What CR would a Balrog be? (Not the Balor)

[Mystic Muse]

It's probably one of the most iconic monsters ever, and I'm wondering if it has been statted out anywhere.

No, I'm not interested in the Balor. Maybe it's similar to things in the Silmarillion which I have not yet read, but just going by the movie, there are a number of differences.

They don't explode when they die.
They sure don't seem to have any SLAs
They presumably can't fly (Otherwise, destroying the bridge wouldn't have done much)
They seem to be at least one size category larger than Balors
They don't seem to be immune to electricity (Gandalf kills it with an electricity charged Glamdring.

Anybody have any idea what CR Balrogs would be?

[Kornaki]

Isn't "What are its stats?" a better first question?

[Mystic Muse]

Isn't "What are its stats?" a better first question?

Actually, given that I'm turning it into a monster class, and that's more dependent on CR, CR is, in fact, the most relevant bit here. :smalltongue:

Granted, what are its stats is pretty important, but it's 3 AM, and I stopped thinking logically 3 hours ago.:smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

I could simply make it up, but LotR is one of those series that does not map well to D&D. The movie version would probably be CR 12-13, being a big bruiser with a fire whip. Any higher and it stops being effective for its CR now matter how big it gets.

Purple Worm would be my comparison point, since they are both gargantuan and bruisers.

[Yuukale]

Balrogs are Maiar, a somewhat "low-class" of the Ainur. Therefore, if you consider Eru as an overgod similar to Forgotten Realms' AO, you could say that the Valar are Gods and thus, the Maiar are Demigods.

You could also state both as Greater Deities and Lesser Deities respectively. Although I believe that Gods/Demigods would be a better one since not all Valar are equal in power (Morgoth being a Greater Deity while Nienna would be a Lesser one...)

[Crake]

Uhh, isnt the balor just a renamed balrog for copyright/intellectual property reasons?

infact, in it's original publication, i believe it was actually referred to as a balrog then later changed

[Bakkan]

Well, if you take the fairly common assumption that Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas, and Gimli are about level 6, and given Gandalf's assertion that the Balrog is too difficult for them to handle, I think we can put the lowest possible CR at 10 (an overwhelming encounter).

In the Silmarillion, we unfortunately do not have nearly as much information with which to deduce the levels of the characters. However, we note that it took six Balrogs (IIRC) to kill Feanor. If we assume that Feanor was level 20, which honestly seems a little high, that would make the CR of six Balrogs about 20 (in order to give them an even chance against the single Elf), which makes the CR of an individual Balrog around 14 or 15.

I would probably build a basic Balrog to have a CR of 13, but go ahead and advance some of them via hit dice or, better yet, class levels. In the movie the Balrog was depicted almost as a beast, but they are supposed to be at least moderately intelligent.

[Yora]

I think 20 i just fine and there is no problem with the Balor stats.

[Alienist]

Wasn't Feanor able to make Artifacts? To me that says he was an epic level character.

I believe there was some kind of Balrog<->Dragon equivalency. That would put the Balrog's CR way up there at about 26.

[hamishspence]

Wasn't Feanor able to make Artifacts? To me that says he was an epic level character.

Even epic characters in D&D can't make artifacts, only epic items- without DM fiat.

Conversely, high level nonepic characters, like Fzoul (Chosen of Bane) have been explicitly described as making artifacts (the Scepter of the Tyrant's Eye)- though I'm guessing that was with in-universe divine fiat.

[hymer]

I believe there was some kind of Balrog<->Dragon equivalency. That would put the Balrog's CR way up there at about 26.

Well, MERP sets Balrogs at level 60, and Dragons at a measly 25. The book I have allows for PCs of levels 1-10.
But then, there's just the one Dragon stat, so presumably this is the 'average' Dragon, whatever that is. Still, Balrogs according to that interpretation are by and large much more powerful than dragons, several times so. I think Legolas refers to Balrogs as the greatest banes of Elves, save Sauron. He may do so because there aren't any more dragons around, though.*

All that aside, I don't think Tolkien intended for Balrogs and Dragons to compare like that. Balrogs are seen in many glimpses in the Silmarillion, fighting mighty individual heroes in duels that at least two times end in the death of both sides (just like the fight with Gandalf).
Dragons are seen more as devastators of large tracts of land, participating in great battles against vast armies and attacking towns to sack them. Their roles in Melkor's armies were different, and they each had their own strengths.

That said, don't let the Balrog of the movies fool you. You don't see much of anything of its hidden powers. The fight on the bridge (and the preceding skirmish in the Chamber of Mazarbul) between Gandalf and the Balrog was very much a battle of non-physical power, magic if you will, and only after several clashes do the two Maiar begin fighting with much physicality (if that's a word). Shouting at each other isn't just for show, and neither is bursting into flame or shrouding oneself in Shadow.**

*We don't know if there was, nor what Legolas thought of the matter.
** I am here assuming that the movie is trying to show what's going on in the book. Not entirely a safe assumption. If you were in doubt, I take the book to be right and the movie wrong whenever there is contradiction.

