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View Full Version : Exalted and how I feel about it.



Doomboy911
2013-03-09, 02:59 AM
Right so I'm in the proccess of doing a superhero campaign that is going great. The two veterans of my group have suddenly wanted to play exalted and are convincing the rest of the party that it's the way to go they were plenty cordial about it but we all know what being cordial can do (A series of Unfortunate Events: The End) Now the plot the two veterans had was about this book created by this crazy stupid battle in the future that broke time. My response they want to stop this conflict in the future fine but if a book messes with time by all means is it going to mess with space which means all other universes and all other possibilities are either working for or against. In the end as they're so busy killing each other trying to save their own day they're going to understand that this big stupid battle they're all trying to stop is being caused by them trying to stop it. The only way to win is to give up. The coup de grace they've done this time and time again each and every failure they've had led to them having to repeat their existence again the only difference being those who succeed are left out of the loop until all universals have found their own end.

When the dm wants to play superheroes don't bring any dang exalted to his table especially when he love him some quantum mechanics.

What do you all think?

AuraTwilight
2013-03-09, 03:44 AM
What does any of this have to do with Exalted?

TheCountAlucard
2013-03-09, 10:08 AM
I play Exalted, and I have no idea what you are getting on about. Please, please clarify.

Edit: I think it looks like the plot is about the Broken-Winged Crane, except that you added the proviso that it also warps space. Am I right?

Doomboy911
2013-03-09, 11:23 AM
Well hmm I'll get into more detail and change the subject a bit. I'm not to big a fan of exalted it's a game of absolutes and allows absolutely no wiggle room. Yu-shan can't be penetrated the incarnate can't be touched. The two veterans who want me to run this exalted campaign make me feel as though I'm being controlled. I had my plots in mind concerning deathknights and the games of divinity but instead they'd rather deal with these time altering books that foretell the end of the world. Running things so it also affects space and they have to fight copies of themselves I'm doing what I'm after changing the game so I can do what I think should happen every event of exalted is predetermined. I can't say hey this primordial is going to do this thing they're all trapped and if one gets out it's time to focus on that and what these freed primordials would do is determined. There's nowhere I as the storyteller can have control. Maybe I'm exxagerating or wrong. Just a thought.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-03-09, 11:36 AM
Then, err... tell them that while you wouldn't mind running Exalted if everyone agrees, you're not interested in that part of the lore, but that if they really want it you'd be happy to let one of them take a turn behind the screen?

TheCountAlucard
2013-03-09, 11:43 AM
Also, the Broken-Winged Crane doesn't have any apocalyptic powers - it's just a dangerous thing, akin to the Necronomicon. That it is POSITED to have traveled back in time is a curiosity of the setting, no more, no less.

kamikasei
2013-03-09, 02:10 PM
Firstly: if some of your players want to try a particular game that you don't want to run, tell them you don't want to run it. Don't say "sure, we can play that, but I'm going to alter it so it won't be fun for you". That's passive-aggressive and obnoxious. If I were one of your players, whether one of the ones pulling for Exalted or not, such behaviour on the part of my GM would make me a good deal less likely to return to that table.

Secondly: I strongly recommend you take a little more care in your writing when posting. The above is very stream-of-consciousness, verging on incoherent. If you want people to be able to understand what you're saying to them, you have a responsibility to express yourself clearly. If you don't want that... then it's more than a little rude of you to waste our time so you can vent.

Doomboy911
2013-03-09, 06:29 PM
Firstly: if some of your players want to try a particular game that you don't want to run, tell them you don't want to run it. Don't say "sure, we can play that, but I'm going to alter it so it won't be fun for you". That's passive-aggressive and obnoxious. If I were one of your players, whether one of the ones pulling for Exalted or not, such behaviour on the part of my GM would make me a good deal less likely to return to that table.

Secondly: I strongly recommend you take a little more care in your writing when posting. The above is very stream-of-consciousness, verging on incoherent. If you want people to be able to understand what you're saying to them, you have a responsibility to express yourself clearly. If you don't want that... then it's more than a little rude of you to waste our time so you can vent.

Fair enough on both accounts. Exalted simply doesn't feel like much of a playable game. The main appeal seems to be that you're this all powerful being but the second you run into a threat you're informed that you are in fact not that great. I mean exalted just feels like a game filled with pun puns/

Tavar
2013-03-09, 08:48 PM
Fair enough on both accounts. Exalted simply doesn't feel like much of a playable game. The main appeal seems to be that you're this all powerful being but the second you run into a threat you're informed that you are in fact not that great. I mean exalted just feels like a game filled with pun puns/

Have you read the books/looked into the abilities of the Exalted?

This is very much not the case, even with the extremely broken mechanics of 2ed.

Doomboy911
2013-03-09, 11:34 PM
Well I'm currently reading it and all I've heard is that they can go months on end without eating or drinking or sleeping that they can juggle mountains if pressed.

ArcturusV
2013-03-09, 11:47 PM
Reminds me a bit in the DM advice written in the Dragonball Z RPG book.

