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Mr. Mask
2013-03-08, 12:57 PM
I have read quite a few books about publishing books. But never have I read anything on how to publish Pen and Paper RPGs.

Since it occurred to me that I haven't read everything in the world (yet), I thought someone knowledgeable about Tabletop games might know (who has read everything in the world, tabletop-related).

Would someone be inclined to inform me whether material on how to publish a tabletop game exists? Any information or advice would be well appreciated in a non-monetary fashion.


This is my first post on these boards. Looking forward to meeting you all, and indulging myself in discussions ripe with nerdom.


PS: In the event where no one who has read everything in the world tabletop-related reads and responds to this thread, someone who has read half of everything is perfectly acceptable (though highly disappointing).

Talakeal
2013-03-08, 03:33 PM
As someone who hopes to publish and RPG I the next year I will share what I have heard so far, which is not much unfortunately.


Unlike fiction no publishing house is going to help you publish an RPG until you have worked with the company for a very long time working on other people's games, and probably not even then.

Most people self publish these days, and most of that is done as PDF e books rather than physical copies, although who can tell what the future holds. Ebooks are becoming more predominant, but the costs of traditional publishing are also going down. Of course, printing is the easy part, distribution is the real challenge once you have the physical copies.

Hopefully someone with a lot more knowledge than I will post here soon, as I am curious as to the "answer".

Also, you might want to check out the podcast Fear The Boot as they have been talking about self publishing the past couple of episodes and their forum is generally friendly and helpful.

EccentricCircle
2013-03-08, 04:01 PM
Independant RPGs seem to usually be published either as PDF ebooks or through a print on demand system (I believe there are a few different print on demand companies but don't know any details as its not something i've looked into.) I've seen kickstarter projects discussed, but don't know how effective those are.

The general advice is not to expect massive returns from self publishing. There seem to be three ways to make money out of RPGs
1) Write for an established game such as D&D, World of Darkness etc. which requires getting freelance work from the relevant company.
2) Write an RPG about an established and already popular work, Star Wars, the Lord of the Rings etc. Which requires working for whoever has the liecense.
3) Write something amazingly innovative and brilliant.

So basically the best reason to write an RPG is because you have a great idea for a game and you want to let other people play that game. Sorry if that seems a bit negative.

What some people do is put out stuff for free, get people talking about it and playing it so as to build up a reputation in the industry which could then lead to jobs with established companies. But i've no idea how effective that actually is.

Grinner
2013-03-08, 04:02 PM
If you're on a budget, yes, ebooks are probably the way to go, but meatspace books have their own charm. There's something to be said for having a personal library all your own.

Thus certain distributors, Lulu.com and I think DriveThruRPG, offer the option of Print-on-Demand. I gather that it's a little more intensive to self-publish with PoD rather than just uploading a PDF, but some people do prefer shelving stuffers over PDFs. I think they also take a slightly larger cut of the profits, but hey, it's better than ordering a full print run that doesn't sell.


The general advice is not to expect massive returns from self publishing. There seem to be three ways to make money out of RPGs
1) Write for an established game such as D&D, World of Darkness etc. which requires getting freelance work from the relevant company.
2) Write an RPG about an established and already popular work, Star Wars, the Lord of the Rings etc. Which requires working for whoever has the liecense.
3) Write something amazingly innovative and brilliant.

"How do you make a small fortune in the RPG industry?"

"Start with a large fortune."

Synovia
2013-03-08, 04:40 PM
Generally, self publishing books is a bad idea (you end up with boxes of books you need to sell yourself), but the whole Kickstarter thing is starting to change that. Being able to get money up front takes a lot of the risk out of self publishing.

Frankly, I think the traditional publishing model doesn't have much time left.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-03-08, 04:50 PM
This is my first post on these boards. Looking forward to meeting you all, and indulging myself in discussions ripe with nerdom.

Well hello and welcome! :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately, however, there isn't a lot of information out there on publishing your independent RPG. You can find little tidbits of information and some user experience and/or tips & tricks, but nothing that really seems to fit what you're looking for.

RPG.net's "publish on demand" seems to be somewhat popular, but the most successful self-published RPG games I've encountered recently are typically done via Kickstarter, which is a great way to get an RPG published if you have connections at enough gaming sites and with enough gamers.

If you don't have those connections, I'd recommend trying to make them. Show bits of your work, get people talking about it, and then give Kickstarter a try.

ArcturusV
2013-03-08, 04:56 PM
And never underestimate the value of making connections with brick and mortar stores in your area. Gotta put in that leg work and such. Being able to run some demos there, playtest groups, get some fans excited about what you're doing... none of that can hurt you any. Might be a real boon so that when you do start something like a Kickstarter project you already got some people hooked on your idea to start out.

