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Dullahan544
2013-03-08, 10:14 AM
Hello,

I'm running my first ever D+D campaign, and I allowed my friends to play any alignment they wanted. I put a lot of time into the background of the world, the setting, the theme, the great threat forcing all humans to band together against an approaching elven-army, etc etc and all was going perfectly well.

In our first dungeon, though, two PC's died in a free-for-all over a magical dagger. I wouldn't have minded, but they were the lawful good and true neutral characters who gave a semblance of balance to the 'all sorts band together' thing I had going on. Now it's a party of chaotic evil, chaotic neutral, a chaotic good barbarian who uses 'chaotic' or 'barbarian' to justify all sorts of evil and a neutral evil. The final player wants to play another cleric to replace the one that got murdered when he demanded nobody loot the grave for the dagger.

I'm not sure how to keep the lawful good cleric alive. The party seems to be pretty cuthroat so far (one player decapitated my tutorial guide) and I want to know how more experienced DM's keep things balanced.

I thought about giving the cleric some sort of built in advantage, like an item with protection from evil, but with my group I think they'll view that as a 'challenge'. I don't really want to split the party as they have all put effort into developing their characters, but I can't see how I can let everyone play the alignment they want and keep them all working together.

My party is loot-hungry, two PC's dead over a weak (and cursed) dagger, and another who abandoned the party to steal armour that he hadn't realized wouldn't fit.

The problem is, the cleric is the second best roleplayer in the group by my estimations, putting in lots of effort and asking me questions week round about how to improve for our next session. I don't want to restrict him from being allowed playing his preferred alignment, especially since the evil people put in less effort than he does... but he is outnumbered, so I don't want to punish all of them either.

Do I restrict evil? Do I restrict good? Do I split the party, or assign paladin babysitters? Everything seems awkward.

I thought about 'make it advantageous to them for his character to be alive' but the happily killed the last cleric before a much foreshadowed boss, so yeah. I could make him plot vital, but then him adventuring wherever he pleases would be a little contradictory.

It's like I'm putting a single Durkon into a party of three Belkar and a V. I want to know how I keep things moving without them adding to the teamkill-killcount.

Thanks :)

Moriwen
2013-03-08, 10:31 AM
Well, I'd pick one of three options.

Out of game: Tell the other players you don't want them to kill this character. Let them come up with their own reasons for it.

Roleplaying: If the other players are invested RP-wise, give them some RP reason to be attached to the paladin. That can be anything from "he's your childhood best friend, and while you may differ philosophically now, you're still good friends" to "better to lie in wait until the perfect moment to kill him, and that won't be for a while."

Mechanical: Make it really, really hard for them. Maybe the paladin has been sent on a quest by his god, who will not be happy about his purported teammates interfering and will zap them if they do. Maybe he's atoning for something, and his god actually won't permit him to die until he's done so.

Obviously which one to pick depends on the temperament of your players, and what's likely to bear weight with them.

Synovia
2013-03-08, 10:34 AM
Being lawful good doesn't mean being Dudley Do-Right, just as being evil doesn't mean tying maidens to the train tracks.


Tell him that he can be a LG cleric, and probably fight with the party all the time. Or he can play a different alignment, and not. If hes a good roleplayer, he should be able to do either.


Then again, I'd have no problem having him play a LE cleric who basically is trying to do good, but is too open to solving problems with force and too open to escalating things when people don't share his views. Maybe too open to practical solutions over the "right" solution.

Frankly, the way 99% of Paladins are played is LE.

Dullahan544
2013-03-08, 10:47 AM
Well, I'd pick one of three options.

Out of game: Tell the other players you don't want them to kill this character. Let them come up with their own reasons for it.


I'll make this my plan B :)

I'm really just having trouble with the SPECIFIC roleplay reason to not waste the LG guy. They all wrote up their seperate origins so I can't shoehorn in a lifelong fondness. The last time they killed the cleric, there was OOC glee on behalf of my mostly-atheist group of friends, so I'll admit I'm worried they'll transpose their real life outlook onto their characters and just mess with the priesthood. Which would be nasty for my group, but that's entirely seperate.

