I don´t think this VoP charakter S**ks

[Kaulz]

Many People talking about Vow of Poverty as a crap feat but I dont think so because, beside brilliand rpg abillitys IMO my Bear Warrior is an Bullwark of Might. Using the following build. Too i have to say that my highlvl experience is limeted.

Dwrav

1Ranger-Endurance
2Fighter-Improved Unarmed Strike
3Fighter.Greater Fortitude-Powerattack
4Barbarian
5Fist of the Forest
6Deepwarden-Sacred Vow
7Deepwarden
8Bearwarrior
9Bearwarrior-Vow of Poverty
10Bearwarrior
11Bearwarrior
12Bearwarrior-Steadfast Determination
13Warshaper
14Warshaper
15Warshaper-?!? open any suggestions ?
16Warshaper

AC about 47 high Con high Str
some goodys: Fasthealing 2 Freedom of movement no breathing no eating etc

details coming soon
what do you guys think about it ?

[Story]

How do you fly? How do you handle incorporeal enemies? How do you handle ability damage and energy drain?

Can you beat a CR3 Allip?

[Rubik]

Can you beat a CR3 Allip?At level 20?

[eggynack]

Aside from just infinite typos, and the fact that VoP is a terrible feat for various reasons which are discussed roughly everywhere, you have VoP as your feat at level 9 which means that you're gaining only limited benefit from the generally terrible exalted feats that you haven't listed on your sheet. Your classes seem alright, however quite a few of your feats here, separate from the VoP stuff, are pretty awful. For example, you should probably ditch endurance after you're done realizing the holy terror that is VoP.

[Deophaun]

How do you handle incorporeal enemies?
With a 50% miss chance. Natural attacks/unarmed strikes for VoP characters are considered magic at this level. So, hopefully he'll hit at least once during a full attack. The allip should die.

But yeah, not a very flexible character. Your Will save is also going to be horrible, and you have no means of correcting it. You could easily be turned into your party's enemy.

[Big Fau]

With a 50% miss chance. Natural attacks/unarmed strikes for VoP characters are considered magic at this level. So, hopefully he'll hit at least once during a full attack. The allip should die.

But yeah, not a very flexible character. Your Will save is also going to be horrible, and you have no means of correcting it. You could easily be turned into your party's enemy.

Not when it flies 10ft above his head and starts talking...

[CockroachTeaParty]

{scrubbed}

[Aracor]

Aside from just infinite typos, and the fact that VoP is a terrible feat for various reasons which are discussed roughly everywhere, you have VoP as your feat at level 9 which means that you're gaining only limited benefit from the generally terrible exalted feats that you haven't listed on your sheet. Your classes seem alright, however quite a few of your feats here, separate from the VoP stuff, are pretty awful. For example, you should probably ditch endurance after you're done realizing the holy terror that is VoP.

Endurance is there for Steadfast Determination.

[Deophaun]

Not when it flies 10ft above his head and starts talking...
The character took Vow of Poverty. I think that means the PC doesn't qualify as "sane." :smallwink:

[ButtSoup]

Whats a Dwrav? JK.

VoP is only really good for the role-playing. You can try all you want, but VoP leaves too many holes. A lot of DMs take party ability into account when designing encounters so maybe your DM wont screw you over with the flying incorporeal threats mentioned above.
As long as you have fun playing it, it works.

[Rubik]

VoP is only really good terrible for the role-playing.Fixed that for you.

There's nothing "good" about being poor.

No, not even then.

[Venger]

With a 50% miss chance. Natural attacks/unarmed strikes for VoP characters are considered magic at this level. So, hopefully he'll hit at least once during a full attack. The allip should die.

But yeah, not a very flexible character. Your Will save is also going to be horrible, and you have no means of correcting it. You could easily be turned into your party's enemy.

even if you do have your bear claws count as magic, incorporeal foes do not care (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype) because anything from a corporeal source:


has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons).

none of which his bear claws count as

[Kaulz]

after all, the party is not "ME" but 4 PC´s normaly

atm it´s me and an rough whith a ton of UMD skill that should solve some problems

flyinng was an problem already but in a dugneon whith low celing an average jump is an option

I d like to go on whith Fist o t Forest for uncanny dodge and untamed strike to kick as incorperal better than 50%chance

I beat 2 Beholders nearly alone whith my "low" willsave of around +20 thanks to Steadfast determination(con instead of wis-mod @ ST )

my first 16th lvl adventure was quiet funny whith this build and I looking for more aktion ^^

any suggestions for feat NR. 15 ? animal devotion is a littl flavorless but would solve the fly problem

sry 4 bad english XP

[Kaulz]

even if you do have your bear claws count as magic, incorporeal foes do not care (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype) because anything from a corporeal source:



none of which his bear claws count as


Dont get it ...Is it because i am an bear ?
IMO my fist/claw has the 50% chance of hit cause of exaltet strike ability +3good

[Deophaun]

Dont get it ...Is it because i am an bear ?
It's because he wanted to repeat what I said. I don't know what he wanted it to read as if he was disagreeing.

