Am I Cheating with Illusions?

[WebMonk]

I'm playing an Illusionist (Gnome, of course) and have been doing something that seems to be almost overpowered in practice for a 1st-3rd level character.

I cast an illusion of a black ball around the enemies head and play really loud screams in his ears. I've said that (if he doesn't see through the illusion) the victim is blinded and deaf and DM agreed. I even managed to convince him that it blocks darkvision since it's an illusion of a solid material, not merely an illusion of darkness.

I think that's all fine, but it seems pretty strong for a second level spell effect. Am I missing something?

It was really effective in several encounters, heck the first level spell of Silent Image is awesomely effective when used like that, especially coming from a first level character.

Another place I'm starting to possibly cheat is in combining it with my invisibility.

I make the Minor Image in a square next to the target so I don't break my invisibility, and then move it to cover his head and shoulders, constantly moving it so that it remains centered on his head. I keep my invisibility!

I can only do it to one target at a time since I have to keep Concentration on it, but it's still crazy effective, especially with single encounters. Is this all fine?

[Silva Stormrage]

I believe that works. The creature would get a will save each round to resist and disbelieve the illusion.

[satorian]

I had the same guilty conscience. beat a warforged juggernaut by blinding it with silent image. Not much of a will save have they.

[Skrobo]

Well, the spell was obviously not intended for this use, but I believe it goes under "clever use of mechanics". I only disagree with your DM on the deafen part since that is a "special" condition on D&D. Minor image says that it produces sound, but there is no indicator on what of mundane sound causes someone to go deaf nor what is the power of the spell. A -5/-10 penalty to listen looks more appropriate.

Furthermore, keep in mind that fights are done at almost "board game" rules. You can cast this "blindness/deafness" spell and your target can just move 20 feet towards you, outside the spell effect, and hit you on the head with his weapon.

Finally, regarding invisibility, I believe it is something you have to talk about it with your DM. In my perspective, you have clearly taken an offensive action, since it requires a person to make a save and thus invisibility expires. Sadly the guidelines for invisibility are not crystal clear.

[Daftendirekt]

I'm playing an Illusionist (Gnome, of course) and have been doing something that seems to be almost overpowered in practice for a 1st-3rd level character.

I cast an illusion of a black ball around the enemies head and play really loud screams in his ears. I've said that (if he doesn't see through the illusion) the victim is blinded and deaf and DM agreed. I even managed to convince him that it blocks darkvision since it's an illusion of a solid material, not merely an illusion of darkness.

I think that's all fine, but it seems pretty strong for a second level spell effect. Am I missing something?

It was really effective in several encounters, heck the first level spell of Silent Image is awesomely effective when used like that, especially coming from a first level character.

Another place I'm starting to possibly cheat is in combining it with my invisibility.

I make the Minor Image in a square next to the target so I don't break my invisibility, and then move it to cover his head and shoulders, constantly moving it so that it remains centered on his head. I keep my invisibility!

I can only do it to one target at a time since I have to keep Concentration on it, but it's still crazy effective, especially with single encounters. Is this all fine?

If you were using Silent Image the part with the screaming in his ears shouldn't have been possible (Silent Image after all), but other than that, if the DM says it works, it works. That's the up side AND the down side to most illusion spells -- how and if they work is largely left up to DM adjudication.

[ericgrau]

Proof that it's fake, such as touching or prodding it, auto passes his save making it transparent. "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw". There are other ways to block vision that look real and can be out of his reach, so then he'd have to save or try to break the "object". With a save each round it's not the most powerful thing in the world even when it works, but you do have to put some work into making it plausible.

On the flipside if you make the illusion subtle enough that the enemy doesn't examine it, he doesn't get a save. Those illusions are beastly.

Minor image also says "minor sounds" so blocking out all other noise is unlikely. Major image maybe.

[Gnome Alone]

Illusion, the most open-ended of schools, ends up being pretty dependent on DM interpretations.

Personally, I'd be tempted to give a circumstance bonus to the save; "Funny, I don't remember putting on the Helmet of Sensory Deprivation & Torture."

[nedz]

There are more powerful ways to use illusions than just targeting one individual, and it's not even lethal. The Deafness seems unreasonable but you could certainly upset their concentration. Also, since it's an attack your invisibility should go down.

[WebMonk]

I wasn't clear there. Sorry everyone.

The "deafened" only lasted as long as the illusion was intact.

I had forgotten (honestly!) that direct proof that something was an illusion immediately breaks the illusion. My DM was ruling that they got a +4 to their Will save just like if one of their companions had seen through the illusion.

Bummer. I'll let him know.

I was using Minor Image to generate the black ball and noise. Though not specifically stated, I argued that it would be able to generate the noise of Ghost Sounds - four people per CL. Having 12 people yelling (when I was able to cast the spell at level 3) right into his ears would keep him functionally deafened while it lasts.

Most of the initial foes were things like Orcs, Goblins, Humans, etc. With a DC of 18 and a negative to their Will saves, they almost never broke through the illusion.

