Building my first Monk

[sambouchah]

As the title states, I am building my very first monk. Been playing for years, never played a monk. So any advice on what feats to take or not to take? I was thinking unorthodox flurry maybe.

Thanks, Sam

[Zaq]

There are several ways to approach this. You are aware of the general regard Monks are held in, no? I would hope you must be, but people surprise me often. Your question presents me with three options.

1) You aren't aware of the fact that Monks are nearly universally considered to be terrible, and you specifically want to play a capital-M Monk.
2) You aren't aware of the fact that Monks are terrible, but you are interested in making an unarmed martial artist character, who may or may not be a Monk.
3) You are aware of the fact that Monks are terrible, and you specifically want to play a capital-M Monk for whatever reason (a self-imposed challenge, sheer bloody-mindedness, or something of that nature).

I must choose to ignore the possibility that you are aware of the fact that Monks are terrible but want to play an unarmed martial artist character, because you would have phrased this rather differently. Anyway, which is it? Are you playing a Monk because you think Monks are good? Are you playing a Monk because you just want the Monk-style archetype? Or are you playing a Monk just to prove that you can? The answer will greatly affect what kind of advice is appropriate.

Just as important, of course, is the standard battery of questions. What level are you starting at? Do you have any banned sources? How high-op is your group? Etc., etc., etc.

[Gildedragon]

If in 3.5 ask if you can port over the PF monk. It is pretty backwards compatible and its slight power boost helps (and gives you more resources to pick and choose)
--------

Within 3.5 I'd look at monk prc's and see if any strikes your fancy.
Shadow Sun Ninja, Enlightened Fist, and Sacred Fist (text) are good and give you neat effects for your attacks.
The prc might determine a lot of your feats.

[Silvanoshei]

As the title states, I am building my very first monk. Been playing for years, never played a monk. So any advice on what feats to take or not to take? I was thinking unorthodox flurry maybe.

Thanks, Sam

Or... you could actually help your party out and pick something like druid, or cleric... or wizard... or couple levels of fighter and go rogue... anything else really.

[Phelix-Mu]

So, ignoring the general opinion of monks, let's get down to business.

Two key things to realize about monks are that they are MAD (multiple ability disorder) and they are feat hungry (despite their bonus feats). Thus, the stats you roll (and any help from racial choices) can influence your options. The first thing to think of is do you want to be a Strength monk (tripper or grappler) or a Dex monk (for whom grappling may be ill-advised and tripping will be less effective). If you want to actually deal any damage w/e and are playing from low levels, lemme suggest Strength monk (unless you want a halfling monk, which has a whole stack of class options of its own). If you pick Dex monk, you are obligated to save a feat for Weapon Finesse (once you qualify for it, if your DM doesn't waive the rather moronic +1 BAB requirement).

So, once you determine a rough outline of a fighting style, you need to decide how many monk levels you want. Most will suggest two. I'm a little more open-minded (I think others would say bloody-minded on this issue), but I still would say no more than six if you are aiming for anything higher than the low of low op, flavor-based character.

So, if you aren't sticking with monk (and there is really less than no good reason to stick with it), how are you multiclassing. There are 3 classic options:

1.) Monk/Divine Caster-> Sacred Fist
2.) Monk/Arcane Caster-> Enlightened Fist (bleh) or Master of the East Wind (dragon mag), or some other thing
3.) Tashalatora Monk

Of the three, Tashalatora monk is probably the best combo of flexible and powerful. Obviously, divine spellcasting and the strong nature of the Sacred Fist PrC makes a good combo as well, but several psionic powers combo extremely well with the type of fighting monks get up to.

The only reason arcane is worth mentioning is that there are feats to swap Wis-based monk for Int-based monk (Kung-Fu Genius from Dragon mags and Carmendine Monk from Champions of Valor). From wizard you can get useful low level spells, wraithstrike and grtr/mighty wallop (races of the dragon). Abjurant Champion is nice here, but doesn't progress monk abilities. Master of the East Wind is a decent monk/arcane PrC from Dragon Magazine that advances both spells and monk abilities.

Alright, here I should have earlier just reference Dictum Mortuum's excellent monk guide, but I imagine someone has ninja'd me on this. Ah, they have not...google it and you will find it.

As a final note, Stunning Fist can be very useful (unless in a campaign where a good portion of enemies are immune). Pick up Pain Touch from Complete Warrior for an excellent debuff (when it hits). This is an excellent role play option, too, if you want to play a good-aligned monk that isn't going to be splitting skulls left and right.

Ignore the monk flack. It's true, but so what.

