Tier limits of mundane characters?

[Talakeal]

Is it possible to have a high tier character without supernatural abilities? How about class features in general?

Say, for example, we had the following class:

D12 hd, good bab bonus, all good saves, 8x skill points, access to every skill, and a bonus feat of their choosing each level.
The class might receive a few small mundane class features such as bonus movement, evasion, or sneak attack?

This is clearly better than the fighter, and about as good as a realistic non magical hero could be, but would it even be tier 3?

How about if we give it bardic lore and the 2e fighters improved leadership?


Furthermore, lets bring in an unbalanced nonsense melee character. Say, one that rolls d100 for hit dice, gets 25x skill points per level, adds double their class level to damage and saving throws, and as a class feature gets the ability to take a number of extra standard actions each turn equal to class level. He'll, lets even give him unlimited use iron heart surge and the ability to destroy force effects and ongoing magical spells with his attacks.

Could such a character get past tier 3? would tier 1 or 2 be possible even if we jacked up all the numbers to near infinite levels?

Also, on a side question, is a tier 1 character still tier 1 if the DM doesn't allow broken spells or cheesy exploits like rope trick, simulacrum, shape change, genesis, astral projection, etc?

[Fouredged Sword]

The above blank character is tier three roughly. Good at melee and fighting, with strong secondary abilities through skills and social ability. Unable to break the game without rule abuse for skills prevents this class from being tier 2.

Solid class actually, would play in a game. It would preform solidly with some magic backup from a god wizard and cleric. I would give it trapfinding at 6th level with planer touchstone and call it an adventurer.

Give it NI skill with no cap and you get tier 2 for some skills due to the ability to break the game. Tier one is more about the ability to adapt, and arguably tier 1 could be obtained by having all skills all the time with NI Hp, BAB, ect. Not tier one as it is normally seen though.

[lunar2]

1. the optimal HD character is high T5 or low T4. the bonus feat every level puts him solidly in T4. if he could ignore prereqs for those bonus feats, that would get him to T3.

2. the uber action economy abusing super mundane is T2. unlimited power, but no versatility.

3. T1 casters without cheese are still T1. a cleric still fights better than a fighter and finds traps better than a rogue, at the same time, while still getting a bunch of spells to cast on the side.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Ya, can do most things ToB character can through maneuvers through stupid high numbers; tier 3.

The silly that's also an super versatile skill monkey with a few special things; high tier 3.

[Twilightwyrm]

3. T1 casters without cheese are still T1. a cleric still fights better than a fighter and finds traps better than a rogue, at the same time, while still getting a bunch of spells to cast on the side.

Fighting better than a fighter I might give you, but trapfinding better than a rogue? Yeah, no. Sure, you can unequivocally find and disable any individual trap better than a rogue, provided you were expecting a trap there, but on a consistent basis? With 8 skill points per level, and a generally decent Int score, finding and disabling traps can pretty much be an afterthought for a rogue. Unless you are going to Spontaneously caste from the Trickery domain, by contrast, you need to, in advance, allocate prepared spell slots to this task, and in a situation where traps are involved, they may simply be wasted (if there are too few, or no traps) or not enough (if there are more than what you prepared for). Granted at higher levels this can become less of an issue (many more spell slots being the main reason), but by the same level the rogue (or any other skill-monkey trap-finder like the Factorum (actually, especially the Factorum) can be doing the same thing with no preparation, as necessary. So yeah, maybe if your party doesn't have anyone else capable of doing so the Cleric can make a good stand-in. Otherwise, it's just a wasteful attempt at one-upsmanship.

[Answerer]

A Cleric 9 qualifies for the Summon Elemental reserve feat, at which point he becomes better than a Rogue. Even before that, the Kobold Domain gives him Disable Device, Search, and Trapfinding, the only things the Rogue particularly had going for him in this arena. The myriad spells that offer huge boosts to skill checks are also relevant here.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

D12 hd, good bab bonus, all good saves, 8x skill points, access to every skill, and a bonus feat of their choosing each level.
The class might receive a few small mundane class features such as bonus movement, evasion, or sneak attack?

An argument could be made for a very low Tier-3, but I'd put it at Tier 4, largely due to its lack of abilities that can actually circumvent encounters. It's good when skills solve things and decent when combat is needed, but it really can't adapt to crazy situations, nor tackle anything that's not going to fight it on its own level. It's rarely going to be rendered completely inefficient (at least if the feats and skills are well chosen), but it's very easy to gimp by picking poorly, and it will never really get a chance to truly shine, as it doesn't excel in anything.


Furthermore, lets bring in an unbalanced nonsense melee character. Say, one that rolls d100 for hit dice, gets 25x skill points per level, adds double their class level to damage and saving throws, and as a class feature gets the ability to take a number of extra standard actions each turn equal to class level. He'll, lets even give him unlimited use iron heart surge and the ability to destroy force effects and ongoing magical spells with his attacks.

Utterly broken low Tier 3 or high Tier 4. Doesn't really have many more options than the one mentioned above: he just has wider skills, can take the same options more often, and can bypass spells and remove effects.

Options didn't really increase, nor did non-numerical power, so he doesn't really move up a Tier at all: he just becomes overpowered. You can make overpowered builds and characters at almost any Tier: Tiers measure power, but indirectly. What they measure most is options and variety, as well as the ability to have the correct tool to solve any given problem. Your example here is very very overpowered at the few things he does...but is still extremely limited to those few things. No tier increase.


Also, on a side question, is a tier 1 character still tier 1 if the DM doesn't allow broken spells or cheesy exploits like rope trick, simulacrum, shape change, genesis, astral projection, etc?

They lose raw power, but they don't drop a Tier. Again, the Tier list is a measure primarily of the ability to circumvent any given situation, not a measure of raw power. Without these exploits a Wizard can still brush aside most encounters or bypass them completely, so he remains Tier 1. He can also adapt himself to specifically tailor his abilities to fit whatever challenges he'll face, and he can know them ahead of time via Divination spells. That's a level of flexibility and power the lower Tier classes can never hope to have.

[lunar2]

Fighting better than a fighter I might give you, but trapfinding better than a rogue? Yeah, no. Sure, you can unequivocally find and disable any individual trap better than a rogue, provided you were expecting a trap there, but on a consistent basis? With 8 skill points per level, and a generally decent Int score, finding and disabling traps can pretty much be an afterthought for a rogue. Unless you are going to Spontaneously caste from the Trickery domain, by contrast, you need to, in advance, allocate prepared spell slots to this task, and in a situation where traps are involved, they may simply be wasted (if there are too few, or no traps) or not enough (if there are more than what you prepared for). Granted at higher levels this can become less of an issue (many more spell slots being the main reason), but by the same level the rogue (or any other skill-monkey trap-finder like the Factorum (actually, especially the Factorum) can be doing the same thing with no preparation, as necessary. So yeah, maybe if your party doesn't have anyone else capable of doing so the Cleric can make a good stand-in. Otherwise, it's just a wasteful attempt at one-upsmanship.

you know what the cleric's answer to the rogue is? cloistered cleric with kobold and magic domain.

between the cleric's own spell list, and using magic items as a wizard of 1/2 his level, he does as well as a rogue's umd.

kobold domain gives him search and disable device as class skills, and the trapfinding class feature.

cloistered clerics get 6+int skill points per level.

so, i repeat.

a cleric can fight better than a fighter (with spell support), be a better rogue than a rogue (without much spell support), and do other stuff with his spells. all at the same time.

[Pickford]

Is it possible to have a high tier character without supernatural abilities? How about class features in general?

Say, for example, we had the following class:

D12 hd, good bab bonus, all good saves, 8x skill points, access to every skill, and a bonus feat of their choosing each level.
The class might receive a few small mundane class features such as bonus movement, evasion, or sneak attack?

This is clearly better than the fighter, and about as good as a realistic non magical hero could be, but would it even be tier 3?

How about if we give it bardic lore and the 2e fighters improved leadership?


Furthermore, lets bring in an unbalanced nonsense melee character. Say, one that rolls d100 for hit dice, gets 25x skill points per level, adds double their class level to damage and saving throws, and as a class feature gets the ability to take a number of extra standard actions each turn equal to class level. He'll, lets even give him unlimited use iron heart surge and the ability to destroy force effects and ongoing magical spells with his attacks.

Could such a character get past tier 3? would tier 1 or 2 be possible even if we jacked up all the numbers to near infinite levels?

Also, on a side question, is a tier 1 character still tier 1 if the DM doesn't allow broken spells or cheesy exploits like rope trick, simulacrum, shape change, genesis, astral projection, etc?

I would argue you're undervaluing the ability of magic items to level the playing field and shore up basically any weakness. Wizards are only as good as their planning for the day, the value of the martial classes is that they are always at peak efficiency, even several fights down the road.

In that respect, the limitations on martial classes are determined by the quality of loot they find and their ability to purchase better gear at will.

[Phelix-Mu]

Back on track, can a mundane character make tier 2? Tier 1 seems a bit too much to hope for, and not really useful, since that is some mean company, and the world is made no better by giving the god wizards more peers.

So, tier 2...I bet it could be done. No supernatural is a pretty high bar, especially if we extend it to no feats that grant supernatural stuff or SLAs. But I think if you gestalted all the mundane classes together and gave them some Factotum-type synergy, and then finally a maneuver progression (excluding Su maneuvers, ofc) comparable to swordsage, but with the recharge mechanic similar to warblade, and access to all disciplines, then I think we might be on to something.

However, the key ability that would make mundanes equal to tier 2 spellcasters would have to be some kind of super flexibility (in addition to all of the best of all of the above mundane stuff). I'm going to have to say that the mundane Project X class would have to have some kind of floating feat(s) like Chameleon, that could be reconfigured every day. It would have to Ex, but there is no reason it shouldn't be. Maybe make the number of floating feats equal to character level +1 or something similar.

Now we can talk meaningfully about comparing spellcaster toolbox with mundane toolbox (though spellcaster is still strictly better, when you add it to everything else, we might be approaching sorcerer).

I dunno, maybe I'm totally off base. I've only known about tiers for a couple of months. What say you, playground?

[hamishspence]

I'm going to have to say that the mundane Project X class would have to have some kind of floating feat(s) like Chameleon, that could be reconfigured every day. It would have to Ex, but there is no reason it shouldn't be.

Warblades are allowed to reconfigure weapon feats they have already taken, to be for a different weapon.

But that's a bit more limited.

[Phelix-Mu]

Warblades are allowed to reconfigure weapon feats they have already taken, to be for a different weapon.

But that's a bit more limited.

So what I envision would be something like:

Project X

HD: d12

Skill List: All

Skill Pts/level: 8+Int Mod

Base Attack: Full

Good Saves: All

Bonus Feats: 1 Bonus Feat every level (do we want these all to be without pre-reqs? need we say "non-eqic?")

Class Features: Trapfinding, Fast Movement (as Barbarian, then scales as monk, but non-enhancement), Imp Uncanny Dodge, Imp Evasion, Mettle, Mundane Divine Grace (keyed to any single stat), Focused Enemy (a rehash of Favored Enemy, but also floating, so can change day-to-day...select any x skills to get the bonus with), Bardic Lore, Maneuvers (as many as swordsage, but with warblade-esque recharge mechanic, and from any discipline), Stances, Factotum stuff, skill synergy (a la Brains over Brawn, but allow it to be any mental stat to all physical stat-based checks), Rage-ish (reflavor to taste, basically a situational bonus to stats with a mechanic like rage),

And finally, character level + 1 feats from feats known are floating feats that can be reassigned each day.

So, how is that for a start? I can improv some more if necessary, but I was trying to stick fairly closely with existing mundane stuff.

[tyckspoon]

So, how is that for a start? I can improv some more if necessary, but I was trying to stick fairly closely with existing mundane stuff.

Reasonable opinions may differ, but my personal guideline is that if an individual feature wasn't enough to make it to the spellcasting tiers already, gluing them together probably doesn't either. As Djinn said earlier you can still get an overpowered character that way, but that's not necessarily the same as high-tier (notably, IMO, what you have written still doesn't provide the 'oh, is that what your problem is? Standard Action Solution!' factor that I feel hallmarks Tier 1 and 2.. with the difference being Tier 2 going "I know what your Standard Action Solution is, but I can't do it." while a Tier 1 says "come back tomorrow and I can fix that for you.")

[Phelix-Mu]

Reasonable opinions may differ, but my personal guideline is that if an individual feature wasn't enough to make it to the spellcasting tiers already, gluing them together probably doesn't either. As Djinn said earlier you can still get an overpowered character that way, but that's not necessarily the same as high-tier (notably, IMO, what you have written still doesn't provide the 'oh, is that what your problem is? Standard Action Solution!' factor that I feel hallmarks Tier 1 and 2.. with the difference being Tier 2 going "I know what your Standard Action Solution is, but I can't do it." while a Tier 1 says "come back tomorrow and I can fix that for you.")

Hmm, well, I think it is kind of harsh to say, if I am interpreting you correctly, that Tier 1 and 2 are both open only to spellcasters. Because a standard action solution of the type that you speak of that is not a spell would have to basically replicate all aspects of spellcasting, minus the magical part (making it, btw, strictly better than magic, since non-magical "solution-casters" wouldn't have to worry about dispel or AMF). Is there really no middle ground?

Basically, does magic underpin every "strong" class concept? If magic has to have a featured or supporting role to even break out of tier 3, then that says something profound about the game (though certainly not an original sentiment).