Conners
2013-03-09, 12:07 AM
RPG.net's "publish on demand" seems to be somewhat popular, but the most successful self-published RPG games I've encountered recently are typically done via Kickstarter, which is a great way to get an RPG published if you have connections at enough gaming sites and with enough gamers.

If you don't have those connections, I'd recommend trying to make them. Show bits of your work, get people talking about it, and then give Kickstarter a try. Could you please explain a bit more about these connections? Wondering how people make these sorts of connections.

Like, by bits of work, do you mean mechanics from the Tabletop game before it is finished?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-03-09, 12:36 AM
Could you please explain a bit more about these connections? Wondering how people make these sorts of connections.

Honestly? Being a presence, showing you know what you're talking about, releasing homebrew content that shows you're a good designer, writing a solid blog or interesting articles on the hobby, and so forth. It's difficult, but a few people have really done it. FATE began as a FUDGE hack, Old School Hack started on a small forum (if I recall correctly), TheDementedOne got hired to do work for Exalted as a result of the praise his Exalted Charms received...and so on.

It's hard to get noticed, but it is possible. I'm no real expert.


Like, by bits of work, do you mean mechanics from the Tabletop game before it is finished?

That helps, yes. It's far easier to support a game I've seen a bit of (whether it be mechanics or flavor) than one I haven't. I know I don't tend to buy games without flipping through the core rulebook or looking for online reviews, for example: I want to make sure I'm buying a quality product that will inspire me or at least keep my interest.

This is especially true if I'm supporting a Kickstarter project: I want to know my money is going to be used well, and that something awesome will be produced.

FATE Core, for example, got an instant pledge from me because I've played the old edition and found it to be utterly brilliant in every way. Dredge got me to buy a copy by selling me on it's use of Jenga! to simulate a horror scenario. Deadlands sold me on its awesome setting material, as did Eberron with its setting and its illustrations. People will want to know why your game is so special, and why they should support it. If that means a playtest rules-lite version to show off the conflict resolution mechanic or a brief primer on why your world is so interesting, so be it. You have to have a product to sell though: I'm still a pretty well regarded homebrewer here on GiantitP, but if I posted a thread linking to a Kickstarter and said "I'm releasing a game! Donate!" without showing any work or any sort of hook to gather interest, I don't think I'd get a dime.

Mr. Mask
2013-03-09, 02:17 AM
Would like to thank you all for sharing what you know with everyone reading this thread.


Have to agree with Talakeal and the others. Big publishers in the RPG industry aren't interested in marketting works which aren't an extension of their own, with few exceptions.

Would also like to give extra thanks to Talakeal for pointing me to the Fear the Boot podcast. Going to download a number of those and listen to them.



"How do you make a small fortune in the RPG industry?"

"Start with a large fortune." Unfortunate and truthfully so. As has been pointed out things are a little better with Kickstarter.



Well hello and welcome! Thank you, Djinn :smallsmile:.

Was going to ask you about connections, but Conners beat me to the punch.

Zahhak
2013-03-09, 01:16 PM
I'm sort of surprised this is still up...

I wonder if the same basic advice would apply to someone trying to sell a third person world setting.

Grinner
2013-03-09, 02:24 PM
I'm sort of surprised this is still up...

I wonder if the same basic advice would apply to someone trying to sell a third person world setting.

They say that selling a setting is much easier than selling a ruleset.

Terraoblivion
2013-03-09, 02:56 PM
Sage Genesis, one of the three designers of Legends of the Wulin, has some thoughts on this. Especially on why you perhaps shouldn't. It's pretty interesting, if rather basic. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA_EJ2wsHfk&list=UUKmpGeL4VfX9l9LFCkCqs7Q&index=3)

Rhynn
2013-03-09, 08:02 PM
You could ask around (on their forums, by email, whatever) at some small RPG (self-)publishers - even just for advice, or maybe about actually getting published with their help:

http://bravehalfling.com/

http://www.autarch.co/

http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/

PDF self-publishing is surely the easiest, but a lot of old-school renaissance (OGL D&D retroclone) RPGs also do print copies.

Kickstarters are ... tricky. Especially in the RPG field. There are some really bad experiences with vaporware or just seriously delayed projects (*cough* Dwimmermount *cough*). Just because you raise the money you think you need doesn't mean, and to raise that money at all you need a huge online presence (that means blogs; easier within the OSR). Dwimmermount raised a bit under $50,000 from a bit over 1,000 backers, and it's probably the most famous dungeon from the most famous OSR blog by a guy who's actually worked in the field (and now everyone's furious because it's in Limbo, and not the kind with slaad).

Unless you're already a pro who has been involved in writing and publishing RPG books, your chances of pulling off a Kickstarter are probably nil. If you could get some people who are pros at the publishing to help, and convinced them you have ideas and can put them to paper with a deadline, you might be able to do it, too.

Publishing anything is hard, pretty much.

Xeratos
2013-03-09, 09:46 PM
Publishing anything is hard, pretty much.