[OverdrivePrime]

C'mon guys. Someone's who's posted as much as Sambouchah is most likely aware of the Monk class's bad reputation. Do you really have to go out of your way to slam everyone who wants to try to play the class? Just help the guy out and answer his question.

In any case, Smbouchah, are you playing D&D 3.5, or Pathfinder? The monk works a bit differently in the two competing versions of the game. The pathfinder monk archetypes offer a lot of versatility and help you to winnow out some of the class abilities you don't care about that conflict with the class abilities you do care about.

If you're playing 3.5, definitely steer clear of the grapple trap. It's fun to imagine, but it doesn't work well in practice.
Dump as many skill points as you can into Use Magic Device.
Also, high movement and flurry tend to be mutually exclusive. If you can trade away the flurry class ability for a better alternate class feature, do it.

Try to reduce your dependence on multiple abilities as much as possible. There are a couple ways to make a Constitution-reliant dwarf monk that doesn't such.

Pick a theme and leverage the crap out of it. There's a lot of temptation to try to explore everything that your monk can do, and that leads to a character that sucks at everything. If you want to be the infiltrator, go for that, and crank your dex through the roof. If you want to focus on shutting down one or two foes and act as a flanking buddy with a very grateful rogue, maximize your wisdom and pick up feats to make your stunning fist as mean as you can.

[Gildedragon]

A fun combo is chaos monk + barbarian it lets you take advantage of pounce and fob

[Alaris]

A fun combo is chaos monk + barbarian it lets you take advantage of pounce and fob

How did I not know that? Hmm... gonna have to play that at some point :P

[Person_Man]

Are you willing to consider non-Monk classes that better duplicate Monk abilities? (Swordsage et al).

Are you willing to consider multi-class builds? Prestige classes?

What books and/or 3rd party material is available?

Can you use Pathfinder?

Is homebrew on the table?

And can we, as a playground, agree to not waste two pages arguing over why he shouldn't be a Monk?

[Namfuak]

I'm just going to throw in a monk I'm playing now that I'm finding fun and doesn't use magic/psionics, if that's not the style you want.

Monk 4/SLT Barb 1/Fist of the Forest 1/(Fotf 2/Bear warrior 1/Warshaper 4/x). Effectively, you optimize strength (in my case it was my second highest stat after con, but that was because I am intentionally playing a slightly lower optimized character), and FotF's Con to AC makes your slightly less MAD. Once you get into Bear Warrior, you can start turning into a bear and punching people with your claws, as well as throwing in your primary natural attack. Bonus points if your DM rules that it qualifies you for Multiattack.

[GreenSerpent]

I'm just going to throw in a monk I'm playing now that I'm finding fun and doesn't use magic/psionics, if that's not the style you want.

Monk 4/SLT Barb 1/Fist of the Forest 1/(Fotf 2/Bear warrior 1/Warshaper 4/x). Effectively, you optimize strength (in my case it was my second highest stat after con, but that was because I am intentionally playing a slightly lower optimized character), and FotF's Con to AC makes your slightly less MAD. Once you get into Bear Warrior, you can start turning into a bear and punching people with your claws, as well as throwing in your primary natural attack. Bonus points if your DM rules that it qualifies you for Multiattack.

Though you do need to have the alignment restriction waived (if your DM actually uses those by-the-book). Or go Chaos Monk.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm going to give the post I usually give when I see someone doing this combo or something like it.

Step 1. Don't be Monk for anything more than 2 levels.

Step 2. See Step 1.

..........

What happened was that WotC really dropped the ball when they made the Monk. So much that they wrote several ways of doing things that can be considered 'Monk v.2.0'. Here are the major 'replacements' for monk:

1.) Unarmed Swordsage, from Tome of Battle. This is the most obvious Monk 2.0. Go take a look at it; the Unarmed bit is an Adaptation of the character class, and it does everything the monk wanted to do.

2.) Tashalatora Psychic Warrior. What you do with this is take a level or 2 of Monk, the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona, and go into Psychic Warrior from Expanded Psionics Handbook or the System Resource Document and never look back. Instead of Psychic Warrior, Ardent (from Complete Psionics) can work well, too.

3.) (Whirling Frenzy [System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana] or Ferocity [Cityscape Web Enhancement]), Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) Barbarian. Those are the core changes and acf's of the barbarian class to make it more monk-like. Take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement) and City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349). Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement) isn't necessary --it helps--, so you can take it or not as you want. I would suggest Whirling Frenzy over Ferocity. Just get Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), a Monk's Belt (DMG or SRD, if your wisdom is high), some light armor (if your wisdom isn't high), a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species), and/or a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic). In fact, any of these builds could maybe use those items!