[scarmiglionne4]

Uhh, isnt the balor just a renamed balrog for copyright/intellectual property reasons?

infact, in it's original publication, i believe it was actually referred to as a balrog then later changed

I seem to recall seeing that it the very old early wargaming D&D rules. Even if we are wrong, in the 1e monster manual is refers to there being only six. Tolkien was supposed to have said there were between 3 and 7 balrogs to have ever existed.

As for the similarities in description... To quote Fellowship:
"Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it...Its streaming mane kindled and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs....His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadows about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils."

[awa]

i agree we did not really see the fight between gandalf and the balrog and when gandalf beat the balrog he did it with a lot of deus ex machina.

that said be careful with labels like artifact and god cross system they don't always translate well.

marvel Thor is a god who occasionally gets between up by a guy who stood to close to some gamma rays. and marvel Thor is more powerful then most depictions of Thor. Compared to high level wizards many gods would be found wanting.

artifacts even more so the one ring is a glorified ring of invisibility with some other minor effects it would not be overly difficult to recreate it with the item creation rules.

edit never mid it looks like im agreeing with my self

[zimmerwald1915]

*We don't know if there was, nor what Legolas thought of the matter.
Smaug is described as the last great fire-drake, though not the last of the dragons.

[hymer]

@ zimmerwald1915: Very true. But their absence in the epic tale is rather conspicuous.
Smaug attacks Erebor in late 2700s if I recall correctly, and the War of the Ring is 3018-3019. So the last great fire-drake leaves his home. 250 or so years later, are there any of his lesser kin left? Could be, certainly, but Dragons are at the least in decline by now. Why did Smaug leave wherever he had been until then? Did the others do so too for similar reasons? And if he was only succesful for a time, how long would his lesser kin have survived? I find no mention of dragons after the death of Smaug.
I'm not saying there were certainly no dragons. I'm saying there's a case to be made that there wasn't, and no definitive statement I've yet seen to either confirm or deny.

[fryplink]

A lot of the things you noted at different in the Balor entry (such as size or SU abilities) were lost in the translation from print to film. IIRC the Balrog in the book was described as larger than human, but was not described as the towering figure portrayed in the movies. Also, Gandalf says that he is tired, (from fighting the Balrog in the spiritual sense) long before the standoff on the bridge, which implies SU abilities. Also, the book is never clear if it had wings, but the movie showed it had wings (it fell because it couldn't get them out maybe?)

That said, I'd probably just water down a Balor's powers to make a Balrog if you wanted to? That way it's still somewhat a challenge?

[Answerer]

We see almost nothing of the Balrog in Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion doesn't give much more information. How on earth would you determine what it's capable of?

In any event, D&D 3.5 models Lord of the Rings extremely poorly.

[Cirrylius]

...fighting mighty individual heroes in duels that at least two times end in the death of both sides (just like the fight with Gandalf).
Huh. Maybe they DO explode.



*We don't know... what Legolas thought of the matter.

"AI!! AI!! A BALROG!!"

[hymer]

@ Cirrylius: The asterisk was meant to connect that sentence to one higher up. It was a later edit. I was referring to what Legolas may have thought about whether there were dragons. But I agree that his reaction to the Balrog is quite striking. :smallsmile:

[Certified]

Since, if I remember my Tolkien trivia correctly Gandolf and the Balrog were meant to be of the same order, or strata of beings, I'd set the CR at the same Level as whatever you have Gandolf. As, they were peers having them be an equal level CR imply it would take 4 people of Gandolf's level to defeat the Bolrog expending something like 25% of their resources. Since it was just Gandolf fighting he expended nearly all of his abilities but was victorious.

Please accept that my answer is intended as a non-answer.

[awa]

i believe gandalf is normally not allowed to use his full power but was allowed to on this occasion so if you used gandalfs cr you would need to use him at his full strength not the power level he normally has.

also you need to think about why the rest of the fellow ship couldn't help. no magic items an no apparent massive damge optimization means dr or regeneration would make the rest of the fellow ship not particularly useful.

a shadow might be cr 3 but a level 6 fighter with no magic weapon will still be helpless against it.

[ericgrau]

The balor was based on the balrog just like halflings are really hobbits. But they had to change the names to avoid infringement.

The power of the balrog in the story is very vague so we can't be sure how strong it is. Assuming the party of 8 is around level 5, as many sources seem to say, it is at least CR 11 because it was overwhelming to them. Yet many sources likewise don't peg Gandalf that high even tho it was an even fight for him. People always want to put their favorite heros and villains around level 20, but actually the abilities in LOTR are fairly tame compared to D&D. I wouldn't put the balrog much higher than CR 10. Maybe CR 13 assuming Gandalf was giving it more of a fight than he usually does.