[Answerer]

Yes, tyckspoon is completely correct, and yes, it's hard to imagine how mundane characters would ever have that kind of "standard action solution" available to them, no matter the situation. I cannot even imagine a Tier 2 or Tier 1 mundane class.

[Talakeal]

Yes, tyckspoon is completely correct, and yes, it's hard to imagine how mundane characters would ever have that kind of "standard action solution" available to them, no matter the situation. I cannot even imagine a Tier 2 or Tier 1 mundane class.

The discussion so far raises two major points in my mind.

First, should tier 1-2 classes and tier 3-5 classes even exist in the same game?

Second, is tier really that useful a metric? If being incredibly over powered doesnt boost your tier, is it really that big a deal? I know I personally would rather DM for a group with a standard wizard than a character who can simply 1 shot every monster and shrug off every hazard without a second thought.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yes, tyckspoon is completely correct, and yes, it's hard to imagine how mundane characters would ever have that kind of "standard action solution" available to them, no matter the situation. I cannot even imagine a Tier 2 or Tier 1 mundane class.

How sad. I rather like the idea of non-magic magic. And, for the record, they also seemed to like it over there at WotC, as numerous supplements will testify.

[Gavinfoxx]

Isn't Warblade Tier 3 already??

[Phelix-Mu]

The discussion so far raises two major points in my mind.

First, should tier 1-2 classes and tier 3-5 classes even exist in the same game?

Second, is tier really that useful a metric? If being incredibly over powered doesnt boost your tier, is it really that big a deal? I know I personally would rather DM for a group with a standard wizard than a character who can simply 1 shot every monster and shrug off every hazard without a second thought.

Another question is, if magic is needed to enter the top two tiers, then how much is the minimum amount? i.e., how much less than full casting can we staple to a somewhat trimmed down Project X and manage the versatility that seems to define the highest tiers?

And, on a personal note, I think it's not necessarily good to measure versatility in a manner of "output x/round." Faster is not strictly better, even with magic (though it is probably...*sigh*....optimal).

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Reasonable opinions may differ, but my personal guideline is that if an individual feature wasn't enough to make it to the spellcasting tiers already, gluing them together probably doesn't either. As Djinn said earlier you can still get an overpowered character that way, but that's not necessarily the same as high-tier.

Exactly. This suggested thing blows all Tier 3 classes out of the water, but a Tier 1 or Tier 2 class can still step all over it with a bit of planning.


Hmm, well, I think it is kind of harsh to say, if I am interpreting you correctly, that Tier 1 and 2 are both open only to spellcasters. Is there really no middle ground?

Effectively, no. That's because no subsystem other than Arcane/Divine/Psionic powers provides the amount of flexibility that those systems provide. You'd have to design something with comparable power and flexibility to be able to compete at the same level those systems can reach.


Basically, does magic underpin every "strong" class concept? If magic has to have a featured or supporting role to even break out of tier 3, then that says something profound about the game (though certainly not an original sentiment).

Magic underpins every Tier 1 or Tier 2 class, and a powerful subsystem driving the class underpins almost every Tier 1, 2, or 3 class in existence. Without magic, vestiges, psionics, maneuvers, or so forth, most classes don't have the options necessary to break past Tier 4.


Yes, tyckspoon is completely correct, and yes, it's hard to imagine how mundane characters would ever have that kind of "standard action solution" available to them, no matter the situation. I cannot even imagine a Tier 2 or Tier 1 mundane class.

Exactly. I've never, in all my years of homebrewing and seeing homebrew, seen something I'd say is 100% a Tier 2 mundane class, let alone a Tier 1.


First, should tier 1-2 classes and tier 3-5 classes even exist in the same game?

Since Tiers aren't a direct measure of power, they can exist in the same game. It's possibly to play a Wizard or a Cleric in a game with a Fighter: remember, Tiers judge the raw power and flexibility of a class when played to the optimal level, assuming equal player skill. A poor Wizard player or one who is intentionally making some sub-optimal choices won't show up the rest of the party anywhere near as much as a highly optimized spell selection will. It takes some work to make them all fit together sometimes, but it is possible.

Usually a Tier gap of 3+ begins to get problematic though: if I'm in a game with an Artificer, a Wizard, and a Druid, I'd probably recommend the guy wanting to play a Fighter picks a Warblade instead, the Paladin player grabs a Crusader, and the Rogue player might receive a buff or two. Still, it's possible to run a Fighter/Rogue/Wizard/Druid game just fine if the players are up for it.


Second, is tier really that useful a metric? If being incredibly over powered doesnt boost your tier, is it really that big a deal? I know I personally would rather DM for a group with a standard wizard than a character who can simply 1 shot every monster and shrug off every hazard without a second thought.

Hence why being overpowered and being higher Tier are NOT equivalent. Tier is a measure of flexibility and options first, potential power second. A Wizard, played well, can bring game-breaking power to ANY problem he encounters. An optimized Fighter may be able to easily one-shot the Tarrasque, but if he can't hit an enemy he's useless. Hell, he might be able to one-shot ANYTHING he can hit instantly, but, unlike the Wizard, the Fighter doesn't have the solution to intrigue puzzles, social situations, mystery solving, invisible flying enemies, things immune to physical damage, and many other obstacles that can crop up in D&D. Raw power does not equate to a high Tier class, although it's SOMEWHAT important. It's both power and the ability to bring that power to bear in any given situation, and have it be effective.

[Carth]

To make a mundane character T2, you' need to start homebrewing heaps more ToB maneuvers and make mundanes use a ToB maneuver progression, essentially creating spells that are not spells.

[Andion Isurand]

I made a PrC a couple months ago based around some of what the Knight class does, that might be worth a looking at with regards to giving mundanes better base scores.

http://magerune.blogspot.com/2012/11/defiant-defender-prc.html

[Answerer]

To make a mundane character T2, you' need to start homebrewing heaps more ToB maneuvers and make mundanes use a ToB maneuver progression, essentially creating spells that are not spells.
None of the maneuvers in Tome of Battle are standard action solutions, particularly when the problem is not combat.

[Carth]

None of the maneuvers in Tome of Battle are standard action solutions, particularly when the problem is not combat.

Yes. Hence why you'd need to homebrew heaps more.

[The Trickster]

Iirc, T2 class have "game breaking" potential, but lacking the versatility of a T1 (or even a T3 class, for that matter). So we need to find a way to give our guy the power of spells without actual spells. Is giving him/her lots of class abilites really "game breaking," or just really, really strong at a lot of things (which is a high T3 class) ?

[Phelix-Mu]

...snip[/i]

Well said. That "I haven't seen in all my years of homebrewing and seeing homebrew..." sounded a bit like a challenge to mine ears.:smallbiggrin:

So, a small nitpick. Wizard has excellent versatility day-to-day, but if you pick an instant in time, that wizard stands to be markedly less impressive. Paraphrasing Pickford (at my own peril), a mundane can often be at peak performance at any arbitrary point in the day, even during a busy day or after a nasty, unexpected surprise.

I understand the tiers are an abstraction used to weigh potential effectiveness, but I think that players often rate the versatility of magic higher just because it is easier and faster. Creative problem solving can be done with various resources, and while ill-supported by the rules, so are the applications that many spells are put to. Other methods will take longer and more creativity (and thus almost strictly less optimal), but I'm not sure we can discount the non-magical world just since it can't get it done in under six seconds.

In short, while I find spellcasters to be a fun "how many variables can you account for at the same time" exercise intellectually speaking, I find mundanes, or non-dedicated spellcasters, to be much more constraining, and thus a superior intellectual challenge. Sad that I can't have both great versatility without the win buttons....:smallfrown:

But, I find I'm agreeing with y'all on the top tiers belonging to dedicated casters.

[Carth]

So, a small nitpick. Wizard has excellent versatility day-to-day, but if you pick an instant in time

Eh, wizards can have any spell they know ready in 15 minutes if they left a slot open. Also, uncanny forethought, alacritous cogitation, spontaneous divination, and probably other things I'm forgetting will come into play too. I'm not sure most T1 divine casters can do that (possibly archivists only?), but then again clerics, druids, and so forth just know all their spells automatically and don't have to deal with tracking down copies and scribing them into a book, so they've got that going for them as a counterbalance.

[tyckspoon]

None of the maneuvers in Tome of Battle are standard action solutions, particularly when the problem is not combat.

Iron Heart Surge is (or would be, if it weren't one of the top five most poorly constructed rules effects in the game), as indicated by the 'I Iron Heart Surge (the Sun/gravity/being dead)' joke; it's about the most spell-like 'mundane' ability I know of that doesn't have people complaining that it should be a Supernatural or just doesn't belong on a mundane class..

and that's the problem, really. I can imagine a mundane Tier 2 class. It just doesn't look like anything from D&D- it looks a lot like Exalted. As long as 'magic' and 'mundane' are held to be two distinct categories with disparate capability by the world setting and the rules, any attempt to make 'mundane' be as capable as 'magic' will almost invariably be rejected as Not D&D, or Not MY D&D, or something similar.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Well said. That "I haven't seen in all my years of homebrewing and seeing homebrew..." sounded a bit like a challenge to mine ears.:smallbiggrin:

It sort of is. Go for it.


So, a small nitpick. Wizard has excellent versatility day-to-day, but if you pick an instant in time, that wizard stands to be markedly less impressive. Paraphrasing Pickford (at my own peril), a mundane can often be at peak performance at any arbitrary point in the day, even during a busy day or after a nasty, unexpected surprise.

A poorly played Wizard, yes. But a well-played one will have more resources than a Fighter, since he won't take damage (and thus won't run out of hit points), has an answer to every fight (and thus won't be rendered useless and unable to assist in a given situation), can prepare for anything in advance via proper use of Divination magic, and has a million ways to end combat, retreat safely to a place his opponent can't touch and, via things like different time flows on other planes, immediately teleport back into combat after 8 hours on a fast-time plane where he refreshed and reselected his spells for the fight at hand.

That's the tier gap right there. A Fighter functions at full capacity until his hit points wear away...but his full capacity is only a fraction of what the Wizard has, and a Wizard is capable of using his strengths to overcome all his own weaknesses.


Eh, wizards can have any spell they know ready in 15 minutes if they left a slot open. Also, uncanny forethought, alacritous cogitation, spontaneous divination, and probably other things I'm forgetting will come into play too. I'm not sure most T1 divine casters can do that (possibly archivists only?), but then again clerics, druids, and so forth just know all their spells automatically and don't have to deal with tracking down copies and scribing them into a book, so they've got that going for them as a counterbalance.

In short, this. :smallbiggrin:

[The Trickster]

Eh, wizards can have any spell they know ready in 15 minutes if they left a slot open. Also, uncanny forethought, alacritous cogitation, spontaneous divination, and probably other things I'm forgetting will come into play too. I'm not sure most T1 divine casters can do that (possibly archivists only?), but then again clerics, druids, and so forth just know all their spells automatically and don't have to deal with tracking down copies and scribing them into a book, so they've got that going for them as a counterbalance.

Not to mention wild shape, turning attempts, etc.

T2 classes ar their highest can do some really powerful, game changing stuff, while the sample guy provided probably couldn't do the same game altering things. But, a his best, he could do a LOT of things, placing him more in T3.

This doesn't make the sorcerer better, just higher tier, by definition.

[NecroRebel]

Yes, tyckspoon is completely correct, and yes, it's hard to imagine how mundane characters would ever have that kind of "standard action solution" available to them, no matter the situation. I cannot even imagine a Tier 2 or Tier 1 mundane class.

I think you could do it, but it wouldn't be thematically appropriate. I'm imagining a character whose battle armor had greatly miniaturized versions of all of the amazing devices used in Star Trek, particularly TNG. Holodecks could emulate most of the functions of the Illusion school, including shadow spells, including many summons. Transporters allow teleportation, that's obvious enough. Sensors match or exceed the Divination school outside of the precognitive stuff. Replicators can mimic a lot of permanent conjurations, and a lot of other stuff could be done by replicating various mundane devices - stuff like motorcycles or small airplanes for transportation, motion detectors for alarms, and so on. Star Trek medical science has lots of cool healing devices, and those could work for that, too. You could figure out tons of stuff that could be done with this.

The only problem is that it's clearly the realm of sci-fi instead of fantasy (and most of those devices probably aren't physically possible anyway, so they're really just magic dressed up as science), but if you ignore that, a character based off such a thing would likely be solidly tier-2 and mundane.

[Carth]

Not to mention wild shape, turning attempts, etc.


Heh, true. Wildshaping and the animal companion makes the druid better at melee than the fighter, leaving only the skill monkey niche. I'm not sure how a druid could pull that off, but also as mentioned, a cleric can be a better skill monkey than a rogue and be just as good a the druid in melee. The cleric can be doing melee and skillmonkeying all day long, too, so there goes the endurance argument. The problem mundanes have is the melee is one of the easiest things in the game to be effective at, so it's territory spellcasters can readily overtake from them.

[Phelix-Mu]

Wow, well, I'm not saying it is possible, but man, this is a tempting challenge. While I agree that tier 1 is a bit of a stretch, I bet I can get a significantly stripped down Project X-type concept into tier 2. Ooh, zounds.

So, I can get my head around tier 1 (do anything better anytime, all of the time, etc), but can someone direct me to a good distinction between tier 3 and tier 2?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

So, I can get my head around tier 1 (do anything better anytime, all of the time, etc), but can someone direct me to a good distinction between tier 3 and tier 2?