I try to make the God's all seem indifferent, because the overarching plot is a war between the elven God (I forget his name) and the rest of the pantheon.

@Synovia

The LG character doesn't act like a goodie goodie, he's actually pretty pragmatic and lenient, while still fighting for good and order whenever he possibly can (or at least that's what his first LG was like). I really don't consider him at fault.



I was sort of hoping there was a go-to trope for this sort of thing. I'm guessing not? Thanks for your help so far, though :)

Adam...?
2013-03-08, 10:58 AM
I'd say your best bet is to talk to the guy playing the cleric about how exactly he wants to define "lawful good" for the new character. I can see the appeal of playing an idealistic character with a rigid code of conduct, but not all lawful good characters have to be that way. It's one thing to disagree with grave robbing, but it takes a whole new level of fanaticism to lay down your life just to protect to dignity of one random dead guy.

Realistically, the player should understand that on average, the party seems to lie somewhat south of neutral. It sounds like the evil characters have already been getting their way most of the time, and that realistically isn't going to change just because some new guy tells them no and slaps them on the wrist. So if he's going to be playing lawful good, it needs to be the kind of lawful good that can justify adventuring with people who do heinous things.

So the next time someone decides to loot some graves, the new character can still protest. Maybe even give out a good lecture. But in the end, he should back down before people come to blows. Obviously, the cleric won't take any part in that nonsense, but there's no sense dying over it. After all, the world needs him to keep pointing these blood thirsty lunatics at those evil bastard elves rather than innocent people. He can't stop them from doing terrible things (at least, not without a lot backup and the threat of violence), but he can at least try to minimize the evil they do. And if along the way, he manages to bring that barbarian to the side of light, or even redeem one of the evil guys, all the better.

Obviously, that's just one idea, and you certainly don't want to dictate his character to him. But if he is, as you say, a good roleplayer, hopefully he'll see it as a fun challenge.

As for keeping him alive, I don't see giving this guy a special advantage would really be all that useful. If things break down into violence, he'll almost definitely be outnumbered anyways, so I don't imagine the evil guys will be seeing him as a threat. If they want to kill him, they will. The trick is to not make them want to kill the guy. You could always try asking them nicely?

Synovia
2013-03-08, 11:12 AM
The LG character doesn't act like a goodie goodie, he's actually pretty pragmatic and lenient, while still fighting for good and order whenever he possibly can (or at least that's what his first LG was like). I really don't consider him at fault.)

Getting into a fight to the death over someone pulling a dagger out of a tomb sounds pretty goody-goody to me.

Dullahan544
2013-03-08, 12:01 PM
Getting into a fight to the death over someone pulling a dagger out of a tomb sounds pretty goody-goody to me.

He didn't know how it was going to happen, as a character or as a PC. Neither did I, as the DM. Regardless, as a priest, he decided looting a grave was bad, and said as much. The druid started the fight, having a character trait of resenting being told what to do/moral superiority. The druid's dead too though now, so that's not an issue.

I do need to curtail my partys loot-hunger somehow, they will completely cut eachother to shreds for anything shiny.

So yeah, I don't think he was being overly purehearted, he has played himself more Batman than Jesus when it comes the LG tendencies.

EDIT: During the fight the druid goaded him with insults to his God and his family, playing at his origin. Admittedly he could have backed down, but yeah. Storywise we all loved it, I just don't want every game to be 'lets kill the good guy!'

@Adam - Thanks!! I sent on a paraphrased version of what you said to my cleric. He agreed with it, and says his second character will be more cautious and less evangelical about things. He was especially happy with the 'Let these people get away with things, as they kill elves so they exist for the greater good' kind of thing, and he's now fudging his character origin to reflect his new guy's outlook. This should work :D

Thialfi
2013-03-08, 12:28 PM
You should have specified in your title that you want to keep the lawful good cleric alive in the stupid evil party.

A smart evil party should have plenty of motivation to keep the cleric alive as smart evil people like being healed.