Aint it the truth. From personal experience, what I'll say about publishing your work is this: marketing and distribution are way harder than creating the work itself. You can make something great, pour your heart and sweat and tears into it, and it'll get lost amidst a thousand other products if you can't find a way to draw attention to it. The amount of legwork needed to make people interested in what you're selling is staggering (and can be financially draining, too).

Best of luck.

Mr. Mask
2013-03-10, 12:50 AM
Aint it the truth. From personal experience, what I'll say about publishing your work is this: marketing and distribution are way harder than creating the work itself. You can make something great, pour your heart and sweat and tears into it, and it'll get lost amidst a thousand other products if you can't find a way to draw attention to it. The amount of legwork needed to make people interested in what you're selling is staggering (and can be financially draining, too).

Best of luck. Would it be correct to estimate that the legwork isn't complicated, but is simply intensive? Hunting down every podcast, review site, blog, twitter, etc. in an attempt to get as many of them talking about you as possible?

ArcturusV
2013-03-10, 12:52 AM
I would say it's difficult in the concept of finding a place to start to tackle it all. It's like... when I had to get my ID back after a bad theft at home. And every government agency was telling me I needed something from two to five other government agencies before they would give me something.

It's difficult in that sense. There's a lot to do, a lot of avenues, a lot of items to cover. And there is no clear starting point and almost everyone will tell you that you need to do something else before you deal with them.

Xeratos
2013-03-10, 01:32 AM
Would it be correct to estimate that the legwork isn't complicated, but is simply intensive? Hunting down every podcast, review site, blog, twitter, etc. in an attempt to get as many of them talking about you as possible?

Probably a bit of both. I'm not very successful myself, so I can't honestly say what makes a product sell. I can say that having a great product is only a part of it though. But yes, it's a time sink to promote yourself. Self publishing seems to require a huge internet presence simply to get people to look at what you're promoting.

After that, you have to get them interested enough to crack the spine and see what's actually there. If you're offering a free product, this is a bit easier to do, but if you want money for it, then you've got to be really convincing. And of course, at this point, having a great product comes into play. But it's a lot of work to even get to the point where what you've made can shine on its own.

But hey, if you do happen to make it big, be sure to come back and let us know what worked for you. There's so much homebrew on these forums, I'm sure there are dozens of people who'd like to know.

Grinner
2013-03-10, 02:37 AM
Probably a bit of both. I'm not very successful myself, so I can't honestly say what makes a product sell. I can say that having a great product is only a part of it though. But yes, it's a time sink to promote yourself. Self publishing seems to require a huge internet presence simply to get people to look at what you're promoting.

After that, you have to get them interested enough to crack the spine and see what's actually there. If you're offering a free product, this is a bit easier to do, but if you want money for it, then you've got to be really convincing. And of course, at this point, having a great product comes into play. But it's a lot of work to even get to the point where what you've made can shine on its own.

Terraoblivion's link actually goes into this. (Thanks for sharing, by the way.)

The guy gives two key pieces of advice. Only the second deals with actually creating a quality piece of game design. The first is concerned with building enough reputation in RPG communities to actually garner interest in the first place, and the short of it is that there is no immediate gratification.

mjlush
2013-03-10, 06:10 PM
I have read quite a few books about publishing books. But never have I read anything on how to publish Pen and Paper RPGs.


That's because anyone wanting to sell an RPG should expect to louse money hand over fist... even if there doing it for fun.

Rhynn
2013-03-10, 07:14 PM
That's because anyone wanting to sell an RPG should expect to louse money hand over fist... even if there doing it for fun.

You'd think that'd mean that, since the best thing for a professional RPG publisher to do money-wise would be to become a professional how-to-publishi-RPGs-book author... :smallamused: Unless, of course, none of them wanted money to begin with. :smalleek:

Talakeal
2013-03-10, 10:25 PM
You'd think that'd mean that, since the best thing for a professional RPG publisher to do money-wise would be to become a professional how-to-publishi-RPGs-book author... :smallamused: Unless, of course, none of them wanted money to begin with. :smalleek:

Successful companies don't like competition, which is what giving advice to upstarts would create. See for example WoTCs long standing refusal to sell .pdfs or licenses to print older editions of the rules because, even though it would make them money and required virtually no effort on their part, it would still create "competition" for their current books.

mjlush
2013-03-11, 08:41 AM
You'd think that'd mean that, since the best thing for a professional RPG publisher to do money-wise would be to become a professional how-to-publishi-RPGs-book author... :smallamused: Unless, of course, none of them wanted money to begin with. :smalleek:

I think it may be more that the market for RPG's is pretty smal and the market of people who want to publish RPG's is even smaller...

Just had a quick google came up with some posts about it.

https://www.gamer-lifestyle.com/tag/rpg-publishing/

http://www.genesisoflegend.com/2010/10/steps-to-publish-an-rpg/

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=6741