4.) Monk 2/Mystic/Sacred Fist. This monk build uses a divine class, and the 'text over table' rule to get full casting for the Sacred Fist prestige class in complete divine. It works okay with Cleric, great with the Mystic class from Dragonlance Campaign Setting (choose a strong melee domain or devotion [complete champion!]), and pretty good with Favored Soul from Complete Divine. Don't take more than 2 levels of Monk. Focus on long-duration self-buffs.

5.) Monk with a huuuuge variety of alternative class features. Namely: Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor), Resistant Body (Planar Handbook), who picks up the 'X Wild Shape' (where X is a descriptor) feats from Draconomicon, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Frostburn. Make sure the DM lets you use your unarmed strikes at the end of your natural attacks. Focus on Wild Shape forms that get Pounce. Only works as 'powerful' once you get Wild Shape, and if you use a method of speaking while in Wild Shape (like pearl of speech, magic item compendium), and of getting your gear to work while in Wild Shape as well (Wilding Clasps, or taking it off and putting it on with help, after you shape, etc.).




Oh, and just a note: NEVER TAKE VOW OF POVERTY. It dramatically lowers your overall power and capability, it neuters your possible versatility, and the DM can never give you gear to help you overcome any of your limitations. FURTHER, it is worse than equivalent Wealth By Level (ie, if you spent the money the game assumes you have, you will come out ahead of where Vow of Poverty would place you!), and it is far worse than even much less wealth by level, provided you spend that money intelligently.

Consider the "List of Necessary Magic Items", here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851

This list talks about the sorts of things that characters need to remain competitive. It includes things like Flight, Mind Blank, immunity to Stun, True Seeing, USEFUL teleportation, Freedom of Movement, etc. etc. ... things you will never, ever get as one of the weakest combos in the game -- the VoP Monk.

[Namfuak]

Though you do need to have the alignment restriction waived (if your DM actually uses those by-the-book). Or go Chaos Monk.

My character started at level 5, so I just said he had switched alignment as a Monk 4 and taken a barbarian level. It's all in his backstory :smallcool:

[Gwendol]

I've played with 2 monks (first a straight hobgoblin monk, got him to level 5-6) the other is a goliath multiclass character with 2 levels of monk. Grappling can work, don't let people tell you otherwise, but it's a strategy useable only in specific circumstances.

Focusing on making lots of attacks is likely better: tripping, combat reflexes, snap kick, twf even are all good. A cleric level and grabbing travel devotion is recommended and kind of fits the concept.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to Grapple...

You should read these handbooks!

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=585.0

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870826/Black_Blood_Cultist_Handbook:_A_Grapplers_Manual

Monk 2 can be VERY useful in a grapple build. But going more than that is... generally not useful...

Remember, the idea of a grappler is to be better at grappling than a full classed Human Warrior 4 with 24 point buy, who dumps everything into strength and a bit into maybe con, in Full Plate with Armor Spikes and Spiked Gauntlets, who has the feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, and Scorpion's Grasp, after they chugged a 50 gp potion of Enlarge Person. That is the minimum level of grappling competency you should aspire to!

[Curmudgeon]

If you want to play a Monk, you start by realizing that nearly all their class abilities lack synergy. As a consequence, you choose almost all of the available options which deviate from the standard Monk class. (Vow of Poverty is the option which just consistently underperforms, unless you're in a very resource-constrained campaign.)

Does your DM use point buy? How about variable point buy by class? My recommendation is to never roll for stats, or any other part of level advancement. (Hit points at levels after the first are always average + ½.) Instead, adjust the points available for point buy (points used to buy stats, as per DMG page 169) based on the Tier System for Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559):

15 point buy (This is where the Wizard is.)
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
You might try 50 here, but frankly you're better off just forgetting classes this weak.
This assumes you're going to start in your primary class. If you change the primary class in later levels you'd retroactively lose points if necessary, but would never retroactively gain points. Anyway, so I'd ask for at least 40 point buy to create your Monk.

