Making Arcane spells divine and divine spells arcane {WIP, PEACH}

[Fyermind]

First off lets look at why we might want to. Consider the Archivist. If it gets it's hands on a divine scroll it adds it to it's spell list. That could be fantastic if it got arcane spells as well as divine spells. This would be particularly cool if spells with lower levels (as from the bard, or worse, the trapsmith).

In the other direction, we don't have a class like Archivist with a spell list of yes, but we have Erudite with spell to power that only functions on arcane spells. If our Erudite wants heal or divine power on his power list, we need to make divine spells arcane.

This will be a build list written in order of least to most cheesy/likely to work as I see it. I'll try to keep it up to date as I find possibilities.

Spells on both lists Cure light wounds is a bard spell and a cleric spell. Lots of arcane spells are also divine spells, these are the obvious ones.

Divine Bard This one only works for getting bard spells to archivist, but that is a lot of useful arcane spells.

Dragons Some dragons get access to cleric spells as arcane spells. Certain domains also show up this way. Furthermore dragon archetypes from Dragons of Eberron adds more domains and the entire druid list do spells that can be made arcane in this way.

Hexer from Masters of the wild, hexer adds one sorcerer wizard spell to his spell list every even level. Collecting all of the spells may involving interrogating a horde of hexers, but you can get specific spells from them. With reformation effects you can do it with just one.

The Following two methods have numerous problems. Firstly the DMG cites that you can make a scroll of a spell that you know. This may mean you can't get help from another caster to provide the component of the spell you don't know. Second even once you have they aren't on a list of the other spell type, so they might still not qualify depending on your reading of Archivist.

Southern Magician This lets you cast an arcane spell as divine or a divine spells as arcane. This doesn't help for making scrolls directly as I understand it, nor does it work for stealing a spell from someone's mind (it isn't the other spell type until it is cast). But if a southern magician is providing the spell for another character who is crafting the item, the spell is provided as it is cast not as it is prepared.

Geomancer used the same way as southern magician, but geomancer just says you can take advantages of the other spell type but not specifically the other spell type. I am less sure this works.

So what do people think? Please, comment, review, make suggestions, etc.

[Vaz]

Archivist can get Arcane Spells; it has access to Sorcerer, Wizard, and Bard Spells. Only one I don't think it has access to is Wu Jen and War Mage uniques. Admittedly doesn't help with making changing Divine to Arcane.

It's the core behind my "every spell" build.

Wu Jen 3/Archivist 3/Geomancer 2/Incantatrix 3/Geomancer +8/Archmage 1

Admittedly, it doesn't change the actual spell; however, Geomancer 10 allows you to change the parameters at the time of casting, which is why it works.

[thethird]

Doesn't that build lose access to 9th level slots?

[Fyermind]

When you says Archivist gets access to arcane spells, the question is how. I want to turn this into a reference of sorts.

[SaintRidley]

Archivist can get Arcane Spells; it has access to Sorcerer, Wizard, and Bard Spells. Only one I don't think it has access to is Wu Jen and War Mage uniques. Admittedly doesn't help with making changing Divine to Arcane.

Archivist gets arcane spells that show up on divine spell lists. If it's not on a divine list, it can't get them. And they're always divine for the Archivist. It can't just pick up Sorcerer, Wizard, and Bard spells from nothing.

[LTwerewolf]

It does have access to limited wish, so all arcane spells 6th or lower. Most of the best spells end up in the divine area as well.

[Telonius]

Just add dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm).


Spells
A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells.

Dragons with "Can also cast cleric spells and those from the x domains as arcane spells" include: Blue, Red, Brass, Bronze, Copper, Gold, Silver. A Dragon who can cast a Cleric spell as arcane would also be able to Scribe it as a scroll.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Archivist gets arcane spells that show up on divine spell lists. If it's not on a divine list, it can't get them. And they're always divine for the Archivist. It can't just pick up Sorcerer, Wizard, and Bard spells from nothing.

I don't know it off hand, but there is a PrC that draws from the Sorc/Wiz list but they are explicitly Divine spells.

Also, Divine Bard is a thing.