Firstly, Tier 2 is actually a bit of an odd man out, as it's the one tier where raw power DOES sometimes override versatility. Still, the idea is that the class itself has the ability to overcome every obstacle, although no one single build will be able to access all that power. Things like the Sorcerer, Favored Soul, and Psion fall into Tier 2.

From the Tier list itself:

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

As for the challenge? Good luck. I've been thinking on the matter for a couple years now, and still haven't hit on anything even close enough to a solution for me to start even the roughest of homebrew drafts.

[Karnith]

[C]an someone direct me to a good distinction between tier 3 and tier 2?
Probably the best place to look would be JaronK's Tier System for Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266559), which is where the ideas of tiers were more or less codified. For in-depth examples, you can check the Why Each Class Is In Its Tier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269440) thread (which was itself re-posted from the BG thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.0)).

EDIT: Djinn in Tonic beat me to the actual explanation, so I'll just leave some links.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I actually did a pretty comprehensive analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13108630&postcount=43) on what would happen if you were to create an "omnistalt" of every single class relegated only to (Ex) and even (Su) abilities (with the supernaturals kept to a minimum), and came to the conclusion that, even with its exceptional range of features, and everything that makes mundane classes playable turned to 11 and thrown together all at once, a core Wizard still does it better (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13109615&postcount=47). So tier 1 is right out.

When you look at everything that the class can do, rolled into one, it becomes apparent that, for the exhaustively (!) long list of class features, bonuses, resistances, and immunities that this class would have, it still doesn't do anything game-breaking. At all. Sure, it can pump out absurd amounts of damage (attach +25d6+5d8 damage to the feat chains and maneuvers of your choosing, situationally), is ridiculously difficult to kill (has a lot of resistances and a few immunities, all good saves and the ability to flat-out make them, DR), are making the absolute most of their skills (at least, as much as you can without Factotum levels), even one or two of the broken ones... But you still aren't able to do anything to break the game wide open, to shatter campaigns outright like anybody with access to even one broken Wizard trick can. Enter the Sorcerer... A class which even the omnistalt is not. The Sorcerer and the Omnistalt really have about the same number of tricks up their sleeve at level 20 (Omnistalt being more front-loaded with incremental bonuses, and the Sorcerer progressing quadratically), but the Sorcerer can choose from a bag of tricks that doesn't just end encounters--it levels entire worlds. The Omnistalt can contribute to a wide variety of different encounters and even just outright shut down certain encounters single-handedly--but nothing it does, barring some fringe case that requires a lot of optimization, elevates it qualitatively beyond "biggest, baddest guy in the room... When the Wizard is not trying to show him up". So tier 2 it is not.

So if you were to combine the benefits of all class features from mundane classes, all you would get are the sum of its parts, which may end up to a really big number--but still doesn't change the fact that mundane classes are playing with arithmetic and full casters with quadratics.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

None of the maneuvers in Tome of Battle are standard action solutions, particularly when the problem is not combat.

I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but Shadow Jaunt defeats a lot of environmental hazards at level 3 when environmental hazards still matter.

[Jeff the Green]

One option for a mundane Tier 2 would be something similar to my Inspired Inventor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14803127#post14803127), though without the Artificer stuff and lots more gadget options. Basically Batman.

[Lans]

1 the bonus feat every level puts him solidly in T4. if he could ignore prereqs for those bonus feats, that would get him to T3.
.

Unless the bonus feats are restricted in some way, the ability to ignore prereqs probably makes it tier 2. Shape Soulmeld+open soul chakra=gate. I'm sure there are others

[lsfreak]

So, I can get my head around tier 1 (do anything better anytime, all of the time, etc), but can someone direct me to a good distinction between tier 3 and tier 2?

Tier 4 can end an encounter, but only of one kind. They have a meaningful effect on the encounter level: they can single-handedly end an encounter.

Tier 3 can end several kinds of encounters, and be the driving force behind others. They have a meaningful effect on the quest level: their presence and variety of skill can not only win an encounter, but change the course of a given quest and the options the PC's have to fulfill the quest.

Tier 2 can win any type of encounter in a single standard action (though a given character is limited to a few types of encounters). A smart T2 character acts on the story level - a sorcerer with teleport, a spirit shaman with control weather, or a favored soul with animate dead fundamentally change how certain stories can be structured, because they can completely negate the entire premise ("travel the daaaangerous mountains to convince the reclusive tribe to give us the MacGuffin!" isn't a challenge if the DM has failed to consider the sorcerer knows both teleport and dominate, and the DM must do this for several other types of encounters).

Tier 1 can win any encounter with a single standard action, and can do this for essentially ever kind of encounter, and risks breaking the campaign premise by even being in the narrative. A smart one can break or reshape the world with relatively little effort; see Tippyverse and similar thought experiments.

EDIT: Wording. And I'll add that there is widespread misunderstanding about how huge the difference between T3 and T2 is - it's about options, the ability to not merely win but break multiple kinds of encounters with minimal in-character effort, and to risk ruining the entire campaign if you play smart. If you can't do those things, you're not T2.

[Carth]

Unless the bonus feats are restricted in some way, the ability to ignore prereqs probably makes it tier 2. Shape Soulmeld+open soul chakra=gate. I'm sure there are others

You can't access soul chakras with feats.

[Pickford]

Eh, wizards can have any spell they know ready in 15 minutes if they left a slot open.

Which doesn't do you much good if you need it 'right now'.

[Karnith]

You can't access soul chakras with feats.
Actually, you can, though it takes an epic feat to do so. Normally, you would need to be character level 24 to take the feat, but if you can ignore pre-reqs (as is being discussed), that's not a problem.

[Carth]

Which doesn't do you much good if you need it 'right now'.

I like how you conveniently ignored the subsequent sentence.


Actually, you can, though it takes an epic feat to do so. Normally, you would need to be character level 24 to take the feat, but if you can ignore pre-reqs (as is being discussed), that's not a problem.

Oh, I hadn't figured that included even epic feats. Exceptional and infinite deflection would help, at least, too.

[Phelix-Mu]

Oh, I hadn't figured that included even epic feats. Exceptional and infinite deflection would help, at least, too.

The Reflect Arrows synergy would be cool, as well. I might try to have some limit on the epic feats...gosh, it's a big power boost otherwise. I guess that is what we need (trying to keep in mind what sorcs and psions are capable of...).

Feats that grant access to Su needs to be discussed, too, since you can gain numerous spellcasting-ish options (such as the aforementioned essentia thing). With 20 bonus feats ignoring pre-reqs, that stands to be quite a lot of stuff. If we want to maintain "mundane" then Su needs to be kept to a minimum.

But I think even with access to 20 feats that can be re-selected every day, we probably still need some kind of expanded maneuver system to add the versatility that everyone seems to feel is the hallmark of tier 2. I was thinking of a access to all maneuvers, number known/readied as swordsage, list known can be reselected each day with 1 hour of meditation, recharged in combat as a warblade (with a possible added option...warblade is cool, but restrictive in it's own way). I would prefer to avoid homebrew maneuvers, but that might be hard.

I'd also want to rework the stance mechanic, to allow multiple stances active before 20th. I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out a flight solution that isn't Su, but maybe you could grow wings...not an ideal solution.

I have a number of ideas, but it all is probably better set up in the homebrew section.

[Rubik]

In short, while I find spellcasters to be a fun "how many variables can you account for at the same time" exercise intellectually speaking, I find mundanes, or non-dedicated spellcasters, to be much more constraining, and thus a superior intellectual challenge. Sad that I can't have both great versatility without the win buttons....:smallfrown:Look in the SRD at the shaper psion's power list. There's a LOT of great versatility there, and they're constrained enough in powers known that you won't have too many IWIN buttons (if any). Just focus on metacreativity with a few other defensive and utility powers, and you're good.

Seriously, that's why I love that class more than all others. If in gestalt, add factotum and you're done.

[tiercel]

Generally the thing about tiers (re: the question of "can you even have a Tier 1 and a Tier >3 in the same game?") is that the difference between tiers becomes more apparent at higher levels, because of the whole "linear fighter, quadratic/exponential wizard" issue.

That's not to say that wizards aren't more flexible even at, say, level 2 than fighters are, but a level 2 wizard won't completely own every encounter and make his fighter buddy feel useless the way that a level 15 wizard will compared to a level 15 fighter (or even some slightly more reasonable Fighter 6/PrC 9 build).

The difference is that a level 15 wizard doesn't even have to optimize for his bag of tricks to be incredibly impressive, where the level 15 mundane likely has to be carefully built (and usually heavily buffed by his caster buddies) to even be relevant in comparison to even a "beer & pretzels" wizard.

In my experience, the low-to-mid-op games I've generally played in, mundanes can be in the same party with full casters without any problem up to around level 9, between 9-12 start to really feel the difference, and much beyond level 12 start really feeling the pinch even without the casters trying very hard. In a higher-op game, this transition would likely take place at lower character levels, unless the full casters are specifically optimizing to help their mundane buddies rather than their own personal power.

Of course, the large majority of my gaming experience is between levels 1-12 so it hasn't been that big a deal.

[Dimers]

Creative problem solving can be done with various resources ... I'm not sure we can discount the non-magical world just since it can't get it done in under six seconds.

But y'see, the wizards and clerics can ALSO use those other solutions. If, for example, your DM lets players come up with and execute great plans with just a skill roll or two, then not only can a Tier1 simply press their usual "I win" button, but the Tier1 can also use their own skills to do the same thing ... probably better because they can use magical boosts and are more likely to be SAD.

As to whether mundanes could possibly ever be T2? I say no, but for different reasons than most here.

The game-breaking kinds of magic don't just expand numbers, they fundamentally change what kinds of actions are possible. Being able to sense things otherwise intangible (including the future or a foe's hidden weakness), get to any place it's necessary to be, automatically take the crucial first action in a fight, cancel immunities, adapt yourself (shapechange) or your team (summon monster, buff spells) to address problems at hand without previous preparation, make yourself essentially impossible to target ... these are what truly separate the Magic from the Mundane. Mundane characters have the potential to operate really really well within the rules, but magic characters can change the rules.

As a side effect of that corelation, the more an effect changes the rules, the more it's considered magic, regardless of how it's fluffed. See also: haters' rants about Tome of Battle.

So basically a mundane can't be Tier 1 or 2 because they'd be considered magical if they have any ability that opens major new possibilities.

[HunterOfJello]

The highest tier pure-mundane class is the Warblade at Tier 3. The other high pure-mundanes are each at Tier 4. You really aren't going to get higher than Tier 3 without magic.

[Tvtyrant]

Pure Mundane Tier 1-2? Sentient Nanite-hive organism with the ability to construct advanced technology out of its body. Anti-gravity, teleport, invisibility, summons by splitting off colonies, etc. Entirely mundane, generally considered the wrong genre.

[ahenobarbi]

Wasn't there a feat chain that gave 9th level casting? I think it was something like:

- Magical Training (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-guide-to-faerun--22/magical-training--1834/).
- Spell Focus (your choice) (prerequisite).
- Metamagic School Focus (your choice) (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-mage--58/metamagic-school-focus--1931/).
- Earth Sense (prereq).
- Heighten Spell.
- Earth Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-stone--82/earth-spell--798/).

Now you can prepare 0-level spell from your chosen school in 0-level slot, heightened to level 1. If you cast it standing on the ground it's heightened to level 2. This qualifies you to take Extra Slot (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/extra-slot--1036/) to get 1st level slot.

Cast 3r level spell using method from previous paragraph (applying it to 1st level slot) to get 2nd level slot, repeat until you get 9th level spells.

Now this requires a lot of feats (15 to get first 9th level slot) so most classes can't pull it off. But since this class would get 20 bonus eats it wouldn't be a problem.

[jywu98]

Wasn't there a feat chain that gave 9th level casting? I think it was something like:

- Magical Training (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-guide-to-faerun--22/magical-training--1834/).
- Spell Focus (your choice) (prerequisite).
- Metamagic School Focus (your choice) (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-mage--58/metamagic-school-focus--1931/).
- Earth Sense (prereq).
- Heighten Spell.
- Earth Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-stone--82/earth-spell--798/).

Now you can prepare 0-level spell from your chosen school in 0-level slot, heightened to level 1. If you cast it standing on the ground it's heightened to level 2. This qualifies you to take Extra Slot (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/extra-slot--1036/) to get 1st level slot.

Cast 3r level spell using method from previous paragraph (applying it to 1st level slot) to get 2nd level slot, repeat until you get 9th level spells.

Now this requires a lot of feats (15 to get first 9th level slot) so most classes can't pull it off. But since this class would get 20 bonus eats it wouldn't be a problem.

He wouldn't be able to cast any spells other than the cantrips he chose.

[ahenobarbi]

He wouldn't be able to cast any spells other than the cantrips he chose.

If you chose Wizard Casting nothing stops you from adding new spells to spell book. If you chose sorcerer casting then Extra Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/extra-spell--1044/) comes to save the day.

[jywu98]

If you chose Wizard Casting nothing stops you from adding new spells to spell book. If you chose sorcerer casting then Extra Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/extra-spell--1044/) comes to save the day.

Whoops, missed that last line, my bad. :smallyuk:

Still, I would argue that by doing this, the character isn't mundane anymore. He's elevated to tier 2 because he acquired pseudo-spellcasting, not because of his mundane abilities.

