Worst feat ... that you still might take

[Shining Wrath]

I've seen "worst feat" contests, and silly things like "Skill Focus: Language" usually win. But I've never heard of anyone suggesting that you'd want to take "SF: L". I've never seen a build that relies on it.

I have, however, seen builds that made use of "Dodge". For example, right now the Iron Chef contest secret ingredient class is Bladesinger, and "Dodge" is a prerequisite for the class. "Dodge" is also a prerequisite for the Master of Nine class from Tome of Battle. And a couple of dozen feats, some of which may be useful from time to time.

Setting aside the function of a prerequisite, "Dodge" is strictly inferior to adding +1 to your armor. I can't imagine taking it just to improve your AC. It is only taken, ever, as a gate to something else.

"Quick Draw" comes to mind, because you can replicate it for the cost of a Least Crystal of Return from MIC. However, you need one crystal per weapon, and there is the opportunity cost of not being able to attach, e.g., a Lesser Truedeath Crystal instead. I, myself, would much rather have the Truedeath Crystal for most situations.

So I'm going to stick with "Dodge" as the worst feat that people who know what they are doing still do include in their builds. But you get to argue with me, which is why The Giant in his manifest wisdom hath included a "Reply" button.

[Deathra13]

There is an entirely useless 3rd party feat that I absolutely love in Feats and in Ultimate Feats, called Spell Effects, you get to decide the appearance of your spells, if the gm finds them unique enough he can increase the spellcraft dc to recognize the spell, but otherwise it literally has no rules function, its entirely flavor with a dm dependent rule, and yet I will always take it when its an option.

[Xerxus]

Combat expertise.

I have never wanted to use this in combat.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I never take Dodge. Midnight Dodge and Expeditious Dodge exist. I have taken Subtle Sigil a few times.

[Silva Stormrage]

I personally think that the Spell Thematic feat is amusing XD. It may not be particularly strong but it is fun to add to a build if I am trying to go less op'ed than normal.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

There is an entirely useless 3rd party feat that I absolutely love in Feats and in Ultimate Feats, called Spell Effects, you get to decide the appearance of your spells, if the gm finds them unique enough he can increase the spellcraft dc to recognize the spell, but otherwise it literally has no rules function, its entirely flavor with a dm dependent rule, and yet I will always take it when its an option.

Spell Thematics from Player's guide to Faerun does that. So if you love it and want it in a game that doesn't allow whatever 3rd party book you were using. Personally I don't use it because the DMG says doing that without a feat is an option.

@Shining I'll see your Dodge for PrCs and raise you Endurance for Steadfast Determination.

[Shining Wrath]

There is an entirely useless 3rd party feat that I absolutely love in Feats and in Ultimate Feats, called Spell Effects, you get to decide the appearance of your spells, if the gm finds them unique enough he can increase the spellcraft dc to recognize the spell, but otherwise it literally has no rules function, its entirely flavor with a dm dependent rule, and yet I will always take it when its an option.

For some reason, I'm seeing this as very "Spontaneous Caster". Bards and Sorcerers should be all over that because they are all different. Wizards, not so much.

[Shining Wrath]

@Shining I'll see your Dodge for PrCs and raise you Endurance for Steadfast Determination.

Ooooo. That's a good one. One of the first things I did when I rolled up a Warforged was convince my DM that all Warforged have Endurance, in terms of qualifying for things. What's the point of a feat that gives +4 to a suffocation check to a creature that doesn't even breathe? Or +4 to continue running to a creature that does not tire?

So, yeah, with you on that one.

[Shining Wrath]

I never take Dodge. Midnight Dodge and Expeditious Dodge exist. I have taken Subtle Sigil a few times.

Expeditious Dodge is probably 2x as good as Dodge - but that's still not that good. It is a sign of how lame Dodge is that people create other feats that you can take in its place.

[Chilingsworth]

I'm rather fond of Spellcasting Prodigy. The PGtF version (as the FRCS version is outdated.) I usually take it for my primary casters.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I never take Dodge. Midnight Dodge and Expeditious Dodge exist. I have taken Subtle Sigil a few times.

Desertwind Dodge is also decent; minimum 10ft movement +1 AC +1 Fire damage on melee attacks.

[CaladanMoonblad]

Combat expertise.

I have never wanted to use this in combat.

My eldritch knight uses it all the time for a +5 to AC boost. It saves me quite a bit of damage and he can still cast spells.

[Greenish]

Ooooo. That's a good one. One of the first things I did when I rolled up a Warforged was convince my DM that all Warforged have Endurance, in terms of qualifying for things. What's the point of a feat that gives +4 to a suffocation check to a creature that doesn't even breathe? Or +4 to continue running to a creature that does not tire?Warforged are not actually immune to the non-lethal damage from forced march, so if they don't stop to rest every now and then, they can knock themselves unconscious.

Which is pretty bad when you remember that they don't heal naturally, so unless someone comes along to help them, they will stay that way forever.


My eldritch knight uses it all the time for a +5 to AC boost. It saves me quite a bit of damage and he can still cast spells.You mean with touch attack spells or what?

[Phelix-Mu]

I've already instituted house rule that makes Dodge and Mobility into one feat...still not sure it's good enough to be balanced, but I needed to deal with the feat tax nightmare that is the Spring Attack tree.

I actually have used Endurance before, kind of.

Does anyone around here actually use Spell Mastery? It always struck me as a good feat concept, but very poor design, since you pretty much want it for early levels, when you are most likely to get spellbooks stolen/destroyed, but if you take it early, the benefit is much less than if you take it late (# of spells = Int modifier that you can prepare sans spellbook). Overall, alternate spellbook rules seem vastly superior.

[Greenish]

Does anyone around here actually use Spell Mastery? It always struck me as a good feat concept, but very poor design, since you pretty much want it for early levels, when you are most likely to get spellbooks stolen/destroyed, but if you take it early, the benefit is much less than if you take it late (# of spells = Int modifier that you can prepare sans spellbook). Overall, alternate spellbook rules seem vastly superior.Prerequisite for Uncanny Forethought and Magelord.

[Phelix-Mu]

Prerequisite for Uncanny Forethought and Magelord.

Ah, I figured there was something out there that used it. I always disliked how WotC was all like "we want PrC to be open to a variety of methods of entry, so we don't say 'you must be ftr4 to enter,'" but then they go and make stuff that is pretty explicitly requiring certain class levels. I guess they set it as an ideal, and then things spiraled into the beauteous monster that is 3.5. Hooray!:smallwink:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Does anyone around here actually use Spell Mastery?

Killer Gnome says, Hi.

Prerequisite to both Arcane Thesis and Signature Spell.

[Phelix-Mu]

Killer Gnome says, Hi.

Prerequisite to both Arcane Thesis and Signature Spell.

OMG, I can't believe I forgot Arcane Thesis. Doh. Well there we have it, officially not as bad as I thought, as long as you don't just get Spell Mastery.

[Crasical]

Warforged are not actually immune to the non-lethal damage from forced march, so if they don't stop to rest every now and then, they can knock themselves unconscious.

Except for the ones that are. Improved Resiliancy, Races of Eberron, p. 119, is fun on a warforged follower/believer that you use as a messenger, since he can hustle/forced march forever without penalty, and isn't bothered by heat or cold until it reaches -20 or 140 degrees.


Of course even extraordinary postmen are probably outclassed by the time Sending or even Animal Messenger come online, but it's a fun thought all the same.

[Twilightwyrm]

Quick Draw, while not nearly as bad a dodge or others like it, falls into this category for me. If I can take it early, it will be very difficult for me to resist the temptation, unless I'm really playing a weapon independent class. This might be in part because for most of the time I've been playing, I haven't been aware that weapon crystals exist, and even now that they've appeared in a few games I've been in, they are generally rare and I prefer better crystals in my weapons. Further, especially at low levels, being able to quickly switch weapons in combat tends to manifest as more turns where you can actually do something, even if it is just firing with a 1d8+3 Comp. Longbow or simple 1d6 shortbow. Plus, I always liked the idea of my character being able to, if a situation gets tense, be the first to draw and strike, even if in practice initiative kind of screws this.
I get the feeling, if only to make it more thematically appropriate, having it either combined with improved initiative, or having it grant some sort of initiative bonus would not only make it more thematic, but would increase its viability as a feat.