A better question would be why would the lawful good cleric hang around with stupid evil party members?

Don't know the rules for magic items in later editions, but in 1e/2e the game is chock full of magic items that the lawful good cleric could use that would zap the bejeesus out of the stupid evil party members, so he gets them by default.

By the way, D&D is supposed to be fun for everyone, and this kinda crap would not be fun for me. As a DM, I would plan my encounters for a smart group and unapologetically TPK the crap out of these morons if they continued to act like psychotic jackasses.

Dullahan544
2013-03-08, 12:33 PM
You should have specified in your title that you want to keep the lawful good cleric alive in the stupid evil party.

A smart evil party should have plenty of motivation to keep the cleric alive as smart evil people like being healed.

A better question would be why would the lawful good cleric hang around with stupid evil party members?

Don't know the rules for magic items in later editions, but in 1e/2e the game is chock full of magic items that the lawful good cleric could use that would zap the bejeesus out of the stupid evil party members, so he gets them by default.

By the way, D&D is supposed to be fun for everyone, and this kinda crap would not be fun for me. As a DM, I would plan my encounters for a smart group and unapologetically TPK the crap out of these morons if they continued to act like psychotic jackasses.

I agree with you, I just needed to find a good way of doing it and was stumped for motivations :)

The clerics have the same origin, basically one of the party members is a noble the church wants to keep alive as nobles are needed as figureheads in the upcoming war.

Yes, they kind of pushed me to the edge when only one guy in the last bossfight fought the boss, and the others searched the room for loot WHILE UNDER ATTACK. They ended up gaining absolutely nothing from the dungeon though, other than a succubus draining a level, a suit of armour that wont fit, a cursed dagger and what I hope were a lot of lessons. If they keep their killing spree up, they will get railroaded a bit more. I don't know exactly how harsh to be, and when, because it's my first time running a game.

Synovia
2013-03-08, 12:36 PM
By the way, D&D is supposed to be fun for everyone, and this kinda crap would not be fun for me. As a DM, I would plan my encounters for a smart group and unapologetically TPK the crap out of these morons if they continued to act like psychotic jackasses.

If its supposed to be fun for everyone, and almost everyone wants to play psychotic jackasses, let them play psychotic jackasses.

Dullahan544
2013-03-08, 12:47 PM
If its supposed to be fun for everyone, and almost everyone wants to play psychotic jackasses, let them play psychotic jackasses.

Also a good point! xD

I'm not stopping them from doing anything or force them to be crafty-evil instead of stabby-evil, I'm just trying to make them a little more stable so we can actually develop characters and have somewhat meaningful party dynamics. Admittedly we are all new, I think some of it is just gonna take a while as we get used to the game.

Synovia
2013-03-08, 01:25 PM
Also a good point! xD

I'm not stopping them from doing anything or force them to be crafty-evil instead of stabby-evil, I'm just trying to make them a little more stable so we can actually develop characters and have somewhat meaningful party dynamics. Admittedly we are all new, I think some of it is just gonna take a while as we get used to the game.

Yeah sounds like new players.

Ask them this question: "Why would you travel with these guys if you're always afraid they're going to stab you to death at the next opportunity?"

They wouldn't. Their characters would also realize that attacking another party member has a very real chance of you ending up dead, and people don't like being dead.

Part of being a good player is finding reasons why you SHOULD work with the party instead of finding reasons why you shouldn't.

jedipilot24
2013-03-09, 10:46 AM
You should see the Book of Vile Darkness movie, it's much better than the two preceding movies. Without giving too much away, it's essentially the story of how a good cleric could get caught up in an adventure with an evil party and survive.

Kaveman26
2013-03-09, 11:00 AM
So have the cleric withhold healing from those who are misbehaving. If they kill him out of spite make them suffer for lack of healing. When the cures, resists and buffs go dry it will change their attitude in a hurry. Not of redemption but pragmatism.

TheDarkSaint
2013-03-09, 11:21 AM
Any time I let my PC's be evil, I let them know early and with great bluntness that since they are taking the gloves off, so am I.

