Malak's attitude?

[Red Lantern]

It seems odd that brother malak seems to prefer being a vampire, yet still seems to admit what he did to durkon was bad. Anyone else get this vibe?

[theNater]

Malack's objection to being destroyed and raised was that it would annihilate the person he is now. Killing Durkon and bringing him back as a vampire similarly annihilates the person Durkon was.

[Roland Itiative]

Malack's objection to being destroyed and raised was that it would annihilate the person he is now. Killing Durkon and bringing him back as a vampire similarly annihilates the person Durkon was.
This. He even acknowledges this by referring to the original Durkon as the "Durkon that was" in the most recent strip.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, we don't know exactly how Malack came to be a vampire. Odds are it wasn't by choice. However, he's had a long time to accept his transformation and now is fully content by his state of immortality.

That doesn't mean he still doesn't recognize that turning Durkon against his will was a pretty crappy thing to do to someone. Even if he thinks that Durkon will get over it in time.

[Roland Itiative]

By the way, the way Malack talked about remembering how his siblings tasted like makes me think he knows very well how it feels to have your vampire "father" force you to kill people you cared for in life.

[Clertar]

IRT Roland

Not necessarily, the Vampire template seems to change alignment to Evil, and that is probably also reflected in the rest of the person's cognition: someone who gets lobotomized is still the same person, but in many ways they can change a lot. I see the effect of vampirism in a similar fashion (only in the inverse relation, as you become more acute mentally) with an evil turn.

[Rakoa]

IRT Roland

Not necessarily, the Vampire template seems to change alignment to Evil, and that is probably also reflected in the rest of the person's cognition: someone who gets lobotomized is still the same person, but in many ways they can change a lot. I see the effect of vampirism in a similar fashion (only in the inverse relation, as you become more acute mentally) with an evil turn.

I really like this analogy. I think it fits very well with what a transformation to Vampire should be like. Well done in coming up with it. I will certainly be using the example in the future, should it come up.

[Fates]

Seems somewhat odd, too, considering how he was "usually against" animating anonymous corpses as mummies, but was willing to vamp-up his new, undead-smacking best bud, being fully aware that switching him to an evil alignment would completely change who he was.

And just to note (though it's likely that Rich isn't using these rules), the official D&D text seems to say that a vampire's spawn, though capable of free, intelligent thought, still remain loyal to their parent vampire, similar to Charm X spells.

[Chad30]

I figured even if he was given free will, he still wouldn't be able to attack Malack. I look forward to what Rich is going to do to Durkon's character.

Malack may feel like even though it was painful, it was for the best in the end. In his opinion it was good for Durkon, as far as their relationships go, like giving someone their shots and making them eat nutritious foods they don't like.

[dps]

Keep in mind that Malack didn't want to fight Durkon in the first place, much less kill him.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Keep in mind that Malack didn't want to fight Durkon in the first place, much less kill him.

He preferred not to, that is different from not wanting to I think. Like if I prefer chocolate to vanilla, that doesn't mean I dislike vanilla.

[Mike Havran]

I think Malack originally considered living Durkon as a friend and wasn't thinking about vamping him. But 872 showed there can no longer be friendship or compromise between them. So he needed to kill the living Durkon to make place for vampire Durkon - he considers them to be two different persons. His "tragedy visited a friend" comment is made with respect to living Durkon, who is gone.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I don't mean to seem hair-splitty, I think that is an important distinction. Malack's first choice wasn't to fight, but he was totally willing to fight and kill Durkon if it came to it (and it did). He could have avoided fighting if he really didn't want to.

[Zar Peter]

I don't mean to seem hair-splitty, I think that is an important distinction. Malack's first choice wasn't to fight, but he was totally willing to fight and kill Durkon if it came to it (and it did). He could have avoided fighting if he really didn't want to.

Actually it was Durkon who thought that fight is inevitable. Malack is evil so for him killing someone he likes isn't completely out of the way. So, from my point of view Malack did everything to avoid this but in the end it was the only way for him.

[Kish]

Actually it was Durkon who thought that fight is inevitable. Malack is evil so for him killing someone he likes isn't completely out of the way. So, from my point of view Malack did everything to avoid this but in the end it was the only way for him.
...Uh.

What?

Either Malack did everything he could have done to avoid a fight (insupportable) or he didn't do everything he could have done to avoid a fight because, being evil, he was willing to kill someone he considered a friend (overtly factual). You appear to be trying to argue both at once.

[Tragak]

Seems somewhat odd, too, considering how he was "usually against" animating anonymous corpses as mummies, but was willing to vamp-up his new, undead-smacking best bud, being fully aware that switching him to an evil alignment would completely change who he was.

Actually, he mostly seemed opposed to using fellow undead as mindless slaves to be sent back to their deaths for the convenience of the living.

[dps]

Actually it was Durkon who thought that fight is inevitable. Malack is evil so for him killing someone he likes isn't completely out of the way. So, from my point of view Malack did everything to avoid this but in the end it was the only way for him.

Even good-aligned characters may have to kill someone they like.

[Zar Peter]

I just wanted to state that, in Malacks view, he did everything to compromise but Durkon didn't accept so he had to die.

[rodneyAnonymous]

he did everything to compromise but Durkon didn't accept so he had to die.

No I disagree. He offered a few compromises, not "everything", and they were all heavily in his favor and unacceptable to Durkon. Durkon did not accept those compromises, they all involved "not destroying the vampire", which Durkon was not going to budge on.

Not offering acceptable compromises isn't the same as trying everything to avoid fighting. It was only an offer of a few things. (And none of them were things Durkon wanted.)

[Rakoa]

No I disagree. He offered a few compromises, not "everything", and they were all heavily in his favor and unacceptable to Durkon. Durkon did not accept those compromises, they all involved "not destroying the vampire", which Durkon was not going to budge on.

Not offering acceptable compromises isn't the same as trying everything to avoid fighting. It was only an offer of a few things. (And none of them were things Durkon wanted.)

Yes, they weren't compromises Durkon would have accepted, but they were compromises. He tried to reason with Durkon and he failed. You say he didn't offer "everything", which is quite true, as he didn't offer himself to be destroyed. Why in the hell would he ever do that? He offered plenty of other compromises.