[tyckspoon]

OMG, I can't believe I forgot Arcane Thesis. Doh. Well there we have it, officially not as bad as I thought, as long as you don't just get Spell Mastery.

Spell Mastery is not a pre-req for Arcane Thesis. It's got really light pre-reqs, actually, basically just a level-check in skill ranks.

Re: Quick Draw:
Might have some more attraction if it included quick sheathing as well. As is, it specifically applies only to taking out a weapon- if you want to put your weapon away properly, you are still spending the actions to do so. If you want to get rid of it quickly, you basically have to drop it. The only time I can really imagine taking it is for certain builds where it is basically mandatory for the build trick to function (dagger throwers, for example, require Quick Draw, because they don't get the free-drawing benefit of being considered ammunition and you don't want to spring for five to twenty Return Crystals.)

[Amphetryon]

I've taken Toughness on a Dwarven Character just to get to Roll With It.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I forgot toughness. Does Improved Toughness replace it? I have taken it to get into all kinds of PrCs.

[Amphetryon]

I forgot toughness. Does Improved Toughness replace it? I have taken it to get into all kinds of PrCs.

It does, typically (there may be niche exceptions, or my DMs merely may have been uniformly generous in this regard); my example was in a 3.0 game, though, where "Improved Toughness" wasn't really a thing.

[Person_Man]

Spirit Sense (Heroes of Horror pg 124) Feat. Lets you see an interact with spirits of the recently dead within various limitations. It's basically a poor man's version of the low level Speak with Dead spell. But hey, the whole "The Sixth Sense" thing is a potentially fun concept for a lot of non-caster builds.

“Sorry that we had to ambush you, but could you tell us your master’s weaknesses?”

“Are you kidding me, you just killed me.”

“Please? (My Diplomacy check is 52.)

“Fine, fine. He’s vulnerable to fire.”

[Story]

Where is Improved Toughness from?

Toughness is also required for Troll Blooded.

[Amphetryon]

Where is Improved Toughness from?

Toughness is also required for Troll Blooded.

Complete Warrior, Libris Mortis, Monster Manual III, Monster Manual IV, and Monster Manual V.

WotC was apparently really sorry about pretending Toughness was a viable option for Fighter-types.

[Palanan]

In the same vein, I really like Dauntless on very low-level characters, either for a one-shot or on NPCs.

I've used the same feat on warforged NPCs; I renamed it "Ford Tough."

:smalltongue:

[ArcturusV]

I'd say the Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness Feats in a similar vein:

The "Thrall to a Demon" and "Disciple of Darkness", "Knight of the Stars", etc feats. Required for some PrCs that are otherwise kinda neat. But a +1 "Luck" bonus on a single roll which is done in a Good/Evil deed per day is probably the weakest one I can think of.

[Libertad]

Monkey Grip's a favorite in my groups, simply for aesthetic value (wield a big-ass sword, like Cloud from FF7!).

[tiercel]

I suppose an interesting subquestion to this might be not only

"what is the worst feat that you still might take, for any reason?"

but also

"what is the worst feat that you still might take for reasons OTHER than it being a prerequisite for a feat/PrC you actually want?"

[Gildedragon]

For me it is Vow of Non-Violence
I love the idea of enemy weapons shattering against my character.
It just feels so cool to me.

It is so much investment in feats to get it though...

Actually sacred vow might be the worst feat I've taken; though I do try to convince the DM to let me skip it for or replace it with the vow itself.

[Amnestic]

I personally think that the Spell Thematic feat is amusing.

I kinda wish Spell Thematics was baseline for all casters, but since it's not I'll generally go ahead and pay the tax - it's worth it :smallcool:

[Deophaun]

The "Thrall to a Demon" and "Disciple of Darkness", "Knight of the Stars", etc feats. Required for some PrCs that are otherwise kinda neat. But a +1 "Luck" bonus on a single roll which is done in a Good/Evil deed per day is probably the weakest one I can think of.
I've taken one of those not because of PrC requirements, but because you quickly wind up scraping the bottom of the barrel for Exalted bonus feats with VoP.

[shadow_archmagi]

For me it is Vow of Non-Violence
I love the idea of enemy weapons shattering against my character.
It just feels so cool to me.

It is so much investment in feats to get it though...

Actually sacred vow might be the worst feat I've taken; though I do try to convince the DM to let me skip it for or replace it with the vow itself.

I love when nonhuman characters pick up Sacred Vow at first level, and then have to adventure for a few levels until they pick up another feat.

"So what's your gimmick?"
"I have taken a sacred vow."
"Oh, what did you vow to do? Nonviolence? Poverty?"
"I haven't vowed to actually do anything. I've just... taken the vows."
"???"
"It's like a promise ring."

[Beelzebub1111]

Rite of Counsel. Eberron Campaign Setting. Once per month you can take a trip to the City of the Dead and ask your Great Great Great Grandpa for help.

[TaiLiu]

For me it is Vow of Non-Violence
I love the idea of enemy weapons shattering against my character.
It just feels so cool to me.

It is so much investment in feats to get it though...

Actually sacred vow might be the worst feat I've taken; though I do try to convince the DM to let me skip it for or replace it with the vow itself.

Vow of Peace does that, not Vow of Nonviolence.

[Gildedragon]

Oh yeah. I get those mixed up.

[ken-do-nim]

Combat expertise.

I have never wanted to use this in combat.

It works well with Defensive Throw, Karmic Strike, and Elusive Target (all from Complete Warrior). On its own it makes sense only if you need to keep something occupied while your allies are busy with something else.

[Gnome Alone]

Last Ye Olde Crappiest Feat thread, I found out about Dash from CW: untyped +5ft. speed if lightly armored. I know it is, how you say, sorta sucks, but I still kinda want to take it for my 14th level duskblade's next feat. Me a sucker for skirmishy tings.

[nedz]

Dash also features in the Miniatures Handbook as well as Song and Silence.
I think WotC really liked this one :smallamused:

[Gnome Alone]

Dash also features in the Miniatures Handbook as well as Song and Silence.
I think WotC really liked this one :smallamused:
WotC: Hey kid, got a feat open? Wanna be, like, slightly faster?
Me: Oh god, DO I?! Take my money!

[Story]

I'm pretty sure there are feats out there that increase your speed by more than that. Planar Touchstone, Bind Vestige, Shape Soulmeld ...

How many feats are there that are strictly worse than another feat? Dodge/Midnight Dodge is a pretty egregious example.

[dascarletm]

Combat expertise.

I have never wanted to use this in combat.

I'm currently working on a excel sheet that I use to maximize damage potential via power attack. What you see is a decrease in damage per round with higher AC opponents. If i expand the excel sheet to incorporate their DPS vs my DPS while using expertise and PA, I could use both once it's finished to fine-tune both dpr to gain the maximum difference.

It could be useful if maths. :smalltongue:

[ken-do-nim]

I'm currently working on a excel sheet that I use to maximize damage potential via power attack. What you see is a decrease in damage per round with higher AC opponents. If i expand the excel sheet to incorporate their DPS vs my DPS while using expertise and PA, I could use both once it's finished to fine-tune both dpr to gain the maximum difference.

It could be useful if maths. :smalltongue:

Heh, when I hang out on old-school forums, they often complain that you need a spreadsheet to play 3.5, and here you actually have one :)

[jywu98]

Iron Will.

Nevermind, Otyugh Hole solves that. :smallbiggrin:

[Yora]

I like the Athletic feat. Almost as good as Skill Focus (Climb) and you also get a bonus to Swim.

[dascarletm]

Heh, when I hang out on old-school forums, they often complain that you need a spreadsheet to play 3.5, and here you actually have one :)

only because I'm weird and think spreadsheets are fun....

[Toy Killer]

Not gonna lie, I thought about rolling Monk 20 when I saw the feat Versitile Unarmed Strike.

Not that it solved anything the monk suffers from, but for once, I didn't have to justify why my monk was switching fists and fighting styles around rather then just fluff-ness...