One option is the Chaos Monk (Dragon # 335, page 89), a class rewrite which gives the Monk an overall performance boost at the cost of predictability. (There's even unpredictability in reading the class description because at level 11 the Chaos Monk has the undocumented ability Greater Flailing. With the regular Monk class there's Greater Flurry at that level, which adds one extra attack at full BAB. Assuming you read Greater Flailing the same way, at level 11 the Chaos Monk gets 1d6 full BAB attacks, with an iterative single attack at BAB-5.) As has been noted, you can multiclass this with Barbarian for the Lion Spiritual Totem option to get Pounce at level 1 (see Complete Champion). If you go for Chaos Monk and decide to be a DEX-based Monk, the Chaond (Chaotic Planetouched race in Monster Manual II) is a good choice with their +4 to DEX. Adjust this down from a LA +1 Outsider with the Lesser Planetouched option (Player's Guide to Faerûn, page 191) and your Chaos Monk will be a Humanoid (planetouched) instead. You won't have a level adjustment, you won't have 1 hit die of Outsider, and you will be able to benefit from spells like Enlarge Person.

With a regular Monk things get a bit harder. You might opt for the Chaond's counterpart, a Zenythri, with the Lesser Planetouched option: STR +2, DEX +2, WIS +2, CHA -2. Those are pretty good modifiers for a Monk. Then start piling on the ACFs, subsitution levels, and whatnot.

2. Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21) exchanges evasion for the ability to become invisible for 1 round, every 3 rounds. Naturally, you'll want to buy a Ring of Evasion as soon as your budget allows; or hint to your DM that one of those found in treasure would be very serendipitous.
3. If you're willing to have Shar as your patron, join the Dark Moon Disciples and exchange still mind for darkvision 60' with a substitution level (Champions of Valor Web Enhancement).
4. Water Step ACF (Stormwrack, pages 50-51): exchange slow fall for ability to walk briefly on water.
et cetera

[ArcturusV]

Well, I'd suggest PrCing out of Monk as soon as possible. There's lots of Monk PrCs out there that do "monky" things which aren't trying to totally rewrite the class into being Paladinish, or part wizard, or something. So you can keep the flavor and end up adding an effective chassis on.

Shintao Monk (Oriental Adventures) is one of my favorite ones. Enter it by level 5. First level in it you get Touch the Void Dragon which can help with some MADness, since you get a free Stat Boos for an hour per level. Note that the ability doesn't say "Class Level", just level. So when you get it you're getting 5 hours of one stat boosted per day. More than enough for typical adventuring and you can always use whatever boosts you can get.

Tattooed Monk is a good one level dip. Get whatever Tattoo you find most useful and get out. Mountain Tattoo can be useful in certain situations, Chrysanthemum if you're in a very low magical item setting, but not a favored one for me. Chameleon however, almost always useful. Same with Tiger and Wasp.

[Pickford]

As the title states, I am building my very first monk. Been playing for years, never played a monk. So any advice on what feats to take or not to take? I was thinking unorthodox flurry maybe.

Thanks, Sam

Hi Sam,

Bear in mind if you're going straight monk you're going to find there are far more feats that are of interest than you can ever pick up, this is partly owing to 'most' of the monk feats from CW requiring at least +2 BAB (i.e. past 3rd level). So you have to pick wisely and much like Fighter, it is crucial to map out what your fighting style will be and map appropriately.

General tips: Naysayers will tell you a Monk has to focus on too many stats whereas others can focus on just one...this is overlooking the fact that Con is valuable to all, Dex is valuable to all and so forth. If Monk is MAD...so is every class. Put your highest stat in Str, it gives you to hit and bonus damage, so it's your highest priority. Wisdom provides defense and increases the DC on your special abilities, so your second highest stat should be in wisdom. I'd split the difference on Con/Dex, it's better to have +2 in each of these than +3 in one.

Suggested 32 point buy(s) for 1st level:

Str: 18 Str: 18 Str: 18
Dex: 14 Dex: 10 Dex: 12
Con: 10 or Con: 10 or Con: 12
Int: 10 Int: 10 Int: 10
Wis: 14 Wis: 16 Wis: 14
Cha: 8 Cha: 8 Cha: 8

Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of putting much into Con or Int, you're not a skill monkey, so I'm prone to even go for this:

Str: 18; Dex: 12; Con: 10; Int: 8; Wis: 16; Cha: 8


Unless you're going all out grapple don't bother with it, pick up stunning fist the pre-requisites are so high it would be crazy not to.

Important things to note: Stunning fist abilities (yeah there's more than one) can only be used once a round normally. If you plan on really getting use out of it, you have to pick up Rapid Stunning (CW).

Now pull out your PHBII:
Take Fiery Fist at 2nd level, it's simply too good to pass up adding an extra d6 to every attack. This will make your stunning fist useful even if you know your enemy can make their fort saves (which at early levels they likely cannot). Once you've picked up Rapid Stunning you can combine with Fists of Iron.

