Oops, I think our stats are too high.

[Legolam]

So I just started playing with a new group, and they all built their characters on a 52 point buy. The DM is fairly new and one of the other players managed to convince him this was the way you run point buy.

So this got me thinking, what's the consequence of this?
Does it make some of the more MAD classes more playable?
Are we incredibly overpowered for our level (we're all level 3)?
Etc

For reference, I'm playing a Monk 3 with the following stats

Str: 16
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 18
Cha: 8

[Bakkan]

In my opinion, this will help the lower-tier classes, which are usually MAD, a lot more than the higher-tier classes, which tend to be SAD or DAD. I wouldn't worry about it. The DM might have to adjust the difficulty slightly upwards and/or the loot slightly downwards, but that's not a big deal.

[Eldariel]

It should be no problem. Hell, your Monk would be almost as good as a level 3 Fighter if he had 18 Strength. That's something. But yeah, early on stats matter more; later they still matter but some insanely powerful class features supercede them.

[TuggyNE]

It's a little crazy, but it's manageable (though for a new DM it's extra work*, which is unfortunate); as you've noticed, it affects MAD classes more than SAD, which is good. Still, there are a few classes (Cleric, for example) that really don't need the extra help, and some that it probably won't fix enough.

*Challenges probably need to be made a bit harder, but exactly how much is hard to judge without considerable experience.

[Oaktree0]

52 point buy, still an un-charismatic ugly mofo monk.

Yeah it's not big deal from my perspective. As long as the dm can tune the slider of difficulty it'll be fine, just fine. Even then if all of you are just cracking gobbo skulls (or whatever) even easier early on it's fine, just fine. In one of my games it would certainly be apparent that you guys are like gods with such beast mode arrays. (Ultra agile buff dude with eyes of an eagle and the fortitude of a bear!)

[jokeaccount]

If you guys are optimizers it could possibly go over the top. However in the campaign I'm at my stats (rolled) are:

str:17
dex:18
con:16
Int:16
Wis:14
Cha:12

And many of my party rolled almost as good as me and we still got one PK. So, it depends on your experience. (also, using MAD classes now that you have good ability scores maybe is a chance to enjoy them :P )

[Gwazi Magnum]

That can work out to balance out the weaker classes.

But if this was something a player told the DM is standard... it's not.
Because typically you spend 32 points, not 52.

[Slipperychicken]

Actually, one method for evening the playing field is to give higher point-buys for lower-tier classes, and lower ones for higher-tier classes. I mean, higher-tier classes tend to be less attribute-dependent anyway, but it's a nice thing for the lower-tier ones.


For example, a Monk (Tier 5) might receive 40 points, a Sorcerer (Tier 2) might get 20 points, while a Wizard (Tier 1) would only get 15.

[limejuicepowder]

That's how my RL group plays, or at least something like it. We get the completely dope array of 18 16 16 14 12 10, and we can assign them anywhere we want. Then we can move individual points as we want too. In the lower levels it means our characters are quite versatile, which is nice. It's also of note that we unintentionally play very low magic campaigns - none of my characters has ever had a stat-boosting item.

We almost never reach the later levels (10+), but I imagine the extra points don't matter in the slightest at that point. This is also the point that SAD characters show their superiority again: they only have 1 stat to boost, instead of 2 or even 3. This means that unfortunately, even huge differences in stats only help to close the gap between SAD and MAD (read: caster vs mundane) in the early levels. By 10th or so, the fighter is crying again.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Assuming this 3.5, the maximum listed point-buy is 32. If you're playing PF, I'm unsure.

As others have already stated, the only high tier class in core that would benifit is the cleric, but if the player is doing the stereotypical heal-bot, it won't be noticeable.

[Andreaz]

That's how my RL group plays, or at least something like it. We get the completely dope array of 18 16 16 14 12 10, and we can assign them anywhere we want. Then we can move individual points as we want too. In the lower levels it means our characters are quite versatile, which is nice. It's also of note that we unintentionally play very low magic campaigns - none of my characters has ever had a stat-boosting item.

We almost never reach the later levels (10+), but I imagine the extra points don't matter in the slightest at that point. This is also the point that SAD characters show their superiority again: they only have 1 stat to boost, instead of 2 or even 3. This means that unfortunately, even huge differences in stats only help to close the gap between SAD and MAD (read: caster vs mundane) in the early levels. By 10th or so, the fighter is crying again.
Here we like to use 18 18 16 14 12 10, fixed.