"Can your players fly? Well put something underground. Can they punch through a mountain? Can they, or will they, punch through their sister? Can they shrug off a sword blow? What about electrical shock?"

Lord Raziere
2013-03-09, 11:59 PM
Reminds me a bit in the DM advice written in the Dragonball Z RPG book.

"Can your players fly? Well put something underground. Can they punch through a mountain? Can they, or will they, punch through their sister? Can they shrug off a sword blow? What about electrical shock?"

Exalted: *punches through the ground until they get the thing like no problem, super-persuades their sister to step aside, and shrugs off the electrical shock just like they shrugged off the sword blow*

all of this? normal days work for the average Solar.

Doomboy911
2013-03-10, 12:45 AM
Or as I told my friends they could juggle a mountain than eat the mountain and than eat tacos than juggle them without any internal issues.

Tavar
2013-03-10, 02:58 AM
Well I'm currently reading it and all I've heard is that they can go months on end without eating or drinking or sleeping that they can juggle mountains if pressed.

A 2500 ring can essentially do the eating and sleeping part for end characters, so that's a bar low enough a roomba could get over it. As for the mountain thing, not really. Some very specialiazed builds could maybe do it, but Exalted generally do not have that amount of raw strength.

ArcturusV
2013-03-10, 03:06 AM
The particulars might not apply. But the spirit of it does. When you have a character that effectively can do whatever the hell they want... say like DC's Superman (Especially back in the day when he'd get new superpowers just for the hell of it), you just get creative with the antagonists. You play up their morality, or backstory elements as weaknesses. You challenge them to an encounter where their Go To powers don't really apply, if they are someone who has Immunity: Everything I Could Think of When I Wrote this Down, you hit them with something they didn't think of, even if it sounds weird like a weapon made of cheese, or something like a gamma ray burst from a star.

Though I do share the pain that it can be frustrating to constantly have to deal with campaigns based off those, and DM things in such a way that players will rightly feel they are being "punished" for their RPing and backstory because you use everything they put out there against them.

Doomboy911
2013-03-10, 11:04 AM
Yeah to challenge these guys is a massive pain since I don't know anything about the setting they suggested I use the villains the game has in place (they really don't seem that interesting.) while I wanted to have a deathknight thing acting as a slumlord using demense and manse to her advantage she'd be doing the right thing while being manipulated by others who simply want what's best for them. They don;t want that they want something more epic. I thought about perhaps dealing with the games of divinity also existing on creation and them being sought after to control the incarnate by threatening to destroy the game. But no apparently the games of divinity are just a narrative device to say why the incarnate don't just click their heels and make the world better. (Honestly how stupid is that the unconquered sun can't step away from the board for ten seconds to fix the universe.)

Rhynn
2013-03-10, 11:45 AM
if they are someone who has Immunity: Everything I Could Think of When I Wrote this Down, you hit them with something they didn't think of, even if it sounds weird like a weapon made of cheese, or something like a gamma ray burst from a star.

That one's even older than literature.

Bring my mistletoe darts!

Grod_The_Giant
2013-03-10, 12:04 PM
Sure, Exalts can do ridiculously powerful things. They're fantasy super-heroes. But it's worth remembering... so can their opponents. Mortals aren't meant to be opponents, they're meant to be scenery. Exalts fight gods and other Exalts. They don't quest to save a village from bandits or overthrow an evil king, they quest to save Creation from being unmade or to overthrow the gods.

tl;dr: It's a question of scale. If you're having trouble challenging Exalts, you need bigger threats.

EDIT: Your touchstones are Hercules and Thor, not Conan and Gandalf.

(Also, as Tavar said, the power isn't that silly. The weirdest thing I saw when I played was a preponderance of "perfect attack!" "perfect dodge!")

Hiro Protagonest
2013-03-10, 02:36 PM
This seems to be less a matter of having problems with Exalted, and more about being rushed into running a game you know very little about with complex mechanics and a massive setting, while the players who wanted to play this game in the first place are telling you to run this game about a very weird artifact that they apparently misread the cryptic page they're given on it, because it doesn't actually time-travel and doesn't actually cause the apocalypse.

jindra34
2013-03-10, 03:04 PM
This seems to be less a matter of having problems with Exalted, and more about being rushed into running a game you know very little about with complex mechanics and a massive setting, while the players who wanted to play this game in the first place are telling you to run this game about a very weird artifact that they apparently misread the cryptic page they're given on it, because it doesn't actually time-travel and doesn't actually cause the apocalypse.
Well the Broken-Winged Crane Books did kinda go backwards in time (the original complete book was published after the Solars were released in the Second Age but the book (in incomplete form) started showing up during well before the Solars were originally overthrown). And while it does lead toward BAD THINGS HAPPENING, the only stated effects of it (from one of the Infernal Books IIRC) is that it makes it very easy for Yozi to tempt people with power and thereby gain puppets in Creation.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-03-10, 03:30 PM
Well the Broken-Winged Crane Books did kinda go backwards in time (the original complete book was published after the Solars were released in the Second Age but the book (in incomplete form) started showing up during well before the Solars were originally overthrown). And while it does lead toward BAD THINGS HAPPENING, the only stated effects of it (from one of the Infernal Books IIRC) is that it makes it very easy for Yozi to tempt people with power and thereby gain puppets in Creation.
I thought the impossibility of time travel was one of the fundamental rules of Exalted?

jindra34
2013-03-10, 03:37 PM
I thought the impossibility of time travel was one of the fundamental rules of Exalted?

