Dwarven Dragon Born Sorcerer. (Yes I said Sorcerer)

[tricktroller]

So in one of the splat books that a group of mine uses there is a feat called stoneborn sorcery. It allows you as a dwarven bard or sorcerer to do all of your casting off of Con instead of Cha. The only limit it has is you can't cast enchantment spells ever. So I plan to make a dwarven Battle Sorcerer variant with Dragonborn thrown on as well.

Stats (rolled amazing!)

Str 16
Dex 14(was 16)
Con 22 (Woohoo 18!)
Int 14
Wis 15
Cha 12 (was 14)

Now in this group you are allowed to "sell" two points form a roll to pump a stat by one to a minimum of 10 and maximum of 18. However I like the stats as they are right now. Was thinking of dropping 2 each from int and cha to pump dex back to 16.

Now the Battle sorcerer loses one spell known per spell level and one per day per level but that's not really that big of a deal to me. I get a martial weapon prof, light armor prof, d8 hp, and cleric bab. I think that is a fair trade. Also with +6 hp per level I will probably have more hp than the fighter haha!

So the plan really is just to go sorcerer 7 abjurant champ 5 whatever else x(eldritch knight 8?)

I like the idea of a dwarf pulling the magic right from his blood(aka Con) and using his magic to help him sling his battleaxe around and destroy the enemies of Bahamut.

What do you guys think?

I have two feats so far no clue for anything else. Stoneborn Sorcery and Combat casting are required.

[rockdeworld]

Sounds like fun, except for the reduced spells/day. That's one of the extremely few things sorcerers almost have over wizards (the other being some uses of metamagic). I might suggest reading this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786).

[Flickerdart]

Now the Battle sorcerer loses one spell known per spell level and one per day per level but that's not really that big of a deal to me. I get a martial weapon prof, light armor prof, d8 hp, and cleric bab. I think that is a fair trade. Also with +6 hp per level I will probably have more hp than the fighter haha!

You'd really be much better off going standard Sorcerer than Battle Sorcerer. 7 levels in the class means you're getting 2 more BAB, a single martial weapon proficiency, a handful of HP, and proficiency with light armour that you won't be wearing anyway because you still have Arcane Spell Failure %. In return, you're giving up a spell known and a spell per day from every level forever. It's a terrible tradeoff.

[Namfuak]

In general OP, you would get better mileage out of Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/full spellcasting 7 (eldritch knight works, but is relatively weak since it has no class features and poor HD). You get 10% less arcane spell failure chance, which means you can wear a mithril chain shirt with no ASF, or a Feycraft or Githcraft Mithril Breastplate with no ASF. You'll still be pretty powerful as a sorcerer with mostly full spellcasting progression though.

[Marnath]

You'd really be much better off going standard Sorcerer than Battle Sorcerer. 7 levels in the class means you're getting 2 more BAB, a single martial weapon proficiency, a handful of HP, and proficiency with light armour that you won't be wearing anyway because you still have Arcane Spell Failure %. In return, you're giving up a spell known and a spell per day from every level forever. It's a terrible tradeoff.

Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) You don't take ASF. Although losing even more spells known is pretty bad, but depending on build you may not need too many spells.


Spellcasting

A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.

[Ramza00]

There is a dwarven substitution level in races of stone sorc 9 that adds your con modifier to your cha modifier for bonus spells

You can combine the dragonblooded substitution levels as well dragobblood sorc 7 adds 4 spells to your spell known

Earth dreamer is also nice, earth glide plus see through earth means you can glide through earth cast a spell and then hide again

[Flickerdart]

Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) You don't take ASF. Although losing even more spells known is pretty bad, but depending on build you may not need too many spells.
Ah, missed that part. Still, reducing any armour's ASF to 0 is just a matter of a few bits of gold, and you'll either want heavy armour anyway or with Abjurant Champion, no armour at all.

[Leon]

At most you want medium armour proficiency as Mithril Fullplate is the Win.

[Crasical]

Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) You don't take ASF. Although losing even more spells known is pretty bad, but depending on build you may not need too many spells.

Hmm. Doesn't that let them qualify for Battle Caster, and let them cast in Medium armor without penalty?

[Juntao112]

Casting off of Con gets really fun when you turn into a Shambling Mound and persist Thunderhead on yourself.

[Marnath]

Hmm. Doesn't that let them qualify for Battle Caster, and let them cast in Medium armor without penalty?

Yes, although you'd still be missing medium armor proficiency unless you picked it up somewhere else.

[Flickerdart]

At most you want medium armour proficiency as Mithril Fullplate is the Win.
All that proficiency does is remove the ACP penalty to your to-hit rolls...which doesn't matter if the ACP is 0.

