Durkon, Thor, and Hel?

[7RED7]

The arguments between Thor and Hel over death in battle vs death by whatever else have been foreshadowed pretty heavily. Does any aspect of the vampiric death give Hel a case for Durkon's soul? Will we see Durkon standing between them any time soon? If so, will Durkon have any choice words regarding Thor's refusal to "pick up the phone"?

[Finagle]

Yeah, I think it would be suitably epic for Durkula to become the first priest of Hel and go back to dwarven lands bearing death and destruction. It fits with Malack, it fits the prophecy, Durkula will rage against Thor for not being there in his hour of need, all that's missing is an army of undead to do the actual killing.

[King of Nowhere]

The way I understand it, Durkon's soul is still attached to his body, even if his body is technically dead.

[Winter]

The way I understand it, Durkon's soul is still attached to his body, even if his body is technically dead.

Yes, I think it works like that as well. If you are a higher (?) undead, your soul does not even knock on the gates of the afterlife.
On the other hand, from a narrative point of view, having them argue over Vampire-Durkon (and then Durkon having to switch) is probably more interesting.

How would he react if Thor just dropped him from this second to the other and he suddenly has to work for Hel? He was pretty much a Thor-guy. I think the version where we do find out is the more interesting one.

[Roland Itiative]

There is absolutely no case for Hel getting Durkon's soul. He died fighting a vampire, a honourable death by the standards of the Norse Northern pantheon. Hel only gets the dwarves that die of diseases, of which Durkon had none.

[Finn Solomon]

Vampirism is a disease, isn't it?

It'd be pretty funny for Thor to argue so vehemently for the soul of someone who died fighting a tree, then refuse to take Durkon because he's an icky vampire now.

Then it'd swing right back into tragic as Durkon is denied by the very god he served faithfully all his long life.

[Malak'ai]

Being infected/turned/what ever by a Vampire seems, to me at least, to be one of the worst "diseases" you could ever contract.

You have to remember, Hel is a hell of a lot smarter than Thor so she could argue that Malak infected Durkon before the moment of death, allowing him to be made a vamp. Which would make the Durkster hers, OR, taking King and Winter's theory (haven't bothered looking into it myself), she could claim that because his soul has not left the body he technically isn't dead but is still infected, giving her rights over him in the afterlife (if he ever gets there).

[Fish]

Durkon should be a priest of Banjo.

...What?

[Kish]

No, vampirism is not a disease. Durkon died unambiguously in battle, his constitution drained away by a bloodsucking corpse. Then, after his death, he became one of the living dead himself.

If Hel argued that Durkon counts as "currently infected by a disease" because his soul never left his body...that still runs into the fact that this "disease" will not kill Durkon and will, in fact, extend his "life" expectancy to eternity unless he gets killed by something else. That is, in battle. Hel gets those who die of (non-alcohol-related) diseases, not those who ever in their lives had diseases ("She had a cold when she was twenty! She's mine!"). Heads Thor wins, tails Hel loses, here.

[Themrys]

Durkon should start worshipping Hel. Actually, that would make a lot of sense.
She hasn't shown any evilness up to now, so she might well be neutral, and since she's smarter than Thor, Vampire!Durkon could be a more effective cleric.

Also, since "no one worships her", she'd have a lot of time to spend on her only cleric.

[Fish]

"No one" worships her, says Durkon. He may not be telling the literal unvarnished truth, just his version of it. She may have worshipers, for all we know, just not many (probably).

[Psyren]

I actually do hope Durkula becomes a priest of Hel. Would serve Thor right for not keeping an eye on what has to be one of his strongest priests in the world.

Plus, I reaaaaally want "HEL'S MIGHT!!!" to be a thing.

While I do think the "died of disease" argument is pretty weak (he was fighting till the end), a voluntary conversion isn't out of the question.



Also, since "no one worships her", she'd have a lot of time to spend on her only cleric.

And thanks to Rule of Two/LoCoN (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu), he'd automatically kick the asses of any other jedi dwarven clerics he comes across. Which the prophecy seems to imply he'll do; he wouldn't be such a dangerous element if they were able to, say, turn him left and right.