[ahenobarbi]

Whoops, missed that last line, my bad. :smallyuk:

Still, I would argue that by doing this, the character isn't mundane anymore. He's elevated to tier 2 because he acquired pseudo-spellcasting, not because of his mundane abilities.

I agree. Character that can cast 9th level spells at level 10 (15 feats needed to get casting: 10 from class levels, 1 from human, 4 at levels 1,3,6,9) can hardly be considered mundane (hmm I think it's fastest access to 9 level spells I've seen... and all good saves, d12, lots of skill points on top of that).

I just wanted to point that huge amounts of feats are quite powerful. Even if you have to meet prerequisites. If you could skip prerequisites this thing becomes crazy. Like be "Dragonwrought human and take epic feats" good (dragonwrought gives you access to epic feats and class let's you skip other prerequisites) .

[jywu98]

I just wanted to point that huge amounts of feats are quite powerful. Even if you have to meet prerequisites. If you could skip prerequisites this thing becomes crazy. Like be "Dragonwrought human and take epic feats" good (dragonwrought gives you access to epic feats and class let's you skip other prerequisites) .

EPIC SPELLCASTING/MANIFESTING BEST FEAT EVER.

[Komatik]

It sort of is. Go for it.



A poorly played Wizard, yes. But a well-played one will have more resources than a Fighter, since he won't take damage (and thus won't run out of hit points), has an answer to every fight (and thus won't be rendered useless and unable to assist in a given situation), can prepare for anything in advance via proper use of Divination magic, and has a million ways to end combat, retreat safely to a place his opponent can't touch and, via things like different time flows on other planes, immediately teleport back into combat after 8 hours on a fast-time plane where he refreshed and reselected his spells for the fight at hand.

That's the tier gap right there. A Fighter functions at full capacity until his hit points wear away...but his full capacity is only a fraction of what the Wizard has, and a Wizard is capable of using his strengths to overcome all his own weaknesses.

With all this time flow stuff, would it not be reasonable to suggest Druids are weaker than Wizards given they can't do all the insane plane shifting stuff for insant spell retooling and the like(via their spell list, anyway). Basically, if we divide the God Tier, Wiz/Archivist are top, Druid is low? Say, Tier 1.5? Or am I just missing some summon/wildshape form that breaks everything apart anyway?

[jywu98]

With all this time flow stuff, would it not be reasonable to suggest Druids are weaker than Wizards given they can't do all the insane plane shifting stuff for insant spell retooling and the like(via their spell list, anyway). Basically, if we divide the God Tier, Wiz/Archivist are top, Druid is low? Say, Tier 1.5? Or am I just missing some summon/wildshape form that breaks everything apart anyway?

Nah, Druids are still tier one. Wild shape allows them to be in combat efficiently, and the animal companion effectively functions as half a character. Yes, Druids cannot access timestop and wish shenanigans easily (Planar Shepard can fix that), they are still powerful and versatile enough to be a T1. They also arguably have an easier time than the rest of Big Six during early levels.

Btw, God tier, or tier 0, is only occupied by Psi Arty and the StP Erudite, though the latter is usually considered tier 1.

[Komatik]

Nah, Druids are still tier one. Wild shape allows them to be in combat efficiently, and the animal companion effectively functions as half a character. Yes, Druids cannot access timestop and wish shenanigans easily (Planar Shepard can fix that), they are still powerful and versatile enough to be a T1. They also arguably have an easier time than the rest of Big Six during early levels.

Btw, God tier, or tier 0, is only occupied by Psi Arty and the StP Erudite, though the latter is usually considered tier 1.

They're obviously absurdly powerful and ridiculously versatile, often completely spontaneously. No question about that at all, nor the Tier 1 status. Just saying that it feels like there's a fundamental kind of difference in capability, a bit like between casters and high level mundanes. Like, Druids act super well within the rules and break so many so that the campaign can turn into a farce. But they still just break the rules. Wizard/Cleric list things just don't even care.

[jywu98]

They're obviously absurdly powerful and ridiculously versatile, often completely spontaneously. No question about that at all, nor the Tier 1 status. Just saying that it feels like there's a fundamental kind of difference in capability, a bit like between casters and high level mundanes. Like, Druids act super well within the rules and break so many so that the campaign can turn into a farce. But they still just break the rules. Wizard/Cleric list things just don't even care.

What? Druids act well within the rules while breaking them? And what does your last sentence mean?

And honestly, Druids can do all the stuff Djinn_in_Toxic listed. So I don't see what you're arguing here.

[Komatik]

What? Druids act well within the rules while breaking them? And what does your last sentence mean?

And honestly, Druids can do all the stuff Djinn_in_Toxic listed. So I don't see what you're arguing here.

I mean: They do stuff superbly within the rules: For example, turning into a huge elemental and grilling stuff and tearing it to bits, or flying or whatever. They also do stuff that breaks more normal campaigns apart, like control weather and whatnot. They have a large array of these kinds of abilities and can mix and match every day from anything ever printed. To challenge them requires ridiculous contrivances. Tier 1, clearly.

Yet, within the space of Tier 1, a continuum of power surely exists? Like how Fighter and Soulknife are both Tier 5 but at different ends of the spectrum? Similarily, Druids to ridiculous stuff. But take a caster with access to Wiz/Sorc list or Cleric list and we get to a whole other level of absurdity with fast-flowing time planes, creating planes, Time Stop, and such. The Druid is broken, but can't dream of that level of brokenness as far as I'm aware. (Pure Druid anyway)

[jywu98]

Granted, the Druid doesn't get those abuses as easily, but it is doable. I am away from my computer so I cannot show you how though.

[Komatik]

Granted, the Druid doesn't get those abuses as easily, but it is doable. I am away from my computer so I cannot show you how though.

I can wait ^^
Am curious to know how, though, when you have time and access to teh compy.

[Alienist]

Another question is, if magic is needed to enter the top two tiers, then how much is the minimum amount? i.e., how much less than full casting can we staple to a somewhat trimmed down Project X and manage the versatility that seems to define the highest tiers?

And, on a personal note, I think it's not necessarily good to measure versatility in a manner of "output x/round." Faster is not strictly better, even with magic (though it is probably...*sigh*....optimal).

Remember that the difference between Tier 2 and Tier 1 is that Tier 2 has one or to ways to break the game, Tier one has lots of ways to break the game.

In order to cross the thresh-hold into Tier 2 you have to have at an absolute minimum one way to break the game.

----

It's easy to look at versatility and think "oh, that's what spearates tier 1 and tier 2. But the ability to rewrite your class features (the ultimate flexibility) doesn't make you tier 1, otherwise Factotums and Chameleons would be much higher.

[Alienist]

But take a caster with access to Wiz/Sorc list or Cleric list and we get to a whole other level of absurdity with fast-flowing time planes

Creating your own plane and twiddling the time trait is not a function of a high tier class, that's a function of a complete and utter disregard for RAW.

By RAW Planar Shepherd is what you want for fast flowing time planes.

[jywu98]

Creating your own plane and twiddling the time trait is not a function of a high tier class, that's a function of a complete and utter disregard for RAW.

By RAW Planar Shepherd is what you want for fast flowing time planes.

Actually, RAW can go both ways for the Arcane version of Genesis. Unlike Psionic Genesis, it is not explicitly stated that the time trait cannot be modified.

[Answerer]

Careful, when we talk about "standard action solutions" we don't necessarily mean broken stuff like shapechange or time stop. At high levels of optimization (where the Fighter will OHK anything he can connect with), those spells can cinch the deal for spellcasters, but even at low levels and low power, grease is just a massively more effective standard action than... almost anything any mundane character of any level can do. Against the right enemies, anyway. Same is true of, say, glitterdust or solid fog.

[Anthrowhale]

Access to Alter Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm), for example as by the ExFighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265730), can make a mundane character Tier 1.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Access to Alter Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm), for example as by the ExFighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265730), can make a mundane character Tier 1.

Firstly, immunity does not equate to Tier 1. Secondly, assuming that using Tier 1 tricks to buff a mundane character doesn't A: actually necessarily make the character Tier 1, and B: doesn't really count as mundane any more, as all your power is derived from Tier 1 tricks.

[Carth]

Yeah, the body swap trick is neat, but it doesn't really prove anything here. Frankly it doesn't prove anything about fighters versus casters either.

Something I think people lose sight of is that while sure, you can get level 9 spells and other awesome stuff using only feats and WBL, that only tends to highlight how awesome feats and WBL are, not how awesome classes are.

[ahenobarbi]

Something I think people lose sight of is that while sure, you can get level 9 spells and other awesome stuff using only feats and WBL, that only tends to highlight how awesome feats and WBL are, not how awesome classes are.

Eh? Class that would give you bonus feat a level would be awesome. Because you could pick awesome feats (like getting 9th level spells at character level 10).

Saying "such a class isn't awesome only feats are awesome" is like saying "wizard class isn't awesome only spells are awesome".

WBL-mancy is a bit different because anyone can do it.

[Talakeal]

Actually, RAW can go both ways for the Arcane version of Genesis. Unlike Psionic Genesis, it is not explicitly stated that the time trait cannot be modified.

It doesn't say I can't isn't a good justification for saying you can. Genesis says you can control the environment of the plane. I says nothing about planar traits, and doing so is obviously neither balanced nor intended by the author (it would be hard to have been intended by the author, as planar traits didn't exist when the spell was written). True you could say that planar traits fall under the heading of environment, but that is a very strained reading that few DMs would ever agree to.

It would be like me saying "The PHB says that fighters have "the best all around fighting capabilities'" (which it does) and taking that to mean I can give myself any sort of combat ability or bonus I like because it doesn't say I can't and RAW says that I must be the best at combat.

Also, the time traits in the manual of the planes are clearly listed as non standard rules and it states that no plane in the default D&D cosmology has them. So you need DM fiat either way to manipulate planar time traits, unless there is something I am missing in the planar shepherd class (very possible).

[Answerer]

(it would be hard to have been intended by the author, as planar traits didn't exist when the spell was written)
False; Manual of the Planes came out before Epic Level Handbook. The 3.5 DMG's planar traits are taken straight from Manual of the Planes. Time, in particular, is described on page 10 of Manual of the Planes.

[Talakeal]

False; Manual of the Planes came out before Epic Level Handbook. The 3.5 DMG's planar traits are taken straight from Manual of the Planes. Time, in particular, is described on page 10 of Manual of the Planes.

Genesis first appeared in Defenders of the Faith, which predated the Manual of the Planes. It was reprinted several times in later books (including the ELH), but the text was not updated.

[Urpriest]

With slightly refluffed Infusions, Artificers work fine as a Tier 1 mundane. Mundanes still use magic items, after all, as the archetypal D&D Fighter with a flaming sword demonstrates. And crafting magic items is not particularly outside of the mundane archetype, given that Pathfinder sees fit to allow access to itemcrafting for otherwise mundane crafters.

[jywu98]

It doesn't say I can't isn't a good justification for saying you can. Genesis says you can control the environment of the plane. I says nothing about planar traits, and doing so is obviously neither balanced nor intended by the author (it would be hard to have been intended by the author, as planar traits didn't exist when the spell was written). True you could say that planar traits fall under the heading of environment, but that is a very strained reading that few DMs would ever agree to.



No, it's not. Environment is defined as the surroundings or conditions a particular thing is living in. I don't see how it doesn't include time.

[Answerer]

With slightly refluffed Infusions, Artificers work fine as a Tier 1 mundane. Mundanes still use magic items, after all, as the archetypal D&D Fighter with a flaming sword demonstrates. And crafting magic items is not particularly outside of the mundane archetype, given that Pathfinder sees fit to allow access to itemcrafting for otherwise mundane crafters.
Yeah, I really don't feel like that counts as a mundane.

[Urpriest]

Yeah, I really don't feel like that counts as a mundane.

Why not, though? In the average low-op group, most of a Fighter's damage comes from Flaming and other enhancements stacked on their weapon, and essentially all of their AC comes from magic items as well. In D&D-esque fiction when mundane characters save the world they almost invariably do so with the benefit of magical McGuffins. Most Greek heroes made pretty heavy use of magic items as well. What makes those guys mundane, and an Artificer magical?

[Talakeal]

No, it's not. Environment is defined as the surroundings or conditions a particular thing is living in. I don't see how it doesn't include time.

Tell me then, what DOESN'T fall under the heading of environment? I can't think of anything I could ever want, corporeal or conceptual, that couldn't be classified as part of my surroundings or conditions.

[The Trickster]

Eh? Class that would give you bonus feat a level would be awesome. Because you could pick awesome feats (like getting 9th level spells at character level 10).

Ok, my noob is showing. What feats give characters spell like that? :smallamused:


Saying "such a class isn't awesome only feats are awesome" is like saying "wizard class isn't awesome only spells are awesome".

Well...isn't that true? I mean, take away spells, and what is the wizard? A dude with and awesome pet...and heck, you can get a familiar with a feat.

Also, wouldn't a feat chain that gives spells to a non maguc user kinda defeat the purpose of the thread? If you can use magic, you aren't a non magic user anymore. :smalltongue:

[jywu98]

Tell me then, what DOESN'T fall under the heading of environment? I can't think of anything I could ever want, corporeal or conceptual, that couldn't be classified as part of my surroundings or conditions.

Anything that can be considered as environment can be modified with Arcane Genesis, EXCEPT life and construction. RAW isn't Read as Talakeal intended last time I checked, even though the game is more balanced that way.

[JaronK]

No, it's not. Environment is defined as the surroundings or conditions a particular thing is living in. I don't see how it doesn't include time.