The big draw from the monk is that you have the best save progressions and so should not fear magic.

[Deaxsa]

The big draw from the monk is that you have the best save progressions and so should not fear magic.

first of all, It's YOU! the one who derailed my already semi-derailed monk thread!

second, just hope they cast something that allows saves. (honestly, favored soul is better here)

other than that, listen to this guy, he knows his stuff, even if he is a bit of a white knight when it comes to monks :smalltongue:

[Story]

The big draw from the monk is that you have the best save progressions and so should not fear magic.

Are you sure it's not because they were too MAD to spare points in intelligence?

Anyway, Warblade is way better for that thanks to Diamond Mind, though you could get it from a dip too I suppose.

[Pickford]

first of all, It's YOU! the one who derailed my already semi-derailed monk thread!

second, just hope they cast something that allows saves. (honestly, favored soul is better here)

other than that, listen to this guy, he knows his stuff, even if he is a bit of a white knight when it comes to monks :smalltongue:

Sorry if that was the end result. Fun stuff to do with a monk: post 11th level Coat your body (since you're immune from Diamond Body) with deadly contact poisons, the ones that deal 3d6 Con damage seem best and just flurry touch your enemy with improved grapple.

Story: I'd argue the monk doesn't need to be a skill monkey, just pump your points into tumble.

The monk special weapons are important too, they provide the monk with each type of damage (since bludgeoning is your standard from unarmed) and bonuses to the various combat maneuvers. If you can get your hands on disarming Sai's that will allow you to have no penalty at disarm 'and' negate any bonus your opponent might have.

[Story]

Monk doesn't need to be a skill monkey, just pump your points into tumble.


I was joking that the reason they don't feat spellcasters is because they are too stupid to do so.

[Greenish]

Monk 4/SLT Barb 1/Fist of the Forest 1/(Fotf 2/Bear warrior 1/Warshaper 4/x).I'm a big fan of FotF, Bear Warrior, and Warshaper, but I'm not sure what those monk levels are doing there.

[Namfuak]

I'm a big fan of FotF, Bear Warrior, and Warshaper, but I'm not sure what those monk levels are doing there.

Mostly bringing down the build.

[Malroth]

Warlock 6 with the eldtitch claw feat. Then go Shou Desciple with Beast Strike improved natural attack claw and improved natural attack unarmed strike.

[Man on Fire]

There are several ways to approach this. You are aware of the general regard Monks are held in, no? I would hope you must be, but people surprise me often. Your question presents me with three options.

1) You aren't aware of the fact that Monks are nearly universally considered to be terrible, and you specifically want to play a capital-M Monk.
2) You aren't aware of the fact that Monks are terrible, but you are interested in making an unarmed martial artist character, who may or may not be a Monk.
3) You are aware of the fact that Monks are terrible, and you specifically want to play a capital-M Monk for whatever reason (a self-imposed challenge, sheer bloody-mindedness, or something of that nature).

I must choose to ignore the possibility that you are aware of the fact that Monks are terrible but want to play an unarmed martial artist character, because you would have phrased this rather differently. Anyway, which is it? Are you playing a Monk because you think Monks are good? Are you playing a Monk because you just want the Monk-style archetype? Or are you playing a Monk just to prove that you can? The answer will greatly affect what kind of advice is appropriate.

Just as important, of course, is the standard battery of questions. What level are you starting at? Do you have any banned sources? How high-op is your group? Etc., etc., etc.

Am I the only one who finds this post to be rude, in passive-agressive way?

OP:
Monk's are hard class to master and not that good on themselves, but they can work pretty well, when combined with other things.
First of all, Fist of the Forest Prestige Class - Con to AC, Str increase, faster unarmed damage increase - unless you're going into combinign monk with arcane, divine or psionic, take it. And, if I can suggest something, there is one very intereting build:
Half Orc Paragon 3/Monk 4/FotF 3/Bear Warrior 5/Warshaper 5 - you are now Half Orc with ability to rage, who can turn into KUNG FU BEAR! Even better option is Monk 4/Barbarian 3 entry but it might be harder to explain in the story as to why your monk abbandonned his path.

Tashalatora is a good feat that basically make one Psioncic class of your choice PrC. I advise not taking easiest option and going Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18, because this may let you create much funier builds.

Consider picking up a template. Broodguard or Half-Minotaur might be pretty good.

Kensai is good PrC for Monks.