Avenging clerics, paladins, good dragons, you name it. If they cut a swath of death and destruction, some good guys are going to be gunning for them and it is surprising how WELL lawful good can work together.

As for keeping a LG cleric in the party, perhaps his he see's a need to help bring these misirable souls around to a better way of living. Perhaps by leading by example?

I'd take the LG cleric guy aside and hatch a plan. The guy willingly shares all of his loot away with the party, making a point of giving things to party members with well wishes. Then you start giving him bonus's from the Vow of Poverty chart from the Book of Exaulted Deeds. Lots of people will poo poo it because it isn't as powerful as getting loot, but won't the rest of the party be AMAZED at what he can do...with no items. You might tweek it a little.

Bam. you have a LG cleric who is trying to work to change the moral compass of some reprobates and he GIVES THEM STUFF and HEALS them.

Of course, if they are decapitating people at almost random...it's probably time to introduce them to rarely fought good guys of the Monster Manual.

Emmerask
2013-03-09, 11:55 AM
Of course, if they are decapitating people at almost random...it's probably time to introduce them to rarely fought good guys of the Monster Manual.

Though then the lg cleric canīt really fight or help the group during the fight
at "best" (for the party)... at worst he should actually be on the side of the solar (or whatever is appropriate cr).

Then comes the tpk then the tears :smallbiggrin:

AClockworkMelon
2013-03-09, 03:41 PM
I'll make this my plan BIt should be your plan A.

This is an OOC issue, not an IC one (that's right). Trying to find IC solutions for OOC problems isn't going to work: As usual the solution is to just talk about it with your players. All of them. The funny thing about PC motivation and "playing your alignment" is that ultimately the players are in control of what characters they're playing. If pvp or enforced morality is ruining the fun of members of the group you need to address that OOC. It sounds like most of your players want to play murderhobos, and one doesn't. Neither form of gameplay is more or less legitimate than the other, but they're not going to mesh well together.

Emmerask
2013-03-09, 04:17 PM
It should be your plan A.

This is an OOC issue, not an IC one (that's right). Trying to find IC solutions for OOC problems isn't going to work: As usual the solution is to just talk about it with your players. All of them. The funny thing about PC motivation and "playing your alignment" is that ultimately the players are in control of what characters they're playing. If pvp or enforced morality is ruining the fun of members of the group you need to address that OOC. It sounds like most of your players want to play murderhobos, and one doesn't. Neither form of gameplay is more or less legitimate than the other, but they're not going to mesh well together.

Well as a group game actually the none murder hobo style is far more legitimate because murder hobo style doesnīt play well together, at least if you play with some in character motivation and not completely metagame it:smallwink:

ArcturusV
2013-03-09, 04:43 PM
Well, the IC solution is that Evil =/= Stupid. If you can explain that to your characters they can realize that having a "Goody two shoes" around is a boon to evil guys, rather than something they need to murder. When you have a "Shiny" who is draped in markings of an obviously good god, is an obvious practioner of it, and is devout enough to be able to channel the Shiny Powers of Good and Law, it gives a bit of legitimacy to the team. It gives you access to places you might not otherwise have. Temples might give you free (Or at cost) healing because of the Cleric, rather than deny you because you are unabashedly evil. You have an honest "face" that you can use to get new contracts. No one expects that the guy who is traveling with a servant of the God of Shiny Justicey Good is going to be someone who slits your throat in your sleep.

Frankly, if you're evil, and playing "Evil" properly? You WELCOME a Good character into your party. At the very least associating with you and your bad habits might make them "fall" or become just as evil as you. They can end up using "Good" artifacts that you wouldn't be able to touch, bring a whole new range of powers to the table, etc. And they're Good, Lawful Good at that. They're not going to backstab you. Not until you successfully flip them to Evil, and Chaotic Evil at that. They might get on your case every once in a while about it... but meh. Considering they are "Good" and "Lawful" they shouldn't be going to Player Killing extremes over it unless you really push their buttons. Or you can just do things they don't notice/can't pin on you.

At the very least? That Lawful Good cleric is a source of healing.