[Jeraa]

The balor was based on the balrog just like halflings are really hobbits. But they had to change the names to avoid infringement.

One thing to remember is that the original stats for the balor were based on the balrog, back in the day when the largest dragons had like 88 hit points maximum, and pretty much only the gods had triple digit hit point values. Balors, like most other D&D monsters, have had significant power increases since then.

[Tanuki Tales]

marvel Thor is a god who occasionally gets between up by a guy who stood to close to some gamma rays. and marvel Thor is more powerful then most depictions of Thor. Compared to high level wizards many gods would be found wanting.


That's honestly a false comparison.

Now, trust me, I'm a major Hulk fan, but I know that ol' Jade Jaws only ever hangs in a fight with Thor because Thor massively holds back against non-Gods and Immortals. He's pretty much capable of giving Hulk nearly the same one-sided curb stomping that Zeus handed him.

And Thor isn't even a Skyfather (currently).


But back on topic....

Is there honestly any word from Tolkien that the Balrog actually had wings?

[Mystic Muse]

Uhh, isnt the balor just a renamed balrog for copyright/intellectual property reasons?

infact, in it's original publication, i believe it was actually referred to as a balrog then later changed


I think 20 i just fine and there is no problem with the Balor stats.

Balors have several abilities the Balrog was never demonstrated to have. If it had Blasphemy, it would have deathmurdered almost the entire fellowship. If it had Teleport at-will, destroying the bridge would have done nothing. If it had Power Word stun, it could have repeatedly frozen several members of the fellowship and picked them off one by one. If it had fire storm or Implosion, it would have definitely have killed one of the fellowship. If it could summon other demons, I see no reason it wouldn't have.



A lot of the things you noted at different in the Balor entry (such as size or SU abilities) were lost in the translation from print to film. IIRC the Balrog in the book was described as larger than human, but was not described as the towering figure portrayed in the movies. Also, Gandalf says that he is tired, (from fighting the Balrog in the spiritual sense) long before the standoff on the bridge, which implies SU abilities. Also, the book is never clear if it had wings, but the movie showed it had wings (it fell because it couldn't get them out maybe?) Maybe. Balor has good maneuverability, so, if a Balor is equivalent, I see no reason there's no point at which it could have flown.




That said, I'd probably just water down a Balor's powers to make a Balrog if you wanted to? That way it's still somewhat a challenge?

Yeah, that makes sense.


i believe gandalf is normally not allowed to use his full power but was allowed to on this occasion so if you used gandalfs cr you would need to use him at his full strength not the power level he normally has.

also you need to think about why the rest of the fellow ship couldn't help. no magic items an no apparent massive damge optimization means dr or regeneration would make the rest of the fellow ship not particularly useful.


Yeah. Assuming Balor= Balrog, the Balor has DR 15 Cold Iron and good. Given that none of the Fellowship seemed to have weapons made of anything other than normal steel, it's unlikely any of them could have actually hurt it.


The balor was based on the balrog just like halflings are really hobbits. But they had to change the names to avoid infringement.

The power of the balrog in the story is very vague so we can't be sure how strong it is. Assuming the party of 8 is around level 5, as many sources seem to say, it is at least CR 11 because it was overwhelming to them. Yet many sources likewise don't peg Gandalf that high even tho it was an even fight for him. People always want to put their favorite heros and villains around level 20, but actually the abilities in LOTR are fairly tame compared to D&D. I wouldn't put the balrog much higher than CR 10. Maybe CR 13 assuming Gandalf was giving it more of a fight than he usually does.

This is more what I'm looking for, thank you.

And I like the movie version of the Balrog, even if some people don't.

[Cirrylius]

Hulk vs. Thor aside.


Now, trust me, I'm a major Hulk fan, but I know that ol' Jade Jaws only ever hangs in a fight with Thor because Thor massively holds back against non-Gods and Immortals. He's pretty much capable of giving Hulk nearly the same one-sided curb stomping that Zeus handed him.

Even when berserking, Thor and Hulk were evenly matched (IH#440). In more than 2 dozen fights, Thor's only definitively won twice; once with a sucker-punch lightning bolt and once with a ring-out (albeit after fighting Hulk and Drax simulataneously) that left Hulk unharmed. Hulk has won I think 4 times, twice by sucker-punch, once by wrecking his face with Mjolnir, and once with Thor fighting sans Mjolnir, because Hulk wanted an honest contest of strength and durability. And while Thor told himself he was holding back (in the 70's), in more recent comics has flat stated that Hulk is physically superior at least twice.