Then ToB came out...:smallcool:

[ShurikVch]

Willing Deformity
Prerequsite for all Deformity (...) feats.
But "as is"?
+3 bonus on Intimidate checks

[denthor]

I like quick draw mostly because it allows you to put a weapon away draw with the wrong hand and then still get an attack.

There is another feat from the song and silence book that alows you to make an suprise attack and the opponent is flat footed sneak attack bi

[navar100]

Anyone actually take Run?

[Yora]

Since Run is a full round action, I can't really see any point in it. If you want to move quickly, you do it to get to a point and do something there. If you want to charge an enemy 200 feet away and want to do it in two rounds instead of three, Run would make it possible.
But how often does that ever happen? Does that ever happen? There is no real point in running 150 feet in a round instead of 120 feet.

Quick draw is awesome to sneak attack someone in the suprise round.
Say you are having a conversation with a villain or guard and you decide "Enough talk!" If the enemy does not expect a fight, you get a suprise round in which you draw as a free action and sneak attack as your standard action. If you also win initiative, you even get to make a second sneak attack if he still lives or rush his buddy and sneak attack him as well. Two sneak attacks before the enemies draw their weapons. That's awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[ZamielVanWeber]

Quick Draw also makes it easier to use iaijutsu focus more easily.

[denthor]

Anyone actually take Run?


Twice with two different characters and others in my party have taken it as well.

[ArcturusV]

Run gets a lot more valuable the more your DM uses open wilderness and logical initial engagement ranges for it. It can be the difference between charging and taking only 4 turns of long range fire or taking 7. Or even the ability to force engagement at all (Or disengage if you wish).

It's pretty much useless though on typical dungeon crawls. Or most Urban campaigns.

[Telonius]

Versatile Performer. It really wouldn't do all that much mechanically - when's the last time you really needed to play the trombone as well as sing? - but it's just something that it seems like a Bard ought to have.

[Artillery]

For me it is Vow of Non-Violence
I love the idea of enemy weapons shattering against my character.
It just feels so cool to me.

It is so much investment in feats to get it though...

Actually sacred vow might be the worst feat I've taken; though I do try to convince the DM to let me skip it for or replace it with the vow itself.

Vow of Non-violence isn't to bad really. I have made a what equates to a Swordsage police officer. Vow of Non-violence wouldn't have changed anything I have done so far. But it would change my future maneuver picks.

+4 DCs for non-damaging(hp dmg, ability dmg, lvl drain) spells or other special abilities.

Vow of Peace is actually very good if you build it a certain way. Design a character who only counter-attacks. Karmic Strike and Robilar's gambit. When someone attacks you there weapon breaks and they get hit.

[nedz]

I like quick draw mostly because it allows you to put a weapon away draw with the wrong hand and then still get an attack.
I've used it occasionally; but you do end up dropping more weapons than enemies sometimes.

I used it on a TWF Ranger:

Start with your hands empty.
Round 1: QD a bow, loose some arrows, drop it and QD a Guisarme.
Trip them when they charge you — AoO with Combat Reflexes
Round 2: Drop the polearm, QD your two weapons and full attack

And similar tactics.

There is another feat from the song and silence book that alows you to make an suprise attack and the opponent is flat footed sneak attack bi
Flick of the Wrist, in CWar, RotW and Song and Silence.
You need a lot of light weapons, and it's quite limited. I've seen a Rogue who used it a lot.

[Toy Killer]

I've let rouges use quick draw to leave the knife in a body and flick of the wrist to pull it back out in combat, something of a dagger juggle with three different weapons.

[Twilightwyrm]

Anyone actually take Run?

I have considered it, but only for a Factorum, and only because I felt it was thematic considering he was based on the Doctor.

[Emperor Tippy]

Does anyone around here actually use Spell Mastery? It always struck me as a good feat concept, but very poor design, since you pretty much want it for early levels, when you are most likely to get spellbooks stolen/destroyed, but if you take it early, the benefit is much less than if you take it late (# of spells = Int modifier that you can prepare sans spellbook). Overall, alternate spellbook rules seem vastly superior.

Yes, but I re-spec my feats regularly to avoid that problem.

[Big Fau]

Does anyone around here actually use Spell Mastery? It always struck me as a good feat concept, but very poor design, since you pretty much want it for early levels, when you are most likely to get spellbooks stolen/destroyed, but if you take it early, the benefit is much less than if you take it late (# of spells = Int modifier that you can prepare sans spellbook). Overall, alternate spellbook rules seem vastly superior.

My DMs have always agreed with me that it should scale with your Int modifier, so my Wizards end up taking it for Uncanny Forethought anyway (and it works out nicely).

[Kuulvheysoon]

True Believer (CDiv) isn't too great. I've taken it as the pre-req for Pious Templar. Other than that... using it for Relics?

[Deathra13]

I've considered spell mastery for drawmij's instant summon just in case someone still gets past my defenses and takes my spellbook as well as for a couple other spells that its convenient to always have. But havent been able to find space for it in my plan.

[only1doug]

Eschew materials, its a great concept feat that you don't have to worry about the risks of losing your components and yet the components it replaces are practically free anyway (and there is no reason not to have multiple spell compnent pouches stashed away) and yet I take it anyway because it grants a +20 feat bonus to saves vs GM arguement on spell component useage.

[Vaz]

Diehard. It is like 10 free HP, but on the other hand, requires Endurance, and a First level spell recreates its effects.

[Regal Kain]

@Shining I'll see your Dodge for PrCs and raise you Endurance for Steadfast Determination.

I use Endurance on my Dwarves ^_^ mostly because then they can sleep in their mithral fullplate and not take penalties for it, also because my DM will almost always hit us at night with an ambush, and if we don't take off our armor, we take the penalties there in. ^_^

Feats I find myself never using? Self-Sufficient. Because after level 3-4 you never really need Heal (Or if you have access to MiC, and the Blessed Bandages for 10G) And Survival I find isn't often used in the campaigns I am in, we aren't in the wilderness that often, and tracking is so-so, that said. I'm sure there is a build somewher eon GITP or BGO that uses it.

[nedz]

Diehard. It is like 10 free HP, but on the other hand, requires Endurance, and a First level spell recreates its effects.

Well there are classes which get Endurance for free, which is about the only time I would "take" it, unless it was a feat tax for a PrC.


Horse Totem Barbarian
Ranger


Certain other classes can get it as a bonus feat, but there are usually better choices.

[Greenish]

I use Endurance on my Dwarves ^_^ mostly because then they can sleep in their mithral fullplate and not take penalties for it, also because my DM will almost always hit us at night with an ambush, and if we don't take off our armor, we take the penalties there in. ^_^Restful armour crystal is piddles compared to the overall cost of a mithral full plate. Just sayin'. Even Called property is relatively cheap. Both MIC.

That said, in addition to Diehard and Steadfast Determination, it's also prerequisite for Lasting Life (LM), which allows you to shrug off negative levels.

[Shining Wrath]

Monkey Grip's a favorite in my groups, simply for aesthetic value (wield a big-ass sword, like Cloud from FF7!).

Strictly inferior to Strong Arm bracers (MIC), which cost 6k. Wield size-large weapons at NO PENALTY.

[Shining Wrath]

Last Ye Olde Crappiest Feat thread, I found out about Dash from CW: untyped +5ft. speed if lightly armored. I know it is, how you say, sorta sucks, but I still kinda want to take it for my 14th level duskblade's next feat. Me a sucker for skirmishy tings.

The weak is strong with that one ... strictly inferior to Boots of Striding and Springing.

[Shining Wrath]

Eschew materials, its a great concept feat that you don't have to worry about the risks of losing your components and yet the components it replaces are practically free anyway (and there is no reason not to have multiple spell compnent pouches stashed away) and yet I take it anyway because it grants a +20 feat bonus to saves vs GM arguement on spell component useage.

I like Eschew Materials for Sorcerers because it just seems to fit the flavor. Sorcerers don't just DO magic, they ARE magic, and so minor materials are not needed. Same thing with bloodlines ... to me, every Sorc should get a minor bloodline for free as a class feature.