Technically, it's:


1. The circumstances or conditions that surround one; surroundings.
2. The totality of circumstances surrounding an organism or group of organisms, especially:
a. The combination of external physical conditions that affect and influence the growth, development, and survival of organisms

Time is obviously an external physical condition that affects and influences the growth, development, and survival of an organism. It's also obviously a condition that surrounds anything on the plane.

Not only that, but you HAVE to set some planar traits when you create a new plane... otherwise, what's the gravity of the plane? There has to be something. So yeah, you're very much correct... time can be screwed with because the spell is stupid.

In the end, Genesis is a stupidly broken spell precisely because they said you can pick any environment you can visualize with a few (insufficient) exceptions. The Psionic Genesis power is well written by comparison, and doesn't allow for such tricks.

JaronK

[jywu98]

Holy ****! It's JaronK! I don't see you around minmax anymore... :smallfrown:

[JaronK]

I pop up and disappear at various times, but I'm not sure I have a minmax account any more after all the changes. Plus, life has been *really* chaotic of late, and not in very fun ways.

JaronK

[Talakeal]

Anything that can be considered as environment can be modified with Arcane Genesis, EXCEPT life and construction. RAW isn't Read as Talakeal intended last time I checked, even though the game is more balanced that way.

Why are we talking about my intent at all? I didn't write the spell, I had no intent.

Now, if you intended to say Rules as Talakeal interprets, well, they actually are, because all reading is interpretation. I am incapable of taking away anything from letters on a page other than my interpretation.

Words only exists as constructs in the mind of the reader, and all language is dependent upon the reader's / listener's interpretation.

Unless your text exists as pure math (and even then it needs a external context to give it meaning) there is going to be some interpretation required.

Words in English have multiple meanings and vice versa. People speak in generalizations and metaphors. Some words have implications which are not universal.

If you are trying to find a loophole by "RAW" then you can do so, but you can't also claim that there is one single RAW if you do so, as most people will come away with very different interpretations, meaning that you are going to have to resort to rules as intended or rules as interpreted to get any consensus.

For example, I am just going to open my PHB to a random page and look at the first rule I see. Page 39, "Alignment: A monk's training requires strict discipline. Only those who are lawful at heart are capable of undertaking it."

Now, most anyone will interpret this rule as "To be a monk, you have to have a lawful alignment", and that is almost certainly what the author intended. But that isn't actually RAW. For example, nothing says you need to train to be a class or to continue gaining levels in a class. If I name my monk "Lawful" and name my house "Heart" I am now "Lawful at Heart" and able to train as a monk. If I am a lawful outsider my heart is literally composed of law, even if my actual alignment is otherwise. Likewise, if my character changed alignment due to undertaking actions which I don't really believe in I am still lawful at heart, even if my alignment is different. And so on...

Also, if you are going to be doing such open readings, I suggest polymorph any object instead of Genesis. It allows you to create, barring a few very simple and very easily circumvented limitations, any object or creature you can imagine. Nothing, by RAW, says that what you create has to actually exist, so you can turn objects into creatures with all sorts of ridiculous abilities. For example, I can't make gold, but does anything say I can't polymorph a rock into a machine that turns air into gold? Or a creature that has the innate ability to grant me, and only me, a hundred billion bonus XP?

[jywu98]

{scrubbed}

[Talakeal]

Not only that, but you HAVE to set some planar traits when you create a new plane... otherwise, what's the gravity of the plane? There has to be something. So yeah, you're very much correct... time can be screwed with because the spell is stupid.


Keep in mind, Genesis was written before planar traits were a thing.

I know most people don't consider it "RAW" or "official", but I know Skip Williams, one of the authors of the PHB, said in one of his Sage Advice or Rules of the Game articles that in the absence of a specific rule regarding something you should assume that something works "normally" and follows real world / human limitations.

Going by that, I would assume that it has the same planar traits as the Prime Material Plane.

[jywu98]

Keep in mind, Genesis was written before planar traits were a thing.

I know most people don't consider it "RAW" or "official", but I know Skip Williams, one of the authors of the PHB, said in one of his Sage Advice or Rules of the Game articles that in the absence of a specific rule regarding something you should assume that something works "normally" and follows real world / human limitations.

Going by that, I would assume that it has the same planar traits as the Prime Material Plane.

Yet they did not update it during its port to ELH, or the 3.5e conversion, both of which happened after Manual of Planes iirc.

[Talakeal]

Now you're just being stupid. Your monk example doesn't work because that description is fluff. The SRD, which is devoid of fluff, just states "Any Lawful" under alignment. And there is really no need for me to address your hideously flawed argument about PAO, but I will. Since there is no advanced technology, transforming **** into gold will count as a magic item, which cannot be made via PAO. Furthermore, if a creature doesn't exist in the game, how can your character transform into it? Compare this to Genesis modifying time traits, of which the rules are available. You're comparing apples to oranges here.

I strongly recommend you think before posting. It helps.

The example I gave about the monk was, as I said, just the first thing I saw in the PHB. It was, however, a direct quote of the ENTIRETY of the alignment section of the PHB, so if you dismiss it as "fluff" then there are no rules for monks and alignment in the PHB.

Again, when Genesis was first printed in Defenders of the Faith planar traits did not exist. Claiming it can modify time traits is, in my mind, no less ridiculous than using polymorph to create things which do not exist.

I overstated my point a bit for emphasis, but my core point remains:

The books are not written with precise enough language for there to be one singular RAW on most issues. If you try and read them as such, especially with the aim of finding unintended advantages for your character, you are going to end up with something that is far more inconsistent and up to individual interpretation than trying to find a reasonable RAI or RAMS interpretation.


Yet they did not update it during its port to ELH, or the 3.5e conversion, both of which happened after Manual of Planes iirc.

True, they didn't, but the ELH only came out a few months after manual of the planes, and I honestly don't think they were aware of the issue. They didn't actually update the spell at all, it appears to be a word for word reprint.

They did however, make note of planar traits when they created the psionic version of the spell, which is to me a clear indication of designer intent, although I suppose you could interpret it as an intentional and arbitrary limitation on the power of psionics versus magic.

[JaronK]

Keep in mind, Genesis was written before planar traits were a thing.

I know most people don't consider it "RAW" or "official", but I know Skip Williams, one of the authors of the PHB, said in one of his Sage Advice or Rules of the Game articles that in the absence of a specific rule regarding something you should assume that something works "normally" and follows real world / human limitations.

Going by that, I would assume that it has the same planar traits as the Prime Material Plane.

Except that Genesis must always be cast in the Astral Plane, which does not have the same gravity as the PMP. So that ruling doesn't make any sense at all.

The fact is, Genesis was reprinted (unchanged) after Planar Traits were printed. It should have been changed (as Psionic Genesis was), but it wasn't. By RAW, Planar Traits can be influenced because they perfectly fit the definition of "environment" rather perfectly.

JaronK

[jywu98]

The example I gave about the monk was, as I said, just the first thing I saw in the PHB. It was, however, a direct quote of the ENTIRETY of the alignment section of the PHB, so if you dismiss it as "fluff" then there are no rules for monks and alignment in the PHB.

Again, when Genesis was first printed in Defenders of the Faith planar traits did not exist. Claiming it can modify time traits is, in my mind, no less ridiculous than using polymorph to create things which do not exist.

I overstated my point a bit for emphasis, but my core point remains:

The books are not written with precise enough language for there to be one singular RAW on most issues. If you try and read them as such, especially with the aim of finding unintended advantages for your character, you are going to end up with something that is far more inconsistent and up to individual interpretation than trying to find a reasonable RAI or RAMS interpretation.

I do agree RAW can be quite ambiguous at times. It is however, crystal-clear here. And like JaronK stated, WotC did not change Genesis after its ports even after the release of Manual of the Planes, nor bothered to errata it.

Anyway, I believe most of the points have been made, so let's just agree to disagree and not derail the thread any further. :smalltongue:

[Talakeal]

Except that Genesis must always be cast in the Astral Plane, which does not have the same gravity as the PMP. So that ruling doesn't make any sense at all.

The fact is, Genesis was reprinted (unchanged) after Planar Traits were printed. It should have been changed (as Psionic Genesis was), but it wasn't. By RAW, Planar Traits can be influenced because they perfectly fit the definition of "environment" rather perfectly.

JaronK

Again, Genesis was written before manual of planes, so I don't know if the Astral Plane was without gravity at that point. Indeed, I don't think any of the planes where yet specified as having traits that differed significantly than the prime material, although there might be something hidden in the 3.0 DMG.

I stand by the opinion that the reprinting in the ELH was simply because the authors had yet to think of using Genesis to modify planar traits rather than an admission of intent. As they say, never attribute to malice what you can chalk up to ignorance.

I will, however, agree that it is a very vague and badly written rule, and that you would not be in the wrong to interpret it that way, just as someone else is not in the wrong to interpret it in the opposite manner. Personally I choose to interpret rules in the way that does not completely break the game wherever possible, although sometimes even this isn't an option (damn you shape change!).

[jywu98]

I agree with you on your last point. I personally would not allow my players to abuse Genesis either, unless it's an insanely high powered campaign where everyone is a wizard.

[Carth]

Eh? Class that would give you bonus feat a level would be awesome. Because you could pick awesome feats (like getting 9th level spells at character level 10).

Saying "such a class isn't awesome only feats are awesome" is like saying "wizard class isn't awesome only spells are awesome".

WBL-mancy is a bit different because anyone can do it.

That was more in response to Anthrowhale's...thing. I'm not talking about the made up d12 full BAB infinite skill points and feats thing that's been floated about. So few classes grant bonus feats than can be anything (IE, would be useful for the 9th level spellcasting trick) that it doesn't really apply to your point, in terms of real classes and so forth. Sure, you can grab classes that get you feats and then chaos shuffle them away, but that just proves my point that the features of the class itself suck. For instance, in Anthrowhale's case he pulls off a neat trick, but literally any character is capable of doing the same thing. As a litmus test, if anyone can pull off the same trick with the exact same feats and WBL, you're not really proving anything about your class(es). Which is why Anthrowhale's thing isn't really interesting, because a T1/T2 chassis can pull off the exact same body swap trick, and has a better class chassis, so ends up being more powerful.

[JaronK]

Again, Genesis was written before manual of planes, so I don't know if the Astral Plane was without gravity at that point. Indeed, I don't think any of the planes where yet specified as having traits that differed significantly than the prime material, although there might be something hidden in the 3.0 DMG.

Astral has always had nonstandard gravity. Traits existed when Genesis was printed, they just weren't codified into "traits." It was just... stuff about the plane. So yes, non standard gravity already existed even back then.


I stand by the opinion that the reprinting in the ELH was simply because the authors had yet to think of using Genesis to modify planar traits rather than an admission of intent. As they say, never attribute to malice what you can chalk up to ignorance.

Sure, but that doesn't change what it says. Efreetis were given the ability to give wishes, most likely in ignorance of the fact that they could easily be taken via Planar Binding for endless wishes, but intent doesn't change the fact that you can get wishes that way. The same is true for Genesis. Honestly, I'd assume the intent *was* to allow people to do whatever they wanted with stuff like that (otherwise what was the point of the "most any environment the caster can visualize bit?) but that they hadn't considered what happens when a player, as opposed to a DM, does it.


I will, however, agree that it is a very vague and badly written rule, and that you would not be in the wrong to interpret it that way, just as someone else is not in the wrong to interpret it in the opposite manner. Personally I choose to interpret rules in the way that does not completely break the game wherever possible, although sometimes even this isn't an option (damn you shape change!).

Ah, I don't bias my interpretation like that. Instead I say "here's what the rules do, and now here's how I'm going to change them to fit the power level of my game." For example, with Genesis, I'd just add in the line "Time traits are the same as normal for the material plane", leaving in the option of making the place positive dominant or whatever. If I allow such high level casters at all.

JaronK

[Artillery]

So what kind of increase in Tier would you get by giving this class 1/day free personal Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm).

As for not having requirements for feats it would be better if we do specific parts that do not need to be meet, namely Attribute scores and class features. BAB requirements and feat line requirement make sense. If you only have Greater Two-weapon fighting you would have your main attack, and another attack at -10.

Unless you just take Perfect Two-weapon fighting and be done with it.

Also we are going to give this class, evasion, improved evasion, mettle, and improved mettle right?

[Talakeal]

Ah, I don't bias my interpretation like that. Instead I say "here's what the rules do, and now here's how I'm going to change them to fit the power level of my game." For example, with Genesis, I'd just add in the line "Time traits are the same as normal for the material plane", leaving in the option of making the place positive dominant or whatever. If I allow such high level casters at all.

JaronK

I suppose interpretation is the wrong word. Let me restate:

My interpretation is that it is unclear whether or not time is included in the environment. I did not think of it, and I doubt the author did, but if someone did argue that environment includes time I would not tell them they were wrong.

My RULING however, when I am in a position of authority such as a DM or the moderator of a debate, is the one that does not break the game.



Also we are going to give this class, evasion, improved evasion, mettle, and improved mettle right?

I was going to mention that in my OP but the goal was to create a purely mundane character and most people consider evasion to be magical due to the rules not stating any caveats about not being able to use it when bound or trapped in an enclosed space.

[jywu98]

So what kind of increase in Tier would you get by giving this class 1/day free personal Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm).