Very few classes truly benefit from two high stats, and as far as I can tell they all don't really shine over the others...so you get the following:

1) The actual balance of classes remains the same.
2) MAD classes function a deal better and some weaknesses are shored up
3) More feat combinations are possible, though few shift the power balance, and none significantly.

[Krobar]

Stats really aren't that important. A few pluses here and there don't really change the balance of the game. So don't worry about it.

My games tend to have pretty high stat characters too, and I have yet to have a problem due to them. But then again, the NPCs and BBEGs tend to have high stats, too. So it all balances out in the end.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Another thing to note, assuming your DM goes close to wealth-by-level, then your group won't have the money to boost all of their stats effectively while also saving enough for armor or weapons.

[Eldariel]

Stats really aren't that important. A few pluses here and there don't really change the balance of the game.

It's quite relative. A 32pb Fighter will absolutely crush a 32pb Monk in terms of efficiency. A 60pb Fighter will be quite even with a 60pb Monk in terms of efficiency.

[Krobar]

It's quite relative. A 32pb Fighter will absolutely crush a 32pb Monk in terms of efficiency. A 60pb Fighter will be quite even with a 60pb Monk in terms of efficiency.

Well, since our games tend to have higher stats, that might be part of the reason we haven't had that issue come up.

[Shining Wrath]

So I just started playing with a new group, and they all built their characters on a 52 point buy. The DM is fairly new and one of the other players managed to convince him this was the way you run point buy.

So this got me thinking, what's the consequence of this?
Does it make some of the more MAD classes more playable?
Are we incredibly overpowered for our level (we're all level 3)?
Etc

For reference, I'm playing a Monk 3 with the following stats

Str: 16
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 18
Cha: 8

You'll be fine. DM should just treat your party as maybe one or two levels higher when setting difficulty of fights.

[white lancer]

We always roll for stats, and my stats tend to look similar to those (if not a little higher). Usually we don't have any problems despite having high stats. My level 2 Dwarf Cleric in our current game has:

Str 14
Dex 10
Con 18
Int 14
Wis 18
Cha 11

Which is very similar to your guy.

[Spuddles]

Higher pointbuy DOES help casters, and more than you think. An old gray elf has -5 con & -5 str, which is very noticeable in a sub level 12 environment. The +4 int is worth it if you can start with an 18 con and an 18 int. 24 int means two bonus 3rd level spells and virtually unbeatable saves for non elite array monsters.

I suspect that most game time will be spent under level 12, which makes ability score optimization important. Level 12 is sort of the cut off level because you start getting ridiculous amounts of wealth and crazy spell effects and pleny of low level slots.

[TuggyNE]

Higher pointbuy DOES help casters, and more than you think. An old gray elf has -5 con & -5 str, which is very noticeable in a sub level 12 environment. The +4 int is worth it if you can start with an 18 con and an 18 int. 24 int means two bonus 3rd level spells and virtually unbeatable saves for non elite array monsters.

Uh… point buy doesn't generally go beyond 18, before racial modifiers, so those numbers look off. Unless you mean 18-5 = 13 Con, 18+4+2 enhancement = 24 Int?

[Spuddles]

Uh… point buy doesn't generally go beyond 18, before racial modifiers, so those numbers look off. Unless you mean 18-5 = 13 Con, 18+4+2 enhancement = 24 Int?

Yes that's exactly what I meant. And I mathed wrong. 22 int is what you get to begin with.

[HunterOfJello]

A starting stat of 30 or greater is too high. Anything else is really not that bad.

A monk or soulknife with starting stats of all 18s still isn't going to break the game.

[Crake]

If you guys are optimizers it could possibly go over the top. However in the campaign I'm at my stats (rolled) are:

str:17
dex:18
con:16
Int:16
Wis:14
Cha:12

And many of my party rolled almost as good as me and we still got one PK. So, it depends on your experience. (also, using MAD classes now that you have good ability scores maybe is a chance to enjoy them :P )

pfft, 1 PK's nothing, in one of my current campaigns we've racked up something like 37 deaths (45 if you include petrification as a kill) and pretty much everyone has rolled above 50 point buy.

[Gwazi Magnum]

A starting stat of 30 or greater is too high. Anything else is really not that bad.

A monk or soulknife with starting stats of all 18s still isn't going to break the game.

My Orc Fighter who had a starting Strength of 25 disagrees.

[Andreaz]

My Orc Fighter who had a starting Strength of 25 disagrees.I've seen a couple games with dumb pointbuys that allowed, say, starting with 24 STR. It breaks things really fast, level 1 just isn't made for a +6 bonus right off the bat.