably continue with binder.

[nedz]

OK — Fighter 3 was pointless featless anyway.

Chameleon 2 is pretty good for Warlocks: the floating feat is all kinds of awesome.

If all you are taking Fighter 2 for is two feats and full BAB consider the following build instead :-

Spellwarped / Half-Fey / Binder 1 // Warlock 6
Half-Fey is better than the Fey heritage feats and covers the same ground, with more options — also flight. This frees up your general feats.

So you are:

One feat up
Have General feats to burn instead of Fighter ones
Have better stats
Have a bucket full of scaling SLAs
Have flight
Lose 1 BAB

[Person_Man]

Since your Invocations are your most useful ability, and you've got Feats to spare from Fighter, I would take the Extra Invocation Feat as many times as possible. (Although at level 6, I think that may only be once).

Also, the Fighter has some nifty alternate class features. Have you considered Dungeoncrasher for massive Bull Rush damage, and/or trading out your Tower Shield for an Exotic Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630) (Races of Stone)?

Also, is Tome of Magic and/or Magic of Incarnum on the table? There are a lot of options within them that could improve your build, even if you're not willing to consider Binder, Incarnate, or Totemist.

[nedz]

Since your Invocations are your most useful ability, and you've got Feats to spare from Fighter, I would take the Extra Invocation Feat as many times as possible. (Although at level 6, I think that may only be once).

This is very true, though Quicken SLA also has it's place (available after Warlock 10).
The Heritage feats are OK, but more invocations are better.

[Kane0]

You don't want to go rogue for sneak attack and skill synergy?
If I was gesalting, I'd be doing a Warlock/Rogue. If only for getting to roll all those d6s :smallamused:

Anyway, you might want to hold off for a while until you get lesser invocations before going with fighter for your feats, that way you can get extra invocation and stuff.

[Snowbluff]

No to Power Attack, yes to Weapon Finesse.

And since Str does not help with Glaive damage, I do not see a reason for high Str, just put it all into Dex and take Weapon Finesse.

Yes to power attack, by RAW.

Power Attack does not specify weapon use except in the case of using a 2H weapon.

Since Glaive is a Touch attach, you can dump a few BaB if you feel like it. :smalltongue:

[Alienist]

Yes to power attack, by RAW.

Power Attack does not specify weapon use except in the case of using a 2H weapon.

Since Glaive is a Touch attach, you can dump a few BaB if you feel like it. :smalltongue:

You say "by RAW" as if that means anything.

(As you read this post, feel free to imagine me yelling out "By Crom!" Conan style each time you read those words, I know I do)

In fact, it's pretty easy to infer that what is actually meant most of the time that people say BY RAW is that it doesn't say that you can, but it doesn't say that you can't either.

BY RAW I could just as easily argue (were I so inclined to do so) that [melee attack] and [melee damage] are different beasts from [touch attack] and [touch damage]

BY RAW I would have better support for my argument, the rules do make a clear distinction between [touch] attacks and other kind of attacks.

Also there is the fact that BY RAW the feat does mention weapons. That demonstrates CLEAR INTENT.

So let's say we have two potential BY RAW interpretations. One of them has context and CLEAR INTENT that supports it, the other one is based on "well it doesn't say that you can't". Which is the better interpretation?

One makes sense linguistically and logically. You don't add strength to the damage of [touch] attacks, so how does strength and power have anything to do with it? One interpretation is logical, the other is laughable. Which is the better interpretation?

Last, but not least, on the BY RAW thing, the whole idea of "well it doesn't say you can't" is classic rules lawyering, but it is totally specious. The rules of the game are set up in such a way as to lay out the things that you CAN do. Not the things that you CAN'T do. If the game doesn't give you permission to do something, then you can't do it.

-----------

Personally, I don't care. If it was an underpowered character with a cool concept, and I was the DM, then I'd allow it. If someone else with an already powerful character came along and started trying to abuse it, I'd take it away from both of them.