[Themrys]

Yes, they weren't compromises Durkon would have accepted, but they were compromises. He tried to reason with Durkon and he failed. You say he didn't offer "everything", which is quite true, as he didn't offer himself to be destroyed. Why in the hell would he ever do that? He offered plenty of other compromises.

He only offered two compromises: "Let's not harm each other" and "Let's not fight" The last offer he made "Flee with your party" was not a compromise, since it would favour him. Arguably, the first two don't really count since Tarquin has a lot more healing potions and the like than the OotS.

He could have offered to withdraw from the battle himself but let Durkon heal the OotS. He had already gotten separated from his party, so an explanation why he isn't there anymore would not have been needed.

[Silva Stormrage]

He only offered two compromises: "Let's not harm each other" and "Let's not fight" The last offer he made "Flee with your party" was not a compromise, since it would favour him. Arguably, the first two don't really count since Tarquin has a lot more healing potions and the like than the OotS.

He could have offered to withdraw from the battle himself but let Durkon heal the OotS. He had already gotten separated from his party, so an explanation why he isn't there anymore would not have been needed.

Not commenting on the whole "Did Malack offer enough" but by your own logic offering to leave while Durkon stays isn't a compromise either since it favors Durkon. That stops being a compromise since Durkon isn't losing anything it would simply be a concession to avoid fighting.

[Forum Explorer]

I think Malack originally considered living Durkon as a friend and wasn't thinking about vamping him. But 872 showed there can no longer be friendship or compromise between them. So he needed to kill the living Durkon to make place for vampire Durkon - he considers them to be two different persons. His "tragedy visited a friend" comment is made with respect to living Durkon, who is gone.

That's the vibe I got too. Malack considers vamped Durkon and living Durkon to be two separate individuals. Which is partly why he says that raising him is essentially killing him (also I think the age still counts, and 200 years added onto a lizardfolk would just kill it anyways)

[VanaGalen]

Malack has shown on many occasions his highly lawful character. He really respect wishes and opinions of his friends. Malack tried peace talks first, but Durkon made it very clear from the beginning that the only acceptable solution would be to kill and res Malack (probably destroying vampire-Malack irretrievably). When Durkon firmly stated there is no other option, he honored Durkon's wishes and fought with him to death. I think fleeing to avoid the fight doesn't seem like something Malack would do. He seems to care more about respecting his friends' opinions than their wellbeing in general.

Now, when Durkon was already dead, his body was of no use to anyone. Malack is known for recycling of body parts no longer needed by their owners (body fluids in that case), so why shouldn't he use Durkon's body to create new, happy vampire?

[The Pilgrim]

Malack liked Durkon as a friend, so he attemped to avoid the fight. Since he could not reach an agreement favorable for the unLizard's interests, he had to kill a friend to advance his agenda.

After doing that, raising Durkon as a vampire was a way to minimize loss (for his interests). "I lost a friend, but at least I can scrap a fine vampire companion".

Of course, if he had the bare minimum respect for his friend, he would send his corpse back to the dwarven homeland - as Durkon would have want - instead of doing the single most humiliating thing he could do to Durkon - turn his corpse into everything the dwarf depised, denying his corpse it's proper resting place among his ancestors in the process.

But Malack is evil, so his own selfish interests come way first than respect for the dignity of a friend.

[Mike Havran]

Of course, if he had the bare minimum respect for his friend, he would send his corpse back to the dwarven homeland - as Durkon would have want - instead of doing the single most humiliating thing he could do to Durkon - turn his corpse into everything the dwarf depised, denying his corpse it's proper resting place among his ancestors in the process.

But Malack is evil, so his own selfish interests come way first than respect for the dignity of a friend.

So Malack should do something like this:
1. Break from the grapple, possibly earning Cure Critical Wounds for his effort.

2. Finish off Durkon with neither his unlimited energy drain nor vamp-bite, wasting some Inflict Serious Wounds in the process. Not to mention a lot of things could go wrong, like his fellows appearing around the corner.

3. Carry Durkon's body with himself all the time they are in pyramid, to prevent the Order from using Raise Dead scroll.

4. Then Gentle Repose it, put it in the coffin and send it across the desert and the ocean somewhere...uh...to Northern Continent, some dwarven settlement. Yeah.

:nale: That would be needlessly complicated.

[Gift Jeraff]

I keep reading the thread title as Malack's altitude.

[The Pilgrim]

It's funny how people keep using Miko's monk abilty to jump as far as you want with conclusions. Her spirit will truly be among us forever. :smallsigh:

[theNater]

So Malack should do something like this:
1. Break from the grapple, possibly earning Cure Critical Wounds for his effort.

2. Finish off Durkon with neither his unlimited energy drain nor vamp-bite, wasting some Inflict Serious Wounds in the process. Not to mention a lot of things could go wrong, like his fellows appearing around the corner.
Malack can kill him with the vamp-bite, then behead the corpse and fill its mouth with garlic, preventing it from becoming a vampire.

3. Carry Durkon's body with himself all the time they are in pyramid, to prevent the Order from using Raise Dead scroll.
You remember that there was a plan to put Roy's corpse in a Bag of Holding at one point, right? Corpse storage is not generally an issue for high level characters.

4. Then Gentle Repose it, put it in the coffin and send it across the desert and the ocean somewhere...uh...to Northern Continent, some dwarven settlement. Yeah.
Or, y'know, write a letter to the high priest of Thor, who can presumably send someone to pick up the corpse. It may require recasting Gentle Repose a few times, but it's only a second level spell.

:nale: That would be needlessly complicated.
Indeed, which is why I provided some simplifying suggestions.

[The Pilgrim]

So Malack should do something like this:

1) Kill him
2) Flame Strike
3) Bag the ashes
4) Mail them to High Priest of Thor

[Mike Havran]

Malack can kill him with the vamp-bite, then behead the corpse and fill its mouth with garlic, preventing it from becoming a vampire.

The idea that Malack carries garlic of holy wafers for the purpose of preventing somebody to become a vampire is...well...:smallamused:


You remember that there was a plan to put Roy's corpse in a Bag of Holding at one point, right? Corpse storage is not generally an issue for high level characters.

Well, Haley is quite fond of them, but she is about the only person we have seen so far. No reason to assume Malack has one as well.


Or, y'know, write a letter to the high priest of Thor, who can presumably send someone to pick up the corpse. It may require recasting Gentle Repose a few times, but it's only a second level spell.