The book isn't exactly time-traveling though, its creation caused a near-infinite number of imperfect and conflicting copies to be created in the past. Goofiness indeed. And also no time traveling is closer to a rule of Creation than of the Exalted world as a whole (given that the Wild doesn't even have a fixed rate of flow of time).

Tavar
2013-03-10, 03:40 PM
No time travel is more a subsection of a general rule of no takebacks. Your actions have consequences, so if you kill someone they're dead. If you make an action, you can't go back and fix it.

HerrTenko
2013-03-10, 04:55 PM
I'll have to agree with Jade Dragon here. Maybe put a stop to the thing, talk with your players, and tell them you need more time to prepare the campaign.

Also, it seems like they are imposing their own headcanon on you which, combined with your lack of time to read up on the setting, might have given you some weird ideas. That is entirely understandable, and the best way to fix this is to tell them to hold it, research Exalted's lore a bit by yourself, make your own assumptions and basically ignore their headcanon where it doesn't suit you. Craft your own stories, and keep in mind while doing it that your players are expected to jump in and change the course of history, because that is what Exalts do.

The feeling that everything is locked in place in Exalted is actually an illusion. Most books are filled to the brim with small details, plot hooks and subtle (or less subtle hints), but when it comes to the table it all depends on what you as an ST and your players want. Ignore canon all you want as long as it stays coherent with your own game. Or throw coherence out the window if you want! I mean the Wyld certainly allows you to pull a few doozies.

Basically, Exalted is a game about normal-yet-somewhat-heroic mortals given Phenomenal Cosmic Power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=breF23LFDV4) and free license to do as they damn please with them. The concept of "Heroic" being more akin to the old greek concept of someone accomplishing great deeds, not necessarily the nice guy that saves the day. Every bit of canon metaplot the book gives must be considered as a tower of glass that your players are expected to crash in some way, because they have the drive and the power to do so.

Which brings me to my last advice : while I like the premise of your plot, I find the way to resolve this crisis to be somewhat iffy. The main reason being that having a single possible way to solve a problem is kind of contrary to the spirit of Exalted as I understand it. The second being that it entails giving up which is really the only option an Exalted character probably won't ever consider.
Lunars will temporarily retreat, lick their wounds, adapt to the challenge and get back to business. Sidereals will use the full extent of their bureaucratic advantages over fate, or maybe punch the insurmountable problem into an advantage. Solars will look at the insurmountable problem, smirk, and punch it in the face so hard it shatters because they're just that good. Here's what I'm getting at : you should really start preparing for the moment your Solar players understand the situation fully, realise they're supposed to give up, and then proceed to promptly refuse and resolve the situation somehow anyway. :smallbiggrin:

Mewtarthio
2013-03-11, 02:51 AM
Yeah to challenge these guys is a massive pain since I don't know anything about the setting they suggested I use the villains the game has in place (they really don't seem that interesting.) while I wanted to have a deathknight thing acting as a slumlord using demense and manse to her advantage she'd be doing the right thing while being manipulated by others who simply want what's best for them. They don;t want that they want something more epic. I thought about perhaps dealing with the games of divinity also existing on creation and them being sought after to control the incarnate by threatening to destroy the game. But no apparently the games of divinity are just a narrative device to say why the incarnate don't just click their heels and make the world better. (Honestly how stupid is that the unconquered sun can't step away from the board for ten seconds to fix the universe.)

Wait, so you're saying that you, the GM, introduced an element into your setting, and the players told you that it didn't belong in there?

Why aren't they running this game themselves?

Closet_Skeleton
2013-03-11, 10:24 AM
Why aren't they running this game themselves?

Yup.

If you want a campaign done in a certain way, GM it yourself. If you want to be a player sit down and shut up.

NichG
2013-03-11, 11:00 AM
Running anything where you're unwilling to change the setting or where your players know more about the setting than you do (in an absolute, 'run it this way or else' sense) is extremely crippling to the DM. You lose the ability to surprise your players, and you have to deal with players backseat-DMing.

You don't like the absolutes of Exalted? Run a game where the PCs break them by accident and everyone wants to find out how. You can't get into Yu-shan, but one of the PCs finds himself there after getting punched through one too many walls. How is he there? Is it because he's just that awesome, or because the Sidereals are up to something, or is Yu-shan's protection crumbling and because of bureaucracy no one has gotten around to telling the Unconquered about it?