[Zonugal]

In January T.A. 3019, the Fellowship of the Ring travelled through Moria on the way to Mount Doom. They were attacked in the Chamber of Mazarbul by Orcs. The Fellowship fled through a side door, but when the wizard Gandalf the Grey tried to place a "shutting spell" on the door to block the pursuit behind them, the Balrog entered the chamber on the other side and cast a counterspell. Gandalf spoke a word of Command to stay the door, but the door shattered and the chamber collapsed. Gandalf was severely weakened by this encounter. The company fled with him, but the Orcs and the Balrog, taking a different route, caught up with them at the bridge of Khazad-dûm. The Elf Legolas instantly recognized the Balrog and Gandalf tried to hold the bridge against it. As Gandalf faced the Balrog he said, "You cannot pass!", and broke the bridge beneath the Balrog. As it fell, the Balrog wrapped its whip about Gandalf's knees, dragging him to the brink. As the Fellowship looked on in horror, Gandalf cried "Fly, you fools!" and fell.

After the long fall, the two landed in a subterranean lake, which extinguished the flames of the Balrog's body; however it remained "a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake". They fought in the water, with the Balrog clutching at Gandalf to strangle him, and Gandalf hewing the Balrog with his sword, until finally the Balrog fled into ancient tunnels of unknown origin. Gandalf pursued the creature for eight days, until they climbed to the peak of Zirakzigil, where the Balrog was forced to turn and fight once again, its body erupting into new flame. Here they fought for two days and nights. In the end, the Balrog was defeated and cast down, breaking the mountainside where it fell "in ruin". Gandalf himself died following this ordeal, but he was later sent back to Middle-earth with even greater powers, as Gandalf the White, "until his task was finished".

I don't know too many characters, or monsters, who could fight for eight days straight.

I think both Gandalf & the Balrog are a bit higher then CR 13.

[Tanuki Tales]

Hulk vs. Thor aside.


I'll respond to this through PM so we don't derail the thread.

[lunar2]

I don't know too many characters, or monsters, who could fight for eight days straight.

I think both Gandalf & the Balrog are a bit higher then CR 13.

yeah, this is essentially a solar and a pit fiend trying to kill each other with mainly physical attacks. the fight's going to take awhile.

[Slipperychicken]

I don't know too many characters, or monsters, who could fight for eight days straight.



Eight days of pursuit, not fighting. According to the quote, they only fought for two days on the mountain, plus the opening tussle in the water.

Still, talk about long bossfights....

[Starbuck_II]

It's probably one of the most iconic monsters ever, and I'm wondering if it has been statted out anywhere.

No, I'm not interested in the Balor. Maybe it's similar to things in the Silmarillion which I have not yet read, but just going by the movie, there are a number of differences.

They don't explode when they die.
They sure don't seem to have any SLAs
They don't seem to be immune to electricity (Gandalf kills it with an electricity charged Glamdring.

All true.


They presumably can't fly (Otherwise, destroying the bridge wouldn't have done much)
They seem to be at least one size category larger than Balors


Anybody have any idea what CR Balrogs would be?

Untrue about flight: some can fly, presumably the one Gandalf fought coudn't. The ones wings could (Gandalf's wasn't supposed to have wings, they just showed it like that in the movie)

Size varies depending on Balrog. Some are smaller, some same size, and some larger.

What we know:
1) flaming whips
2) powerful Long swords that flaming (black axes or maces in The Silmarillion, even wore armor)
3) Claws like steel
4) Regeneration (could not easily be destroyed means to me this) or DR
5) As Maiar, they could shapechange/polymorph
5) Flaming body unless water applied
Gothmog was the Lord of the Balrogs: only 12 feet tall, black axe and whip

I'd say fireball is appropriate as they are flame creatures.

So Balors are tougher than Balrogs I think; CR 11-13 seems fine.

[Belingorm]

This site has some interesting stuff on the Balrog. It talks about how the balrog did not fly at all a and that the Balrog was man-sized. http://www.lotrplaza.com/showthread.php?15468-On-Balrogs

[Gurgeh]

I think it can't be sufficiently stressed that Tolkein's world does not translate well into D&D - its magic is subtle and largely implicit, and is far less discretely packaged than the "Vancian" spells you expect from a wizard in D&D. Most magical duels in LOTR and The Simarillion are described more as a contest of wills than the kind of pyrotechnic displays that predominate in D&D and its associated literature.

The Balrogs were figures of terrible power in the books: demigods wreathed in shadow and flame, the greatest lieutenants of Morgoth, considered even more powerful and dangerous than dragons. The AD&D Balor is pretty obviously an attempt to transpose the Balrog to a setting where power is measured by your ability to generate huge explosions and turn reality upside down with the power of your mind; its subsequent proliferation of abilities (teleportation, mind control, great balls of fire - goodness gracious!) are a natural consequence of trying to make it a serious threat to high-level parties. Its similarity to an actual Balrog is purely thematic, but undeniable.

The old Dragon magazine article (Gandalf was a fifth-level magic user, or something similar) sums up the discrepancy pretty well: the Balrog in Moria, as written, would be CR 11 or 12 at most.