[ericgrau]

The -1 spells known per level isn't terrible either since the minimum is 1. Bad, but not terrible. I wouldn't make the trade normally, but it sounds manageable. if you select a lot of melee touch spells or close range or 30 foot range spells I'd actually call the armor and hp benefits quite useful. And for an abjurant champion I'd say it is better than a regular sorcerer.

It takes a long long time before the extra 10,000 gp on mitril full plate couldn't be better spent on upgrading your existing armor. And even though you may sell it some day, it's not a big loss. I wouldn't go for medium armor proficiency until your level is in the teens. And by then you might even manage the 20 dex with magic items to grab mithril breastplate and skip the need for medium armor altogether.

[tricktroller]

Thank you all for so many posts! I have a few changes that I have made to him in order to be more and less cheese all around.

He will mostly be a buff caster, and I will explain why later.

He will no longer be a dragonborn.

He will take the flaw vulnerable for the feat enspell familiar.

His feats are now going to be

Flaw: Enspell Familiar (share spells now works at 1 mile rather than 5 feet)
1st: Stoneborn Sorcery
3rd COmbat Casting
6th Enlarge Familiar (any familiars you have increase by one size category)
9th Improved Familiar from CW getting a howler
12th: Extra Familiar
15th Extra Familiar
18th: Extra Familiar

So with the feat extra familiar you get any benefits form other familiar feats. So at 20th level I will have 4 huge howlers with +12 natural armor +8 str +4 con -2 Dex -1 to hit and AC from size.

Each of them will be sharing any of my spells as long as they stay within a mile of me. I polymorph into an animal, cast animal growth now running with 4 gargantuan howlers, cast bite of the werebear +awesome to ststas, and greater blink. Get ready for the howler pack.

What do you guys think? Any suggestions?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Familiar shemangians are when I love battle sorcerer the most. Having a large number of familiars is excessive though. Tip: the one time I have stalwart battle sorcerer is when I am doing cool familiar stuff. Your spells take a hit, but your average ho is per a barbarian if your con.

Edit: where is Enlarge familiar from? Also, be wary. Make sure your DM permits flaws ahead.of time.

[Peelee]

With the one spell known per spell level lost, does it make a minimum of 1, or does it not have a bottom cap? If there's no safety net, you'll be getting any new spells a full level later, which would mean, for instance, you could cast a 5th-level spell at level 11, while a standard Sorcerer could cast that same spell at level 10, and a Wizard at level 9. Sorcs are already gimped enough to try to cover their spontaneous casting. Battle sorc just isn't worth it, from my point of view (which, of course, may not be how you'd want to run it). Just keep in mind, especially if there's a Wizard in your party, you'll feel somewhat underpowered on the magical front, as he'd always be a full spell level above you.

[ZamielVanWeber]

There is a minimum. Battle Sorcerer is extremely popular in my group. You lose a little more flexibility, but the massive boost to stats works out well. Battle Specs are not meant to be the magical front, so being slightly behind the wizard is okay.

[tricktroller]

(Enlarge familiar is from the AEG mongoose feat book)

Really I doubt he will ever get past 12th level so at most he would probably have a pair of huge howlers running around with him.

Yeah this guy isn't so much a caster as a big bag o buffs. His first spell at every level will probably be a saving throw spell so now we come to the second part. What spells should I take?

[tricktroller]

I want to make him a stalwart battle sorcerer as well I think. +7 hp per level form con and that are pretty awesome. I could take another flaw and get improved toughness too maybe.....

[TopCheese]

I want to take the OP build (dwarven dragonborn con sorcerer) and add in some cowbell totemist and go soul caster...

Still Spell + Garillon Arms + Whichever soulmeld gives me fire immunity/fast healing or whatever + Wormtail Belt or whatever one gives me natural armor...

Con > Str > Cha = Dex > Int = Wis

The thought of a dragon dwarf grappling enemies and then still spelling fireballs or other spells by targeting "himself" would be fricken awesome...

[tricktroller]

That would be fun but this is really more of a buffer sword slinger.

[TopCheese]

Dwarf + Dragonborn = Dragon with a beard?

Hmm that wigs me out a bit... Reptiles with facial hair.. Lots of facial hair...

[Zubrowka74]

Dwarf + Dragonborn = Dragon with a beard?

Hmm that wigs me out a bit... Reptiles with facial hair.. Lots of facial hair...

Oriental dragons have beards.

[Flickerdart]

Dwarf + Dragonborn = Dragon with a beard?

Hmm that wigs me out a bit... Reptiles with facial hair.. Lots of facial hair...
There's a spell in SpC that lets you grow a magical beard, so not only reptiles can have beards in D&D, but also oozes (living spells).

[Vaz]

Isn't there an Alternate Class Feature for a Dwarf Sorcerer to gain Casting off a different stat in Races of Stone or something, saving the need for a) a Feat, and b) a 3rd party book?