As for not having requirements for feats it would be better if we do specific parts that do not need to be meet, namely Attribute scores and class features. BAB requirements and feat line requirement make sense. If you only have Greater Two-weapon fighting you would have your main attack, and another attack at -10.

Unless you just take Perfect Two-weapon fighting and be done with it.

Also we are going to give this class, evasion, improved evasion, mettle, and improved mettle right?
Even with all these abilities the class is at best, a tier 3, if you give them all the maneuvers too. To be tier 2 or above, you really need casting/manifesting. Heck, one could argue mundane characters are at best a tier 4, because ToB melees pretty much use refluffed magic.

[Artillery]

Even with all these abilities the class is at best, a tier 3, if you give them all the maneuvers too. To be tier 2 or above, you really need casting/manifesting. Heck, one could argue mundane characters are at best a tier 4, because ToB melees pretty much use refluffed magic.

Oh we are trying to make it above tier 3? But standard action solutions are boring as heck. The people I play with using tier 1 and 2 classes agree with that, so they avoid them so everyone else can still take part. Mystic Theurge, Warblade, Beguiler, and Factotum party.

[Anthrowhale]

immunity does not equate to Tier 1.

Alter Shape is far more versatile than mere immunity. Name a plausible problem, and there exist many ways to use Alter Shape to overcome it. So, I reiterate: Alter Shape is Tier 1 in a single ability.


Which is why Anthrowhale's thing isn't really interesting, because a T1/T2 chassis can pull off the exact same body swap trick, and has a better class chassis, so ends up being more powerful.

This is mostly correct, with a few caveats:
(a) Body swap isn't the only way to achieve Alter Shape.
(b) I don't know how to achieve the very high saves which complement Alter Shape derived immunities on a T1/T2 chassis.

[lunar2]

you want T2 with no magic (or pseudo magic) you get abilities like

Quickness (Ex): an X of y level or higher can take an extra turn each round per 10 points of initiative. these extra turns are taken at a cumulative -10 penalty to intiative. so, an X the rolls an intiative of 20 gets 3 turns per round, one at 20, one at 10, and one at 0.

that's not magic, that's just being extremely fast.

combine with fast movement (at least as much as a monk, but untyped bonus), and a means of mundane concealment

Afterimage (Ex): an X of y level and higher moves so quickly that the eye can't easily track them. in any round you move at least 10 feet, you gain concealment (20% miss chance). if you move your full speed, you gain total concealment (50% miss chance). true seeing and similar effects do not negate this concealment.

in fact, going more in this vein, i bet you could make a "dang fast" type character that breaches T2. they react fast, so they get bonuses to initiative. they can self correct before anyone notices their mistakes, so they get to act as if they rolled a 20 on all skill and ability checks (opening up diplomancy), they of course get skirmish damage, and the ability to take 10 foot steps. they get something similar to abrupt jaunt, allowing them to step as an immediate action.

i think it would be possible to break T2 with this kind of character. and again, simply being fast can't be accused of being magic with the serial numbers filed off.

[Carth]

Alter Shape is far more versatile than mere immunity. Name a plausible problem, and there exist many ways to use Alter Shape to overcome it. So, I reiterate: Alter Shape is Tier 1 in a single ability.



This is mostly correct, with a few caveats:
(a) Body swap isn't the only way to achieve Alter Shape.
(b) I don't know how to achieve the very high saves which complement Alter Shape derived immunities on a T1/T2 chassis.

Are there any methods that use class abilities, though? That'd be relevant because it theoretically saves WBL. If not then that just reinforces my point that your post would have more properly read that it can make anyone T1, rather than merely any mundane character. As it is as far as I can tell the only thing of note that your class build does is get you high saves through lots of multi classing, which isn't an argument for any one class being powerful, and isn't really an argument for a mundane being powerful either because having high saves doesn't have anything to do with being a mundane.

Getting high saves on a caster is easier than on a non-caster, triple persisting ruin delver's fortune (Spell Comp.) is an easy way to get a luck bonus to all saves equal to your charisma mod (also grants evasion). Because dumping physical stats is strictly optimal due to the existence of shapechange, at this level of optimization that means you can be venerable and split your remaining point buy points in wisdom and charisma too. Charisma is probably the easiest stat to boost through persisted spells, as there's a lot that give different types of bonuses, so that's good for at least a +10. Greater resistance lasts 24 hours out of the box and is good for +6. Figure ability mods of at least 10 for each, persisted necrotic empowerment, shapechanging into a chronotyryn, persisted bite of the werebear, and other things make that a conservative figure. Heroism adds another +2. Probably at least +4 in base saves, though will is likely to be much, much, higher obviously. Foresight adds +2 to reflex, necrotic empowerment adds +5 to fortitude.

Additionally, arcane disciple (destiny) gets you choose destiny, which is persistable and allows you to roll twice on all saves (and attack rolls, ability checks, and skill checks), and warp destiny, which allows you to reroll a failed save as an immediate action with an insight bonus equal to your caster level. So that's going to be around +35 to all saves out of the box, rolling twice on each, which probably reaches the 'good enough for anything that's not infinite' threshold. In the event a save does fail as an immediate action you can reroll with a +20 bonus, though.

None of those things required class dipping, conveniently, so you're still able to reap the far superior class features that spellcasting classes grant while still being just as indestructible. In fact, more indestructible, because based on your interpretation, it seems you're only willing to allow wish or miracle to kill that thing because of tarrasque regen, which means someone could just perpetually ready a counterspell against that with one of their sets of chronotyryn actions if they really wanted. Or set a contingency (via instant refuge) to plane shift them if someone were about to do that. 1 level of factotum and witch hunter would add plenty of gravy and still keep 9th level spellcasting if you want higher saves, or some (EX) saves for whatever reason. AMF doesn't really add anything based on your interpretation of tarrasque regeneration, though, so I don't think (EX) sources of saves are worthwhile in this case.

[SowZ]

Does anyone remember Xykon's speech on how past a certain point all you need is more force and no versatility can stop it? That's the deal with the infinite numbers guy. Still not tier one, but tier tow. Tier is about solving problems. The infinite numbers character can solve more problems, because there are far, far fewer creatures he couldn't kill. The infinite numbers guy could punch WAY above his weight class in CR, even higher than a Tier 1 usually can.

[Phelix-Mu]

you want T2 with no magic (or pseudo magic) you get abilities like

Quickness (Ex): an X of y level or higher can take an extra turn each round per 10 points of initiative. these extra turns are taken at a cumulative -10 penalty to intiative. so, an X the rolls an intiative of 20 gets 3 turns per round, one at 20, one at 10, and one at 0.

that's not magic, that's just being extremely fast.

combine with fast movement (at least as much as a monk, but untyped bonus), and a means of mundane concealment

Afterimage (Ex): an X of y level and higher moves so quickly that the eye can't easily track them. in any round you move at least 10 feet, you gain concealment (20% miss chance). if you move your full speed, you gain total concealment (50% miss chance). true seeing and similar effects do not negate this concealment.

in fact, going more in this vein, i bet you could make a "dang fast" type character that breaches T2. they react fast, so they get bonuses to initiative. they can self correct before anyone notices their mistakes, so they get to act as if they rolled a 20 on all skill and ability checks (opening up diplomancy), they of course get skirmish damage, and the ability to take 10 foot steps. they get something similar to abrupt jaunt, allowing them to step as an immediate action.

i think it would be possible to break T2 with this kind of character. and again, simply being fast can't be accused of being magic with the serial numbers filed off.

Hmm, so I can see a way into a series of higher-tier mundane classes. A speed-based one is a very good idea. I was going to make one premised on basing all rolls off of one stat, or with some kind of floating stat bonus that can adjust day to day (in an attempt to replicate the day-to-day versatility of spellcasters...this would be the one with the floating maneuvers and the floating bonus feats). There's probably room for one more class, even if we accept that some version of the "I'm tough enough to never die" portion of the thread also may constitute something viable (after all, what's the hurry with standard-solutions if you are immune to 99% of threats?).

Whether or not the classes break tier 2 is obviously open to debate. I think it's possible to generate mechanics that are good enough that non-magical solutions become viable. Can you teleport? No, but if you can run at 60mph forever across any terrain, then teleporting is faster, but breaks the plot only slightly more (since a character running at 60mph will most likely be able to negate the chance of encounters on the way to the destination).

Plane shift and flight are causing some difficulty, but I can probably emulate flight through a combo of Jumplomancy + adjust density, which would allow one to jump very high, then control one's falling to some extent, not unlike in some kung fu movies. I'd have to add in some custom skill usage for Jump and Tumble for the class, but that's not too hard, and with some kind of Brains over Brawn synergy and a scaling bonus to acrobatics (as might befit the speed-based prc), then I think flight-like behavior might be possible.

The other option that I've thought of is cohorts that enable movement modes. As long as the cohorts use non-magical methods, then this is fairly kosher, and there is obvious utility to things like wild cohort or dragon cohort (with some Su leniency on the latter).

Food for thought, anyway. I like magic, I really do, but I like options as well.

[Twilightwyrm]

you know what the cleric's answer to the rogue is? cloistered cleric with kobold and magic domain.

between the cleric's own spell list, and using magic items as a wizard of 1/2 his level, he does as well as a rogue's umd.

kobold domain gives him search and disable device as class skills, and the trapfinding class feature.

cloistered clerics get 6+int skill points per level.

so, i repeat.

a cleric can fight better than a fighter (with spell support), be a better rogue than a rogue (without much spell support), and do other stuff with his spells. all at the same time.

So what you are saying is: a very specific Kobold Cloistered Cleric setup can theoretically out trap find a rogue via use of magic items and some of their spells, therefore clerics in general are better than rogues at trap-finding? This seems logically flawed. I accept that any old cleric can, with adequate preparation of combinations of Divine Power, Righteous Might, etc. potentially outfight a fighter. Any old cleric cannot spontaneously turn into a cloistered cleric, start worshiping Kobolds and reallocate the skill points to start trap finding. So no, a cleric cannot be a better rogue than a rogue. A very specific race can make a specific type of cleric that can find and disable traps better than a rogue, assuming they set themselves up from the get go to do so, but barring exceptions proving the rule, a cleric cannot be a better rogue than a rogue.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292794

You don't need to be a Kobold to be a great rogue. Read that.

And you don't have to follow a deity, you know. Read her flavor and the info for that...

[jywu98]

So what you are saying is: a very specific Kobold Cloistered Cleric setup can theoretically out trap find a rogue via use of magic items and some of their spells, therefore clerics in general are better than rogues at trap-finding? This seems logically flawed. I accept that any old cleric can, with adequate preparation of combinations of Divine Power, Righteous Might, etc. potentially outfight a fighter. Any old cleric cannot spontaneously turn into a cloistered cleric, start worshiping Kobolds and reallocate the skill points to start trap finding. So no, a cleric cannot be a better rogue than a rogue. A very specific race can make a specific type of cleric that can find and disable traps better than a rogue, assuming they set themselves up from the get go to do so, but barring exceptions proving the rule, a cleric cannot be a better rogue than a rogue.

There's a reserve feat that allows you to summon an elemental. Use that to scout out and let it be cannon fodder for traps. Congrats, your rogue is now useless.
Oh, and he was talking about the Kobold Domain, not the race.

[JaronK]

Obvious mundane ways I can see into Tier 2, based on things you can already do in game (note that you have to still have other abilities, or else you're T4):

1) Crazy diplomacy abuse. Diplomancers can already make builds that fit the definition of Tier 2, usually with something like Marshal 1/Binder 1/Warlock 1/Bard X. Just play with that theme... Diplomacy checks as standard actions with crazy bonuses and enough languages to make use of that could get you pretty quickly into "one broken trick" areas. So a class that gave you the Binder's Diplomacy as standard action ability as an Ex ability combined with large bonuses to Diplomacy could get you there. That gives you strong allies and thus a wide variety of abilities.

2) Crazy combat tricks. There are ways for Warblades and a few others to get near infinite archery attacks, for example... similar Ex based "I hit and kill everything in the area whenever I want" can get you there. Not restricted versions (like "must be able to charge") but straight up "I just kill stuff".

3) Lucid Dreaming combined with number 1. The ability to go into anybody's dreams and convert them to your side is pretty insane.

4) Action economy abuse combined with other abilities. The Factotum's "screw it I go three times" thing can be quite nasty if you've got potent abilities to go along with it.

5) Ability to dominate with multiple attack types... not just targetting AC. For example, there are fear based characters that can Swift Action Intimidate all enemies nearby into Cowering... if you can do that and bypass fear immunity, you've got a brutal will save based attack. A character with Ex abilities that gave them endless powerful poisons combined with ways of bypassing immunity to poisons could have very strong Fort save based attacks. Trippers can target touch AC to screw people over. Some abilities allow you to hit the ground to knock down everybody near by on a failed Ref save. A combination of such available attacks on a mundane could give them seriously impressive abilities, especially combined with number 4. Imagine a character that opens the fight by charging one enemy and hitting their AC (pouncing for multiple hits), causing poison hits that are Fort based, who then uses a Swift action to intimidate to Cowering all enemies within 30', and then gets an extra standard action to make everyone Ref save or fall prone. Pretty impressive. That's easy encounter ending that's pretty hard to stop.

With all those and a bit more, I could see a mundane pushing Tier 1, especially if his diplomacy abilities could be combined with some ability to pull potential diplomacy targets closer to him (thus getting him the allies he needs when he needs it).