You could also state both as Greater Deities and Lesser Deities respectively. Although I believe that Gods/Demigods would be a better one since not all Valar are equal in power (Morgoth being a Greater Deity while Nienna would be a Lesser one...)
Actually, Nienna is one of the Aratar and is certainly more "powerful" than many of the other Valar (Tulkas, Lorien, most of the women). But yes, that's broadly how it would work if you were to try and shoe-horn the Ainur into D&D categories: the Aratar would be greater deities, the other Valar would be intermediate or lesser deities (seriously, what the **** does Nessa ever do?) and the Maiar would be demigods, with some of the greatest (Sauron, Arien) perhaps achieving lesser deity status. Eru would be outside the rulebooks entirely: he's a God with a capital G, essentially omnipotent and omniscient.

[sabelo2000]

@ zimmerwald1915: Very true. But their absence in the epic tale is rather conspicuous.
Smaug attacks Erebor in late 2700s if I recall correctly, and the War of the Ring is 3018-3019. So the last great fire-drake leaves his home. 250 or so years later, are there any of his lesser kin left? Could be, certainly, but Dragons are at the least in decline by now. Why did Smaug leave wherever he had been until then? Did the others do so too for similar reasons? And if he was only succesful for a time, how long would his lesser kin have survived? I find no mention of dragons after the death of Smaug.
I'm not saying there were certainly no dragons. I'm saying there's a case to be made that there wasn't, and no definitive statement I've yet seen to either confirm or deny.

In the Council of Elrond, somebody suggests the possibility of coercing a dragon to fire-breath the Ring out of existence, so it's assumed at least SOME still live. The idea is shot down because everyone assumes no dragon GREAT ENOUGH is still around.

[hymer]

I think you may actually be referring to a passage in Chapter 2, 'The Shadow of the Past':


It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself.

I agree, this may well be taken as a pointer towards dragons being thought to exist yet. If Gandalf had said 'None of the still living dragons', it would have been conclusive that he believed it. As it is now, it's a little ambivalent - he certainly indicates them to be in the aforementioned decline, and maybe would not be surprised if they no longer existed.
But he didn't make any categorical statement on dragons still existing. The sentence would still be correct if no dragon exists at all. Which may be taken as a case that Gandalf isn't quite certain whether any dragons still live.
Personally, I think Tolkien may have been keeping his options open. And I expect he would have been fine with a reader concluding either or neither.

Edit: To be clear, this isn't entirely academic to our thread topic. This shows that the Maia Sauron is so powerful that his creation is unscratchable by even the mightiest of all great dragons. So a Maia's power is greater than that of even the mightiest dragon ever.
Hence, Balrogs (also Maiar), are probably more powerful than dragons in general - perhaps more powerful than any of them. So ICE probably chose rightly in that sense when they made the dragon lvl 25 and the Balrog lvl 60.

[Seharvepernfan]

A glabrezu is CR 13. Imo, a balrog should be about CR 10-11.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

What we know of the Balrog and how it translates;

1) Easily defeated an entire dwarven stronghold that had mithril dwarvencraft weapons/armor, many of which were magical. Plus swords are of no use against it as stated; High DR and hard to penetrate. I'd say 15/good and law or even 20/good and law.

2) A creature of darkness. Darkness/deeper darkness SLA.

3) Could cause fear. Legolas, who is immune to the supernatural fear caused by Ringwraiths, is still rooted to the spot momentarily and his bow and arrows almost fall from his fingers. Thus both a fear aura and/or SLA, and Power Word: Stun.

4) Fought Gandalf spiritually before even appearing on screen and countered his spells. Some sort of indirect spiritual attack plus Greater Dispel Magic SLA, with the option of using it as a counterspell as well.

5) Ridiculously strong and tough; when Gandalf tears down the room Balin's tomb is in and buries the Balrog (hey look; Gandalf can cast an Earthquake - equivalent!), the Balrog not only survives but is strong enough to escape (a 10ft cube of rock weighs 100 tons or more).

6) Has a sword and whip of fire and an aura of fire in general. Immunity to fire + fireshield + weapon of energy as extraordinary abilities rather than supernatural (they can be snuffed out by enough water).

7) Has wings and can move around the world pretty fast (they come to Morgoth's aid from across his territory almost immediately in the Silmarillion) but still fell at the bridge's breaking. Thus clumsy maneuverability for it not to be enough room for flight in the caverns and his Teleport equivalent merely vastly increases his fly speed rather than instantaneously move him.

8) Fought and ran for several days. Immune to fatigue and Regeneration for both it and Gandalf.

9) Heroes dying from their wounds even in victory but no mention of explosions. Cursed bleeding wounds ability.

[Belingorm]

What we know of the Balrog and how it translates;

1) Easily defeated an entire dwarven stronghold that had mithril dwarvencraft weapons/armor, many of which were magical. Plus swords are of no use against it as stated; High DR and hard to penetrate. I'd say 15/good and law or even 20/good and law.

2) A creature of darkness. Darkness/deeper darkness SLA.

3) Could cause fear. Legolas, who is immune to the supernatural fear caused by Ringwraiths, is still rooted to the spot momentarily and his bow and arrows almost fall from his fingers. Thus both a fear aura and/or SLA, and Power Word: Stun.