[SaintRidley]

It does have access to limited wish, so all arcane spells 6th or lower. Most of the best spells end up in the divine area as well.

Provided you have a DM willing to throw you a divine scroll of Limited Wish. The archivist is actually quite controllable by the DM in terms of its spell selection, which is something I like about it.

[LTwerewolf]

Provided you have a DM willing to throw you a divine scroll of Limited Wish. The archivist is actually quite controllable by the DM in terms of its spell selection, which is something I like about it.

Just gotta find a cleric with the domain, and you can use his help to make the scroll for yourself. Doable, but yes it does require the DM to be somewhat helpful.

[Vaz]

Archivist gets arcane spells that show up on divine spell lists. If it's not on a divine list, it can't get them. And they're always divine for the Archivist. It can't just pick up Sorcerer, Wizard, and Bard spells from nothing.

Sorcerer and Wizard = Hexer Prestige Class
Bard = Divine Bard.

With Wu Jen, this is essentially all spells, especially when you get Archmage for SLA Miracle and 48 Hour Persist (for free) Body Outside Body Clones (which use SLA Miracle and 48 Hour Persist BOB Clones, ad-infinitum). Use Incantatrix to ban Enchantment (Miracle is Evocation), and outside of any Enchantment Spells of 8th level or higher, this means you have every spell in the game. Just ensure you get yourself Mindblank from elsewhere, and several of the other Enchantment spells.


Doesn't that build lose access to 9th level slots?

No. Put all the spellcasting increases in Wu Jen, and you get Wu Jen 9ths at ECL20. Because of the way that a Wu Jen (and Wizard, but Archivist already has Wizard spells) prepare spells, you can prepare Archivist spells in Wu Jen spell slots; however, you cannot cast them until you get Spell Versatility of the relevant level from Geomancer; replacing the clause for Wu Jen to be limited to casting Arcane Spells from the Wu Jen List, at the time of casting, replace it with the ability to cast as the Archivist. It's not exactly dual 9ths, for the spells per day (you're still limited to Wu Jen 17+Intelligence modifiers and Archivist 3+Wisdom Modifiers).

Archivist 3 is decent as well, because there are a number of 2nd level Domain Spells, and Divine Half-Casters (like Divine Bard, Paladin and Ranger) all have access to, and you can burn several spell slots on them at low levels.

To get 4 9th spells a day, you need and Int of 44. I can't remember off the top of my head, but you can get yourself that with all sorts of stacking jiggery, mostly starting with PAO'ing yourself into a Permanent Duration Pit Fiend.

Why pit fiend? 1; it's only Large, so can still fit in many places. 2; it looks awesome. 3; Stack Greater Visage of the Diety, Giant Size, Bite of the Werebear, all on top of one another. Congratulations, you've now got stats in the region of Str 85, Dex 20, Con 20, Wisdom 30, Intelligence 44, Charisma 20. Remember that with Incantatrix 3 as well, each buff lasts for 48 Hours. Oh, and you can Clone yourself into a minimum of 4, who arguably are affected by all of your spells.

[SaintRidley]

Reading Hexer, you only gain five Sorcerer/Wizard spells. So there would have to be a large number of Hexers who each took a different five spells such that every Sorcerer/Wizard spell that did not find its way into a domain is accounted for. And they have to all be alive. And they all have to be willing to help. Or if they aren't alive, they all made scrolls which you will easily be able to acquire.

As I said, the archivist is pretty controllable. What works on one DM's table, such as your everyspell build, wouldn't necessarily work at another. "That domain doesn't exist. No Hexers in this world. You're not Lawful Good? Good luck finding a paladin willing to share that spell with you. Bards are arcane. No Divine Bards here." Et cetera.

[Fyermind]

Can I get a sourcebook on Hexer?

Also making arcane spells divine for the archivist is looking an awful lot like TO anyway. I'm not too worried about what DMs will allow here. Obviously there will be stricter controls than these I am just trying to examine strict RAW.

[SaintRidley]

Can I get a sourcebook on Hexer?

Also making arcane spells divine for the archivist is looking an awful lot like TO anyway. I'm not too worried about what DMs will allow here. Obviously there will be stricter controls than these I am just trying to examine strict RAW.