[GreenSerpent]

What I'm doing in a Forgotten Realms game is:

Frostblood Orc Monk 2/Half-Orc Paragon 3/Fist of the Forest 3/Runescarred Berserker 10/Bear Warrior 2. He's being allowed to qualify for Half-Orc Paragon because he grew up among the human Rashemi Berserkers. Looks to be powerful, fun, and a definite step up on Monk. Very feat heavy though.

[Greenish]

Am I the only one who finds this post to be rude, in passive-agressive way?Yes, you probably are.

[Man on Fire]

Yes, you probably are.

Haf of the post is devoted to indirect mockery of the op for wanting to play a monk, how is that not rude?

[Greenish]

Haf of the post is devoted to indirect mockery of the op for wanting to play a monk, how is that not rude?That's not how I read it. I mean, asking what people are trying to achieve and why is pretty standard for threads for character building advice.

[Kaeso]

My advice for your first monk? Just play it. Just throw it together and pick whatever seems useful.

The "experts" here may keep shouting and ranting that the monk is terrible, but you will never understand exactly how horribad it is without having used one. Once you've actually played a monk, realize your stats aren't high enough for your abilities and realize that even with full 18's you'd suck, then you have reached enlightenment.

[Curmudgeon]

The "experts" here may keep shouting and ranting that the monk is terrible, but you will never understand exactly how horribad it is without having used one.
A smart man learns from his mistakes, and doesn't repeat them.

A wise man also learns from others' mistakes, and doesn't feel compelled to repeat those mistakes, either.

[ken-do-nim]

Try to convince your DM to allow the "unarmed damage" to become "monk special weapon damage". A monk can remain viable a lot longer if he can flurry with a weapon and do his full damage with it. It might not have been the designer's intent for the monk pc to drool over +3 cold iron holy nunchuks, but the amulet of mighty fists just doesn't cut it.

If not that, ask that the prestige class Kensai be fully wrapped into levels 9-18 of monk, i.e. he gets those powers in addition to what he already gets. Ignore the class requirements, base attack and saves, and signature weapon xp costs.

If both of those get shot down, ask that the weapon ability 'ki focus' also extend to including the monk's unarmed damage.

[Greenish]

Try to convince your DM to allow the "unarmed damage" to become "monk special weapon damage". A monk can remain viable a lot longer if he can flurry with a weapon and do his full damage with it. It might not have been the designer's intent for the monk pc to drool over +3 cold iron holy nunchuks, but the amulet of mighty fists just doesn't cut it.

If not that, ask that the prestige class Kensai be fully wrapped into levels 9-18 of monk, i.e. he gets those powers in addition to what he already gets. Ignore the class requirements, base attack and saves, and signature weapon xp costs.

If both of those get shot down, ask that the weapon ability 'ki focus' also extend to including the monk's unarmed damage.There's Scorpion Kama from MIC that gets monk unarmed damage. Savage Species also has the Necklace of Natural Weapons.

[ken-do-nim]

There's Scorpion Kama from MIC that gets monk unarmed damage. Savage Species also has the Necklace of Natural Weapons.

Thanks for the tip on Scorpion Kama; that's a book I have. Savage Species - isn't that a 3.0 book? Didn't think it was legal in a 3.5 game. Sold my copy years ago.

[Man on Fire]

A smart man learns from his mistakes, and doesn't repeat them.

A wise man also learns from others' mistakes, and doesn't feel compelled to repeat those mistakes, either.

And the inventor dos it anyway and falls as many times he needs until he finds a solution.

[dascarletm]

A smart man learns from his mistakes, and doesn't repeat them.

A wise man also learns from others' mistakes, and doesn't feel compelled to repeat those mistakes, either.

It's bad relative to other classes! My longest campaign was from 1-30, and the two players were a fighter and a monk. They did just fine, neither players felt weak.

The world is relative to the players, unless it isn't, but usually it is.:smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

Savage Species - isn't that a 3.0 book? Didn't think it was legal in a 3.5 game.
For that particular magic item you don't need Savage Species. The Savage Species Necklace of Natural Weapons has been updated in a 3.5 web article as the Necklace of Natural Attacks; see here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a).

[ken-do-nim]

For that particular magic item you don't need Savage Species. The Savage Species Necklace of Natural Weapons has been updated in a 3.5 web article as the Necklace of Natural Attacks; see here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a).

Thanks for that; though whether necklace or amulet, the monk needs to save that slot for a periapt of wisdom.

[Andezzar]

Thanks for that; though whether necklace or amulet, the monk needs to save that slot for a periapt of wisdom.MIC p. 233 f. (Adding Common Item Effects to Existing Items) to the rescue.

Where's the Chas Monk from?