The other illusion I was able to cast to good effect was to do an illusion of a summoning. I had an illusion of a Celestial Lion that I maintained Concentration on to have it dodge all attacks against it. It soaked up a few rounds of attacks while someone dragged our cleric who had found himself in combat and was down to negative points.

Any suggestions for other combat-useful illusions to cast?

[UnjustCustos]

I fail to see how it is proof of illusion. From the victim's point of view blindness has been cast upon him.

[WalkingTarget]

I had the idea for something similar in a Deadlands: Hell on Earth game I played in many years ago.

I played a Syker (with a Psionics specialization) and I had a wonderful idea. I saved it until the time was right. We came up against a major, but still human bad guy. Waited for my moment, then used Hallucination (a powerful illusion ability without an auto-fail if the target knows its fake) on him. Boom! Head in an imaginary safe. Cue bad guy trying to navigate a gunfight in a forest without being able to see or hear anything. Sure, all I could do every action was stay within range of him and pass my brainburn checks to maintain the power, but it let the rest of the posse deal with the fight.

There was then a gentleman's agreement to not do something that... disruptive again. I'd say you're fine as long as there's some thought given to the ability of the target to figure out it's an illusion.

[Piggy Knowles]

What is to stop your opponent from simply walking out of the illusion on her turn? Sure, you can move it back the next round, but that seems like it would dramatically reduce this trick's usefulness.

[Cirrylius]

Proof that it's fake, such as touching or prodding it, auto passes his save making it transparent. "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw".
Make it an illusion of a dense cloud? Can't prod something intangible:smallcool:

[icefractal]

It's not direct proof. If you made an illusion of solid stone surrounding them and then they waved their arm through it, that would be direct proof, but "screaming darkness" is totally a thing that can exist in D&D, and the fact that it has no physical mass is actually what you'd expect. In fact, I don't even think they get a bonus to see through it, unless they knew you were an illusionist or someone told them.

The tricky part here is trying to keep it centered on their head. IMO, you'd need to ready your action every turn for that, and also make some kind of opposed check (Int vs Dex, probably) to keep it in place. If you settled for a huge cloud of darkness, you wouldn't have that issue though, and you'd be able to see through it (your allies would still need to save, but they'd get the +4).

Hardest to see through case - make an illusion of a fog cloud around yourself. Since Fog Cloud is a thing Wizards actually cast, nobody's even going to get a save unless they walk over and interact with it closely, and ranged attacks won't help because they'd go through it if it were real anyway.

[WebMonk]

but "screaming darkness" is totally a thing that can exist in D&D
That made me LOL for real! It's so true! I'm going to suggest this with my DM. No +4 bonuses for you!


The tricky part here is trying to keep it centered on their head. IMO, you'd need to ready your action every turn for that, and also make some kind of opposed check (Int vs Dex, probably) to keep it in place.
I was spending all my activity keeping it centered anyway, and if my DM thinks having a "screaming darkness" without a bonus to save is too much, I'll offer this as a modifier.

Two of my party are Barbarians with a +1 to their Will save. Even with a +4 to their Will save they would still need to roll a 13+, so I don't want to start doing broad-swathe effects relying on my party to see through with the +4 bonus to help. If I were in a party of clerics or paladins, then sure. :smallsmile:

[ericgrau]

Make it an illusion of a dense cloud? Can't prod something intangible:smallcool:
If it's wider than 5 feet that works, but then it starts affecting others too, not just him. Smaller clouds can be seen through.

Whichever you choose since the save is based on belief it must be something semi-realistic or that might lead to proof of fakeness too. It could be a flying pink elephant. But it must be something that you can make seem like it exists.


"screaming darkness" is totally a thing that can exist in D&D
Ah that makes the bigger problem more apparent:


"This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you"



This spell functions like silent image, except

Darkness is not an object or creature. "Force" is kind of vague but I don't think that includes darkness. Probably refers to what force effects look like.

[Gnome Alone]

"Magical darkness sonic torture blob" seems like it could qualify as an object. Sure, darkness is just the absence of light, but by the same token, fire's a chemical reaction, not a object, creature or force - whoa, is fire not a valid RAW Silent Image?

[ericgrau]

Shrink item treats fire with fuel like an object, so that might be ok. I dunno though.

A living creature of pure darkness without any tactile substance sounds like a bit of a stretch, even in D&D.

[Gnome Alone]

It also sounds like something a goth metal band would do a concept album about.

[HunterOfJello]

Silent Image would require you to Concentrate every round to keep the image on the person's head (that's your Standard Action each round being used up). Silent Image provides only visual illusions, so there would be no screaming and the person would not be deafened.


If you want to add sound into an Image spell, you need Minor Image instead. (Although the interpretation of what a "minor sound" is would be up the DM.)

If you want the target to not hear anything then you need to cast Silence in the area or cast Blindness/Deafness. (Silence on an arrow and then shoot them with the arrow is a better sort of method.)

If you want full sound then you need to use Major Image, which will let you put in screaming that includes discernible words.

If you want the spell to do these things without constantly concentrating on it, then you need to use Persistent Image.

~

So, yes you were cheating. The spell was being given a long list of additional properties that it is clearly not meant to possess at such a low level.