[Vaz]

I think there's an edit button somewhere.

[Pyro_Azer]

Unarmored/Ironwood Body. Want to play a warforged Bard/Wizard/Druid/Monk/etc..? You will have to take one of these.

[Amnestic]

Unarmored/Ironwood Body. Want to play a warforged Bard/Wizard/Druid/Monk/etc..? You will have to take one of these.

If you take the Dragonborn template, you effectively get Unarmoured Body for free, while retaining the Warforged immunities (due to your Living Construct subtype).

[Story]

Restful armour crystal is piddles compared to the overall cost of a mithral full plate. Just sayin'. Even Called property is relatively cheap. Both MIC.


You can also just buy immunity to fatigue for around 6k via the Heavy Legs graft.

Also, does the Heal skill even do anything? Seems like it's an NPC only thing.

[Amnestic]

Also, does the Heal skill even do anything? Seems like it's an NPC only thing.

Might save your healbot a spellslot or wand charge?

[Shining Wrath]

You can also just buy immunity to fatigue for around 6k via the Heavy Legs graft.

Also, does the Heal skill even do anything? Seems like it's an NPC only thing.

If the party healer goes down you can use Heal to stabilize them while someone digs a potion out of the HHH.

[Greenish]

Unarmored/Ironwood Body. Want to play a warforged Bard/Wizard/Druid/Monk/etc..? You will have to take one of these.Basic plating doesn't interfere with monk or druid, and only has tiny ASF that you can probably get rid of pretty soon with Twilight enhancement.

[Saidoro]

Wild Speech (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/wild-speech). Irrelevant in most games, but occasionally you'll find a game where the GM is really strict about out of character speech.

Strictly inferior to Strong Arm bracers (MIC), which cost 6k. Wield size-large weapons at NO PENALTY.

The weak is strong with that one ... strictly inferior to Boots of Striding and Springing.
Strictly inferior does not mean what you think it does, the term is only applicable if something is better in every possible way and the options you listed cost gold which means that they aren't. Granted, the gold is a far smaller cost for basically every build ever but that's not the same thing as being strictly inferior.

[Amnestic]

Wild Speech (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/wild-speech). Irrelevant in most games, but occasionally you'll find a game where the GM is really strict about out of character speech.


Irrelevant in all games which allow Magic Item Compendium. Pearl of Speech grants you the ability to speak in the language it's keyed to (such as Common) and costs the enormous sum of 600gp - easily affordable by the time Wild Shape comes online.

[erikun]

I happen to like Endurance and Eschew Materials, and tend to use them occasionally on characters. They both strike me as appropriate feats for a be-prepared character, and actually have come up several times in games that I play in.

"What do you mean I'm unarmored? Of course I was sleeping in my armor!"
"Look like a wizard? All I'm wearing is a monk's robe and a backpack!"

I wants to put Disguise Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#disguiseSpell) on a character someday, preferably on a Wizard/Bard/Ultimate Magus (itself an unoptimal choice). Yes, Invisible Spell and/or Silent Spell while invisible are more practical, but disguising spells while performing sounds like fun.

I've also wanted to try a character with Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Sugliin and Sugliin Mastery. Not because it's powerful, or because it's practical, but because it involved killing stuff by beating them to death with a giant stick covered with antlers (http://frostburn.pbworks.com/f/1188245700/weapons2.jpg).

[Greenish]

Strictly inferior does not mean what you think it does, the term is only applicable if something is better in every possible way and the options you listed cost gold which means that they aren't. Granted, the gold is a far smaller cost for basically every build ever but that's not the same thing as being strictly inferior.
How is smaller opportunity cost and better effect not "better in every possible way"?

[Shining Wrath]

How is smaller opportunity cost and better effect not "better in every possible way"?

If you consider gold more valuable than a feat slot. Might be true sometimes.
For a fighter.
In a very low-wealth game.

[only1doug]

I happen to like Endurance and Eschew Materials, and tend to use them occasionally on characters. They both strike me as appropriate feats for a be-prepared character, and actually have come up several times in games that I play in.

"What do you mean I'm unarmored? Of course I was sleeping in my armor!"


Endurance in this aspect can be replaced by a 500gp item, the restful armour crystal.

[erikun]

How is smaller opportunity cost and better effect not "better in every possible way"?
When you do not get the option to purchase any possible magic item upon desire? Also when the specific book the item is found in is banned/not allowed.


Endurance in this aspect can be replaced by a 500gp item, the restful armour crystal.
Case in point. I didn't know about a restful armor crystal, do not know where it is found, do not know what it requires and cannot guarantee that the DM will allow it.

[Saidoro]

How is smaller opportunity cost and better effect not "better in every possible way"?
The cost isn't smaller, it's different in a way that works out to be smaller in most games. Like I said, I fully admit that the options he listed are better, I just don't like the misuse of terms like strictly inferior.

[Greenish]

When you do not get the option to purchase any possible magic item upon desire? Also when the specific book the item is found in is banned/not allowed.What if you can't pick any possible feat upon desire? What if the book the feat is found in is banned/not allowed?

None of that has any bearing on the fact that said feats are strictly inferior to said items. Yes, if the superior version is not available, you could go with the inferior one, but that doesn't stop it from being strictly inferior.

[manyslayer]

Endurance in this aspect can be replaced by a 500gp item, the restful armour crystal.


Restful armour crystal is piddles compared to the overall cost of a mithral full plate.

Or, to use a different armor crystal, the Restful property from Dungeonscape does the same thing for the same price.

[Greenish]

The cost isn't smaller, it's different in a way that works out to be smaller in most games.Over 20 levels, you gain in excess of 760,000 gp, and 7 feats. Guess which has lower opportunity cost?


I just don't like the misuse of terms like strictly inferior.If that can't be said to be "strictly inferior", what can?

[only1doug]

Or, to use a different armor crystal, the Restful property from Dungeonscape does the same thing for the same price.

the crystal can always be taken off and a different crystal put on, after you have finished resting.


Case in point. I didn't know about a restful armor crystal, do not know where it is found, do not know what it requires and cannot guarantee that the DM will allow it.

Magic Item compendium, Armour must be MW quality.

[Raimun]

Do we include Pathfinder stuff?

If we do, I'd say Angelic Blood, for aasimars only.

+2 to saves against Evil stuff and to checks to stabilize. Undead next to you take 1 point of damage if you suffer bleed damage.

Sure, this could save you sometimes and it's pretty cool that your blood is acid for the undead. Still, no one would take this for these effects only.

But what is it a prerequisite for? Angel Wings. The Feat gives you wings and a real Flight Speed you can use the whole day, even inside an Antimagic field.

Wings for the price of two Pathfinder-Feats? Done.

[erikun]

What if you can't pick any possible feat upon desire? What if the book the feat is found in is banned/not allowed?

None of that has any bearing on the fact that said feats are strictly inferior to said items. Yes, if the superior version is not available, you could go with the inferior one, but that doesn't stop it from being strictly inferior.
There are no rules for preventing a character qualified for a feat from taking it, outside some variant training rules. By default, any character can take any available feat.

There are no rules for allowing a character to purchase a specific piece of equipment, and in fact mentioned more than once that magical equipment may not be available in a specific area - if purchasable at all. By default, a character does not necessarily have access to magical equipment.

What if you are playing a game without towns? Without purchasable magical equipment? A game where the characters do not get gold or items (or very little)? "Strictly inferior" means that there is not a situation where one option is a better choice than the other, not that there are few situations.


I concede that banning/not allowing is probably not relevant, although Endurance (a core feat) is pretty much guaranteed available in every game, whereas armor crystals (splat, item, different rules) may not be known or available in some games.

[Saidoro]

Over 20 levels, you gain in excess of 760,000 gp, and 7 feats. Guess which has lower opportunity cost?
Usually(by which I mean almost always) the gold, but not all games play by WBL and not all games have any sort of magic item market.

If that can't be said to be "strictly inferior", what can?
Exceedingly few things, in a well designed game nothing would ever be strictly inferior to anything else, but this being dnd we have things like Focused Lexicon which is strictly worse than any other feat ever written.
Mostly I just dislike a term with an exact and specific meaning being used so often as a synonym for "very bad". It weakens the term for when a situation comes up where it should be used.