[Kish]

And thanks to Rule of Two/LoCoN (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu), he'd automatically kick the asses of any other jedi dwarven clerics he comes across. Which the prophecy seems to imply he'll do; he wouldn't be such a dangerous element if they were able to, say, turn him left and right.
By the letter of the rules right now, Durkon is a more powerful cleric than most clerics ever get--quite possibly the second most powerful cleric in the world where he exists (he already eclipses his master, whether said master has enough overvalued monster levels to have a higher CR or not)--who can bolster himself and, unless he rolls really badly, become immune to even Redcloak's rebuke ability by so doing.

[Chantelune]

There is absolutely no case for Hel getting Durkon's soul. He died fighting a vampire, a honourable death by the standards of the Norse Northern pantheon. Hel only gets the dwarves that die of diseases, of which Durkon had none.

Wouldn't put past Hel to argue that technically, Durkon die from hemophilya and maybe some infection. :smalltongue:

But as I believe too that Durkon's soul is still in his body, I don't think we'll see that argument anytime soon. Would be fun, though.

And I sure hope Durkon will become a cleric of Hel.

[Wrecan]

If Durkula begins worshiping Hel -- which I think likely -- and Durkon's soul is still attached to his vampiric corpse, then when Durkula is slain, Hel may have a valid claim to the Durkon/Durkula soul since his actions post-vamp will have been evil.

Sometimes the universe is unfair, particularly when it's run by fallible gods trying to make sense of the rules of D&D alignment.

[Psyren]

By the letter of the rules right now, Durkon is a more powerful cleric than most clerics ever get--quite possibly the second most powerful cleric in the world where he exists (he already eclipses his master, whether said master has enough overvalued monster levels to have a higher CR or not)--who can bolster himself and, unless he rolls really badly, become immune to even Redcloak's rebuke ability by so doing.

Agreed - though I will point out that Redcloak has an artifact, so any by-the-rules strength comparison may go out the window depending on its plot powers.


If Durkula begins worshiping Hel -- which I think likely -- and Durkon's soul is still attached to his vampiric corpse, then when Durkula is slain, Hel may have a valid claim to the Durkon/Durkula soul since his actions post-vamp will have been evil.

Sometimes the universe is unfair, particularly when it's run by fallible gods trying to make sense of the rules of D&D alignment.

On the other hand, Thor may owe him a solid for being so inattentive when he was needed most. So if Durkon wants to return to the fold post-destruction there may be some rule-bending there as well.

Gah, so many directions this stuff can go... *shakes fist at the Giant*

[7RED7]

I wonder if any of this would set up a prime opportunity for the return of Hilgya?

[Themrys]

If Durkula begins worshiping Hel -- which I think likely -- and Durkon's soul is still attached to his vampiric corpse, then when Durkula is slain, Hel may have a valid claim to the Durkon/Durkula soul since his actions post-vamp will have been evil.

Actually, I don't think Hel gets the evil dwarves. She gets those who didn't die in battle. Their alignment doesn't seem to matter.
Of course she probably would get Durkon's soul if he started to worship her instead of Thor, but that would not be because of his alignment.

[Finn Solomon]

Yeah I think Loki gets the evil dwarves. Evil, evil dwarves with goatees instead of beards.

[KillingAScarab]

Durkon should be a priest of Banjo.

...What?No, not Banjo.

Durkon is currently in a state where he has become everything he hates. Well, nearly everything he hates. There's one more step until he gets there.

He must become the priest of Giggles.

But wait, Giggles is the puppet god of slapstick. Durkon did like the exploding runes coffee. Hmm... this is trickier than I thought.

[Lvl45DM!]

Just pointing out that Thor wasn't really being inattentive. He was busy fighting for the soul of a dwarf. Omniscience isn't part of his powerset really.

And it might break down to Loki getting evil Northerners, Hel getting undead Northerners. Compare Malack and the Oracle worshiping Nergal and Tiamat respectively.

[KillingAScarab]

And it might break down to Loki getting evil Northerners, Hel getting undead Northerners. Compare Malack and the Oracle worshiping Nergal and Tiamat respectively.I have never been clear as to which pantheon Tiamat belongs in. I know it isn't a part of the Southern gods. It isn't originally Norse, yet the Oracle isn't on the Western Continent and Malack says Tiamat isn't interested in "building a strong central government." You would think the many-factioned nature of the Western Continent would be somewhat of a fit for a dragon god which is five dragons put together, but the closest thing to a dragon we have seen there is that half-blue dragon half-ogre.