JaronK

[Twilightwyrm]

There's a reserve feat that allows you to summon an elemental. Use that to scout out and let it be cannon fodder for traps. Congrats, your rogue is now useless.
Oh, and he was talking about the Kobold Domain, not the race.

I know. But last I checked, you really need to be of a certain race to take that race's domain, barring DM fiat otherwise.
As for the elemental, I can think of any number of traps such a being would not set off, that you would end up walking directly into. For instance, most any mind effecting trap. Further, unless the trap requires a manual reset, you've only identified about where the trap is. You haven't actually disarmed or bypassed it. As for using it for scouting, it's fine if you don't mind the enemies also knowing you are there, and not getting a report back as to what attacked it. Otherwise, you'll be wanting someone to actually scout for that.

@Gavinfoxx: Unless I'm not remembering correctly, you are not technically allowed to take a racial domain unless you are of that race. If your DM hand waves it, as appears to have happened in your case, that's fine, but such instances are not typically considered when discussing the relative merits of a class.
Also, appreciating trap-finding/making/disabling is one thing. Worshiping a race that is almost universally bent on the genocide of your own race would typically require an explanation beyond "I worship trap making, and they happen to make traps" for any campaign I've been involved in. That would be like a Buddhist monk honoring Nobunaga for his appreciation of music.

[Answerer]

As for using it for scouting, it's fine if you don't mind the enemies also knowing you are there, and not getting a report back as to what attacked it. Otherwise, you'll be wanting someone to actually scout for that.
Earth elemental is one of the options. Those are pretty hard to notice when they're moving through the ground.

[Twilightwyrm]

Earth elemental is one of the options. Those are pretty hard to notice when they're moving through the ground.

Alright, they are moving through the ground. How are they seeing or hearing anything above them? Because last I checked they can glide through earth, not see or hear through it.

[Gavinfoxx]

That character has nothing to do with Kobolds, other than the fact that one of the deities she venerates (not worship) in her faith happens to be the deity of kobolds. She doesn't worship kobolds, hence the, um, reflavoring of the domain.

[Gavinfoxx]

The way anything else that is buried in earth can hear things?? Via sound and vibrations??

[TuggyNE]

Alright, they are moving through the ground. How are they seeing or hearing anything above them? Because last I checked they can glide through earth, not see or hear through it.

Using terrible RAW (lack of) wording to try to counter a tactic that's perceived as abusive is not the best idea. (An earth elemental logically should be able to navigate quite well within the earth; anything else is just silly.)

[Anthrowhale]

Are there any methods that use class abilities, though?


There is Illithid Savant 5/13 HD/ECL 20.

Your list of save bonuses is significant, but it doesn't look as high. You'd need to work things out carefully to convince.

I have no doubt that a T1 spellcaster with Alter Shape is generally more capable than a mundane with Alter Shape. But, a mundane with Alter Shape should definitely be considered T1.

[jywu98]

What is Alter Shape? Forgive my noob question.

[Carth]

There is Illithid Savant 5/13 HD/ECL 20.

Your list of save bonuses is significant, but it doesn't look as high. You'd need to work things out carefully to convince.

I have no doubt that a T1 spellcaster with Alter Shape is generally more capable than a mundane with Alter Shape. But, a mundane with Alter Shape should definitely be considered T1.

Ilithid savant is the answer to everything, though. :smallbiggrin:

Is there a reason to go higher? I mean, sure, big numbers are fun and all, but it's like people going overboard with a charge build, it's a waste of time pouring more resources into a stat that's already in overkill range. There's no difference between always save and always save+1.

You're right, a mundane with alter shape becomes T1 (or something), but what does that prove, exactly? You're not proving anything about the power of some sort of character archetype (caster, mundane, gish, etc.) or class. It just points out proteans are powerful, and that WBL can be used to access said power, therefore WBL is powerful. Which is true, but I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion. Similarly, even if the person saying that grabbing gate via incarnum feats were correct about that being possible, that doesn't prove anything about classes or archetypes. It just proves that feats which anyone can take are powerful, which isn't useful here, barring the existence of the full BAB d12 feat every level thing people were floating about that could get access to these things earlier.

[Talakeal]

1) Crazy diplomacy abuse. Diplomancers can already make builds that fit the definition of Tier 2, usually with something like Marshal 1/Binder 1/Warlock 1/Bard X. Just play with that theme... Diplomacy checks as standard actions with crazy bonuses and enough languages to make use of that could get you pretty quickly into "one broken trick" areas. So a class that gave you the Binder's Diplomacy as standard action ability as an Ex ability combined with large bonuses to Diplomacy could get you there. That gives you strong allies and thus a wide variety of abilities.
JaronK

I made this argument in a thread last week and was told that social advantages don't qualify for an increase in tier as it is technically someone else solving the problem for you rather than the charactger class itself.

[SowZ]

Obvious mundane ways I can see into Tier 2, based on things you can already do in game (note that you have to still have other abilities, or else you're T4):

1) Crazy diplomacy abuse. Diplomancers can already make builds that fit the definition of Tier 2, usually with something like Marshal 1/Binder 1/Warlock 1/Bard X.


Don't forget Artificers!



I made this argument in a thread last week and was told that social advantages don't qualify for an increase in tier as it is technically someone else solving the problem for you rather than the charactger class itself.

You may as well claim that being able to cast suggestion and dominate monster at will wouldn't change a character's tier. Or that the Thrallherds thrall ability doesn't change Tier. Or that leadership isn't a legitimate power boost.

[TuggyNE]

What is Alter Shape? Forgive my noob question.

The most interesting feature of this monstrosity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm).

[Pickford]

I like how you conveniently ignored the subsequent sentence.

Alacritous cogitation is 1/day and becomes a full-round action.
Uncanny forethought is also a full-round action at -2 ESL, and requires spell mastery meaning you burned 2 feats to do something badly.

Spontaneous Divination is good...but it's divination, that doesn't typically describe something you absolutely must know 'right now'. And it's a feat you could have used for something better. Insightful Divination springs to mind as a better choice.

I wouldn't classify full-round lower level spell actions as 'right now'.

And secondly: Ahenobarbi


Wasn't there a feat chain that gave 9th level casting? I think it was something like:

- Magical Training.
- Spell Focus (your choice) (prerequisite).
- Metamagic School Focus (your choice).
- Earth Sense (prereq).
- Heighten Spell.
- Earth Spell.

Now you can prepare 0-level spell from your chosen school in 0-level slot, heightened to level 1. If you cast it standing on the ground it's heightened to level 2. This qualifies you to take Extra Slot to get 1st level slot.

Cast 3r level spell using method from previous paragraph (applying it to 1st level slot) to get 2nd level slot, repeat until you get 9th level spells.

Now this requires a lot of feats (15 to get first 9th level slot) so most classes can't pull it off. But since this class would get 20 bonus eats it wouldn't be a problem.

That wouldn't work, the character is only ever casting the regular level of spell modified by meta-magic. That doesn't make the spells change their base level, which means the character never actually has access to higher levels of spells. (Magic missile is always a 1st level spell, even if it's acting as a 5th level spell).

[Anthrowhale]

Is there a reason to go higher?


In the ExFighter thread I started out thinking that +50 with Pride Domain was enough, but it was not, particularly for will. The end point that we reached appears necessary.



You're right, a mundane with alter shape becomes T1 (or something), but what does that prove, exactly?


It doesn't prove anything---it just answers the starting question of the thread:


Is it possible to have a high tier character without supernatural abilities? How about class features in general?


The answer is "yes".

[ahenobarbi]

And secondly: Ahenobarbi



That wouldn't work, the character is only ever casting the regular level of spell modified by meta-magic. That doesn't make the spells change their base level, which means the character never actually has access to higher levels of spells. (Magic missile is always a 1st level spell, even if it's acting as a 5th level spell).

Please read feats descriptions. Heighten actually increases spell level (and so does Earth Spell).

[Pickford]

Please read feats descriptions. Heighten actually increases spell level (and so does Earth Spell).

It's not actual spell level, it's effective spell level.

The distinction is that instead of 'just' using up higher spell slots the spell also benefits as if it were a higher level.

But just because you apply heighten magic to a magic missile once doesn't mean you now have "Heighten Magic Magic Missile" on your spell list. You still have Magic Missile and it remains a 1st level spell.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The answer is "yes".

I still disagree. Without supernatural abilities or spell-like abilities you're still out of luck. Extraordinary abilities and different forms alone can't account for the entire spectrum of spell-based offenses and defenses.

Further, you're not doing this without magic or supernatural abilities, as without those there is no way to access the Alter Form ability in the first place. A build that requires THIS:


Magic Jar won't do, because Alter Form is not an automatic ability.
Hence, Mind Switch is required. This is easy to achieve in an evil
way (Gate, Dominate, Energy Drain, Mind Switch). Achieving this in a
nonevil nonepic non-setting specific manner is substantially trickier.

(1) Hire a psionicist to creata a Custom Psicrown of Mind Switch and Astral Seed.
(2) Hire a cleric to cast Imbue with spell ability(Cure Light Wounds) on a hired wizard with caster level 20.
I'll assume the wizard has access to the following permanent magic items:
Orange Ioun stone
Ring of Arcane Might
Robe of Arcane Might[Transformation]
(3) Hire a psionicist to caster Psychic Reformation on the hired wizard giving feats:
Arcane thesis (Mental Pinnacle)
Heighten Spell
Earth Sense
Earth Spell
Snowcasting
Frozen Magic
Incarnum Spellshaping
(4) At T-1 week, have the hired wizard cast PAO(Symbiote) on you.
(5) At T-3 days, hire a Psionicist to Psychic reformation (assume supernatural ability) on you.
(6) At T-12 hours, Wizard drinks Domain Draught (Good).
(7) At T-12 hours, Wizard casts Create Magic Tatoo on self for +1 caster level.
(8) At T-7 hours, hired Druid drops a Frostfell spell on the primary location.
(9) At T-5 hours, a Wizard casts Channel the Mishtai, Greater for +1 caster level.
(10) At T-5 minutes, Wizard casts Cure Light Wounds on Self, triggering Karma Bead for +4 caster level
(11) At T-2 rounds, a hired bard casts Harmonic Chorus.
(12) At T-2 rounds, Wizard casts Mark of the Enlightened Soul.
(13) At T-0 rounds, Wizard casts Spell Enhancer with Swift action.
(14) At T-0 rounds, hired secondary wizard casts Mystic Surge targeting the Wizard.
(15) At T-0 rounds, Wizard gathers snow in hand (Move action)
(16) At T-0 rounds, Wizard casts Heightened to L9 Mental Pinnacle with heroes tears while standing on Frostfell ground targeting the Symbiote at caster level 45.
(17) PAO wears off, don Psicrown.
(18) At T+1 rounds, Wizard casts Gate, conjuring a Protean, and demanding a short term service.
(19) At T+1 rounds, UPD 20(Use dorje) Psicrown and execute a manifester level 45 Mind Switch.
(20) At T+2 rounds, Swap Psicrown to Protean (move action)
(21) At T+2 rounds, UPD 20(Use dorje) Psicrown and execute a manifester level 15 Astral Seed.
(22) At T+3 rounds, Return to own body (ending Mind switch)
(23) At T+22 rounds, Protean returns home.
(24) Hire a Psionicist to return wizards feats to normal via Psychic Reformation.
(25) Hire a Psionicist to reset your Assume Supernatural Ability feat.
(26) Die.
(27) Rebuild and inhabit a Protean body.
(28) Hire a Psionicist to Psychic Chirurgery regain lost level.

The difficult element here is achieving manifester level >=44 preEpic which I
haven't previously seen done. The specific bonuses we use are drawn
from the caster level boost list then converted into manifester level via Mental Pinnacle.

Domain draught, Good: +1 good spells
Heroes tears: +2 good spells
Orange Ioun Stone: +1
Ring of arcane Might: +1 (in effect)
Robe of arcane Might[Transmutation]: +1 transmutation spells [Competence]
Karma Bead from the strand of prayer Beads: +4 after casting a divine spell
Channel the Mishtai, Greater: +1 [insight]
Create Magic Tatoo: +1
Frostfell: +1 cold spells
Harmonic Chorus: +2 [morale]
Mystic Surge: +1
Spell enhancer: +2
Arcane thesis: +2
Earth Spell: +3 heightened, while standing on earth
Frozen Magic: +2 cold spells.

The spell is good via Mark of the Enlightened Soul and Cold via Snowcasting.

It is significantly easier to achieve caster level 45 if you go evil (Consumptive Field), go setting specific (Circle Magic, Node Magic), and/or use prestige classes (Archmage, Red Wizard). Even the hard approach
appears possible using WBL at ECL 10.
Is not really proof that you can make a non-magical, non-supernatural Tier 1 character. You haven't proved it's ability to be Tier 1 and have a solution to any given problem, nor is it possible without MULTIPLE magical and/or supernatural abilities.

The end result might be mundane if we consider Alter Form to be a non-supernatural ability (and there are a number of people who would consider at-will shapeshifting to not count as mundane enough to be considered mundane, despite it's Ex tag), but if it takes two dozen magical steps to accomplish it's as mundane as Pun-Pun getting all his crazy stuff and then giving himself the ability "Mundane (Ex): All Pun-Pun's abilities (spell-like, supernatural, and otherwise) are Extraordinary abilities."

At best, and giving this "mundane" character as much credit as I can (it is a cool build...it just doesn't prove what you really wanted to prove), you've demonstrated that Tier 1 characters are so absurdly broken that they can permanently overpower other characters as well as themselves.