Edenbeast
2013-03-09, 04:59 PM
You may solve it in characer by using charisma based skill checks, to see who convinces who...
Or, if that doesn't work then make restrictions on alignment. There's a reason why some GMs let their players roll up only good characters, or in some other corner of the alignment axis. I've been in a party that spit up because two guys decided to be highwaymen robbing travellers, while the other two pc's were good guys not at all intended to lead a criminal lifestyle. In the end the GM quit the campaign because he didn't want to run two different campaigns in the same evening, and have twice the amount of work to prepare. (He actually tried for a couple of sessions).
So if you like your setting and wish to continue, I suggest you make some restrictions. Maybe have the cleric guy roll up a chaotic pc, and not a lawful one, considering that the rest of your party is all on the chaotic side of the table.

Rakoa
2013-03-10, 11:23 AM
You said he's a Cleric? In that case, just optimize him. The evil-doers consist of a Barbarian, and what else? If they other classes are equally low-tiered, a sufficiently optimized Cleric should have zero problems wiping the floor with them. Though that also depends on your levels...

VanIsleKnight
2013-03-10, 01:38 PM
In terms of giving the party a reason to want to keep the cleric alive, besides just healing them and whatnot, tie his life force to something pertinent they all want.

For instance, if he dies, then the rest of the party could become cursed, or gain negative levels, or somehow become critically crippled mechanically so that it is specifically in each of their best interests to keep him alive.

Alternatively, because that's a little bit mean, you could have the cleric's God specifically Mark him with something, so that if anyone in the party should kill him they will suffer horrible consequences and be marked as well. Sort of like Cain and Abel. This is less cruel than the first option, and can be circumvented with clever thinking.

Lastly, he could just be somehow divinely 'lucky' and have a knack of finding 10-20% extra monies or other goodies like that. If they kill or let the cleric be killed, then they lose their magical bonus loot finder.

Personally though, I'm not sure how long a party like this could last traveling together.

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-03-10, 06:21 PM
One question that doesn't seem to have been asked... how much does the cleric mind dying? I mean, you don't want it to be in a "Screw you, you die now" way, but if he's that dedicated a roleplayer, he might like the chance to act out a really epic character death based around treachery and betrayal, or something. I'd at least bring it up with him.

scurv
2013-03-10, 06:40 PM
Add an external threat maybe to put alignment issues on hold? Although lawful goods and lawful evils Can get along well enough sometimes just due to the whole lawful thing. Although that is shaky ground no matter how you look at it. If the evils in the party are more to looking out for number one and less about spreading mayhem and bedlam then It could work.

Toy Killer
2013-03-10, 09:10 PM
Ever see The Good, The Bad and The Ugly?

That is a party of three PCs that want to mercilessly kill each other, but cant, because they need each other.

Note, that The Good, The Bad and The Ugly is one of the highest profile Westerns out there for a good reason. Because of what we call 'Internal Party Conflict'. This isn't nessicarily a bad gig. Tell the LG cleric the secret to defeating the Vampire lord of D'hufri, Tell Member 1 where his crown is and Member 2 how to get through the ashvale swamps.

If one of the others dies, so much for the ____ they would have gained for going through with it.

Fighter1000
2013-03-10, 11:09 PM
I say, let those "stupid evil" characters be taught a lesson, the hard way.
Or, let them be stupid evil until they get bored of being stupid evil.
You could just hang up the DMing hat altogether. That's what I did

GnomeGninjas
2013-03-12, 02:49 PM
IThey ended up gaining absolutely nothing from the dungeon though, other than a succubus draining a level, a suit of armour that wont fit, a cursed dagger
They are loot-hungry because you aren't giving them treasure. I've played in games like this, the only way to have enough wealth is to have a high enough death-rate that the combined starting wealth of dead characters piles up. You shouldn't blame them for taking any excuse they can to stab each other. If you stop being stingy with treasure they'll get less stab-happy with each other. if you keep not giving them loot this turns into a cycle of "players are greedy wealth obsessed bastards, I'll punish them by not giving them wealth"->"the DM isn't giving us any treasure, guess we'll have to sack cities and rob from each other in order to keep up"

they will get railroaded a bit more
This statement implies that you are already rail-roading them a lot. When you have nothing to do but trudge along the DMs plot the temptation to do something unexpected builds and builds. After enough sessions it will result in PVP killing half the path.