The letter is a good idea, but unless Malack has his address in his Macebook, it's still pretty implausible for the messenger to roam the whole continent. IMHO, even only a few dwarves - possibly clerics of Tor as well - know where he resides.

As for the Flame Strike, even if Malack had one remaining, I doubt it will be enough to burn a body to ashes.

[Yaije9841]

Hope Durkon Accepted Malak's Friend request on Macebook (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html)

[B.I.T.T.]

The fight between Malak and Durkon was inevitable. For all his offers of compromise, none of the options Malak offered involved the Linear Guild retreating from taking the gate. Malak was trying to convince Durkon either to give up entirely or to not aid his friends in combat. This for Durkon wasn't an option.

As for Malak's attitude...well...I think he knows that Durkon is never going to be his old beer-drinkin', tree-hatin', accent-havin' self. He will change, and will never be the same Durkon again. There's a sense of loss with Malak in that because he considered Durkon a friend. I don't think in necessarily has to do with vampirism being bad or good. Especially since, as an evil character, concerns of good and evil really don't come into play. His concerns are more of self-interest. Malak wanted A but he had to settle with B.

[Yaije9841]

To be fair, Malak doesn't exactly control the Linear guild, that's Nale and by extension Tarquin's thing.

Really.. who can control Tarquin?

[F.Harr]

He only offered two compromises: "Let's not harm each other" and "Let's not fight" The last offer he made "Flee with your party" was not a compromise, since it would favour him. Arguably, the first two don't really count since Tarquin has a lot more healing potions and the like than the OotS.

He could have offered to withdraw from the battle himself but let Durkon heal the OotS. He had already gotten separated from his party, so an explanation why he isn't there anymore would not have been needed.

A true compromise would have been limiting their respective rolls in the battle to only helping their own alies. But Malack did offer what he felt was reasonable. I disagagree with him on that point.

[F.Harr]

Hope Durkon Accepted Malak's Friend request on Macebook (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html)

What does happen to Durkon's Macebook account?

[Kish]

I can't believe someone is seriously arguing that Malack couldn't have killed Durkon without turning him into a vampire.

(If, and I emphasize that bending this far is already kind of goofy, if Malack could have neither done any of the things other people have suggested, nor have drained Durkon down to 1 Constitution and then tightened his coils slightly...even then he could certainly have left Durkon's corpse on the floor and made his final suggestion to Belkar be, instead, "I suggest you tell your allies to procure a wooden stake for Durkon's heart at the first opportunity, and that if they don't send his corpse back to his homeland I will personally torture each of you to death.")

[The Pilgrim]

The letter is a good idea, but unless Malack has his address in his Macebook, it's still pretty implausible for the messenger to roam the whole continent. IMHO, even only a few dwarves - possibly clerics of Tor as well - know where he resides.

Lord Shojo sent a letter to the High Priest of Thor, on Durkon's behalf. This proves that it's possible to send correspondence to the High Priest of Thor.

Tarquin sent a letter to Haley Starshine, all the way to Greysky City. This proves that Malack has the resources to send mail to other continents.

Anyway, you are just nitpicking. The point is, if Malack really wished to honor his dead friend, he wouldn't transform his corpse into a mockery of all Durkon was in life.

[Mike Havran]

Lord Shojo sent a letter to the High Priest of Thor, on Durkon's behalf. This proves that it's possible to send correspondence to the High Priest of Thor.

Tarquin sent a letter to Haley Starshine, all the way to Greysky City. This proves that Malack has the resources to send mail to other continents.

Anyway, you are just nitpicking. The point is, if Malack really wished to honor his dead friend, he wouldn't transform his corpse into a mockery of all Durkon was in life.

Durkon probably added his address/settlement/whatever to the letter somewhere.

Well, Malack did honor Durkon's last wish (at least, so far). If Durkon had also wished not to be made a vampire, it would have been interesting to see Malack's reaction. He's been a vampire for 200 years, he lacks the empathy to figure it out by himself.

[Caractacus]

"I lost a friend, but at least I can scrap a fine vampire companion".


Do you mean 'salvage' a fine vampire companion?

Or can the word 'scrap' be used like that in your area? To me, it means the opposite - throw away as scrap' kind of thing...



In other thread-related news: we have to remember that Malack has a much longer-standing friendship with Tarquin, so his efforts to avoid fighting Durkon surely have to avoid basically betraying his old friend's trust... Why is everyone so obsessed only with the friendship he had with Durkon? :smallconfused:

[The Pilgrim]

Durkon probably added his address/settlement/whatever to the letter somewhere.

Which means than in the worst-case scenario, Malack would be just one "speak with dead" away from the info.


Well, Malack did honor Durkon's last wish (at least, so far).

So far. Anyway, Belkar was not a threat and, given how easly Malack can dominate him, having him rejoin the Order is more an asset than a liability for our Vampire Lizard.


If Durkon had also wished not tWell, Malack did honor Durkon's last wish (at lTeam Tarquineast, so far). o be made a vampire, it would have been interesting to see Malack's reaction. He's been a vampire for 200 years, he lacks the empathy to figure it out by himself.

It's not like Malack couldn't figure out that Durkon woundn't be fond of becoming a Vampire, after Durkon rejected any compromise with a "you are a frickin' vampire", five minutes ago.

Anyway, Malack is aware that the Vampire he just created is no longer Durkon, really. And you don't need much Wisdom Score to figure out people don't like his corpse being desecrated to make a mockery of all you were in life.

[Silverionmox]

IRT Roland

Not necessarily, the Vampire template seems to change alignment to Evil, and that is probably also reflected in the rest of the person's cognition: someone who gets lobotomized is still the same person, but in many ways they can change a lot. I see the effect of vampirism in a similar fashion (only in the inverse relation, as you become more acute mentally) with an evil turn.

That's one option. The other is making it an affliction that causes you to physically need and desire to suck blood from living people, but doesn't force mental changes. Then you'd still have the choice to give in to it or not... much as if you were magically compelled to become a pedophile: you still have the choice to rape children or not.

It depends on what the dramatical needs of the story are.

[The Pilgrim]

Do you mean 'salvage' a fine vampire companion?

Or can the word 'scrap' be used like that in your area? To me, it means the opposite - throw away as scrap' kind of thing...