Masters of the Wild, from 3e. Hexer was one of the PrCs never updated.

[Vaz]

Reading Hexer, you only gain five Sorcerer/Wizard spells. So there would have to be a large number of Hexers who each took a different five spells such that every Sorcerer/Wizard spell that did not find its way into a domain is accounted for. And they have to all be alive. And they all have to be willing to help. Or if they aren't alive, they all made scrolls which you will easily be able to acquire.

As I said, the archivist is pretty controllable. What works on one DM's table, such as your everyspell build, wouldn't necessarily work at another. "That domain doesn't exist. No Hexers in this world. You're not Lawful Good? Good luck finding a paladin willing to share that spell with you. Bards are arcane. No Divine Bards here." Et cetera.

There is a reason it is TO. The build itself is T0; all the fun with Polymorphing an Outsider and with 9ths from all Divine and Wu Jen with Persistance not relying on DMM (limited by Nightstick availability).

The fact that you get to every potentially every spell in the game... Yeah.

For TO purposes as well, you can just Wish up such a character, and even if they aren't friendly, you can compel them to anyway. You're a wizard, harry, but better.

[holywhippet]

When you says Archivist gets access to arcane spells, the question is how. I want to turn this into a reference of sorts.

From the SRD:
Prerequisites

Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat).

When two spells at the end of a list are separated by "or," one of those spells is required in addition to every other spell mentioned prior to the last two.

So basically you can scribe a scroll with the aid of someone else, like an arcane caster. Since you will be the creator of the scroll, the scroll will be created as a divine type scroll. You can then scribe it into your spell book.

[Vaz]

Holywhippet, that says no such thing from what I can see. It only determines who is the creator for purposes of Spell level. It simply allows a Character with Scribe Scroll to do so for those who do not. It does not change whether it is Divine or Arcane, and unless the spell is otherwise on a Divine Spell-List already.

To get around the limit of spells cast by a Hexer, having a Hexer Cohort with 9ths and using your Miracle SLA to rearrange the spell selection everytime you wish to cast that spell.

Speed it up with the Infinity Psicrystal Trick from the Cohort, each Psicrystal taking Cohort which does such a thing.

[mattie_p]

Holywhippet, that says no such thing from what I can see. It only determines who is the creator for purposes of Spell level. It simply allows a Character with Scribe Scroll to do so for those who do not.

Actually, Scribe Scroll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#scribeScroll) has a special restriction that precludes this.


Benefit
You can create a scroll of any spell that you know.

You have to already know the spell in order to scribe a scroll of it. This is unlike other magic item creation, where the spell knowledge can be contributed by another character.

[holywhippet]

From the SRD:
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)

So if you are the creator of the scroll then the scroll will be divine if you are a divine casting class.

The rules for creating magical items allow you to divide prerequisites up amongst yourselves - so the prerequisite for a spell to be known can be handed off to the person who knows it.

[Vaz]

Yes, but there's no such thing as a "Divine Scroll". There's a Scroll containing a Divine Spell, if that's what you mean, but a Scroll made by an Archivist using the spell of an Arcane Caster is still a spell that has an unmodified class list; which unless it's already learnable by a Divine Caster or on a Domain list, it's impossible to learn as an Archivist.

If you do not have the ability to change the spell-list to that of a Divine Caster's spell-list, you do not have the ability to learn it as an Archivist.

However, there is one class that does allow Sorcerer and Wizard spells to be learned as a Divine Spell; the Hexer from Masters of the Wild, and the Divine Bard allows Bard spells to be learned as Divine Spells. There are also a load of Wizard only spells available as a Divine Spell through Domains, as well as Domains and Bard spells providing massively earlier progression (such as a Druid 5 spell being available through one of the Sand/Thirst Domains at level 2, IIRC).

While you cannot break it with the Trapsmith spell-list (being Arcane, IIRC) to get things like Haste as a 1st, it's still got much earlier spell-progression and access.

I'm writing up a full handbook for the TO purposes for the any spell build, and I've worked out that there are literally only 24 Spells you cannot cast in the game (not including the Sanctified/Corrupt spells from the BoED/BoVD).