Vampire Cleric question

[Peelee]

I believe I saw this mentioned in the 879 Discussion thread, but was not further addressed and now I can't find it. Create Food and Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createFoodAndWater.htm) is a 3rd-level Cleric spell. By description,

The food that this spell creates is simple fare of your choice—highly nourishing, if rather bland.
Would a Vampire Cleric be able to use Create Food and Water to create blood, as that is the Vampire's sole diet?

[Xykon101]

"The food that this spell creates is simple fare of your choice—highly nourishing, if rather bland."

Since it specifies a simple fare of your choice, i could not see why it wouldn't.
Blood is Simplish, bland, and highly nourishing food for a Vampire...

[Kish]

I believe I saw this mentioned in the 879 Discussion thread, but was not further addressed and now I can't find it. Create Food and Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createFoodAndWater.htm) is a 3rd-level Cleric spell. By description,

Would a Vampire Cleric be able to use Create Food and Water to create blood, as that is the Vampire's sole diet?

Effect: Food and water to sustain three humans or one horse/level for 24 hours
Neither humans nor horses can live on a pure diet of human blood, so I'm going to say "no."

...Actually, this makes me notice that there are a whole lot of creatures Create Food and Water is useless to. "Bread? I need live insects!" Other races probably develop their own variations on the caster-is-assumed-human spell in the PHB...

...but I suspect being able to create fake blood that fulfills all a vampire's needs would be a higher-level-than third spell. Durkon might still be able to research one, but it appears Malack never did, and I suspect any time Durkon could put into said researching, a still-wants-to-be-good Durkon would put into scribing a scroll of Resurrection and finding a trustworthy cleric of a good-aligned god to stake him and cast it instead.

[SaintRidley]

"The food that this spell creates is simple fare of your choice—highly nourishing, if rather bland."

Since it specifies a simple fare of your choice, i could not see why it wouldn't.
Blood is Simplish, bland, and highly nourishing food for a Vampire...

I'd allow it. Creative use of the rules.

[Peelee]

Neither humans nor horses can live on a pure diet of human blood, so I'm going to say "no."

...Actually, this makes me notice that there are a whole lot of creatures Create Food and Water is useless to. "Bread? I need live insects!" Other races probably develop their own variations on the caster-is-assumed-human spell in the PHB...
But Vampire is a template, not a race. Would this make a meaningful difference? The fare is of their choice, and there seems to be no limit on what options are available.

EDIT: As with the other two posters, I'd allow it if I were DMing and a player came up with the idea. I'm just trying to see if there is an objective answer, and if the objective answer is "no," why.

[SaintRidley]

Neither humans nor horses can live on a pure diet of human blood, so I'm going to say "no."

...Actually, this makes me notice that there are a whole lot of creatures Create Food and Water is useless to. "Bread? I need live insects!" Other races probably develop their own variations on the caster-is-assumed-human spell in the PHB...


I just mentally change that line to "enough food to sustain three human-sized creatures or one horse-sized creature/3 levels for 24 hours.

[Roland Itiative]

Do D&D vampires even need blood? Sure, they can drain it, and get some benefits for doing so, but I don't think the rules specify that they need it for nourishment.

Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that OotS vampires don't need blood, as we were shown proof enough that they do, but if the D&D rules don't specify this, discussing the RAW is moot here.

[Peelee]

Do D&D vampires even need blood? Sure, they can drain it, and get some benefits for doing so, but I don't think the rules specify that they need it for nourishment.

According to Libris Mortis (Thanks, hamishspence!) without blood they slowly lose sanity and mobility. So they don't need blood, per se, but they'll be crazy and shuffling. They turn into Professor Farnsworth, basically.

[Valwyn]

Technically speaking, blood is mostly water and in this case it's used as food, so I think it could work. It'd be up to the DM, though.

[King of Nowhere]

I suppose the rules as written are open to interpretation, so it's up to the master to decide.
Which means that rich can decide both ways, depending on how it fits the plot.

Well, he still could have done it anyway and called it an houseruling, but that way there will be less people complaining.

[Peelee]

I suppose the rules as written are open to interpretation, so it's up to the master to decide.
Which means that rich can decide both ways, depending on how it fits the plot.

Well, he still could have done it anyway and called it an houseruling, but that way there will be less people complaining.

If Durkon were to stay a Vampire, it'd be a pretty interesting way to keep him nourished. Though I'm unsure whether the Giant will have Durkon stay a vampire, or even have Durkon embrace evil...ity.

[LuPuWei]

It also depends on whether they need the blood as physical nutrition, or more as a spiritual ritual, ie, replenish their negative energies by the act of draining blood from another living being. That also ties into whether or not a vampire could just rob a blood bank or eat mosquitos to survive...

[KillingAScarab]

Do D&D vampires even need blood? Sure, they can drain it, and get some benefits for doing so, but I don't think the rules specify that they need it for nourishment.

Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that OotS vampires don't need blood, as we were shown proof enough that they do, but if the D&D rules don't specify this, discussing the RAW is moot here.The third edition Ravenloft book was put out by an imprint of White Wolf, the company that made Vampire. In that, vampires have age categories and if a vampire didn't consume at least 4 constitution points worth of blood in a day they could gain negative levels and be considered a lower age category. If they ever dropped down to level 1 from negative levels they became very feral. Also, in their view, the vampires needed blood as nourishment because their bodies were not entirely dead, so I wonder how many other people thought of create food and water to circumvent this.

In 4th ed. D&D, the vampire class from Heroes of Shadow is straight-jacketed, as I understand it, by their need for blood/healing surges. They have powers which allow them to spend healing surges for extra benefits, but they only get two per day, their only way to gain them in battle is through one encounter power and they can't keep any over two after a short rest. People would write "handooks" on the optimization of various classes on the Wizards of the Coast forums, but the only one I have come across so far for vampires is titled, "I just don't want to suck."


According to Libris Mortis (Thanks, hamishspence!) without blood they slowly lose sanity and mobility. So they don't need blood, per se, but they'll be crazy and shuffling. They turn into Professor Farnsworth, basically.Good news, everyone! I have aided Billy West in attaining a form of immortality.

[NerdyKris]

Durkon might still be able to research one, but it appears Malack never did, and I suspect any time Durkon could put into said researching, a still-wants-to-be-good Durkon would put into scribing a scroll of Resurrection and finding a trustworthy cleric of a good-aligned god to stake him and cast it instead.

The spell says "bland food". Not yummy food. For instance, we currently have nutrient logs and MREs in real life. People don't eat them except in emergencies because they taste awful. Food isn't just about sustanence, it's about taste as well.

So while any vampire cleric might have access to the spell, it's far more likely that they'd prefer to drink real blood when available, just like a real life human would prefer regular food. Such as, for instance, a tasty paralyzed halfling that has enough blood in him to fill up without killing him.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

It also depends on whether they need the blood as physical nutrition, or more as a spiritual ritual, ie, replenish their negative energies by the act of draining blood from another living being. That also ties into whether or not a vampire could just rob a blood bank or eat mosquitos to survive...

Well, bloodwart tea seemed to work, so blood banks and mosquitos should all be okay for the dietary requirement, though it's hard to get enough volume for the extra healing that way.

I play a lot of Shadowrun, so I'd just be looking for any blood that still maintains the aura of having come from a living creature at some point. Create food and water wouldn't work, but there's no rule against feeding on a summoned fiendish weasel.

Then again, I'd probably say that being a summoned creature messes up the aura, too, just to keep it from being so easy. I seem to remember summoned monsters getting all of their blood back when they're dismissed anyway.


Peelee: [Vampires] don't need blood, per se... They turn into Professor Farnsworth [without it], basically.

Good news, everyone! I have aided Billy West in attaining a form of immortality.I endorse this heartily.

[Peelee]

The spell says "bland food". Not yummy food. For instance, we currently have nutrient logs and MREs in real life. People don't eat them except in emergencies because they taste awful. Food isn't just about sustanence, it's about taste as well.

Speak for yourself. Army/Navy surplus store behind my shop had a going out of business sale, and those were dirt cheap. Had lunch for weeks.


So while any vampire cleric might have access to the spell, it's far more likely that they'd prefer to drink real blood when available, just like a real life human would prefer regular food. Such as, for instance, a tasty paralyzed halfling that has enough blood in him to fill up without killing him.

Oh, It's definitely more likely any given vampire cleric might prefer fresh, bodily blood to magically created. Doesn't mean Vampy Durkon couldn't gt away with it. He suffered years and years away from his beloved homeland just so he could do his duty. I don't think he would take too much issue with "this magically created blood lacks the smoked gouda taste of fresh goblin."




Good news, everyone! I have aided Billy West in attaining a form of immortality.

I endorse this heartily.

Agreed.

[sockmonkey]

I see this a lot in discussions about vampire dietary habits. This also crops up in movies where they try and "science up" how vampires work so that it makes more sense, which seems mostly for the sake of nitpickers and rules lawyers. It usually just winds up making everything seem silly.

Vampires are supernatural creatures. Full stop.
They do not have an iron deficiency or any such nonsense.
They are not "digesting" the blood in the conventional sense as they are a dead creature.

What they get from the blood is a spiritual/symbolic energy that comes from the fact that it's from a living creature just like the heart is a symbolic focus for the forces that animate it rather than just a blood pump.

So while create food and water should be able to create basic blood or meat since darn near every sort of living thing is food for something, it would be useless for a vampire as it would lack the particular aspect that they draw nourishment from.

If you want science-y vampires, fine. Just do like they did in Blindsight and make them mutants or genetically modified and ditch any supernatural aspect.

[skim172]

I don't see why not, but if I was DM'ing, I probably wouldn't allow it. I suppose I feel it defeats the point of vampirism if you didn't have to stealthily prey upon the living innocents in order to survive. It's supposed to be a challenge.