Take a look at my profile. I'm not a native english speaker. I'm not really fit for a semantics debate about english.


In other thread-related news: we have to remember that Malack has a much longer-standing friendship with Tarquin, so his efforts to avoid fighting Durkon surely have to avoid basically betraying his old friend's trust... Why is everyone so obsessed only with the friendship he had with Durkon? :smallconfused:

I'm wondering how much of his relationship with Tarquin is true friendship, and how much is "thanks to this piece of food with legs, I'm going to transform a whole continent into a food-processing factory".

[theNater]

The idea that Malack carries garlic of holy wafers for the purpose of preventing somebody to become a vampire is...well...:smallamused:
He doesn't have to have it with him. The vamping process normally takes three days after the blood is drained; he can finish up at the gate, then go back to Bleedingham and send a subordinate to buy some.

Well, Haley is quite fond of them, but she is about the only person we have seen so far. No reason to assume Malack has one as well.
They're relatively cheap and very useful. It is entirely reasonable to assume that any high-level adventurer has at least one.

The letter is a good idea, but unless Malack has his address in his Macebook, it's still pretty implausible for the messenger to roam the whole continent. IMHO, even only a few dwarves - possibly clerics of Tor as well - know where he resides.
Given that he's the primary religious leader of Thor worshipers, I would expect most Thor worshipers to know what city he lives in, at least. Once in that city, the temple to Thor should be easy enough to find.

Why are you trying to make this harder than it is?

[Psyren]

No I disagree. He offered a few compromises, not "everything", and they were all heavily in his favor and unacceptable to Durkon. Durkon did not accept those compromises, they all involved "Let Tarquin have the Gate unchallenged", which Durkon was not going to budge on.

Fixed that for you :smalltongue:


Malack can kill him with the vamp-bite, then behead the corpse and fill its mouth with garlic, preventing it from becoming a vampire.

...Why would Malack of all people be walking around with garlic?

[theNater]

...Why would Malack of all people be walking around with garlic?
You aren't the first to ask this question. I'll just quote my response from earlier.

He doesn't have to have it with him. The vamping process normally takes three days after the blood is drained; he can finish up at the gate, then go back to Bleedingham and send a subordinate to buy some.

[Kilo24]

Malack made three suggestions that were (debatably) not in Durkon's favor, but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't have accepted something less one-sided. When proposing offers in a negotiation, it's rarely a good idea to start off with something only barely acceptable to you; people on the opposite side will generally try to negotiate down from there. Instead, you propose terms that are in your favor to serve as a point of reference.

Of course, it's rather hard to talk with someone who openly states "Thar can be no compromise!" and responds to potential deals with statements that the opposing party is a blight on the world due to his nature and must be destroyed. It's possible that Malack was simply trying to manipulate Durkon into tactically stupid moves through their friendship and would have refused to reconsider any of his initial proposals, but I strongly doubt it. Durkon made it abundantly clear that any further negotiation attempts would be met with deaf ears and bared hostility.

[theNater]

Malack made three suggestions that were (debatably) not in Durkon's favor, but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't have accepted something less one-sided. When proposing offers in a negotiation, it's rarely a good idea to start off with something only barely acceptable to you; people on the opposite side will generally try to negotiate down from there. Instead, you propose terms that are in your favor to serve as a point of reference.
The Order's primary objective(for this dungeon) is to keep the gate out of the hands of those who would use it for evil. The Linear Guild's primary objective(for this dungeon) is to put the gate in the hands of Tarquin. These are mutually incompatible objectives, and no amount of negotiating is going to change that.

[Gurgeh]

I'd be careful with that assumption. We have no idea what Tarquin's immediate objective is. He's kept his cards sufficiently close to his chest that we certainly can't baldly assert that he wants to control the gates: remember that every single statement implying such has come from Nale, not Tarquin or Malack.

[theNater]

I'd be careful with that assumption. We have no idea what Tarquin's immediate objective is. He's kept his cards sufficiently close to his chest that we certainly can't baldly assert that he wants to control the gates: remember that every single statement implying such has come from Nale, not Tarquin or Malack.
While Tarquin may not want to control the Snarl, he almost certainly wants to control this gate. It's the only thing in the Windy Canyon of significant value(relative to his empire and to foreseeable costs incurred in acquiring it).

[The Pilgrim]

There are people around here who still think that Tarquin will hesitate before taking advantage of any opportunity to increase his personal power?

How sweet. :smallsmile:

I have a brigde to sell you in Terabithia, btw.

[Rakoa]

There are people around here who still think that Tarquin will hesitate before taking advantage of any opportunity to increase his personal power?

How sweet. :smallsmile:

I think Tarquin would appreciate this, in that it would warm his heart to think people think of him so highly. Then these people would turn around to see Tarquin's police force dragging them off to be burned at the stakes, which would make his heart even warmer.

[Gurgeh]

Condescending attitudes aside, I maintain that nothing whatsoever has been established concerning Tarquin's tactical motives. His only stated objective is testing Roy in battle, and his only implied objective (from anyone who has any real understanding of him, at least) is a similar desire to get Elan's measure as well.

Now, there's obviously something more going on, but Tarquin is probably well aware that there's pretty much nothing he can do about the Snarl himself. Nale has told him that there's nothing he can do to directly control it, and I honestly doubt that he's willing to just blindly take Nale at his word on the matter of knowing someone who's got the ritual.

Tarquin's already made it plain that he plays long games. We don't have enough evidence to assert anything beyond that - any evaluation of his motives that isn't drawn directly from the text is pure speculation.

[The Pilgrim]

Condescending attitudes aside, I maintain that nothing whatsoever has been established concerning Tarquin's tactical motives. His only stated objective is testing Roy in battle, and his only implied objective (from anyone who has any real understanding of him, at least) is a similar desire to get Elan's measure as well..

#0820 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html)
Tarquin basically acknowledges here that he has played dumb in order to learn about what Elan and Nale were after.

#0821 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)
After learning the mojo, Tarquin specifically tells the audience that he intends to seize the MacGuffin from Elan's hands at the last moment, after the OOTS has cleared the way in.

#0822 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html)
Tarquin gave Elan a carpet with a tracking device on him. Meaning he had been planning all this before Nale told him the stuff about the gates.