[Oscredwin]

If that can't be said to be "strictly inferior", what can?

A feat that does the exact same thing plus some other benefit, for the exact same cost. For example, the same feat that also gives you a +2 to tumble.

[Greenish]

"Strictly inferior" means that there is not a situation where one option is a better choice than the other, not that there are few situations.But if "X may not be allowed while Y will" is an argument against calling Y strictly inferior, you can never say "Y is strictly inferior to X", no matter what X and Y are.


I concede that banning/not allowing is probably not relevant, although Endurance (a core feat) is pretty much guaranteed available in every game, whereas armor crystals (splat, item, different rules) may not be known or available in some games.No one has claimed that Endurance would be strictly inferior to the armour crystal. It obviously isn't, since Endurance is prerequisite for many good feats and provides benefits beyond being able to rest in heavy/medium armour.

The feats/items in question were Monkey Grip/Strongarm Bracers (both from widely used splats) and Dash/Boots of Striding and Springing (splat feat, core item). In case you're not familiar with them:


Monkey Grip allows you to use larger weapons with a penalty (also making it inferior to PA outside serious size shenanigans), while Strongarm Bracers allow you to use larger weapons without a penalty. The latter also allows you to wield (properly sized) two-handed weapons in one hand, unlike the former.
Dash increases your speed by 5' in light armour. Boots of Striding and Springing increase your speed by 10' regardless of armour, and also provide +5 bonus to Jump.

[ahenobarbi]

If that can't be said to be "strictly inferior", what can?

"X is strictly inferior to Y" is very strong statement so you can rarely apply it. For example Commoner is not strictly inferior to Wizard. Because it gets access to "Chicken Infested".

On the other hand Warrior is strictly inferior to Fighter because Fighter gets everything Warrior does and more (at least to best of my knowledge).

[Greenish]

On the other hand Warrior is strictly inferior to Fighter because Fighter gets everything Warrior does and more (at least to best of my knowledge).But some people play "NPC classes only" type games, so obviously warrior can't be strictly inferior, right?

[Story]

Irrelevant in all games which allow Magic Item Compendium. Pearl of Speech grants you the ability to speak in the language it's keyed to (such as Common) and costs the enormous sum of 600gp - easily affordable by the time Wild Shape comes online.

Or use the Amulet of Thought Projection, which I believe is Core.




There are no rules for allowing a character to purchase a specific piece of equipment, and in fact mentioned more than once that magical equipment may not be available in a specific area - if purchasable at all. By default, a character does not necessarily have access to magical equipment.


In D&D, WBL and Magic Mart is the default assumption, (see the DMG and MiC). Sure some DMs don't follow this, but you can't really argue on the basis of houserules.

[Raimun]

I always assume the magical "one stop magic item"-market is unavailable, unless proven otherwise.

Most GMs I've seen prefer random loot as the one and only source of magic items.

Crafting seems to be always an option but that takes time, money, materials and xp. For most people the only way to get the items they want is during the character creation and that works only if the starting level is high enough.

With that information, would I take Quick Draw or an item that does the same? I'd take neither. Most of the time you can keep the stuff you need on hand.

For example, one of the reasons I prefer two handed weapons (apart from damage) is that there are no scabbards/holsters for them. That means you keep the weapon on hand at all times and there's no need to draw. :smalltongue:

[limejuicepowder]

Arguing over the availability of certain things is the weaker argument for something being possibly better - strongarm bracers are NOT strictly better than monkey grip because strongarm bracers are an item and can be taken away. Same with dash vs boots of striding and springing. This to me is the end of the discussion; there are going to be times, plausible times, where it would be better to have the feat instead of relying on an item.

[Greenish]

Arguing over the availability of certain things is the weaker argument for something being possibly better - strongarm bracers are NOT strictly better than monkey grip because strongarm bracers are an item and can be taken away. Same with dash vs boots of striding and springing. This to me is the end of the discussion; there are going to be times, plausible times, where it would be better to have the feat instead of relying on an item.When are your bracers going to be taken away, but not your weapon? :smalltongue:

(Also even if you have Monkey Grip, you're better off pretending you don't and using properly sized weapons.)

[Raimun]

When are your bracers going to be taken away, but not your weapon? :smalltongue:


You never know. The game session might devolve into a Monty Python-sketch.

[ZamielVanWeber]

When are your bracers going to be taken away, but not your weapon? :smalltongue:

(Also even if you have Monkey Grip, you're better off pretending you don't and using properly sized weapons.)

AMF or anything else that suppresses items. Also you are best off getting powerful build (okay, not true, but funny to see).

[Turalisj]

There is an entirely useless 3rd party feat that I absolutely love in Feats and in Ultimate Feats, called Spell Effects, you get to decide the appearance of your spells, if the gm finds them unique enough he can increase the spellcraft dc to recognize the spell, but otherwise it literally has no rules function, its entirely flavor with a dm dependent rule, and yet I will always take it when its an option.

I once had Chickens as my character's spell thematic.

So you had a Wizard using Delayed Blast Flaming Chickens. :smallbiggrin:

[ahenobarbi]

But some people play "NPC classes only" type games, so obviously warrior can't be strictly inferior, right?

If you include "availability in each game" as characteristic of each class then you are correct, warrior is no longer strictly inferior to fighter (because it offers something fighter doesn't: availability in NPC-class-only game).

Which reminded me an important point. You can't really talk about "X being strictly inferior to Y" without first determining:
- scope of comparison (do we care what picture class gets?).
- method of comparison (is access to spell casting a good or a bad thing?).

As for your original statement: for most characters crystal has lower opportunity cost. However for some characters it doesn't. So the cost is sometimes higher. So the feat isn't strictly inferior.

If we limited comparison to standard WBL games at levels 6+ the crystal (probably) would be strictly better.

[ahenobarbi]

(Also even if you have Monkey Grip, you're better off pretending you don't and using properly sized weapons.)

Actually monkey Grip can be ok. If you are pumping weapon size with mighty wallop and didn't reach the cap yet.

[Greenish]

Okay, I guess you're right, Monkey Grip and Dash are only loosely inferior to the items.


On topic, many of the Heritage feats have prerequisite feats like Fey Heritage (+3 bonus on Will saves throws vs. enchantment) or Celestial Heritage (+n to saves vs. electricity and petrification, n being the number of celestial sorcerer feats you have), with ridiculously small and/or overspecific bonuses.

[Raimun]

I once had Chickens as my character's spell thematic.

So you had a Wizard using Delayed Blast Flaming Chickens. :smallbiggrin:

... Now I have the sudden urge to play a birdman blaster wizard who has that Feat. D&D meets Angry Birds.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Unarmored/Ironwood Body. Want to play a warforged Bard/Wizard/Druid/Monk/etc..? You will have to take one of these.


Basic plating doesn't interfere with monk or druid, and only has tiny ASF that you can probably get rid of pretty soon with Twilight enhancement.

Basic plating doesn't interfere with Bardic Casting either.


The feats/items in question were Monkey Grip/Strongarm Bracers (both from widely used splats) and Dash/Boots of Striding and Springing (splat feat, core item).

Dash isn't core - it's from Complete Warrior.

/nitpicking

[Greenish]

Dash isn't core - it's from Complete Warrior.That's why I said it's a splat feat. :smallamused:

[Empedocles]

Also rolling with Spell Thematics, although if I run an NPC I occasionally just throw this in as a bonus feat.

[Calimehter]

I took Stealthy on a sneaky-type character a while back.

Its just a +2/+2 feat . . . but I justified it by assuming that sneaking ahead of my non-stealthy teammates meant that I was really putting a lot on the line if I failed a roll (since I would be far away from support) so just about any price to pay for stackable bonuses was "worth it", especially at the lower levels the character spent most of his career at.

[gr8artist]

You never know. The game session might devolve into a Monty Python-sketch.
Doin' it!

Also, I think the proper wording for the argument would be "In a game where both X and Y are allowed, X is generally inferior to Y."