I have to agree with the above poster that attempting to "science up" being a vampire doesn't really work. The idea of a vampire is built around the notion that blood is linked directly to your lifeforce. Modern science has shown that while you certainly need blood to live, it doesn't necessarily give life on its own. My friend came up with the idea of some unknown particle or component of blood that maintains the link of consciousness between the vampires' soul and carcass, but that brings up a whole bunch of other questions.

I read a webcomic somewhere that had an interesting spin on the notion that vampirism is supernatural, rather than biological. Getting bitten by a vampire = evil corruption, so obviously, the cure for vampirism = getting bitten by a priest. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

I have to agree with the above poster that attempting to "science up" being a vampire doesn't really work. The idea of a vampire is built around the notion that blood is linked directly to your lifeforce. Modern science has shown that while you certainly need blood to live, it doesn't necessarily give life on its own. My friend came up with the idea of some unknown particle or component of blood that maintains the link of consciousness between the vampires' soul and carcass, but that brings up a whole bunch of other questions.

I rather liked Mimir.net's take on the subject:
http://mimir.net/essays/planarphysics.html

[Psyren]

...Actually, this makes me notice that there are a whole lot of creatures Create Food and Water is useless to. "Bread? I need live insects!" Other races probably develop their own variations on the caster-is-assumed-human spell in the PHB...

Though I do agree with your interpretation, I will point out that humans can indeed eat insects :smalltongue:

[Kish]

Yes, but the spell won't create creatures who are alive at the time. :smalltongue:

[Geordnet]

Vampires are supernatural creatures. Full stop.
They do not have an iron deficiency or any such nonsense.
They are not "digesting" the blood in the conventional sense as they are a dead creature.

What they get from the blood is a spiritual/symbolic energy that comes from the fact that it's from a living creature just like the heart is a symbolic focus for the forces that animate it rather than just a blood pump.
This.

This is what I hate most about modern "vampires". They've done everything they can to discard what makes a vampire a vampire: unnaturally extending one's own life by stealing that of others. A literal "pact with the devil" sort of thing.

If I were GMing a setting with vampires, not only would I not allow the Create Food and Drink spell to sustain a vampire, I would also make the effects of vampirism permanent: a vampire is literally taking years off the end of its victim's life.


(I'd also have vampires exclusively be ugly peasants, and limit the effect of wooden stakes to nailing a vampire to the rear of its coffin, but that's beside the point...)

[Raineh Daze]

This is what I hate most about modern "vampires". They've done everything they can to discard what makes a vampire a vampire: unnaturally extending one's own life by stealing that of others. A literal "pact with the devil" sort of thing.

Originally, vampires weren't stealing life. They were just violent OCD corpses (so very OCD) that had to go back to their graves before the end of the night. The vampires you seem to be referring to are less than 200 years old, so I'm not quite sure where the objection comes from.

[ReaderAt2046]

I have to agree with the above poster that attempting to "science up" being a vampire doesn't really work. The idea of a vampire is built around the notion that blood is linked directly to your lifeforce. Modern science has shown that while you certainly need blood to live, it doesn't necessarily give life on its own. My friend came up with the idea of some unknown particle or component of blood that maintains the link of consciousness between the vampires' soul and carcass, but that brings up a whole bunch of other questions.

I've read at least one story where it is explicitly stated that that world's vampires don't actually drink blood. They lterally absorb the life force of their victims, but they need physical contact with the victim's blood to do it. It doesn't have to be through the mouth though, just a finger or toe touching a single drop of blood is enough to kill.

[sockmonkey]

I read a webcomic somewhere that had an interesting spin on the notion that vampirism is supernatural, rather than biological. Getting bitten by a vampire = evil corruption, so obviously, the cure for vampirism = getting bitten by a priest. :smallbiggrin:
So he became... A were-priest! Stalking the night in search of sinners to forgive. Sorry couldn't resist.

I rather liked Mimir.net's take on the subject:
http://mimir.net/essays/planarphysics.htmlClever and well-written but it seems to complicate it too much.
His bit on the elements was similar. However, that one is actually easy to resolve with modern science because the classic four elements do line up perfectly with the four states of matter. Solid, liquid, gas, and plasma.
I'm certainly not the only person to have ever noticed this.

Yes, but the spell won't create creatures who are alive at the time. :smalltongue:No reason it couldn't create dead bug meat though.

The vampires you seem to be referring to are less than 200 years old, so I'm not quite sure where the objection comes from.It's not the modern vampire itself, but the crap from the last 20 years when they started being "trendy" that gives everyone headaches.
Good lord, sparkles??? Are they effin' kidding?

[Kareasint]

It's not the modern vampire itself, but the crap from the last 20 years when they started being "trendy" that gives everyone headaches.
Good lord, sparkles??? Are they effin' kidding?

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[Onyavar]

Since Durkon's a cleric, he could just suck his blood from one creature and then cast (greater?) restoration to cure said creature.

For example, from Belkar once he rejoins the order.

[rewinn]

No reason it couldn't create dead bug meat though....

Shrimp? Lobster?

Or ...most likely ... perhaps that strange "krab" stuff you get in some cheap sushi.