So, if you really think that all Tarquin wants is to tease Roy and Elan... then I insist to show you my catalog of Bridges for Sale. :smallwink:

[SaintRidley]

What does happen to Durkon's Macebook account?

"Durkon has a new race status. I <3 the Undead!"

[theNater]

...I maintain that nothing whatsoever has been established concerning Tarquin's tactical motives. His only stated objective is testing Roy in battle, and his only implied objective (from anyone who has any real understanding of him, at least) is a similar desire to get Elan's measure as well.
Neither of those goals would satisfy Malack, and neither of them is worth losing Malack's friendship and support over. So as you say, there is obviously something more going on.

Now, there's obviously something more going on, but Tarquin is probably well aware that there's pretty much nothing he can do about the Snarl himself. Nale has told him that there's nothing he can do to directly control it, and I honestly doubt that he's willing to just blindly take Nale at his word on the matter of knowing someone who's got the ritual.
Tarquin doesn't have to have the ability to manipulate the Snarl in order to want the gate. If nothing else, it is a hugely powerful explosive; that's worth keeping control of by itself, even with no other value to it.

#0821 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)
After learning the mojo, Tarquin specifically tells the audience that he intends to seize the MacGuffin from Elan's hands at the last moment, after the OOTS has cleared the way in.
In fairness, Nale is able to hear Tarquin at that time; if Tarquin is trying to put one over on Nale he has to keep up the act even when talking to the audience.

[The Pilgrim]

In fairness, Nale is able to hear Tarquin at that time; if Tarquin is trying to put one over on Nale he has to keep up the act even when talking to the audience.

He played the same on Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html). It's Tarquin we are talking about, the old man can't help it. :smallbiggrin:

[TopCheese]

Malack liked Durkon as a friend, so he attemped to avoid the fight. Since he could not reach an agreement favorable for the unLizard's interests, he had to kill a friend to advance his agenda.

After doing that, raising Durkon as a vampire was a way to minimize loss (for his interests). "I lost a friend, but at least I can scrap a fine vampire companion".

Of course, if he had the bare minimum respect for his friend, he would send his corpse back to the dwarven homeland - as Durkon would have want - instead of doing the single most humiliating thing he could do to Durkon - turn his corpse into everything the dwarf depised, denying his corpse it's proper resting place among his ancestors in the process.

But Malack is evil, so his own selfish interests come way first than respect for the dignity of a friend.

Well no, Malack is enlightening durkon about vampires. Whereas durkon was very very against the idea of intelligent undead. They both don't like unintelligent undead and it probably hurt Malack that this "good" person hated him based on something as silly as a template so what does Malack do? Malack educates durkon.

It is like durkon judged malack before walking a mile in malack's shoes (err tail slipper? Snuggie?) But now durkon will walk a mile in malack's shoes wither he likes it or not.

Also I'm gonna set up a dwarven vampire one shot... hmm :D

[Sethram]

Strangely enough, while he considers what he did the death of Durkon, Cleric of Thor, I'm betting he also sees it as the birth of a his new child. Think about it, he's a 200 year old vampire, but he's mad at Nale for killing his children. That means Nale either killed vampified children born before Malak's turning, or he killed new vampires spawned by Malak that he considered his children. I think we're going to be seeing some more interesting things from the pale lizard for sure.

[Forum Explorer]

Strangely enough, while he considers what he did the death of Durkon, Cleric of Thor, I'm betting he also sees it as the birth of a his new child. Think about it, he's a 200 year old vampire, but he's mad at Nale for killing his children. That means Nale either killed vampified children born before Malak's turning, or he killed new vampires spawned by Malak that he considered his children. I think we're going to be seeing some more interesting things from the pale lizard for sure.

Malak pretty much said that he already considers Durkula to be his brother. Well younger brother.

[kabraxis]

I'm not sure how much will that contribute to the topic, but keep in mind the last panel of strip 818 and the first few panels of strip 819.

Malack doesn't seem like the kind of guy who figures stuff out very easily. Maybe he didn't think there was another option besides turning Durkon into a vamp.

Also, maybe the compromises he proposed were legit in his mind (and like someone said before, let's not forget his friendship with Tarquin is much more deeply rooted than his friendship with durkon).

[theNater]

Well no, Malack is enlightening durkon about vampires.
Malack has given no indication that this is his intent. This is in contrast to the statements he's made about how he wants a sibling/colleague to hang out with.

doesn't seem like the kind of guy who figures stuff out very easily. Maybe he didn't think there was another option besides turning Durkon into a vamp.
It doesn't take a lot of cleverness to come up with "don't turn Durkon into a vamp" as an alternative. Even if Malack can't come up with a workable long-term plan for that, he can come up with a workable short-term plan and then get help from Tarquin.

Also, maybe the compromises he proposed were legit in his mind (and like someone said before, let's not forget his friendship with Tarquin is much more deeply rooted than his friendship with durkon).
Durkon plainly explained why each of Malack's compromises were unacceptable. Even if Malack didn't come up with the idea of having the Linear Guild withdraw, he could have jumped on the possibility when Durkon mentioned it. This demonstrates that Malack thinks getting Tarquin the gate is more important than keeping Durkon alive.

[kabraxis]

Durkon plainly explained why each of Malack's compromises were unacceptable. Even if Malack didn't come up with the idea of having the Linear Guild withdraw, he could have jumped on the possibility when Durkon mentioned it. This demonstrates that Malack thinks getting Tarquin the gate is more important than keeping Durkon alive.

Except Malack never said "well, too bad you didn't accept my terms. Time for you to die". Durkon just instantly refused every option (which makes sense. Durkon should NOT accept those terms) without coming up with any possible solution himself, and then said there could be NO compromise, no parleying, no reasonable discussion because Malack is a vampire and a threat to every living being on the continent.

And why would Malack propose that HIS team leave? It is his team after all and it's in his best interest that they succeed. Like said before, his loyalty and friendship to Tarquin comes before his friendship with Durkon.

[Math_Mage]

Except Malack never said "well, too bad you didn't accept my terms. Time for you to die". Durkon just instantly refused every option (which makes sense. Durkon should NOT accept those terms) without coming up with any possible solution himself, and then said there could be NO compromise, no parleying, no reasonable discussion because Malack is a vampire and a threat to every living being on the continent.

And why would Malack propose that HIS team leave? It is his team after all and it's in his best interest that they succeed. Like said before, his loyalty and friendship to Tarquin comes before his friendship with Durkon.