Anyone else play pathfinder? They came up with nifty fixes for most of the bad feats, and give you more feat slots to make things a lot less weird for prestige classes and the like.
Dodge: +1 dodge bonus to AC, always, as long as you're not flat footed.
Skill Focus: +3 untyped bonus, increases to +6 if you get 10 ranks or more.
(same thing happens with the +2/+2 skill feats. Their bonus doubles at 10 ranks)
Toughness: +1 HP per hit die, minimum +3.
Sadly, no boost to Iron Will/Lightning Reflexes/Great Fortitude.

Also, the new Power Attack is pretty good. -1/+2 at first level and every 4th BAB, +/- 50% for light or two handed weapons. That stuff adds up fast.

[Regal Kain]

When are your bracers going to be taken away, but not your weapon? :smalltongue:

(Also even if you have Monkey Grip, you're better off pretending you don't and using properly sized weapons.)

Party Member casts Deep Slumber on you, takes your bracers and leaves your weapon since they know you can no longer wield it properly? O_o
You're asleep at night, person walks in to steal your gear? Can't carry the ginormus freaking weapon you can?
You're taking a bath (You do remember your character needs to bathe right?) someone snags a small item and runs?

There are alot of ways you can have your bracers go missing but not your weapon, most of them revolve around things happening in-character and in RP, which is (IMO) why alot of feats, skills and spells exsist. So you can flush out a character the way you want it, how you want to flush it out. Not everyone plays D&D to go super-saiyain optimized 3 you know.

Also, Monkey Grip is vastly better then Strongarm Bracers in one case. A Goliath, since Strongarm Bracers as per MiC don't stack with Powerful Build. Monkey Grip does though. Woo

[Greenish]

(You do remember your character needs to bathe right?)Personal hygiene is for people who don't have +yes Fort saves.

[Regal Kain]

Personal hygiene is for people who don't have +yes Fort saves.

Your poor party members. :'(

[Greenish]

Your poor party members. :'(I told 'em not to get Scent. They should've listened.

[Story]

Negotiator is pretty good on a Diplomancer.

Also, bathing is unnecessary when you can cat Prestidigitation.

[Coidzor]

When you do not get the option to purchase any possible magic item upon desire? Also when the specific book the item is found in is banned/not allowed.

If your game bans the DMG, it's got issues, homeslice. :smallconfused:


Personal hygiene is for people who don't have +yes Fort saves.

Or access to Prestidigitation.


Party Member casts Deep Slumber on you, takes your bracers and leaves your weapon since they know you can no longer wield it properly? O_o

Well, that's when you question the parentage of your group for deliberately derailing the game into metagaming backstabbery. :smalltongue:


Which reminded me an important point. You can't really talk about "X being strictly inferior to Y" without first determining:
- scope of comparison (do we care what picture class gets?).
- method of comparison (is access to spell casting a good or a bad thing?).

Or you can have default assumptions of forum discussions in play. Which, given the context, they were.


The cost isn't smaller, it's different in a way that works out to be smaller in most games. Like I said, I fully admit that the options he listed are better, I just don't like the misuse of terms like strictly inferior.

Standard metric is that the cost actually is smaller, but that's given the default assumptions of rough pastiche of RAW and WBL.

[Sith_Happens]

I always assume the magical "one stop magic item"-market is unavailable, unless proven otherwise.

Well that goes without saying. I don't have my DMG open right now, but I'm pretty sure it's assumed to be, like, three stops.:smallwink::smalltongue:

[Regal Kain]

If your game bans the DMG, it's got issues, homeslice. :smallconfused:
DMG might not be banned, but the game may be run as such that there are no towns in existance that are over 5,000 people, as per DMG That means no town in exsistance has items worth over 3,000 GP in them. That makes it so that suddenly, magic items of any real value are all legendary and artifacts in a campaign, a +4 weapon of any kind? Yeah, you won't find that anywhere. But that's also considered a "low-magic" campaign in alot of ways.

Albeit that doesn't fix the "If the book this item is in is banned" though, as a DM? There may be times I don't allow my players to have access to the DMG at all. IT is the Dungeon Master's Guide, not the "Player's Magical Item Compendium"



Or access to Prestidigitation.
The ban of RPing everywhere, though it is a usefull spell, I'll give you that. :: Sobs::



Well, that's when you question the parentage of your group for deliberately derailing the game into metagaming backstabbery. :smalltongue:
That's one way to look at it, yeah. Another way is your party members IC have an int of over 10, and as such hav ea basic grasp on physics and weight, and understand that normally a being of your stature couldn't lift and wield something so unruly, so it must be one of your magical items that lets you do it. It doesn't have to be meta-gaming to have characters know things, they do have INT scores. ^_^

[prufock]

There is an entirely useless 3rd party feat that I absolutely love in Feats and in Ultimate Feats, called Spell Effects, you get to decide the appearance of your spells, if the gm finds them unique enough he can increase the spellcraft dc to recognize the spell, but otherwise it literally has no rules function, its entirely flavor with a dm dependent rule, and yet I will always take it when its an option.

I thought this was a basic capability of spellcasters - determining the minor display effects of their spells. Not with the possible bump in spellcraft DC, though. Isn't it in either the "Magic" or "Spells" chapter of the PHB?

[only1doug]

That's one way to look at it, yeah. Another way is your party members IC have an int of over 10, and as such hav ea basic grasp on physics and weight, and understand that normally a being of your stature couldn't lift and wield something so unruly, so it must be one of your magical items that lets you do it. It doesn't have to be meta-gaming to have characters know things, they do have INT scores. ^_^

But you could then look at said other player OOC and ask why they want to de-rail the game into PVP by taking your stuff. Additionally, if they want your PC's stuff its certainly easier to take them from his corpse as the corpse will be less likely to try to reclaim them.

[Regal Kain]

But you could then look at said other player OOC and ask why they want to de-rail the game into PVP by taking your stuff. Additionally, if they want your PC's stuff its certainly easier to take them from his corpse as the corpse will be less likely to try to reclaim them.

I guess it's a matter of opinion and players? Why does it have to devolve into PvP? When your character wakes up, the others say they have things missing as well. (Assuming the one who still it, also has a high bluff skill, which is probably a given, if they can sneak around.) to get your character to do something, you out of game know better, but you can't let that influence your character, otherwise you are meta-gaming and need to find a different table-top game to be playing.

The point was things are never cut and dry if you're running a proper D&D campaign, there can always be extenuating circumstances can't there? That's the whole point of playing D&D over any Video game RPG, you can build your own character to a level of customization not found in almost any game, you don't have to play the game based on what is coded, you write the story yourself, it's up to you how the world ends up.

Then again perhaps I play P&P for different reasons then others.

[Story]

Well that goes without saying. I don't have my DMG open right now, but I'm pretty sure it's assumed to be, like, three stops.:smallwink::smalltongue:

IIRC, it's assumed to take a couple hours of asking around town.

[Shining Wrath]

... Now I have the sudden urge to play a birdman blaster wizard who has that Feat. D&D meets Angry Birds.

Lightning bolts of yellow birds!

[Shining Wrath]

I guess it's a matter of opinion and players? Why does it have to devolve into PvP? When your character wakes up, the others say they have things missing as well. (Assuming the one who still it, also has a high bluff skill, which is probably a given, if they can sneak around.) to get your character to do something, you out of game know better, but you can't let that influence your character, otherwise you are meta-gaming and need to find a different table-top game to be playing.

The point was things are never cut and dry if you're running a proper D&D campaign, there can always be extenuating circumstances can't there? That's the whole point of playing D&D over any Video game RPG, you can build your own character to a level of customization not found in almost any game, you don't have to play the game based on what is coded, you write the story yourself, it's up to you how the world ends up.

Then again perhaps I play P&P for different reasons then others.

So play a Warforged and have the bracers *built into your body*. Makes the job of a pickpocket a little more difficult.

Now, a DM might fix the wagon of the sneak thief by having a ginormous monster crash through the walls of the inn ... and if the fighter doesn't get his bracers back RIGHT NOW TPK is almost certain. Does thief pull the bracers out of the HHH and confess, or die? Hmmmmmm

[only1doug]

I guess it's a matter of opinion and players?