[Curmudgeon]

...
One option is the Chaos Monk (Dragon # 335, page 89), a class rewrite which gives the Monk an overall performance boost at the cost of predictability. ...

Where's the Chas Monk from?
Reading is fundamental. :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

I see 2 ways:
1. Take only 2 levels of monk then go into 1 of 100 builds you'll find all over the place here.

2. Monk 20. All those class features may seem confusing, but your main ones are flurry and special attacks. The rest are minor and don't matter. Use them when you can, but otherwise ignore them and never ever build around them.

Ability scores: str > con > wis > dex > int > cha.

Get a weapon. Let that sink in for about 30 seconds, I'll wait... ok, done? It hits more and does more damage. Ok? Ok. Your unarmed strike damage does however combine well with grappling or stunning fist. Besides giving you a higher chance of starting a grapple, having several attacks combines well with tripping or disarming. More attempts on disables is very nice. For that matter consider TWF if you go tripping, because attack bonus penalties aren't that harsh on touch attacks. TWF + flurry + trips is allowed; simply use kamas.

Buffs are amazing on you; they stack even better than they do on other classes. Prod your caster allies no matter what the class, because every caster class has nice buffs for you. Even without a mage get potions of mage armor and potions of enlarge person; they're cheap. Due to the duration drink mage armor at the dungeon entrance rather than waiting for a fight. At low levels shillelagh oil on a quarterstaff is also nice for damage.

There, bam, that's how you learn to avoid monk traps in about 2 minutes of reading. If you're playing a core or low optimization game you should be fine. For higher optimization, see #1.

[Man on Fire]

There was 3rd edition handbook that gave monks a lot of cool stuff, didn't it? I heard that if you get your DM to allow it in 3.5 game, Monk is much improved.


I'm a big fan of FotF, Bear Warrior, and Warshaper, but I'm not sure what those monk levels are doing there


Mostly bringing down the build.

And, you know, qualifing you to punch incoropteral creatures.

[Sith_Happens]

For that particular magic item you don't need Savage Species. The Savage Species Necklace of Natural Weapons has been updated in a 3.5 web article as the Necklace of Natural Attacks; see here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a).

*checks article*


The enhancement bonus on this necklace is applied to attack and damage rolls involving one or more of the wearer's natural weapons. In addition, any weapon special quality applied to this necklace also applies to those natural weapons. For instance, a +1 throwing returning necklace of natural weapons would apply its enhancement bonus as well as the throwing and returning special abilities to one or more of the wearer's natural weapons.

Wait, they actually used throwing returning natural weapons as the example? That is officially awesome.

[Gray Mage]

And, you know, qualifing you to punch incoropteral creatures.

Ki strike only works for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction, though, so you wouldn't be able to punch incorporeal creatures. Unless there's an ACF I'm not aware of.

[Muktidata]

*checks article*



Wait, they actually used throwing returning natural weapons as the example? That is officially awesome.

Yeah, but it's so much cheaper (8,100g) to get a permanency'ed +5 Magic Fang cast on you. From there just UMD a wand of Bloodwind. 8850g all-together.

[Namfuak]

There was 3rd edition handbook that gave monks a lot of cool stuff, didn't it? I heard that if you get your DM to allow it in 3.5 game, Monk is much improved.





And, you know, qualifing you to punch incoropteral creatures.

I suppose that's technically true, but I have a necklace of natural attacks for that and more. The previous suggestion of giving monks the kensai ability to add magic enhancements to their fists isn't a bad one though - perhaps they could get a +1 bonus every three levels, capping at +5 at 15.

[Man on Fire]

Ki strike only works for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction, though, so you wouldn't be able to punch incorporeal creatures. Unless there's an ACF I'm not aware of.

Fist of the Forest has similair ability to Ki Strike, but if you already has Ki Strike when you get it, it allows you to hit incoropteral creatures instead.

[KillingAScarab]

I have one bit of wisdom about monks to share. Make sure at later levels you have some way to get out of a grapple, even if you do not attempt to grapple. All the things which increase your AC while you're unarmored? They don't work if you're immobilized or helpless. I watched an epic level monk get ripped apart since the DM felt pinned was close enough to immobilized.


Wait, they actually used throwing returning natural weapons as the example? That is officially awesome....what?

Throwing can only be placed upon melee weapons. What do you do, throw your entire body and then return to where you were standing?

As for returning, the manticore's spikes are the only thing I can think of which might qualify as a ranged natural attack, and even with the limit to 24 per day, there's no reason to want them to come back to you unless it's ruled they reattach to the tail.