Anyway, yes, your party members can do things to compensate for your weaknesses... but they shouldn't have to. And again, your will save is so low you can be taken out of the fight easy enough, or forced to join team bad guy. At that point, you're a liability.

[Karnith]

Dont get it ...Is it because i am an bear ?
IMO my fist/claw has the 50% chance of hit cause of exaltet strike ability +3good
I'm not sure if Venger was disagreeing with you or not, but you are correct. The benefits of Vow of Poverty let characters with exalted strike hit incorporeal creatures at least some of the time. Specifically, exalted strike says:

At 4th level, an ascetic gains a +1 enhancement bonus on all his attack and damage rolls. In effect, any weapon the character wields becomes a +1 magic weapon, and can overcome damage reduction of a creature as though it were a magic weapon.
Because of some nonstandard wording, a VoP character's weapons count as magic weapons generally, not just for damage reduction. A VoP character ought to be able to have the normal 50% chance of hitting incorporeal creatures.

Alternately, your character could just take that second level of Fist of the Forest instead of something else along the way, and gain that class's unarmed strike ability, which will unambiguously give you a 50% chance of damaging incorporeal creatures, and ought to let your unarmed strikes function as lesser ghost touch weapons.


Anyway, yes, your party members can do things to compensate for your weaknesses... but they shouldn't have to. And again, your will save is so low you can be taken out of the fight easy enough, or forced to join team bad guy. At that point, you're a liability.
His Will save isn't actually going to be as bad as all that. He has steadfast determination, which lets him use his Constitution bonus instead of his Wisdom bonus on Will saves.

[Kaulz]

It's because he wanted to repeat what I said. I don't know what he wanted it to read as if he was disagreeing.

Anyway, yes, your party members can do things to compensate for your weaknesses... but they shouldn't have to. And again, your will save is so low you can be taken out of the fight easy enough, or forced to join team bad guy. At that point, you're a liability.


what is an good willsave in your opinion? +20 is not even enogh?

[Kaulz]

Aside from just infinite typos, and the fact that VoP is a terrible feat for various reasons which are discussed roughly everywhere, you have VoP as your feat at level 9 which means that you're gaining only limited benefit from the generally terrible exalted feats that you haven't listed on your sheet. Your classes seem alright, however quite a few of your feats here, separate from the VoP stuff, are pretty awful. For example, you should probably ditch endurance after you're done realizing the holy terror that is VoP.

So would it be better to take 10 worthless exaltet feats or would 4 worthless feats be enogh? ^^ joke...
i toke nymphs kiss @ 10th for early extra SP
nimbus of light and stigma but i am not realy sure about those two.
and Righteous Wrath to remain Sane during Rage

[Psyren]

VoP has exactly one purpose:

"I was going to play a character concept that uses no items anyway, and I'd at least like some kind of bonuses to mitigate the crippling loss in effectiveness that D&D expects my WBL to cover. These bonuses aren't great. but they beat the heck out of being functionally naked with no bonuses at all. My class features should help me compensate for having no items as well."

If you can't honestly say the above, or something similar to it, VoP isn't for you.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

Fixed that for you.

There's nothing "good" about being poor.

No, not even then.
It represents a challenge that can be presented by your character's worldview and gives an in-game bonus for using the challenge to affect the crunch of your character. The bonus may not match up to the original bonus of simply not having that particular worldview or character trait, but it is better than no bonus at all.
Edit: Swordsage'd

[Kaulz]

VoP has exactly one purpose:

"I was going to play a character concept that uses no items anyway, and I'd at least like some kind of bonuses to mitigate the crippling loss in effectiveness that D&D expects my WBL to cover. These bonuses aren't great. but they beat the heck out of being functionally naked with no bonuses at all. My class features should help me compensate for having no items as well."

If you can't honestly say the above, or something similar to it, VoP isn't for you.

as already said i have little to no Highlvl experience...i will response if i get totaly struck with this. for sure some effects would be nice to have but after all i still like the concept till now...lets see what happens

[nedz]

VoP has exactly one purpose:

"I was going to play a character concept that uses no items anyway, and I'd at least like some kind of bonuses to mitigate the crippling loss in effectiveness that D&D expects my WBL to cover. These bonuses aren't great. but they beat the heck out of being functionally naked with no bonuses at all. My class features should help me compensate for having no items as well."