4) Fought Gandalf spiritually before even appearing on screen and countered his spells. Some sort of indirect spiritual attack plus Greater Dispel Magic SLA, with the option of using it as a counterspell as well.

5) Ridiculously strong and tough; when Gandalf tears down the room Balin's tomb is in and buries the Balrog (hey look; Gandalf can cast an Earthquake - equivalent!), the Balrog not only survives but is strong enough to escape (a 10ft cube of rock weighs 100 tons or more).

6) Has a sword and whip of fire and an aura of fire in general. Immunity to fire + fireshield + weapon of energy as extraordinary abilities rather than supernatural (they can be snuffed out by enough water).

7) Has wings and can move around the world pretty fast (they come to Morgoth's aid from across his territory almost immediately in the Silmarillion) but still fell at the bridge's breaking. Thus clumsy maneuverability for it not to be enough room for flight in the caverns and his Teleport equivalent merely vastly increases his fly speed rather than instantaneously move him.

8) Fought and ran for several days. Immune to fatigue and Regeneration for both it and Gandalf.

9) Heroes dying from their wounds even in victory but no mention of explosions. Cursed bleeding wounds ability.This site has info on the Balrog and it also talked about how the Balrogs do not have wings. http://www.lotrplaza.com/showthread....468-On-Balrogs

[hymer]

@ Belingorm: That's a dead link to me.

@ BtL: Nice! A few comments, though:

1: Well, he (if indeed the Balrog was a he) did it, but it seems to have taken a year or two. That the Dwarves were unable to beat him may have had something to do with the aura of fear more than being impervious to weapons. Saying that 'swords are no more use here' is probably more of a metaphorical 'your puny mortal warrior ways are as naught to we Maiar', seeing as Glamdring was certainly of use for Gandalf in that fight ('ever I hewed him'; even the final strike may have been made with Glamdring - it caused the Balrog to fall over the edge anyway).

5: Gandalf hoped he had buried the unknown enemy there, but he couldn't be sure. It would seem he was wrong, but there's no clear evidence either way. (The two spells running counter to each other combined to be enough to shatter some critical roof support. Maybe not quite of earthquake power, but certainly quite strong.)

7: Let's not open that particular can of worms. Suffice it to say that Gandalf, despite having no wings, is remarked by Aragorn to be able to travel anywhere he wants faster than Aragorn himself ('the greatest traveler and huntsman of this age of the world') can. The OP can decide for herself whether she wants to go one way or the other.

8: Gandalf is specifically not immune to fatigue, though he certainly endures quite a bit (no doubt in part due to having a little help from his Ring). Weariness is one of the things he must contend with, being in Middle-earth.

All quotes are by memory.

[Waspinator]

Yeah, there's a big problem with Middle Earth having much less flashy magic than D&D does. Seems like they added a bunch of stuff to the Balor to make it more D&D-y.

[Belingorm]

Here what the link if it worked had on the Balrogs not having wings.

regarding Wings

Before The Lord of the Rings

To prove that Tolkien’s initial conception of Balrogs, found in The Fall of Gondolin, could not fly and did not have wings, only one quote and minimal logic is required.

Then arose Thorndor, King of Eagles, and he loved not Melko, for Melko had caught many of his kindred and chained them against sharp rocks to squeeze from them the magic words whereby he might learn to fly (for he dreamed of contending even against Manwë in the air); and when they would not tell he cut off their wings and sought to fashion therefrom a mighty pair for his use, but it availed not.


-HoME
II: The Book of Lost Tales II, The Fall of Gondolin<br style="">
<br style="">

If Balrogs could fly, Melko would not need to have tried to get the secret of
flight from the eagles. Therefore, Balrogs could not fly. If Balrogs had wings,
Melko would have realized the futility in fashioning a pair of wings for
himself without the ‘magic words’. Therefore, Balrogs did not have wings. So
this earliest conception of Balrogs did not have wings and could not fly.

The Eagles dwell out of reach of Orc and Balrog, and are great foes of Morgoth and his people.

(HoME IV: The Shaping of Middle-earth, The Earliest ‘Silmarillion’, §8)

This quote from is from the next version of the Silmarillion myths, The Book of Lost Tales being the first. The fact that the Eagles are out of reach of Balrogs means that the Balrogs cannot fly.

These were the first made of his creatures: their hearts were of fire, and they had whips of flame. The Gnomes in later days named them Balrogs.

-HoME V: The Lost Road and Other Writings,
The Quenta Silmarillion, Ch. 3(a)


But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; for until that day no creatures of his cruel thought had yet assailed the air.