Themrys
2013-03-12, 04:14 PM
They are loot-hungry because you aren't giving them treasure. I've played in games like this, the only way to have enough wealth is to have a high enough death-rate that the combined starting wealth of dead characters piles up. You shouldn't blame them for taking any excuse they can to stab each other. If you stop being stingy with treasure they'll get less stab-happy with each other. if you keep not giving them loot this turns into a cycle of "players are greedy wealth obsessed bastards, I'll punish them by not giving them wealth"->"the DM isn't giving us any treasure, guess we'll have to sack cities and rob from each other in order to keep up"

This statement implies that you are already rail-roading them a lot. When you have nothing to do but trudge along the DMs plot the temptation to do something unexpected builds and builds. After enough sessions it will result in PVP killing half the path.


Killing other player characters is not something I would immediately come up with as the solution of a problem, be it lack of treasure (Why would you need imagined treasure anyway? The DM probably wants to keep the characters alive, it's not as if they risk starvation) or boredom.

They could, for example, just have told the DM that they're bored and want treasure.

GnomeGninjas
2013-03-12, 04:36 PM
Killing other player characters is not something I would immediately come up with as the solution of a problem, be it lack of treasure (Why would you need imagined treasure anyway? The DM probably wants to keep the characters alive, it's not as if they risk starvation) or boredom.

They could, for example, just have told the DM that they're bored and want treasure.

Telling the dm that they are bored would certainly have been a better solution, it would risk angering/offending the dm however. Imaginary treasure has several benefits. It allows your characters to be at the power level DnD(3.0-4e, if they're playing some other edition I'm not sure what the assumptions about character wealth are) is designed for. It gives you a sense of accomplishment, a feeling the your characters are gaining power and not just waisting time in dungeons, getting cursed items, and getting violated by succubi. You get cool items that give your character new abilities. It allows you to fantasies about being a super rich person. It lets you buy items that help your character in mechanical(+1 swords) or role-playing(fancy carriage/hiring servants) reasons.

dps
2013-03-12, 05:04 PM
You may solve it in characer by using charisma based skill checks, to see who convinces who...
Or, if that doesn't work then make restrictions on alignment. There's a reason why some GMs let their players roll up only good characters, or in some other corner of the alignment axis. I've been in a party that spit up because two guys decided to be highwaymen robbing travellers, while the other two pc's were good guys not at all intended to lead a criminal lifestyle. In the end the GM quit the campaign because he didn't want to run two different campaigns in the same evening, and have twice the amount of work to prepare. (He actually tried for a couple of sessions).
So if you like your setting and wish to continue, I suggest you make some restrictions. Maybe have the cleric guy roll up a chaotic pc, and not a lawful one, considering that the rest of your party is all on the chaotic side of the table.

I agree that a CG cleric would be a better (or at least less bad) fit for the party.

Beyond that, I see 2 other things that were mentioned but really haven't been talked about much.

First, the barbarian. He's supposed to be CG himself, so don't let him get away with justifying evil acts because of either "Chaotic" or "barbarian". I'm not saying that you shouldn't allow him to do as he pleases, but penalize him. If he does too many evil things, maybe his god will curse him, or his tribe disown him, or, well, come up with your own disincentive.

Second, make sure that any intra-party conflict stays in-character. You said that some of the players expressed OOC glee over killing the priest. If it had been my character, I wouldn't have been too upset over the killing itself (it seems to have been in-character for everyone involved), but OOC gloating about it by other players would have ticked me off big time.

Alejandro
2013-03-12, 05:40 PM
I think your problem is out of game, not in game. Either the players are:

- bored, so they create amusement by causing havoc
- actively don't like you, so they are trying to mess up your game
- are immature or new players, or both.