If you play in a group where you choose feats on the assumption that another player will have his PC take your PC's stuff without first killing your PC then I guess I'm glad I don't share your opinion and players.


Why does it have to devolve into PvP?

An excellent Question but one you should direct to yourself. The event of one PC taking actions to the direct disadvantage of another PC (e.g. stealing their stuff) is PVP.



When your character wakes up, the others say they have things missing as well. (Assuming the one who still it, also has a high bluff skill, which is probably a given, if they can sneak around.)

And the plot that the GM had you interested in gets de-railed into a "find the thieves subplot" that may never get resolved (because your thief is better at being sneaky than the rest of the party are at catching them) or you end up with a game of blame the watchmen and all of your games devolve into accountancy with keeping track of multiple people on watch.


to get your character to do something, you out of game know better, but you can't let that influence your character, otherwise you are meta-gaming and need to find a different table-top game to be playing.

you know the item has gone missing, and you can act upon that, tracking to see who approached your camp (no-one? thats odd...), locate object to determine where the stuff is etc (in the rogues bags? huh...).

[Agincourt]

Dash looks like it is an untyped bonus so it should stack with pretty much everything. Boots of Striding and Springing give an enhancement bonus. Nearly every spell that increases land speed is an enhancement bonus so the boots will not stack with Haste, Expeditious Retreat, or Longstrider.

I'm not saying that I would necessarily take Dash, but if speed is a character's priority I can see why they would take it.

[Regal Kain]

If you play in a group where you choose feats on the assumption that another player will have his PC take your PC's stuff without first killing your PC then I guess I'm glad I don't share your opinion and players.

This is sort of why I was avoiding signing up for these forums, people here over-analyze, but forget the original context of a discussion. I take the feat on my dwarves, that's what I said. Admittedly I didn't expand on it, let me do so now, and re-iterate the point.

Dwarves to me, are generally hardy individuals, people who aren't likely to be caught off guard, whether in their Citadel, or on the road for whatever reason, Endurance not only lets them do things like more forced marches, it lets them sleep in their armor without worry of exhaustion, the other problems arose when a player said "Why bother taking the feat, just take X, or X, or X, or X, or X, or X, or X, or X" Albeit, not so many options but still. The point was that some things aren't available, others are. And I play to have fun and roleplay a character, not to min-max and optimize my strategies by taking the absolute shortest route to what I want, and not care about fluff in the least.



An excellent Question but one you should direct to yourself. The event of one PC taking actions to the direct disadvantage of another PC (e.g. stealing their stuff) is PVP.

I can't say anything to this, because you're right, by the exact wording that is PvP in itself. Technically the entire game is, because the DM is a player as well, since he's not a computer generating things but a player at the table, semantics, and overanalyzing the meaning of a word, my apologies for not being more specific.



And the plot that the GM had you interested in gets de-railed into a "find the thieves subplot" that may never get resolved (because your thief is better at being sneaky than the rest of the party are at catching them) or you end up with a game of blame the watchmen and all of your games devolve into accountancy with keeping track of multiple people on watch.
Maybe the player with the bracers didn't want to go along with the DM's plot? Lord knows I've had players, and have done that myself, my character has absolutely no care at all about the damn skeletons in the catacombs. The other players want to do it, eithier we split the party, or something else comes up to make the black sheep tag along, that might be PvP related motivation.




you know the item has gone missing, and you can act upon that, tracking to see who approached your camp (no-one? thats odd...), locate object to determine where the stuff is etc (in the rogues bags? huh...).

Sure you're right, because the guy is going to question his allies, the rogue player isn't going to be smart enough to fake tracks, the guy with strongarm bracers, who is wielding an otherwise unyielding weapon is going to immeditely think to cast Locate Object, and start looking at his allies (Who he obviously trusts with his life, why else would he sleep near them at all because that makes sense.

The point of it all was to provide another opinion and option as to "in what scenario you lose your bracers but not your weapon" my apologies that they don't seem realistic, or idealistic to you, in a game where dragons exsist and people can "throw" 200K+ Lbs in six seconds. Silly me.

[only1doug]

This is sort of why I was avoiding signing up for these forums, people here over-analyze, but forget the original context of a discussion. I take the feat on my dwarves, that's what I said. Admittedly I didn't expand on it, let me do so now, and re-iterate the point.


I didn't forget the original context, I merely addressed the portion of the answer that I found objectionable



I guess it's a matter of opinion and players?<snip>

This entire post could have been replaced with this line of text and would actually make a small amount of sense.



Maybe the player with the bracers didn't want to go along with the DM's plot? Lord knows I've had players, and have done that myself, my character has absolutely no care at all about the damn skeletons in the catacombs.

This could then be addressed OOC and resolved instead of wasting peoples gaming time on PVP.



Technically the entire game is, because the DM is a player as well, since he's not a computer generating things but a player at the table, semantics, and overanalyzing the meaning of a word, my apologies for not being more specific.

This may be technically correct but is a great example of overanalysing and semantics. When I was referring to PVP I meant PC vs PC and I'm not going to apologise for not being more specific.




The other players want to do it, eithier we split the party, or something else comes up to make the black sheep tag along, that might be PvP related motivation.

Yeah, I still don't want to play in a group where the players decide to steal each others stuff in the middle of the night.

If the PC's can't talk the reluctant PC into joining in then either the GM can give motivation or the reluctant PC can stay out and his player can watch the session from the sidelines. Sound unfair? Tough, its the players job to keep his character involved.

[Regal Kain]

For the sake of the thread, I won't keep going back tit for tat, as all we're doing is both stating opinion. And sadly, that's all it is. The opinions of two people who play the game in vastly different ways.

Terribly sorry things said we taken so out of context, or weren't explained better.

[Venger]

Rite of Counsel. Eberron Campaign Setting. Once per month you can take a trip to the City of the Dead and ask your Great Great Great Grandpa for help.

just for people trying to look it up, it's actually "Right of Counsel". I looked in eberron campaign setting for rite and found nothing. it's kind of interesting if someone gets slammed with mummy rot or something at low levels and if nothing else is pretty neat flavorwise.


I forgot toughness. Does Improved Toughness replace it? I have taken it to get into all kinds of PrCs.

in practice, yes. as a DM, I allow imp toughness to function as toughness for the purpose of prereqs, but RAW, imp toughness doesn't have an addendum about replacing toughness. which is pretty ridiculous, since the mechanic of replacing dodge with other dodges had been established already


You can also just buy immunity to fatigue for around 6k via the Heavy Legs graft.

Also, does the Heal skill even do anything? Seems like it's an NPC only thing.

heal can be used to treat diseases (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/heal.htm) which can be a real lifesaver if you get hit with the one or two diseases that are actually dangerous, like mummy rot. like all skill checks, it's easily trivialized with a casting of "guidance of the avatar" to let someone autopass it. a few of these in a row and you'll let your friends (or yourself) shake off just about any disease

far as it goes for me, I took the "Mentor:craftsman" feat from DMG2. my character is a time traveler from 1933 and is growing a mercantile empire selling modern technology throughout the D&D world. I figured that the feat that let you take on apprentices would allow me to pass on knowledge that doesn't yet exist. it's had little mechanical effect (bonuses to craft and profession rolls ftw) but I'm still pretty happy I took it.

[Deox]

heal can be used to treat diseases (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/heal.htm) which can be a real lifesaver if you get hit with the one or two diseases that are actually dangerous, like mummy rot. like all skill checks, it's easily trivialized with a casting of "guidance of the avatar" to let someone autopass it. a few of these in a row and you'll let your friends (or yourself) shake off just about any disease


I actually like Healing Lorecall for this (C. Adventurer spell). Having actual ranks lets your conjuration healing spells (hello cure minor) remove a whole bevy of bad effects (from daze to exhausted to nauseated and more).

Otherwise, Spell Thematics. To my group now, it's pretty much a required feat. Also, using it to make a curse of frog rain (Comet Fall into frogs).

[Yora]

How useful is Diehard? It sounds fun as an idea, but also rather pointless.