[Cranthis]

Since your Invocations are your most useful ability, and you've got Feats to spare from Fighter, I would take the Extra Invocation Feat as many times as possible. (Although at level 6, I think that may only be once).

Also, the Fighter has some nifty alternate class features. Have you considered Dungeoncrasher for massive Bull Rush damage, and/or trading out your Tower Shield for an Exotic Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630) (Races of Stone)?

Also, is Tome of Magic and/or Magic of Incarnum on the table? There are a lot of options within them that could improve your build, even if you're not willing to consider Binder, Incarnate, or Totemist.

Oh god. I think I just fainted from you just talking to me. But yes, ToM is available, and so is Incarnum.
I will be using extra invocation out the wazoo. Remember, in this game we are getting feats at every odd level, pathfinder style (Its still 3.5 though)
What do you recommend as far as the rest of it? I was simply going to continue with binder.

You don't want to go rogue for sneak attack and skill synergy?
If I was gesalting, I'd be doing a Warlock/Rogue. If only for getting to roll all those d6s :smallamused:

Anyway, you might want to hold off for a while until you get lesser invocations before going with fighter for your feats, that way you can get extra invocation and stuff.

D6's out the wazoo!

[Snowbluff]

Also there is the fact that BY RAW the feat does mention weapons. That demonstrates CLEAR INTENT.

So let's say we have two potential BY RAW interpretations. One of them has context and CLEAR INTENT that supports it, the other one is based on "well it doesn't say that you can't". Which is the better interpretation?


You can't assume intent with validity.

Since that is the case, we can only give RAW as valid advice.

:smallsmile:

For future levels, I would suggest some Quicken SLA.

Binder works pretty well with Warlock. It gives you a flexible list of abilities and something to do while grappled. I like Tenebrous and Malphas in particular.

[Cranthis]

For future levels, I would suggest some Quicken SLA.

Binder works pretty well with Warlock. It gives you a flexible list of abilities and something to do while grappled. I like Tenebrous and Malphas in particular.

Possibly. Now I just need to plan around when to take Improved Binding, Quicken sla, and exta invocation.

[Person_Man]

But yes, ToM is available, and so is Incarnum.
I will be using extra invocation out the wazoo. What do you recommend as far as the rest of it?

Binder is noteworthy for access to the Naberius vestige at first level.
It's Faster Healing ability heals ability damage every round, which allows you to abuse Hellfire Warlock, the Festering Anger disease (Book of Vile Darkness), and Vile feats (Elder Evils - some of which are very potent). The vestige also gives you impressive Bluff, Diplomacy, and Disguise benefits, which synergize nicely with Warlock. Or if you just want the impressive Bluuf/Diplo, you can access them with the Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder Feats.

Shadowcaster 5 is also noteworthy for having access to the Flicker mystery, which allows Immediate Action movement once per round, which opens up some cool attack of opportunity combos. Normally Shadowcaster (like the Warlock) is considered a sub-par caster, but it's worth considering for gestalt.

Everything in Magic of Incarnum that's not the Totem, Heart, or Soul chakra binds can be accessed via the Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra Feats. (Incarnate or Totemist is also a great idea for any gestalt build, but learning the Incarnum rules can be a hassle). Notable low level options include Strongheart Vest (reduces ability damage, allowing for the same Hellfire Warlock etc shenanigans that Naberius grants), Necrocarnum Circlet bound to Crown chakra (infinitely replaceable necrocarnum zombie), Shedu Crown bound to Crown chakra (immunity to Bull Rush plus Telepathy), Impulse Boots bound to Feet chakra (Uncanny Dodge and Evasion), Thunderstep Boots bound to Feet chakra (bonus damage and Save or Stun on Charge attacks), and a dozen or so ways to add natural attacks.


Hope this helps.

[Cranthis]

Exactly. I can continue binder till I hit 8, then take knight of the sacred seal.

And thank you, it does help. Alot.