Don't like the game making everyone turn into omnipotent wastes of space because they're too busy playing a hand of cosmic poker? Make the game actually be the manipulation of fate and mortal activities. Each playing piece is a tribe, a city, and organization, etc, and if Sol Invictus steps away from the board that means he's letting things go to crap, rather than the reverse.

The best way to do this, given that your players are expecting something else, is to turn their expectation into a strength. If the players say 'you can't do that, its not how Exalted works!' say 'you're right, and your characters realize that and should be freaking out about now'. Be flexible, break expectations and then explain them, and listen for things your players suggest and secretly integrate the things that you can use while discarding the things that are going to lessen the game.

Hiro Protagonest
2013-03-11, 02:54 PM
You don't like the absolutes of Exalted? Run a game where the PCs break them by accident and everyone wants to find out how. You can't get into Yu-shan, but one of the PCs finds himself there after getting punched through one too many walls. How is he there? Is it because he's just that awesome, or because the Sidereals are up to something, or is Yu-shan's protection crumbling and because of bureaucracy no one has gotten around to telling the Unconquered about it?
It's called Calibration. Or maybe a Solar Circle teleport spell.

Don't like the game making everyone turn into omnipotent wastes of space because they're too busy playing a hand of cosmic poker? Make the game actually be the manipulation of fate and mortal activities. Each playing piece is a tribe, a city, and organization, etc, and if Sol Invictus steps away from the board that means he's letting things go to crap, rather than the reverse.

This doesn't make any sense. The slave trade is massive, the fair folk run wild, and Creation is currently the battlegrounds for a power struggle between every superpower in the world besides the Incarnae and the Jadeborn. Unless Luna's trolling everyone, this doesn't make sense.

HerrTenko
2013-03-11, 03:52 PM
Since we're talking about justifying the Games of Divinity's hold on the Incarnae, I for one like the idea that the Games are such a beautiful, awesome and terrific thing playing them balances all of the horror in Creation. They cannot stop playing the Games because not playing them would be the worst thing the world could ever know.

I like this idea because it is not entirely rationnal, and more than a little strange.

Jerthanis
2013-03-11, 06:43 PM
Or as I told my friends they could juggle a mountain than eat the mountain and than eat tacos than juggle them without any internal issues.

Only if they devoted months to researching the way to use their magic to cast the "Eat a mountain" spell, then the "Have no indigestion" spell, then used both magic spells to eat a mountain and have no indigestion. Exalts are perfectly human (with a few minor benefits like faster natural healing and fast clotting blood and so on) until they use magic to become superhuman.

Personally, one of my biggest problems with Exalted is that it's so Fantasy Kitchen Sink that it struggles with a unified vision if you incorporate too many elements of the setting at once or put too much spacial area in danger.

But then it gives you so much power that the stakes beg to be put at the level where these incompatible elements are forced to merge.

But really, the personal power you're granted isn't that much more than you'd have in a mid to high level D&D game. Roughly speaking you start somewhere between level 9 and 11 in D&D terms and progress to somewhere between level 13 and 15 by the end of a normal length game. (Normal in this case defined in this case as 10-15 sessions, technically you can play for years and get to essentially a D&D level 30+ level, but you progress linearly, so it'll be QUITE some time before you're there.)


Wait, so you're saying that you, the GM, introduced an element into your setting, and the players told you that it didn't belong in there?

Why aren't they running this game themselves?

Well... in defense of players vetoing an element introduced into a setting... I once played in a brief Exalted game that was going to be about trying to kill all the gods in order to free humanity from their rule and allow humanity free will.

That... isn't how gods work in Exalted. Gods control things, yes, and in a sense they do rule the world, but at its core this idea of a plot represents a misunderstanding of the animism that grounds the metaphysics of Exalted. As players, to hear that the game we're about to play is an Exalted game where the task is to kill all the gods is like saying you're going to be in a game about a realistic space exploration game in which you will be required to take the Swim skill because you need to swim from planet to planet. It's just not how that type of game works on a fundamental level.

In THIS case, the violation isn't so bad... the ability to destroy the games as a means of coercing power over the Incarnae seems like an interesting plot actually. I'm not even really clear over what their objection to it IS.

But I will defend the conceptual right of players to veto a GM in an established setting if the violation is egregious enough.

Mewtarthio
2013-03-11, 08:19 PM
This doesn't make any sense. The slave trade is massive, the fair folk run wild, and Creation is currently the battlegrounds for a power struggle between every superpower in the world besides the Incarnae and the Jadeborn. Unless Luna's trolling everyone, this doesn't make sense.

What makes you think that playing the Games of Divinity makes things better for humanity? :smallamused: Hey, it's clearly a competitive game, after all...