Is Durkon wrong? Is there a reasonable compromise between "Lawful Good defender of the Gate" and "Lawful Evil vampire with long-term plan for mass slaughter aiming to seize the Gate"? I'm not seeing it.

Also, think carefully about implying that "best interest" is good enough reason to go around killing and vamping people. Malack sees that as justified, because Malack is Evil. Doesn't make it a reasonable talking point.

[theNater]

Except Malack never said "well, too bad you didn't accept my terms. Time for you to die". Durkon just instantly refused every option (which makes sense. Durkon should NOT accept those terms) without coming up with any possible solution himself, and then said there could be NO compromise, no parleying, no reasonable discussion because Malack is a vampire and a threat to every living being on the continent.
Because Malack is a vampire and even if Durkon ignored that, Malack still cannot be allowed to seize the pyramid. Malack being a vampire is not the primary reason there can be no reasonable discussion.

And why would Malack propose that HIS team leave? It is his team after all and it's in his best interest that they succeed. Like said before, his loyalty and friendship to Tarquin comes before his friendship with Durkon.
Indeed, and that prioritizing makes Malack evil.

EDIT: That is, prioritizing Tarquin's friendship over Durkon's life. If it were just a matter of not being friends anymore, that would be less of a problem.

[VanaGalen]

Except Malack never said "well, too bad you didn't accept my terms. Time for you to die". Durkon just instantly refused every option (which makes sense. Durkon should NOT accept those terms) without coming up with any possible solution himself, and then said there could be NO compromise, no parleying, no reasonable discussion because Malack is a vampire and a threat to every living being on the continent.

And why would Malack propose that HIS team leave? It is his team after all and it's in his best interest that they succeed. Like said before, his loyalty and friendship to Tarquin comes before his friendship with Durkon.

Exactly, Durkon's offer was pretty much "I can kill and res you (irrecoverably destroying last 200 years of your life). You either take it or we fight to death."

As for Malack leaving - being friends with someone doesn't mean you can't be assertive. From Malack's point of view Durkon tried to threaten him. Friendship doesn't mean you have to give in to blackmail and threats.

There is also the issue of Malack turning Durkon into undead against his will. I think the tea incident showed Malack's view on life and un-life is different than that of Durkon or other living being. Malack apparently doesn't see anything unusual in drinking blood-tea or other aspect of vampire physiology. It seems he also doesn't see anything wrong with raising a corpse as vampire.
After all, Durkon didn't explicitly say he doesn't want to become one - he simply stated he considers vampires abominable. I doubt Malack could understand that, being vampire himself for major part of his life. From Malack's point of view, Durkon displayed unreasonable hatred towards his friend's race and what Malack considers normal and natural. I can't see why Malack should think raising Durkon was wrong when he didn't think there could be something wrong with the tea.

[Kish]

Indeed, and that prioritizing makes Malack evil.

EDIT: That is, prioritizing Tarquin's friendship over Durkon's life. If it were just a matter of not being friends anymore, that would be less of a problem.
Still a pretty big problem though. Being best friends with something like Tarquin is not morally neutral.

[Math_Mage]

Exactly, Durkon's offer was pretty much "I can kill and res you (irrecoverably destroying last 200 years of your life). You either take it or we fight to death."

As for Malack leaving - being friends with someone doesn't mean you can't be assertive. From Malack's point of view Durkon tried to threaten him. Friendship doesn't mean you have to give in to blackmail and threats.

There is also the issue of Malack turning Durkon into undead against his will. I think the tea incident showed Malack's view on life and un-life is different than that of Durkon or other living being. Malack apparently doesn't see anything unusual in drinking blood-tea or other aspect of vampire physiology. It seems he also doesn't see anything wrong with raising a corpse as vampire.
After all, Durkon didn't explicitly say he doesn't want to become one - he simply stated he considers vampires abominable. I doubt Malack could understand that, being vampire himself for major part of his life. From Malack's point of view, Durkon displayed unreasonable hatred towards his friend's race and what Malack considers normal and natural. I can't see why Malack should think raising Durkon was wrong when he didn't think there could be something wrong with the tea.

I'm baffled that Malack's point of view is considered a legitimate moral standpoint to argue from. Also, that 'being assertive' is being conflated with...well, what Malack did in the comic.

[sims796]

I'm baffled that Malack's point of view is considered a legitimate moral standpoint to argue from. Also, that 'being assertive' is being conflated with...well, what Malack did in the comic.

This confuses the hell out of me as well.

I miss it when vampires were evil because they were. Whatever happened to those days?

[Bulldog Psion]

Malack's attitude is realistic -- which is why he has depth as a character. Real sapients are not examples of monolithic certainty. Everyone has doubts and regrets. Many a warrior has regretted killing someone -- even though they would still have killed them even if they regretted it even before striking with the sword or pulling the trigger.

He's a complex character. It is quite possible for him to do what he believes is necessary, yet feel sorrow at having to do so. Or to be moved by a powerful desire for children, though feel a pang at what achieving that goal entails.

In short, he regretted it. He just didn't regret it enough to stop.

[The Pilgrim]

Exactly, Durkon's offer was pretty much "I can kill and res you (irrecoverably destroying last 200 years of your life). You either take it or we fight to death."

As for Malack leaving - being friends with someone doesn't mean you can't be assertive. From Malack's point of view Durkon tried to threaten him. Friendship doesn't mean you have to give in to blackmail and threats.

Sorry, but no. That bit came after Malack attacked him, voicing a "then die". And the dwarf discarded the idea after Malack informed him of his negative to being raised from the dead.

Anyway, always remember that Malack shot first.

Plus, later Durkon stated that he was satisfied with sending Malack back to his coffin. He wanted Malack out of the way, not necessary destroyed.


After all, Durkon didn't explicitly say he doesn't want to become one - he simply stated he considers vampires abominable.

I stole your car and sold it for scrapping. You never explicitly said you didn't want your car stolen, you simply stated that you consider vehicle theft abominable.

[sims796]

I stole your car and sold it for scrapping. You never explicitly said you didn't want your car stolen, you simply stated that you consider vehicle theft abominable.

The fact that you needed to use that at all shows that there is some serious logic jumping going on in this thread.

[VanaGalen]

Yes, I suppose it does sound pretty bad.