-HoME V: The Lost Road and Other Writings,
The Quenta Silmarillion, Conclusion

These quotes originate in the last of the Silmarillion revisions before Tolkien began to write The Lord of the Rings. In the conclusion, we see that there are winged dragons, the first of Morgoth’s creatures to fly. Now, as has been shown in a previous section, and quoted again here, at this time in the development of the mythos Balrogs were created by Morgoth. Therefore, it is not possible that Balrogs can fly at this time. Now, since Balrogs at this time could not fly, they must not have wings. This is because up to this point wings have only existed in Tolkien’s works for purposes of flight, and also that Balrogs have been proven to have not had wings in their earliest conception. With no reason to have wings and no stated addition of wings, it must be taken as truth that the Balrogs of this version of the Silmarillion stories do not have wings.

During the writing of The Lord of the Rings

There is no mention of wings in Draft ‘A’ of The Bridge, nor in Draft ‘B’. The word appears first in Draft ‘C’, in a quote that states ‘the Balrog halted facing him, and the shadow about him reached out like great wings’.
This is undeniably a simile. As per the reasoning at the end of the last
section, Balrogs in Draft ‘C’ of The Bridge cannot have wings.

In The Lord of the Rings

There are several ways to show that the Balrog of Moria did not have wings.

The first method is through examination of the figurative nature of the passage.
Here follow a selection of quotes from The Bridge of Khazad-dûm.

The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs.

it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, or man-shape maybe, yet greater;

It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it.

For a moment the Orcs quailed and the fiery shadow halted.

His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.

With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished.

The first mention of the shadow of the Balrog is that it is ‘something dark as a cloud’. The word cloud appears again later, with light from the fiery chasm
fading ‘as if a cloud bent over it.’

The second mention, the second quote above, describes the Balrog as ‘like a great shadow’, with a qualifying statement. This is a simile. However, later the term ‘fiery shadow’ is used, and it is clearly referring to the Balrog. But the Balrog is not a shadow, but ‘like’ a shadow. Tolkien, however, has used this simile to create an ongoing metaphor. There are three further mentions of the ‘shadow’ during the encounter.

A later quote says ‘the shadow about [the Balrog] reached out like two vast
wings’. This is another simile. After Gandalf’s speech, the text states that
‘[the Balrog’s] wings were spread from wall to wall’. But there is no previous
mention of other wings, so the only logical step, given that no earlier
conception of Balrogs had wings, is that the word here is referring back to the simile, and that the wings are not real.

It has on occasion been argued that Tolkien would not use a metaphor that derived from a simile, as that is clumsy, and so the wings must be real wings. However, it has been shown that Tolkien not only did use a metaphor that is derived from a previous simile, but that such a device was used in the very same passage.
The reference, of course, is to the ‘shadow’ introduced with simile linking it
to the Balrog and then used in place of the Balrog.

Therefore, there is not only evidence that Tolkien used the same terms repeatedly as figurative language in this encounter, but that he specifically used a metaphor from a previous simile. Therefore there is no reason to doubt that the second mention of ‘wings’ in fact refers to the ‘shadow about [the Balrog]’. Thus, the Balrog of Moria does not have wings.

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

The second method to disproving that the Balrog had wings is to look critically at the paragraph with the second mention of wings, and so to fully understand all of the parts. It follows:

‘The Balrog made no answer.’ Gandalf had just finished his speech. This
speaks for itself. Or rather, doesn’t.

‘The fire in it seemed to die,’ The Balrog is either dampening its own
flames, or obscuring them.
‘but the darkness grew.’ The shadow of the Balrog is increasing in
size, like it did when it ‘reached out’ before.

‘It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge,’ The Balrog is advancing towards Gandalf. ‘and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height,’ As shown in the section regarding height, the Balrog is providing an illusion as growth, as Gandalf did. This growth quite possibly relies on the darkness. Gandalf, it should be noted, appeared to grow in ‘wavering firelight’.

‘and its wings were spread from wall to wall;’ This will be analyzed after the rest of the passage, as it is the part in question.

‘but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom’ If ‘but the darkness grew’ is the only preceding mention of it becoming darker, this makes little sense, especially ‘still’, which implies something had happened that would imply otherwise. If Gandalf is glimmering in the gloom, the gloom has to have happened. The gloom would be the fire dimming, the darkness increasing, the Balrog moving itself (and the shadow about it) forward towards Gandalf, the illusion of height derived from darkness, and the shadow spreading out as metaphorical ‘wings’.

‘he seemed small, and altogether alone’ If the Balrog appears larger, Gandalf in turns appears smaller.

‘grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.’ Not only are storms violent, but they are dark clouds, and the shadow of the Balrog has already been referred to as a cloud, and seen to extend in front of it; it did, after all, obscure the light of the fire from the chasm before the
Balrog leapt across.

So, we see that each individual part of this passage in some way increases the darkening effect the Balrog has. All parts are referring back to the shadow. Therefore, either there is a new mention of real wings not associated with the shadow amidst a passage almost overflowing with references to the shadow, or the mention of wings is just another way of describing the growing shadow that is the central focus of this passage. The latter seems most likely, so the Balrog of Moria does not have wings.