"I play Reclamation Imminent! It lets me take your Scarlet Empress from the field and add her to my hand!"
"I knew you were going to do that."
"Whatever. Anyway, I'll follow that up by having my Kimberian Akuma attack your Jade Prison! Now I can take all the Solar Exaltations from the Graveyard and shuffle them into my library!
"Not so fast! Behold: Unconquerable Spirit!"
"(Again? How many copies of that card does he have?)"
"Four thousand, two hundred and forty-seven."
"With Unconquerable Spirit, I can make half the Solar Exaltations elude your grasp, placing them directly on the field!"
"Damn. All right, that ends my turn. Your move, Jupiter."
"Pass."
"Come on, Jupiter, you have to play eventually."
"I have a strategy."
"You just keep drawing cards to your hand! You haven't even turned a card face-up this entire game! What sort of strategy could you possibly have?
"That is not for you to know."

Talakeal
2013-03-11, 08:27 PM
Such a ruling would, however be DM fiat. The FAQ explicitly stated that the games of divinity are incomprehensible to the mortal mind and therefore have never been fully explained, but it does give a list of things which they are NOT, and one of those in manipulating or vying for influence in the mortal world.

Hiro Protagonest
2013-03-11, 08:35 PM
What makes you think that playing the Games of Divinity makes things better for humanity? :smallamused: Hey, it's clearly a competitive game, after all...

"I play Reclamation Imminent! It lets me take your Scarlet Empress from the field and add her to my hand!"
"I knew you were going to do that."
"Whatever. Anyway, I'll follow that up by having my Kimberian Akuma attack your Jade Prison! Now I can take all the Solar Exaltations from the Graveyard and shuffle them into my library!
"Not so fast! Behold: Unconquerable Spirit!"
"(Again? How many copies of that card does he have?)"
"Four thousand, two hundred and forty-seven."
"With Unconquerable Spirit, I can make half the Solar Exaltations elude your grasp, placing them directly on the field!"
"Damn. All right, that ends my turn. Your move, Jupiter."
"Pass."
"Come on, Jupiter, you have to play eventually."
"I have a strategy."
"You just keep drawing cards to your hand! You haven't even turned a card face-up this entire game! What sort of strategy could you possibly have?
"That is not for you to know."
The "benevolent" part came from the post I quoted. He assumed Creation would get worse if they stopped.

Such a ruling would, however be DM fiat. The FAQ explicitly stated that the games of divinity are incomprehensible to the mortal mind and therefore have never been fully explained, but it does give a list of things which they are NOT, and one of those in manipulating or vying for influence in the mortal world.

It's not about whether or not it fits into the lore about the Games of Divinity, it's about whether this new lore makes sense with the rest of the setting.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-03-11, 10:13 PM
It's not about whether or not it fits into the lore about the Games of Divinity, it's about whether this new lore makes sense with the rest of the setting.
Right. An established setting is nice for pre-made worldbuilding, but it should never become a straightjacket. Heck, twisting basic rules and assumptions can be a great way to keep experienced players interested.

Doomboy911
2013-03-11, 10:25 PM
Am I the only one that feels like the game of divinity is a bit of a cop out. I feel as though Exalted is trying to have their cake and eat it too. Like they have the unconquered sun who is supposed to be an unbeatable warrior who can never lose and a master general. Than we have the maiden of war (mars) who as I understand simply covers the act of war not warring itself. This is fine but than they say that Mars is a better general. Now if she's a better general than the unconquered sun why can't he be beat? Absolutes in games never really work. In Dungeons and Dragons they've got the vengeful gaze of god which is supposed to be this devastating attack and it does 305d6 of damage (maximize to make'm asplode) but they never say that it's unstoppable or unbeatable just deadly. Now when I try to play exalted I think perhaps yu-shan is beseiged but no it's impregnable so no playing with that. Exalted just doesn't feel like a game that wants to play with me and this I don't want to play with it.

AuraTwilight
2013-03-11, 11:25 PM
Am I the only one that feels like the game of divinity is a bit of a cop out. I feel as though Exalted is trying to have their cake and eat it too. Like they have the unconquered sun who is supposed to be an unbeatable warrior who can never lose and a master general. Than we have the maiden of war (mars) who as I understand simply covers the act of war not warring itself. This is fine but than they say that Mars is a better general. Now if she's a better general than the unconquered sun why can't he be beat? Absolutes in games never really work.

Uh, the Unconquered Sun is a TITLE. He's not literally unconquerable, he just symbolizes the platonic ideal of virtues, and as long as he maintains that virtue to it's maximum, he has its perfect benefit.

The catch is that his virtues all contradict each other, so it's impossible to be 100% perfect in all his virtues at once, meaning that he's conquerable, but it's not reasonably likely to occur.


Now when I try to play exalted I think perhaps yu-shan is beseiged but no it's impregnable so no playing with that.

Uh...there's an entire adventure book about Yu-Shan being besieged, so whoever told you that is completely full of it.

Jerthanis
2013-03-12, 04:03 AM
Exalted just doesn't feel like a game that wants to play with me and this I don't want to play with it.

I would recommend reading just one chapter of one of the Compass of Terrestrial Directions books and imagining the kind of game you'd run there with midlevel D&D characters and run something similar with starting Exalts. It sounds like you're kind of set adrift with all the limitless potential of the Exalts, not being sure how to challenge them and then being turned around and told that X is just totally impossible and cannot even be attempted.