Still, about the start of the battle. Malack physically attacked first, but only after Durkon said: no reasonable discussion, no compromise. You don't have to wait for the first strike after someone declares war on you.
Also, Durkon said sending Malack to his coffin would be OK only after he saw that killing Malack would be impossible, so he settled for that - as it was still better than nothing.

About the car analogy - we are both human and we were probably raised in the same ethic system. There are societies that don't have the concept of ownership rights and to them saying "car theft is wrong" would mean nothing, as they don't have the idea of theft at all.

I believe this is the case here - being a vampire, Malack doesn't see some things as humans do. Especially that he has shown being very lawful, but not really empathic. I think he might have considered Durkon's words as prejudice and fear against something unknown.

I'm not saying Malack is less evil because of that, he's evil and scary as hell. But I don't think raising Durkon as vampire after Malack killed him was conscious violation of his friendship with Durkon or that he was even aware of acting against Durkon's wishes.

[Math_Mage]

Still, about the start of the battle. Malack physically attacked first, but only after Durkon said: no reasonable discussion, no compromise. You don't have to wait for the first strike after someone declares war on you.
Also, Durkon said sending Malack to his coffin would be OK only after he saw that killing Malack would be impossible, so he settled for that - as it was still better than nothing.
Can someone explain to me why we're arguing about the proposed and rejected compromises? Like, was someone trying to make a point about Malack using them?


About the car analogy - we are both human and we were probably raised in the same ethic system. There are societies that don't have the concept of ownership rights and to them saying "car theft is wrong" would mean nothing, as they don't have the idea of theft at all.

I believe this is the case here - being a vampire, Malack doesn't see some things as humans do. Especially that he has shown being very lawful, but not really empathic. I think he might have considered Durkon's words as prejudice and fear against something unknown.
Malack plainly has the idea of death--he objects to his own, after all. And prejudice and fear against something unknown is still plainly expressed prejudice and fear, so for you to reach the conclusion that...


I don't think raising Durkon as vampire after Malack killed him was conscious violation of his friendship with Durkon or that he was even aware of acting against Durkon's wishes.
Is completely strange to me.

[Rakoa]

About the car analogy - we are both human and we were probably raised in the same ethic system. There are societies that don't have the concept of ownership rights and to them saying "car theft is wrong" would mean nothing, as they don't have the idea of theft at all.


I have been to Amsterdam, and they have so many bicycles that it is pointless to own one. People simply pick them up off the streets, bike wherever, and then drop them back down wherever. I found that to be most interesting while I was there, and I think it is relevant to your analogy. It is a very different way of doing things, but equally valid.

[kabraxis]

Is Durkon wrong? Is there a reasonable compromise between "Lawful Good defender of the Gate" and "Lawful Evil vampire with long-term plan for mass slaughter aiming to seize the Gate"? I'm not seeing it.

Also, think carefully about implying that "best interest" is good enough reason to go around killing and vamping people. Malack sees that as justified, because Malack is Evil. Doesn't make it a reasonable talking point.

Not at all. Infact, I even said in my own post that Durkon should NOT have accepted Malacks terms. And I'm also not saying that Malack is a good person and that his motives are right or anything like that. I'm just trying to add to a previous discussion;

(sorry don't know how to quote mid-post)

2323mike:
I think Malack originally considered living Durkon as a friend and wasn't thinking about vamping him. But 872 showed there can no longer be friendship or compromise between them. So he needed to kill the living Durkon to make place for vampire Durkon - he considers them to be two different persons. His "tragedy visited a friend" comment is made with respect to living Durkon, who is gone.

----------

Then some people started saying that Malack could / should have not fought at all.

Well, from a "Good for the world" perspective, yeah, he should. But it really doesn't make sense for his character. He tried to avoid the fight because he liked Durkon, but why would he allow Durkon to kill him? Why would he simply run away from there? He didn't own anything to Durkon, he had the upper hand, he IS friends and ally with Tarquin. It wouldn't make sense for his character to simply go "welp, I'm evil so go ahead and kill me."

What Malack did was "wrong", but for HIM it was the right thing to do. He didn't WANT to kill Durkon, but his alliance and friendship with Tarquin (and his own will to keep existing as a vampire) are stronger than his friendship with Durkon, and since Durkon didn't want to compromise, why would HE?

[The Pilgrim]

About the car analogy - we are both human and we were probably raised in the same ethic system. There are societies that don't have the concept of ownership rights and to them saying "car theft is wrong" would mean nothing, as they don't have the idea of theft at all.

I believe this is the case here - being a vampire, Malack doesn't see some things as humans do. Especially that he has shown being very lawful, but not really empathic. I think he might have considered Durkon's words as prejudice and fear against something unknown.

I'm not saying Malack is less evil because of that, he's evil and scary as hell. But I don't think raising Durkon as vampire after Malack killed him was conscious violation of his friendship with Durkon or that he was even aware of acting against Durkon's wishes.

"I Hate People Who Steals Cars" is rather informative on someone's position towards having his own car stolen. Regardless of the dutch bicycle sharing system or the outcome of the legislative elections in Burkina Faso.

"I consider Vampires to be Abominable" is, likewise, rather informative on someone's position towards being turned into a blood-sucker.


Then some people started saying that Malack could / should have not fought at all.

I don't know about others, but I've never wrote that Malack should not have fought. Or even that he shouldn't have killed Durkon.

What I'm objecting is the idea that Malack really has any real concern for the dignity of Durkon, given that he just unnecesary inflicted on the dwarf the single most humiliating thing he could do.

...

...

Also, please, people, do not turn this thread into a "is it morally justified to turn someone's corpse into a Vampire?" debate. :smallconfused:

Please, no. Pretty Please.

Just, no.

[theNater]

Then some people started saying that Malack could / should have not fought at all.
Malack could leave. He could have just walked away, and Durkon would not have pursued him. The only thing stopping him was himself, and it's important to remember that in any consideration of these events. Malack is as much at fault as Durkon for this turning into a fight to the death.

[Rakoa]

Malack could leave. He could have just walked away, and Durkon would not have pursued him. The only thing stopping him was himself, and it's important to remember that in any consideration of these events. Malack is as much at fault as Durkon for this turning into a fight to the death.