Just pointing out that Thor wasn't really being inattentive. He was busy fighting for the soul of a dwarf. Omniscience isn't part of his powerset really.Which was pretty hilarious when he would have fought Surtur (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html), in a horrific kind of way. ....well Xykon would find it funny. I'm going to shut up now.

[Lord of Sporks]

I have never been clear as to which pantheon Tiamat belongs in. I know it isn't a part of the Southern gods. It isn't originally Norse, yet the Oracle isn't on the Western Continent and Malack says Tiamat isn't interested in "building a strong central government."

Tiamat belongs to the Eastern pantheon, which is synonomous with Babylonian mythology in our own world. Tiamat was a goddess of chaos and destruction who was slayed by the god Marduk. Marduk then made the world with the remains of her body. Obviously that isn't the case here in Ootsland, but the god and goddess names are the same. The fact that she was a chaos goddess gives us a clue to why she isn't interested in stong cenral government. If I had to give her an alignment it would be Chaotic Evil.

[Psyren]

Just pointing out that Thor wasn't really being inattentive. He was busy fighting for the soul of a dwarf. Omniscience isn't part of his powerset really.

Part of being a god though is paying a bit more attention to your clerics (especially high-level ones) than your regular followers. Why else would you give them those powers?

Though to be fair, I don't know that Thor could have done anything to affect that situation even if he had been watching. After all, when he tried to interfere in the South even Tiger got pissed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) and they're on the same side, so it's possible that he'd have trouble intervening in the Windy Canyon's jurisdiction too.


I have never been clear as to which pantheon Tiamat belongs in. I know it isn't a part of the Southern gods. It isn't originally Norse, yet the Oracle isn't on the Western Continent and Malack says Tiamat isn't interested in "building a strong central government." You would think the many-factioned nature of the Western Continent would be somewhat of a fit for a dragon god which is five dragons put together, but the closest thing to a dragon we have seen there is that half-blue dragon half-ogre.

Tiamat/Bahamut are Based on babylonian gods I think, so wouldn't they fit in with Nergal and co?

[Obscure Blade]

Durkon is currently in a state where he has become everything he hates. Well, nearly everything he hates. There's one more step until he gets there.
His arms and legs are cut off, and replaced with magically animated tree limbs!

:durkon::eek:

[Tragak]

I just had a thought about why some death gods would allow the creation of undead, despite "corrupting the nature cycle:" maybe it's because it keeps the soul from being resurrected?

[KillingAScarab]

Tiamat belongs to the Eastern pantheon, which is synonomous with Babylonian mythology in our own world.


Tiamat/Bahamut are Based on babylonian gods I think, so wouldn't they fit in with Nergal and co?A look at Wikipedia tells me Nergal is a Babylonian deity, and was even portrayed as a lion (or a rooster). I think Lord of Sporks meant Western rather than Eastern, then.

Also, I just looked at Crayons of Time again. Tiamat is stated right there to be Western. I also noticed in the crayon drawings, the gods are color-coded for your convenience.


Though to be fair, I don't know that Thor could have done anything to affect that situation even if he had been watching. After all, when he tried to interfere in the South even Tiger got pissed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) and they're on the same side, so it's possible that he'd have trouble intervening in the Windy Canyon's jurisdiction too.Start of Darkness has some information on that. Post-snarl, Dragon from the not-yet-Southern gods proposes that the world be divided into thirds, each pantheon having direct influence only in one each. It seems like Marduk of the not-yet-Western gods (Marduk has red shading) asks what to do if something happening in another third of the world affects their third of the world. It is then proposed the gods choose people to imbue with powers which are not as cool as wizards to do their work outside of their third of the world. "We will call these marginally cool characters 'clerics.'"


His arms and legs are cut off, and replaced with magically animated tree limbs! Oh man! Combined with a change in speech pattern and he really will be known as Darth Durkon. Expect a "Big No!" to happen.