It also sounds like you're getting a lot of your information about the setting from internet people and Exalted fanboys (one or both groups may include members of your gaming group), which largely characterizes the setting with catchy and vapid phrases or image macros of people doing ridiculous things. The Compass books will also tell you what a day in the life of the Nexus underclass is like, or the culturally limiting effects that the bull/war god Ahlat has on the peoples of the Harborhead region, or indeed the dietary needs of the people of the underground city of Gethamane.

The compass books will turn you on to things that can be valued and threatened by things of smaller scale than the entire metaphysical nature of reality or the Incarnae themselves. If the Players want something more epic, explain that you're new to the setting and system and you're starting slow so you can get it right and that if they want to run the game, they're welcome.

Rhynn
2013-03-12, 04:20 AM
Right. An established setting is nice for pre-made worldbuilding, but it should never become a straightjacket. Heck, twisting basic rules and assumptions can be a great way to keep experienced players interested.

I generally agree. The GM's world is the GM's world - not everything published is going to apply. The GM decides the reality.

The thing is, if you change things, it has to make sense. In a huge and complicated setting (like Exalted, or V:tM, or whatever), if you make one change, it ripples. Some of the ripples can in turn affect fundamental assumptions that affect everything else.

For instance, if you try to make an adventure in Glorantha about a God walking the earth and kicking up some crap, you're breaking one of the fundamental assumptions of the setting (gods cannot act directly within Time, they can only be called upon/"channeled" by worshippers). Granted, there is an actual historical event about that rule being broken in the setting, but the whole point there was that Cosmos was almost undone and then had to snap back.

Or if you want to make a Vampire: the Masquerade adventure about

So, yeah. You gotta understand the implications. The more intricately interwoven the setting, the trickier it gets.

I'm all for re-writing settings, but you have to do it a certain way. I took the Forgotten Realms, wiped everything clean and started out by detailing Waterdeep and Undermountain (using the 1E Waterdeep book and the 2E Undermountain box set). There's no conflict because nothing else is even defined yet. I can plug in more stuff from official books as I like, and come up with new things as needed to accommodate the PCs and their actions - it's not a complex or intricate setting to begin with (in comparison to ones like Exalted, WoD, or Glorantha), so there's not a lot of ripples (especially when I am taking the 1E Forgotten Realms set as a baseline).

I wouldn't try to re-write Glorantha, though - both because I love the actual material and because it's too much detail I'd have to throw out (and to me, it's a setting that thrives on its lore) and re-work.

So, yeah. Unless you're throwing out "everything except X", you have to be really careful about your changes, and make sure they make sense - which may require a lot of knowledge about the setting. It's why I'd never run a setting I don't know well without limiting it to the core book(s) only (which I think is a fine option).

Doomboy911
2013-03-12, 08:58 AM
Well I got most of my information about the world from the second edition book saying things like the unconquered sun can never lose.

Andreaz
2013-03-12, 09:06 AM
Well I got most of my information about the world from the second edition book saying things like the unconquered sun can never lose.All seven incarna tend to pull autowin shenanigans, but they have limited scope. Only Sol can do it at his "whim".

That said, even being the god of perfection and being able to pull long strings os perfect rolls, he's not "perfect" as "always wins ever ever ever no matter what lol why do you even bother"(for one because that way you have no game).

His will is not without fault. He's as arrogant as he is brave, as cruel as he is compassionate. He is conflicted. He can falter. He may simply not wish to interfere (he did not get actively involved in the war, nor allowed his daystar to be used as a weapon then. He got tricked and nearly destroyed once, saved by Luna).
His worst enemy is himself.

AuraTwilight
2013-03-12, 12:50 PM
You also have to keep and mind that these shenanigans are exactly why the Games of Divinity exist; the Exalted should be the protagonists, but the Incarnae have important story roles and backround, so they're all on crack so they don't fix everything.

NichG
2013-03-12, 06:31 PM
I can see the point though to why it feels like a copout.

"This guy is so awesome, so so awesome that every awesome thing you do is by definition less awesome than him! He could solve all our problems, he's just that awesome! Are you feeling insecure and pitiful yet? Well good, because despite how much you suck you have to fix it because he's busy playing poker."

It manages to both belittle the PCs and the NPCs at the same time. It makes things feel hollow if the game is just, well, the deities got bored and found something better to do.

FAQ, lore, whatever. Throw it away if you can make the game more interesting by doing so.

- The Game is actually the last great attack by the denizens of the Wyld. No one has actually managed to identify it as such, but ending it would be the biggest thing anyone could do to stabilize reality. It works by amping up the virtues of the players - the more absolute their powers, the more literally they symbolize things about reality, the harder it is for them to simply step away from the game, because it would mean betraying their natures. The only way out is for an outside to wreck it, or for the participants to voluntarily shed their divinity.

- The Game controls the fates of mortals/etc, despite whatever lore or info there is in the FAQ.

- The Game literally controls the underlying mechanics of reality. Basically, all the Incarnae are busy GMing.