Which, by the way, is not a good solution to the problem at hand. :smalltongue:

[Alienist]

Except that Genesis must always be cast in the Astral Plane, which does not have the same gravity as the PMP. So that ruling doesn't make any sense at all.

The fact is, Genesis was reprinted (unchanged) after Planar Traits were printed. It should have been changed (as Psionic Genesis was), but it wasn't. By RAW, Planar Traits can be influenced because they perfectly fit the definition of "environment" rather perfectly.

JaronK

It is really a terrible thing that you keep

(a) claiming your house-rule is RAW

(b) asserting that for the definition of Environment you can use whatever you want.

In fact a simple glance at Genesis itself shows that it provides the definition of environment:



The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain


Anything not on that list is not fair game BY RAW.

You seem to be using RAW in some strange and interesting ways, e.g. quoting a dictionary or encyclopedia. Do you also keep a piece of paper and a crayon handy while playing, and scribble new rules on it and then hold them over your head and scream "But its RAW!! You must obey it because it is written down!!"

[Answerer]

You do realize that "such as" introduces a list of examples, not an exhaustive list, right? RAW definitely does not limit the factors you can change to those listed.

[lunar2]

So what you are saying is: a very specific Kobold Cloistered Cleric setup can theoretically out trap find a rogue via use of magic items and some of their spells, therefore clerics in general are better than rogues at trap-finding? This seems logically flawed. I accept that any old cleric can, with adequate preparation of combinations of Divine Power, Righteous Might, etc. potentially outfight a fighter. Any old cleric cannot spontaneously turn into a cloistered cleric, start worshiping Kobolds and reallocate the skill points to start trap finding. So no, a cleric cannot be a better rogue than a rogue. A very specific race can make a specific type of cleric that can find and disable traps better than a rogue, assuming they set themselves up from the get go to do so, but barring exceptions proving the rule, a cleric cannot be a better rogue than a rogue.

there's nothing in the spell compendium (the source for racial domains) or the RotD web enhancement (the source for the kobold domain) that says you have to worship or be a member of a race to have access to that racial domain. just like you don't have to actually worship a deity at all (you could worship yourself, and pick whatever domains you want).

and no, the cleric need not be cloistered or use a single spell to match the rogue's trapfinding. search = 1 skill point per level. disable device = 1 skill point per level. cleric = 2 base skill points per level. spells are just needed to surpass the rogue (and find traps/summon monster/ etc. are general cleric spells)

@magic domain. i was just pointing out that while out-fighting the fighter and matching/exceeding the rogue's trapfinding, the cleric also has a cheapo UMD in the form of the magic domain.

[ahenobarbi]

It's not actual spell level, it's effective spell level.

The distinction is that instead of 'just' using up higher spell slots the spell also benefits as if it were a higher level.

But just because you apply heighten magic to a magic missile once doesn't mean you now have "Heighten Magic Magic Missile" on your spell list. You still have Magic Missile and it remains a 1st level spell.

Keep reading

All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

[Carth]

Alacritous cogitation is 1/day and becomes a full-round action.
Uncanny forethought is also a full-round action at -2 ESL, and requires spell mastery meaning you burned 2 feats to do something badly.

Spontaneous Divination is good...but it's divination, that doesn't typically describe something you absolutely must know 'right now'. And it's a feat you could have used for something better. Insightful Divination springs to mind as a better choice.

I wouldn't classify full-round lower level spell actions as 'right now'.


You sound like you're confusing a full round action casting time with a 1 round action casting time. You do know that spells cast as a full round action still go off that turn, right? Being able to cast any spell you know as a full round action, even at a -2 caster level is crazy powerful. You can disagree if you want, but don't be surprised that nobody is jumping on your bandwagon.


Mundane (Ex): All Pun-Pun's abilities (spell-like, supernatural, and otherwise) are Extraordinary abilities.[/I]"

At best, and giving this "mundane" character as much credit as I can (it is a cool build...it just doesn't prove what you really wanted to prove), you've demonstrated that Tier 1 characters are so absurdly broken that they can permanently overpower other characters as well as themselves.

Which, by the way, is not a good solution to the problem at hand. :smalltongue:

Pretty much this. I get that you love ExFighter Anthrowhale, but it's just not relevant in this thread. I leave the task of higher saves to someone else. As for higher saves, the 1 level dip in factotum and witch hunter would put all saves in the 50s, and if you eked out a charisma mod of 15 (if your character somehow does it then I'm just going to assume a T1 also could) they'd probably all hit 60, with warp destiny getting +20 situationally.

[Tvtyrant]

Lineage of Slime prc

Level 1:
Flesh of Slime=Gain ooze body.
+3 Con per level of LoS.
Spawn Oozling I: Throw a glob of flesh as an AoE that does 2d6 damage/reflex half. It expands instantly to create an Oozling. An Oozling is an animal from the Summon Nature's Ally line that has the Gelatinous Creature template applied to it. Spawn Oozling I can summon any creature from Summon Nature's Ally I or Summon Nature's Ally II. A Lineage of Slime can use this ability 1/level in Lineage of Slime.
Level 2:
Shape Self: Extraordinary ability to use Alter Self at will (actually morphing body.)
Spawn Oozling II: Throw a glob of flesh as an AoE that does 4d6 damage/reflex half. It expands instantly to create an Oozling. An Oozling is an animal from the Summon Nature's Ally line that has the Gelatinous Creature template applied to it. Spawn Oozling II can summon any creature from Summon Nature's Ally III or Summon Nature's Ally IV. A Lineage of Slime can use this ability 1/level in Lineage of Slime.
Level 3:
Morph Self: Polymorph at-will as an EX.
Spawn Oozling III: 6d6 damage, Summon Nature's Ally V and VI.
Level 4:
Slime Expansion: Change size as a full round action, doing acid damage to creature's in the the new space and pushing them out. Can change to any size.
Miasmic Form: Can transform temporarily into a cloud of acid, granting incorporeality and dealing 4d6 acid damage a turn to enemies inside the cloud.
Spawn Oozling IV: 8d6 damage, Summon Nature's Ally VII and VIII.
Level 5:
Spawn Oozling V: 10d6 damage, summons an Avatar of Jubilex (Miniature's Handbook.)

[jywu98]

It is really a terrible thing that you keep

(a) claiming your house-rule is RAW

(b) asserting that for the definition of Environment you can use whatever you want.

In fact a simple glance at Genesis itself shows that it provides the definition of environment:



Anything not on that list is not fair game BY RAW.

You seem to be using RAW in some strange and interesting ways, e.g. quoting a dictionary or encyclopedia. Do you also keep a piece of paper and a crayon handy while playing, and scribble new rules on it and then hold them over your head and scream "But its RAW!! You must obey it because it is written down!!"

You seem to be lacking eyes because it clearly says "such as" on there. Or do you not know what that phrase means? It just lists some examples. Oh wait, you might not know what "examples" mean either.
I am sick of making this argument. Ignore RAW if you want.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

You do realize that "such as" introduces a list of examples, not an exhaustive list, right? RAW definitely does not limit the factors you can change to those listed.

This. In fact, there's basically a RAW example.

From the section Aiming a Spell (taken from the SRD, but also in the PHB): "Most spells that affect an area have a particular shape, such as a cone, cylinder, line, or sphere."

But Unhallow has an area of "radius," Locate City has an area of "circle," and other spells have areas measured by adjacent squares, 5ft increments, and so forth.

Would you say the text "such as a cone, cylinder, line, or sphere" in this case means that any spell without one of those areas doesn't have an area?

Does the Blinded condition, which hinders all things dependent on vision ("such as reading and Spot checks") only actually hinder those two applications?

In short, "such as" pops up EVERYWHERE in the SRD. It's used to show some examples, and allow you to figure out what the other applications would be using logic and/or the rules. It's RAW.

[jywu98]

It's not actual spell level, it's effective spell level.

The distinction is that instead of 'just' using up higher spell slots the spell also benefits as if it were a higher level.

But just because you apply heighten magic to a magic missile once doesn't mean you now have "Heighten Magic Magic Missile" on your spell list. You still have Magic Missile and it remains a 1st level spell.

No, effective spell level, which is a completely different thing, is raised by Sanctum Spell. Both Heighten Spell and Earth Spell raise spell level.

[Talakeal]

This. In fact, there's basically a RAW example.

From the section Aiming a Spell (taken from the SRD, but also in the PHB): "Most spells that affect an area have a particular shape, such as a cone, cylinder, line, or sphere."

But Unhallow has an area of "radius," Locate City has an area of "circle," and other spells have areas measured by adjacent squares, 5ft increments, and so forth.

Would you say the text "such as a cone, cylinder, line, or sphere" in this case means that any spell without one of those areas doesn't have an area?

Does the Blinded condition, which hinders all things dependent on vision ("such as reading and Spot checks") only actually hinder those two applications?

In short, "such as" pops up EVERYWHERE in the SRD. It's used to show some examples, and allow you to figure out what the other applications would be using logic and/or the rules. It's RAW.

But the examples given for area spells are similar to those you will find in the game.

The argument for Genesis is that the examples are completely superfluous because you can do literally anything not explicitly forbidden by the spell do to the open ended nature of the word environment.

And by "RAW" you are correct, examples are meaningless. Examples are almost always useful for determining intent, but the prevalent opinion among the community is that knowing the author's intent is worthless when it comes to the operation of the rules.

[Pickford]

No, effective spell level, which is a completely different thing, is raised by Sanctum Spell. Both Heighten Spell and Earth Spell raise spell level.

You're right, those things don't change the spell slot required. However, meta-magic doesn't actually change underlying spell. You retain it in your spell book un-metamagicked at the standard spell level.

Indeed, none of the things listed make the spell innately a different level. And even if they did, that would not mean you can now cast spells of a higher level. (What you 'can' cast is spells of level X that can be modified to act as if they are spells of level Y).

So, in the example given for heighten spell, you aren't casting a 4th level hold person spell, but a 2nd level hold person enhanced by heighten spell metamagic into being a 4th level spell. If you can't cast 4th level spells, you can't enhance hold person to 4th level as you can't prepare spells of that level.

This is where a number of attempts to create infinite loops try to skip a step and pretend that metamagic or other feats somehow create a new different level spell in a characters spellbook...they do not.

edit: To carth:

You sound like you're confusing a full round action casting time with a 1 round action casting time. You do know that spells cast as a full round action still go off that turn, right? Being able to cast any spell you know as a full round action, even at a -2 caster level is crazy powerful. You can disagree if you want, but don't be surprised that nobody is jumping on your bandwagon.

No I'm saying if you have to cast it as a full-round spell you can't move (which may be important) and you can't use spells that might otherwise be useful as swift actions or immediate actions after having moved (say in response to an attack of opportunity) which vastly limits the 'on demand' nature of the abilities. I'm not saying it's not useful, to a degree.

[Anthrowhale]

Without supernatural abilities or spell-like abilities you're still out of luck.


Dismissing ExFighter is easy, as it definitely uses very significant and intricate aid from a wizard.

But to dismiss Alter Shape, you need to dismiss all possible methods for acquiring Alter Shape. And again, Illithid Savant could theoretically acquire Alter Shape without any supernatural or spell-like ability use.



You haven't proved it's ability to be Tier 1 and have a solution to any given problem


If you want to propose specific challenges for Alter Shape to overcome, that might be interesting. I still claim that it's Tier 1 in a can.


I leave the task of higher saves to someone else.

I expect a save of +50 is adequate in nearly all situations and have no doubt that a wizard-type could get there. The rather particular attack vector for going beyond this is something like a Tainted Scholar/Red Wizard.

[Carth]

And again, Illithid Savant could theoretically acquire Alter Shape without any supernatural or spell-like ability use.


People are liable to dismiss ilithid savant, but for other reasons. :smallbiggrin:

[Answerer]

Just because something is labeled Ex does not make it mundane. Neither an illithid nor a protean is a mundane creature by any stretch of the imagination.

[Lans]

So we should get what is and isn't mundane sorted out.

[Rubik]

Just because something is labeled Ex does not make it mundane. Neither an illithid nor a protean is a mundane creature by any stretch of the imagination.But there's technically no such thing as "mundane" past level 6 or so, since by that point everyone is superhuman, magical or no.

[lunar2]

But there's technically no such thing as "mundane" past level 6 or so, since by that point everyone is superhuman, magical or no.

this. however, i will propose a definition of mundane.

a mundane ability is one that, while possibly out of scale with what a normal, real world person can do, is of the same type of abilities that a normal real world person could have.

growing wings is not mundane. real people can't grow wings.

running 120 mph. is mundane. real people can run fast, if not that fast.

regeneration is not mundane. people can't grow back lost body parts.

lifting several tons and throwing it is mundane. people can lift heavy weights, just not that heavy.

so if real people could do a smaller scale version of the same thing, it is mundane.

[Answerer]

But there's technically no such thing as "mundane" past level 6 or so, since by that point everyone is superhuman, magical or no.
Eh, "superhuman" is not necessarily "supernatural." But there is no natural explanation for either Alter Shape or Illithid Savant. These are creatures with fantastic abilities not actually possible in the real world.

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.(emphasis mine)

Breaking the laws of physics is not a mundane thing. Surpassing human limits? Eh, fine.

But of course, this is extremely subjective. Ultimately 3.x is a terrible system for being mundane, and does not support it well at all. Even the really quite terrible Vow of Poverty gives you Supernatural bonuses to replace your magic items, as a nod to this.