If you can't honestly say the above, or something similar to it, VoP isn't for you.

Or if you find yourself in a game where WBL is merely aspirational, and so you wouldn't lose out by taking VoP.

[Venger]

It's because he wanted to repeat what I said. I don't know what he wanted it to read as if he was disagreeing.

Anyway, yes, your party members can do things to compensate for your weaknesses... but they shouldn't have to. And again, your will save is so low you can be taken out of the fight easy enough, or forced to join team bad guy. At that point, you're a liability.

well, I wasn't disagreeing with you, really, I just wanted to clarify the incorporeality rules, since they are sort of confusing. magic weapons are required to hit at all, but don't eliminate the 50% miss chance, that's all I wanted to say.

[Arcanist]

VoP has exactly one purpose:

"I was going to play a character concept that uses no items anyway, and I'd at least like some kind of bonuses to mitigate the crippling loss in effectiveness that D&D expects my WBL to cover. These bonuses aren't great. but they beat the heck out of being functionally naked with no bonuses at all. My class features should help me compensate for having no items as well."

If you can't honestly say the above, or something similar to it, VoP isn't for you.

I remember a DM I had changed VoP to allow the character to destroy a magical item and absorb it into the character. The item then takes up a body slot and becomes an at will SLA that can be activated once for every 1,000gp the item cost in addition to it's (VoP's) standard abilities.

I thought it was neat :smalltongue:

[ButtSoup]

Fixed that for you.

There's nothing "good" about being poor.

No, not even then.

As someone said, it works if you plan on role-playing someone with no money. Its almost like the vow of poverty feat was made for characters who have taken a vow of poverty.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

A few things to note about VoP: unlike just about every other feat out there, it is a supernatural ability, meaning it turns off in an antimagic field. It also has that whole "you only gain the benefits for the level you take it and up," but I forget id that's for all the abilities or just the bonus exalted feats.

[Karnith]

It also has that whole "you only gain the benefits for the level you take it and up," but I forget id that's for all the abilities or just the bonus exalted feats.
That is only for the bonus feats; everything else you gain no matter what level you take Vow of Poverty.

[JeenLeen]

It also has that whole "you only gain the benefits for the level you take it and up," but I forget id that's for all the abilities or just the bonus exalted feats.

For this reason, I would recommend taking it at an earlier level. If you aren't too attached to dwarf--which I can understand, as dwarves are awesome (good stats; innate +2 to saves vs spells; darkvision)--I would recommend going human (or a human variant that gets a bonus feat at level 1) so you can start off with Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, thus gaining a bonus Exalted Feat at level 1 as well, and accumulating them as you level up instead of starting rather late in the game. That gives you more exalted feats to benefit from.

Another racial change could be to be a Raptoran from Races of the Wild, as they get flight as a racial ability. (It starts off not good, but as you level up, it becomes better.)

As noted in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273282), Incarnum can be good for VoP, as it can emulate some of the things you lose from not having magic items. That thread goes into a good bit of detail, so I recommend you read it. Though it too comments on how VoP is not the most optimal choice. To really benefit, you would need to change some of your class choices, but Totemist can stack very well with Warshaper, in my opinion. Between extra attacks from Totemist soulmelds, Warshaper's abilities, and VoP bonus to natural attacks and things like Touch of Golden Ice, you could make a decent meleer. (I realize this would be a very different character from your original design, so feel free to disregard it if you wish.)

[Kaulz]

For this reason, I would recommend taking it at an earlier level. If you aren't too attached to dwarf--which I can understand, as dwarves are awesome (good stats; innate +2 to saves vs spells; darkvision)--I would recommend going human (or a human variant that gets a bonus feat at level 1) so you can start off with Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, thus gaining a bonus Exalted Feat at level 1 as well, and accumulating them as you level up instead of starting rather late in the game. That gives you more exalted feats to benefit from.

Another racial change could be to be a Raptoran from Races of the Wild, as they get flight as a racial ability. (It starts off not good, but as you level up, it becomes better.)



to be a Dwarf i kind of the core cause Deepwarden requiers me to be one.
and besides good Stats they too fit better as an Raptoran, that turns into an bear.
2 times Con-mod gives me 2 times +11 AC in Bear form...dex and cha is quiet worthless and if you start in lategame u can go Arctic Dwarf(+2Str+2Con-4Dex-2Cha)
No space 4 Stoneblessed, that would count me as dwraf.

Still don´t know Feat Nr.15:smalleek:

[Crake]

This... this thread's a joke right?

[Kaulz]

This... this thread's a joke right?

Why do u think so ?