- The Game is utterly self-serving and pointless, and speaks to the fact that all of the virtues ascribed to the Incarnae are in reality bunk, a pure PR move.

- The Game is actually a deception. The Incarnae are out doing stuff behind the scenes - everyone just thinks they're in there playing, but its not like anyone can just go in and check (or at least they don't come back out if they try).

- The Game is a buffer to prevent the Incarnae from actually touching or influencing reality, because their every action, word, or touch would be a thing of such [insert appropriate over the top adjective here] that stuff would break.

Really, if you don't think something makes sense in a setting you might as well change it - your answer might not make sense either in other ways, but at least it turns it into something that can be explored at the table.

Hiro Protagonest
2013-03-12, 07:24 PM
Why do the Games have to be the device used to explain it at all? Maybe the Primordials threatened to terminate their surrender if the Incarnae didn't bind themselves to an oath to never leave Yu-Shan (Luna gets around this by always being in Yu-Shan).

AuraTwilight
2013-03-12, 08:49 PM
Why can't the Games just be like, really, really, really fun?


I can see the point though to why it feels like a copout.

"This guy is so awesome, so so awesome that every awesome thing you do is by definition less awesome than him! He could solve all our problems, he's just that awesome! Are you feeling insecure and pitiful yet? Well good, because despite how much you suck you have to fix it because he's busy playing poker."

That's like saying you can't have any mythological heroes because the gods are better than any mortal hero but don't feel like fixing the problem of the story. Protagonism isn't about being the best, period. It's about being the one who has to deal with it. There's entire GENRES about heroes who are burdened with the responsibility of doing what it is they do even though there are seemingly more able, more qualified people around.

NichG
2013-03-12, 09:15 PM
Why can't the Games just be like, really, really, really fun?


They can be, but then you have a series of gods who are more interested in fun than their responsibilities. This says something about the gods. If you don't like what it says, you can change the gods, change the Games, or both.

And you also have to ask, why put this setting element here? What does it add? What does it imply? If the Games are that fun, how did they come to be? Who initially made the decision 'hey lets distract the gods'? Because the possible answers to that question can all lead in interesting directions. If on the other hand you're afraid to ask because you don't want to violate the canon, thats a lost opportunity.



That's like saying you can't have any mythological heroes because the gods are better than any mortal hero but don't feel like fixing the problem of the story. Protagonism isn't about being the best, period. It's about being the one who has to deal with it. There's entire GENRES about heroes who are burdened with the responsibility of doing what it is they do even though there are seemingly more able, more qualified people around.

Nowhere did I say 'you can't do this'. But the OP disliked this aspect of Exalted, and its easy enough to change if you unshackle yourself from the lore. Also, unlike most mythology where the gods aren't doing squat and the heroes have to do all the heavy lifting, Exalted assigns its deities highly inhuman aspects of being pinnacles of perfection in various ways. The Greek Gods were very human in their behavior and personalities - it makes sense they'd rather play poker than fix things. But if you're the pinnacle of Compassion it kind of devalues Compassion.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-03-12, 09:21 PM
They can be, but then you have a series of gods who are more interested in fun than their responsibilities. This says something about the gods. If you don't like what it says, you can change the gods, change the Games, or both.

And you also have to ask, why put this setting element here? What does it add? What does it imply? If the Games are that fun, how did they come to be? Who initially made the decision 'hey lets distract the gods'? Because the possible answers to that question can all lead in interesting directions. If on the other hand you're afraid to ask because you don't want to violate the canon, thats a lost opportunity.
Well, wasn't that the point of the gods? The Primordials made them to run Creation for them while they chilled on the porch and drank beer. The gods were like "heck with that!" and made the Exalts to overthrow the Primordials. Afterwards, they patted them on the heads and said "good job, champ. Now enjoy Creation, I'm going to go over here and party."

Being lazy and irresponsible is the only thing that ever got the gods to do stuff.

AuraTwilight
2013-03-12, 10:30 PM
They can be, but then you have a series of gods who are more interested in fun than their responsibilities. This says something about the gods. If you don't like what it says, you can change the gods, change the Games, or both.


Er, no, it says something about the Games of Divinity. They're something so amazing that anyone who isn't a Primordial basically has their very soul blown into star dust just by touching a gamepiece. It's the most transcendent, addictive, blissful, all-consuming experience ever. The entirety of Creation was built as a safe place for the games to be played. It'd be healthier for the Gods not to play, but their addiction isn't necessarily their fault like you're implying.


And you also have to ask, why put this setting element here? What does it add? What does it imply? If the Games are that fun, how did they come to be? Who initially made the decision 'hey lets distract the gods'? Because the possible answers to that question can all lead in interesting directions. If on the other hand you're afraid to ask because you don't want to violate the canon, thats a lost opportunity.

See above. Canonically speaking, the Primordials were tired of fighting off the Wyld, created Creation as an engine for the funnest thing ever, and decided to be lazy.