It is unlikely Durkon would let a bloodsucking vampire walk away in good conscience, though still possible. I think Malack made the right choice for himself, though. If he attempted to leave, he would lose the advantage of the first strike on Durkon, and it is likely this fight would have come to fisticuffs regardless given Durkon's opinion on the undead and the circumstances of him nearly draining Belkar.

[theNater]

It is unlikely Durkon would let a bloodsucking vampire walk away in good conscience, though still possible. I think Malack made the right choice for himself, though. If he attempted to leave, he would lose the advantage of the first strike on Durkon, and it is likely this fight would have come to fisticuffs regardless given Durkon's opinion on the undead and the circumstances of him nearly draining Belkar.
Recall that Durkon would have been quite content to settle for sending Malack back to his coffin to regenerate. His aims in fighting Malack at this time are to protect Belkar and keep the gate out of the hands of the Linear Guild; Malack leaving satisfies those aims.

Durkon may want to come back later to take out Malack on the grounds that Malack is a vampire, but that's on the same level as Elan wanting to come back and dethrone his father. It is not the priority right now.

[Yaije9841]

Recall that Durkon would have been quite content to settle for sending Malack back to his coffin to regenerate. ....


Only cause Durkon doesn't know exactly where that coffin is. He was realized he couldn't kill Malak not because he didn't want to but because he was physically and magically unable to do so.

In the end it reverted to both adhering to their loyalties to their respective groups. The Oots and Tarquin.

[theNater]

Only cause Durkon doesn't know exactly where that coffin is. He was realized he couldn't kill Malak not because he didn't want to but because he was physically and magically unable to do so.
Durkon would like to destroy Malack.

Durkon would accept driving Malack away.

Malack could leave without being pursued by Durkon.

[Yaije9841]

And Durkon could leave without being pursued by Malak... Their loyalties prevent either from just up and leaving.

And really, why is the gate being in Malak's hands any worse than... well anyone else? He doesn't know what's up with with anymore than Nale (who only knows as much as Shojo and Roy at the very least. His plan for a super empire of death that isn't going to happen for at least a century or so?

[theNater]

And Durkon could leave without being pursued by Malak... Their loyalties prevent either from just up and leaving.
Some posters have been suggesting that Durkon has unreasonably caused Malack's only options to be fight or die. This is not true. Durkon also having other options is irrelevant to this fact.

And really, why is the gate being in Malak's hands any worse than... well anyone else? He doesn't know what's up with with anymore than Nale (who only knows as much as Shojo and Roy at the very least. His plan for a super empire of death that isn't going to happen for at least a century or so?
Malack doesn't want to have the gate, he wants Tarquin to have the gate. Tarquin is clever and imaginative enough to come up with some way to use the gate to his advantage which, Tarquin being Tarquin, will almost certainly be to the detriment of a great number of good people.

[Kish]

And Durkon could leave without being pursued by Malak...

Durkon could have agreed to not oppose Malack further. I see no indication that Durkon could have just gone back to rejoin the rest of the Order and planned to fight Malack later, without making any promises to Malack first.


And really, why is the gate being in Malak's hands any worse than... well anyone else?
...Because Malack is a horrifically evil vampire?

[Forum Explorer]

Durkon could have agreed to not oppose Malack further. I see no indication that Durkon could have just gone back to rejoin the rest of the Order and planned to fight Malack later, without making any promises to Malack first.

...Because Malack is a horrifically evil vampire?

Right, the conflict between the two had to be addressed. Though Malack basically did offer let's pretend we didn't meet up and we won't fight each other. So I'd imagine Durkon offering to call it a mulligan, or bringing Roy down to negotiate wouldn't have been out of the question.


Because Malack and Tarquin have a vested interest in maintaining the fabric of the universe, already have a plan to create their empires, and are smart enough to realize that Xykon won't work along with them. Or just learning that Nale actually has no worth to Xykon would be enough to get him going after Nale.

Also Malack is loyal to his god. He has no interest in doing anything that will displease him, like harness a god killing monstrosity.

[theNater]

Because Malack and Tarquin have a vested interest in maintaining the fabric of the universe, already have a plan to create their empires, and are smart enough to realize that Xykon won't work along with them.
Why can't they adjust their plan to incorporate some use of the gates? For that matter, why won't Xykon work along with them? Xykon can't be everywhere at once; he'll need regional governors once he takes over the world.

Or just learning that Nale actually has no worth to Xykon would be enough to get him going after Nale.
Nale never claimed to be valuable to Xykon, he claimed to know Xykon. They're not planning on using him as a negotiator, they're planning on using him as an information source.

Also Malack is loyal to his god. He has no interest in doing anything that will displease him, like harness a god killing monstrosity.
Malack plans to cause massive deaths to please Nergal. Given that Nergal is also a god of destruction, wouldn't massive destruction(like destroying the world) please him as well? Alternately, wouldn't turning the Snarl against his god's divine opposition please his god? That's the essence of Recloak's plan, and the Dark One is fully behind the idea.

[Math_Mage]

Malack plans to cause massive deaths to please Nergal. Given that Nergal is also a god of destruction, wouldn't massive destruction(like destroying the world) please him as well? Alternately, wouldn't turning the Snarl against his god's divine opposition please his god? That's the essence of Recloak's plan, and the Dark One is fully behind the idea.

Snarl doesn't cause death, but unmaking. And TDO is rather a maverick as gods go; I imagine anyone who was actually around when the Snarl was wreaking havoc would be leery of planning to use it.

Which is not to say having the Gate go to Malack/Tarquin would be a good thing, but I doubt it would be bad in the particular way you argue.

[theNater]

Snarl doesn't cause death, but unmaking.
Unmaking is not death, but I would tend to count it as destruction, which is another thing Nergal likes.

And TDO is rather a maverick as gods go; I imagine anyone who was actually around when the Snarl was wreaking havoc would be leery of planning to use it.
We don't know for sure what Nergal's take on the idea would be, and even that is less important than what Malack thinks Nergal's take on the idea would be, which we also don't know. I don't think we can conclusively rule it out.

Which is not to say having the Gate go to Malack/Tarquin would be a good thing, but I doubt it would be bad in the particular way you argue.
I'm just throwing out possibilities, some of which are more likely than others. I'm nowhere near as imaginative as Tarquin, though, so I strongly doubt I'll hit on what he and Malack would actually do, no matter how much brainstorming I engage in.