[Turalisj]

I've found it fairly useful, at least at low levels.

[Flame of Anor]

But some people play "NPC classes only" type games, so obviously warrior can't be strictly inferior, right?

No, that's wrong. A level 6 character is strictly inferior to that same character advanced to level 20, but people still play E6. Having 500 GP is strictly inferior to having 500,000 GP, but very few DMs will allow low-level characters to amass the latter amount. People play the warrior class because it is inferior--for the challenge. So you might say it's not necessarily inferior from a real-world-fun standpoint, but we've clearly been approaching the matter from a game-rules standpoint.

Just face it, Saidoro is right.

[The Viscount]

Spell Focus (Abjuration) is cruelly limited in its application to the point of near uselessness. You need both it and its big brother Greater Spell Focus if you want to enter Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, which is probably worth it anyway.

[Gurgeh]

Since we're reanimating the strongarm-bracers-vs-monkey-grip horse, I figure it's worth pointing out that "strictly inferior" is primarily wrong because the bracers have a cost beyond their GP value: they burn up an equipment slot. Generally less valuable than a feat, yes, but by no means always so.

Off the top of my head, you might want to use Great Reach Bracers so that you can be all "Go go gadget arms" with your huge weapon. Maybe you're using a class that can't wear armour and want to use Bracers of Armour to make up for the AC shortfall? Lots of situations right there.

That's not to say that Monkey Grip is a particularly good feat, but there are some fairly unremarkable circumstances where it's a better choice than Strong Arm Bracers.

As far as the topic goes, I'd probably say Residual Magic for me (assuming we're ignoring feats taken solely to serve as prerequisites). It's pretty weaksauce, but it does let you get a lot of extra mileage out of your wands - very handy for a mystic theurge who's overflowing with low-level spell slots but doesn't really have much higher up.

EDIT: Spell Focus (Abjuration) is also a prerequisite for Energy Abjuration, which is pretty handy for Gishes.

[nedz]

Well Spell Focus (Conjuration) is pretty useless for a Druid, unless you want Augment Summoning.

[Shining Wrath]

Since we're reanimating the strongarm-bracers-vs-monkey-grip horse, I figure it's worth pointing out that "strictly inferior" is primarily wrong because the bracers have a cost beyond their GP value: they burn up an equipment slot. Generally less valuable than a feat, yes, but by no means always so.

Off the top of my head, you might want to use Great Reach Bracers so that you can be all "Go go gadget arms" with your huge weapon. Maybe you're using a class that can't wear armour and want to use Bracers of Armour to make up for the AC shortfall? Lots of situations right there.

That's not to say that Monkey Grip is a particularly good feat, but there are some fairly unremarkable circumstances where it's a better choice than Strong Arm Bracers.

As far as the topic goes, I'd probably say Residual Magic for me (assuming we're ignoring feats taken solely to serve as prerequisites). It's pretty weaksauce, but it does let you get a lot of extra mileage out of your wands - very handy for a mystic theurge who's overflowing with low-level spell slots but doesn't really have much higher up.

EDIT: Spell Focus (Abjuration) is also a prerequisite for Energy Abjuration, which is pretty handy for Gishes.

Per MIC you can combine items in the same slot - it just costs 50% of the cheaper item as an extra cost.

[Story]

Well Spell Focus (Conjuration) is pretty useless for a Druid, unless you want Augment Summoning.

You can get Augment Summoning with a single feat via Planar Touchstone. Unfortunately, you'll have to wait until level 9.

[Dr.Epic]

Monkey grip. I don't care what anyone else says. I still love it.

[Venger]

Spell Focus (Abjuration) is cruelly limited in its application to the point of near uselessness. You need both it and its big brother Greater Spell Focus if you want to enter Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, which is probably worth it anyway.

don't forget about skill focus (spellcraft) you know. in case you, as a 9th level wizard have trouble making your spellcraft dcs.

[Story]

don't forget about skill focus (spellcraft) you know. in case you, as a 9th level wizard have trouble making your spellcraft dcs.

Incantrix might find it useful.

[Greenish]

How useful is Diehard?About the same as Toughness or Improved Toughness. Diehard allows you to take 9 points more damage before going down, but on the other hand you get killed instead of just knocked out if you run out. So, it's pretty good for going solo on low levels.


Flame of Anor:

No, that's wrong. A level 6 character is strictly inferior to that same character advanced to level 20, but people still play E6. Having 500 GP is strictly inferior to having 500,000 GP, but very few DMs will allow low-level characters to amass the latter amount. People play the warrior class because it is inferior--for the challenge. So you might say it's not necessarily inferior from a real-world-fun standpoint, but we've clearly been approaching the matter from a game-rules standpoint.You missed the point entirely, but that doesn't matter because…

Just face it, Saidoro is right.You were in such a hurry to beat the dead horse you also missed how I already did a page ago:

Okay, I guess you're right, Monkey Grip and Dash are only loosely inferior to the items.

Well done!

[John Campbell]

Anyone actually take Run?
My animal companion/mount has it. Prereq for Fleet of Foot, which lets us make mounted charges around a corner. Being able to move 400' per round and Take 1 on 30' horizontal Jump checks can be handy in and of themselves, too.


Also, bathing is unnecessary when you can cat Prestidigitation.
I tossed my Pathfinder party into an AD&D world. The conversion meant the wizard lost three experience levels, two spell levels, about sixty hit points, the ability to cast defensively or make concentration checks to retain a spell at all, the ability to use metamagic, her familiar became an incredibly fragile liability that has about a 25% chance of killing her if it dies, and it now takes her the better part of a day to re-prepare all of her spells if she novas. Her biggest complaint? She can't cast prestidigitation at will anymore, so she has to bathe now.

[Venger]

My animal companion/mount has it. Prereq for Fleet of Foot, which lets us make mounted charges around a corner. Being able to move 400' per round and Take 1 on 30' horizontal Jump checks can be handy in and of themselves, too.

for a second, I thought you were talking about the PGtF version, so I thought "wait, he rides an elf?" then I remembered there's a completely different feat with the same name in deities and demigods.

[Amnestic]

don't forget about skill focus (spellcraft) you know. in case you, as a 9th level wizard have trouble making your spellcraft dcs.

Assuming you went Abjurer for Iot7V, you can grab both Greater Spell Focus and Skill focus via Master Specialist, making the initial Spell Focus significantly less painful to take. Sure, it's still a feat tax, but a one feat tax is better than three, right? :smalltongue:

[thethird]

My animal companion/mount has it. Prereq for Fleet of Foot, which lets us make mounted charges around a corner. Being able to move 400' per round and Take 1 on 30' horizontal Jump checks can be handy in and of themselves, too.

My mount also has dash :smalltongue:

[John Campbell]

for a second, I thought you were talking about the PGtF version, so I thought "wait, he rides an elf?" then I remembered there's a completely different feat with the same name in deities and demigods.
Complete Warrior. Prereqs Run and a decent Dex. Lets you make one turn of up to 90 degrees while running or charging. I'm a mounted archer with a sideline in mounted charger, and my wolf is a charge-monster. That ability to charge around corners has been invaluable.


My mount also has dash :smalltongue:
I've been seriously considering it, just so my mounted single-move (which lets me take ranged full attacks without penalty) would be faster than a charging barbarian. I'm pretty sure I've got better things to do with the slot, though. My animal companion doesn't get crazy bonus feats like I do.

As for the original question... well, this character has Endurance, because I'm a Ranger and couldn't figure out a way to trade it for something useful.

I voluntarily took Trick Riding, which means that I don't have to make rolls on Ride checks that it's mathematically impossible for me to fail anyway, removes a penalty that rarely applies and still wouldn't make it possible for me to fail Ride checks in any case, and gives me two uses of Mounted Combat per round (I've never had call to use the second one). Completely worthless, in other words. But it's a prereq for Mounted Skirmisher, which is awesome.

If I play this character to 20, I'll have Far Shot, which, considering the tiny proportion of fights that take place outside my 110' first range increment (especially given that my mount single-moves 80' and runs 400'), is pretty much useless. I'm only taking it because I literally ran entirely out of other things to use the Ranger bonus feats for.