[Gavinfoxx]

I watched an epic level monk get ripped apart since the DM felt pinned was close enough to immobilized.

Well, there's nothing you can do if the GM is cheating like that... but why didn't he have a Ring of Freedom of Movement??

And he might be able to fling his whole body places, perhaps.

That would be useful.

Also, it could be like those fighting games where there is that guy with the stretching arms and legs.

Or it could be energy / ghostly fists striking out against someone. Whatever.

[ArcturusV]

That Finger Darts spell from Book of Vile Darkness? Then you could have a ranged attack with a natural weapon (your own fingers) that return back to your hand? :smallbiggrin: Nah, probably not, but it's a thought.

[Curmudgeon]

Get a weapon. Let that sink in for about 30 seconds, I'll wait... ok, done? It hits more and does more damage.
I think that's bad advice for someone who's actually interested in playing a Monk. The single best thing about the Monk's unarmed damage is that it scales with level. What weapon deals out 2d10 base damage? :smallconfused: If we're talking about only a tiny dip into Monk your advice makes more sense, but that's not what the OP asked for. We've already established that the Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) will let you spiff up the Monk's unarmed attack just like a manufactured weapon (same cost, same enhancements), so there's no advantage on the weapon front (except very briefly, when you can afford a masterwork weapon for +300 gp before you have the funds for a +1 enhancement).

Also, the Monk's unarmed damage is the easiest part of the class to improve. Just a single casting of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon, page 115) daily from the party Wizard/Sorcerer will boost the Monk's unarmed damage, maxing out at effective Colossal size. Add in the standard Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) and the Medium size level 20 Monk deals 16d8 damage on every kick or punch, before any other magic.

[ericgrau]

What weapon deals out 2d10 base damage?
At level 20, any magic weapon easily does more than 2d10, or even 2d10+5. With a necklace of natural attacks providing the same special enchantments as a magic weapon, ya it's better. But that would mean you're trying to play a monk 20 with splatbooks... and somehow you're keeping up with others who also have splatbooks? I suppose it all depends where you draw the line on optimization, since an arbitrary amount of damage is possible with any melee. This is a system where a level 1 kobold can be a god, after all.

And at that point you're talking 8 more points of damage on a build that does hundreds. Then you may as well make a toothpick your main weapon, makes no difference either way whether you use a weapon or not.

When I discuss I don't take it as a normal baseline assumption for players to be dealing over a thousand damage or anything like that. Most people I'd play with wouldn't allow that, and I think that's the norm. Some do, but it becomes rocket tag and as a game I'd think that makes fun suffer. Most complaints I see posted about dealing low damage are referring to double digits, not quadruple. Most casual players do not play with things like a necklace of natural attacks, or those threads wouldn't exist in the first place.

So I'm now noticing Sam's only post in this thread is the first one. Sam, it would be helpful to get an idea of your group's optimization level, books available, level, etc. Even if the optimization level doesn't fall to either extreme, it would help people give an idea what they can suggest to help you out.

[Mato]

You don't have to be a 20th level Monk to net 2d10 Unarmed Damage. Monk's Belt gives +5 to your level, FoF improves your Unarmed Damage twice per Monk, etc. It's actually pretty trivial to hit 2d10.

Secondly, no other weapon passes this 2d10. I think you might have this idea a +5 Large Greatsword's 3d6+5 (avg 15.5) is superior since it is both Enchanted and bigger than normal, but who says you cannot Enhance Unarmed Strike in the same way? In fact, if +5 & Large were applied that's 4d8+5 (avg 23) which doubles the original gap (2d7=7, 4d8=11, 4 point difference).

Thirdly. Items such as the Necklace of Natural Weapons, Battlefist, and even the Amulet of Mighty Fists all transfer their Enhancement bonuses to your Unarmed Strike, and then in turn your enchanted Scorpion's Kama deals them all. The ability to enchant up to four different items (plus magic weapon/fang for a fifth) is a tremendous boon. For example, a +5 Holy/Flaming/Frost/Shock weapon costs 200,000gp, however using a +5 Necklace & +1 Holy/Faming/Frost/Shock Scorpion Kama costs a little over 122,000gp and your Unarmed benefits from all of them. That's around a 60% reduction in costs allowing to you simply afford more bonuses (or other useful magical items, like flight).

Simply put. There is no weapon better than Unarmed Strike.

[Gavinfoxx]

So now we are talking about badass weapons, eh?

Top this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9727.0

[Derpldorf]

Place your ancestral relic weapon of legacy Battle-fist on your item familiar Mighty Arms Graft...