[Flickerdart]

Isn't there an Alternate Class Feature for a Dwarf Sorcerer to gain Casting off a different stat in Races of Stone or something, saving the need for a) a Feat, and b) a 3rd party book?
Not quite - it adds Con mod to Cha score to determine bonus spells per day.

[tricktroller]

hehe so maybe I'll take that and double my con for purposes of spells per day. Pretty lenient DM.

[Zubrowka74]

Is there a way in PF to build a CON-based Sorc like this ?

[tricktroller]

Probably not unless your dm allows 3.5 books from 3rd party sources.

[Flickerdart]

hehe so maybe I'll take that and double my con for purposes of spells per day. Pretty lenient DM.
No, no. It adds Con MOD to Cha SCORE. So a Dwarf Sorcerer with 18 Charisma and 18 Constitution that has that sub level would be considered to have a Charisma of 22 for the purposes of bonus spells per day.

[tricktroller]

Ah gotcha well still at level 9 I should have at least a 22-26 con so then an additional 6- 8 for bonus spells so a 28 or 34. That's a nice chunk of bonus spells. If I kept going dragonborn it would be even bigger.

[tricktroller]

Can anyone think of any way of leveling so that I can take 2 levels in deep warden without retarding my spell casting even more?

[rockdeworld]

Can anyone think of any way of leveling so that I can take 2 levels in deep warden without retarding my spell casting even more?
There isn't one. Deepwarden doesn't have spellcasting, and there isn't a way to give classes spellcasting that don't have it. You could try fast-advancing your spellcasting if you were a wizard with Ultimate Magus and Alacritous Cogitation, but that's about it. Besides which, that's a lot of hoops to jump through for Con to AC.

[tricktroller]

Just trying to make my Con go even farther than it already was. Con to attack and damage con to ac and con to all skills and I can pretty much just play a big ball of Con lol.

Anyone have any suggestions for other maxing out of con?

[tricktroller]

Bump for Infamy!

[Zubrowka74]

Probably not unless your dm allows 3.5 books from 3rd party sources.

Ha! Found the Empyreal lineage which replaces CHA with WIS! Ok, this ain't CON but still, it allows dwarven sorcerors to work, somewhat. You need to take the Wildblooded archetype and, if you want perks outside the lineage, crossblooded.

[ericgrau]

If you have a swarm of minions the spells to get are haste and mass bear's endurance or mass bull's strength. Your party will like you too. Polymorph is also a good choice, especially on outsider followers like howlers.

[MirddinEmris]

Dream Dwarf take penalty to Dex instead of Cha (it's in the Races of the Stone). Also, as Battle Sorc gets Intimidate instead of Bluff, you could think about maxing it and taking Imperious Command (DotU) + Fearsome Armor (DotU) + Never Outnumbered skill trick (CS), so it's move to demoralize and standard to cast/breath. Also, instead of Familiars you could take Breath feats from Draconomicon (make your breath conus shaped, for example, or quicken it), Entangled Exhalation from RotDr and spells to augment your breath (Stunning Breath is a good one).

Battle Sorc isn't so bad especially for a Abjurant Champion, he gets proficiency which otherwise can be bought for a feat or class levels, and can enter earlier without multiclassing.

P.S. Sorry, didn't see the post where you tell, that you will no longer be a dragonborn, which makes my advices pointless

[tricktroller]

If you have a swarm of minions the spells to get are haste and mass bear's endurance or mass bull's strength. Your party will like you too. Polymorph is also a good choice, especially on outsider followers like howlers.

My howlers share spells with me within 1 mile. I can use a 2nd level spell to bump them and myself on any of those spells. I also intend to cast bite of the werebear on myself so all of us have +stupid strength.

@Zubrowka74 why do I need this? I already have a feat that changes my casting stat to Con. I appreciate the help though.

@MirddinEmris thanks for the advice but yeah I decided I wouldn't totally cheese dong it. Then again the DM plays a mix of 3.0 and 3.5 and is going to allow me to take a toad for +2 con like 3.0 did.

[subject42]

There's a spell in SpC that lets you grow a magical beard, so not only reptiles can have beards in D&D, but also oozes (living spells).

This is a little bit of a derail, but how hard would it be to get Silverbeard to target an area so it could be made into a living spell?

[Zubrowka74]

@Zubrowka74 why do I need this? I already have a feat that changes my casting stat to Con. I appreciate the help though.

Ah, sorry, the thread got me thinking ans I just asked if there was something similar in PF. I answered my own question, sort of.

[Venusaur]

Is there a way in PF to build a CON-based Sorc like this ?

There is a Witch archetype that lets an orc witch cast from CON, if that helps.

[tricktroller]

right on.

Can anyone think of anything else for this character?