They chose this over their previous goal of pursuing the Shining Answer, and they alll began to give in to their tremendous character flaws. The gods, wanting to know what the big deal was, gave it a shot, and were pretty much screwed.

Leaving the Exalted, the protagonists, to be in charge of everything. As they should be. I'm not exactly seeing the problem here.


Nowhere did I say 'you can't do this'. But the OP disliked this aspect of Exalted, and its easy enough to change if you unshackle yourself from the lore. Also, unlike most mythology where the gods aren't doing squat and the heroes have to do all the heavy lifting, Exalted assigns its deities highly inhuman aspects of being pinnacles of perfection in various ways. The Greek Gods were very human in their behavior and personalities - it makes sense they'd rather play poker than fix things. But if you're the pinnacle of Compassion it kind of devalues Compassion.

The gods are never claimed to be perfect in Exalted; not even the Unconquered Sun. Quite the contrary, much of the game's lore is made of the fact that moral perfection is impossible, and trying to be so made Sol Invictus into a broken man who feels like he has no choice but to turn over Creation to mankind.


Well, wasn't that the point of the gods? The Primordials made them to run Creation for them while they chilled on the porch and drank beer. The gods were like "heck with that!" and made the Exalts to overthrow the Primordials. Afterwards, they patted them on the heads and said "good job, champ. Now enjoy Creation, I'm going to go over here and party."

Being lazy and irresponsible is the only thing that ever got the gods to do stuff.

Uh...to be completely fair here, the Incarnae were motivated by how the Primordials tortured people, broke **** for their own amusement, and killed people by the thousands and millions. The Games were just a bonus/incentive for the less scrupulous deities.

Sol Invictus is the same deity that was willing to sacrifice himself for a single human hostage. He wasn't acting out of laziness.

Tavar
2013-03-12, 11:15 PM
Also, is it really considered Lazy for a slave to want to be free?

Gensh
2013-03-13, 05:33 PM
Also, is it really considered Lazy for a slave to want to be free?

As Tavar's archnemesis, I think this ethical debate should not be raised here, as it will distract from all other topics. Also, because I think we'd be hitting the Playground's TOS pretty quickly. The point of the setting is that absolutely everything is morally ambiguous, and everyone can argue their side. Even the second edition Abyssals, who are Chosen of Murder, for crying out loud.

As mentioned, Sol is god of Virtue and Perfection. He is out-and-out untouchable while he maintains all four Virtues. The instant one of the player characters makes him do something he'll regret later, he loses a chunk of his defenses. This is really easy to do.

AuraTwilight
2013-03-13, 07:10 PM
As mentioned, Sol is god of Virtue and Perfection. He is out-and-out untouchable while he maintains all four Virtues. The instant one of the player characters makes him do something he'll regret later, he loses a chunk of his defenses. This is really easy to do.

Infact, it's pretty much impossible NOT to do, given that the four Virtues contradict each other pretty much all the time.

Lord Raziere
2013-03-13, 07:22 PM
"Hey Sol, wanna duel me or contemplate the mysteries of the universe in meditation?"
*Temperance and Valor conflict*
*Sol chooses duel*
*I kill Sol because he suppressed Temperance* :smalltongue:

jindra34
2013-03-13, 07:30 PM
Infact, it's pretty much impossible NOT to do, given that the four Virtues contradict each other pretty much all the time.

There is only 1 confirmed instance when every virtue aligns: Directly beating the Ebon Dragon. And thats mostly due to the fact that his nature is the antithesis of virtue.

Tavar
2013-03-13, 08:11 PM
As Tavar's archnemesis, I think this ethical debate should not be raised here, as it will distract from all other topics.

Please stop calling yourself my archnemesis.

And, honestly, if you're arguing that slavery for eternity is the moral option....

Hiro Protagonest
2013-03-13, 08:44 PM
"Hey Sol, wanna duel me or contemplate the mysteries of the universe in meditation?"
*Temperance and Valor conflict*
*Sol chooses duel*
*I kill Sol because he suppressed Temperance* :smalltongue:

I don't think accepting a challenge is the same as being hot-headed enough to suppress Temperance. Particularly since it's said in Gunstar Autochthonia that if he ignores the taunts of that one Zenith, he loses the Godspear, but nothing is said of him losing the Aegis if he chases her.

Lord Raziere
2013-03-13, 10:26 PM
That was a joke. obviously not a good one.

Doomboy911
2013-03-15, 10:15 AM
Now this sounds like I'm a girl dating a bad guy I think I can change but even though I don't want to run Exalted because I feel a good bit about it is just silly but I'm going to want to play it because it's just silly. I've got this Shaolin monk solar who's a master of the techniques (mainly the ones in Shaolin Soccer) he was sent on a suicide mission being told that he was going to be a great hero and he was going to be backed up by other soldiers after beating the forces off he was told that it was a suicide mission and went into a severe depression. He put on a couple of hundred pounds and eats constantly. He's a fat blob that is indestructible and hits like a truck but he's usually too busy sleeping or eating. his name is "He who bears the Iron Bell"