Combining TWF and Power Attack?

[Nettlekid]

I know that most of the time, if you're dealing with melee, this is the essential argument. Do you want many attacks, or one strong one? If you've got something like a Rogue that does bonus damage per attack, go many attacks with TWF. If you have something that multiplies total damage per attack, go strong attack with Power Attack. But...why don't we do both? Why not get lots of high damage attacks?

Here's a build I thought of which I think has decent potential for that. You can move base classes around when prereqs are met for PrCs, if you choose.
Shifter Bloodclaw Master:
Ranger 6/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Warshaper 4/Warblade 1/Bloodclaw Master 5/Warblade +1/Swordsage 1

Ranger is good to get BAB without multiclassing penalties (Shifter's favored class) and it gets two free TWF feats, as well as other little things. Fighter is there for the bonus feat. Barbarian is there for Pounce. Because you're a Shifter you qualify for Warshaper, giving +4 Str and Con, Fast Healing, and extra natural attacks in any form that isn't your own (Shifter form and/or Bloodclaw Master form). Warblade gives you a few maneuvers which you'll spend on Tiger Claw stuff, including the useful Sudden Leap. Then you go Bloodclaw Master to get the shifted form and lose your TWF penalties. The next Warblade gives you a 7th level Tiger Claw maneuver, and the final Swordsage dip gives you plenty of goodies.

So you end up with BAB 16, two weapons that you can attack with a total of 7 times in a full attack, and then drop to get in one attack with each of your natural weapons (two claws from Bloodclaw, fangs from Shifter, and anything else you decide to grow from Warshaper). You'll have taken Shock Trooper so you don't lose your to-hit, but with Leap Attack you'll get +32 damage with every attack. That's about 320+32*grown natural weapons damage, not including regular weapon damage. And that's only using one modifier to Power Attack, which you could improve with Battle Jump or other feats. What do you think?

[Greenish]

Exotic Weapon Master and Revenant Blade are the usual answers for combining PA and TWF, but I guess getting a bunch of natural attacks works too.

[TopCheese]

I'm sure there is a way to get two more arms... Then thf and twf at the same time...

[Greenish]

I'm sure there is a way to get two more arms... Then thf and twf at the same time...Diopsid from Dragon Compendium are designed for that. They even get an exception for the Dex requirement on TWF feats.

[Nettlekid]

It's not so much a matter of getting a lot of natural attacks, just that the way I see it, you get a better return from Power Attack if you sacrifice just a single multiplier, the 2:1 versus 1:1 return for two-handed versus one-handed, and then make more attacks. For example:

Let's say you use two Fighters with all the bonus feats they needs, because although the smaller amount of lost BAB with classes like Rogue would add up, I don't want to deal with it just now. Both have all the same feats, but one fights with a two-handed weapon and one fights with two weapons.
A THF Power Attack from a level 20 Fighter: 20/15/10/5, four attacks, and the PA payoff you get is 20*(2+1 (Leap Attack))*2 (Battle Jump)=120 damage per attack, 500 damage total with those four attacks.
The TWF Power Attack from a level 20 Fighter: 20/20/15/15/10/10/5, seven attacks, and the PA payoff is 20*(1+1 (Leap Attack))*2 (Battle Jump)=80 damage per attack, 560 damage total with those seven attacks.

So right there, we see an increase. If they didn't have Battle Jump, the totals would be 300 and 280, so the THF wins out. Without Leap Attack, the totals are 320 and 280, so the THF still wins. But with them both, the TWF pulls ahead. That means that the more multipliers you're able to get on the attack, the better TWF pays out. Imagine both of these Fighters are Orcs with Headlong Rush.
THF Fighter: (20*(2+1))*3 on four attacks=720
TWF Fighter: (20*(1+1))*3 on seven attacks=840.
If they're hasted, so they each gain an extra attack, those totals change to 900 and 960, so the THF Fighter catches up a little.

By this we see that the more attacks a THF gets the closer they can catch up to the TWF, and the more multipliers a TWF can get the closer they can pull ahead of the THF. This is obvious, because the discrepancy between number of attacks and multiplier on the attacks is the only difference between the two to begin with. But as we know from all that PA optimization, isn't it easier to get multipliers than more attacks? Or, if you're able to get more attacks that you'd add only 1:1 PA to (like natural attacks) then the TWF keeping ahead linearly.

Of course, you could get the best of both worlds by wielding a Spiked Chain, which you can use to TWF and THF at the same time.
Chain Fighter: (20*(2+1))*3 on seven attacks=1260.
Thanks for making us all useless, Chain Fighter.

[Greenish]

Spiked Chain isn't a double weapon.


Also you don't have to choose between 2:1 PA and TWFing.

[Darrin]

You don't need to use a spiked chain to combine TWF + PA. Any two-handed weapon + unarmed strike will do: two-handed weapon (primary), unarmed strike (offhand), then add natural attacks (secondary). I think I prefer Darfellen, Warforged or Kobold over Shifter (permanent bite or slam attack). This gets you PA multipliers on your primary weapon, and x1.0 PA damage on your offhand/secondary attacks. As you add more attacks, this "multiplies" the PA damage every time you get another hit.

(There's a section on this in the TWF handbook I'm working on.)