The third method is a simple discussion of scale. As shown in the section regarding height, the Balrog is less than seven feet tall. The chasm over which the bridge spanned was fifty feet across. Given that it was a chasm, this means that the hall itself must have been much wider. To literally reach from wall to wall, the Balrog would need a wingspan the width of the hall, at the very least. Assuming that the chasm was only twice as long as it was across, the hall itself would be one hundred feet wide, which would mean that the Balrog would need a wingspan of one hundred feet. So taking generous measurements for the height of the Balrog and a very low estimate for the size of the hall, the Balrog would need a wingspan more than fourteen times its own height. That would be absurd. Therefore, since the Balrog could not have had such a wingspan, the idea that the quote regarding the wings spreading from wall to wall is literal must be rejected. And if the quote is not literal, there is little reason to believe the wings existed, especially in light of all other evidence. Thus, the Balrog of Moria does not have wings.

After The Lord of the Rings

Deep in forgotten places that cry was heard. Far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, the Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord. Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as tempest of fire.

Then Ungoliant quailed, and she turned to flight, belching black vapours to cover her; but the Balrogs pursued her with whips of flame into the Mountains of Shadow, until Morgoth recalled them. Then her webs were shorn asunder, and Morgoth was released, and he returned to Angband.
-HoME X: Morgoth’s Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, (II) The Second Phase, Of the Thieves’ Quarrel, §18-19

Of all of the writings of Tolkien after The Lord of the Rings, there is only one
passage which seems to imply that Balrogs had wings and could fly. However, there are two lines of reasoning to show that there is no such implication.

The first line of reasoning involves analysis of the wording itself. The Balrogs
begin underground in Angband. ‘Swiftly they arose’ speaks of their ascent out of those subterranean halls, to the surface. They ‘pass with winged speed over Hithlum’. But ‘to pass over’ means to travel across, not to travel above; Fingolfin’s horse, when that Elf went to challenge Melkor, is stated to have ‘passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith’. And ‘with winged speed’ is figurative language, meaning ‘speed as if with wings’. It merely means that the Balrogs are travelling quickly, and if anything denies the idea that they have wings, for if one has wings, it is oneself that is winged, not one’s ‘speed’.

The second line of reasoning involves the history of the passage. The Balrogs had rescued Morgoth from Ungoliant from the very first version of the story that had her threaten him, found in The Earliest ‘Silmarillion’. In that version and the next, Orcs are with the Balrogs. When Orcs become absent in the third version of the rescue, it is not because Balrogs learned how to fly and so leave the Orcs behind, but because Tolkien decided that Orcs would be made at a later point, and they could not have helped Morgoth escape before he made them. This is evidence that Balrogs, and even Orcs, are quick enough on ground to come to Morgoth’s aid, and so denies the idea that the speed of flight would be necessary to rescue Morgoth before Ungoliant overcame him completely. As such, there is no reason to believe, from this passage, that Balrogs could fly, and so no reason to believe that they had wings.

In conclusion, Balrogs did not have wings in their earliest conception. Throughout the various rewritings and new versions of the stories, there is no evidence that they gained wings and there is no evidence in any passages that they had wings. Because of this, there is no reason at all to believe they had wings. Therefore, Balrogs do not have wings.

[hamishspence]

The third method is a simple discussion of scale. As shown in the section regarding height, the Balrog is less than seven feet tall.

Specifics? There may have been a reference to it being "no more than man-high" but that was cut.

In The Book of Lost Tales:

"Then Glorfindel's left hand sought a dirk, and this he thrust up that it pierced the Balrog’s belly nigh his own face (for that demon was double his stature)…."

so 12-14 ft might be closer, not 7.

[Belingorm]

On the Height of Balrogs

In The Lord of the Rings, when the Balrog of Moria is first seen and recognized, we are told the following about it.

What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it.


-The Fellowship of the Ring, The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Personal opinions as to the meaning of that passage has produced opinions as ranging from the size of a human to the size of a house. But what is within reason? Let us view the evolution of Balrog height from Tolkien’s texts themselves. The first account of Balrogs can be now found in the Fall of Gondolin in the second volume of The Book of Lost Tales.

Then Glorfindel’s left hand sought a dirk, and this he thrust up that it pierced the Balrog’s belly nigh his own face (for that demon was double his stature); and it shrieked, and fell backwards from the rock, and falling clutched Glorfindel’s yellow locks beneath his cap, and those twain
fell into the abyss.

-HoME
II: The Books of Lost Tales II, The Fall of Gondolin<br style="">
<br style="">

Thus, as of 1916-7, we know that Tolkien had Balrogs of somewhere between twelve and fourteen feet tall (assuming Glorfindel was between six and seven feet tall). We also know that this view persisted until the time of the writing of The Lord of the Rings. For Tolkien in the Quenta references the aforementioned writing, showing that his conception of matters, including Balrogs, is unchanged.

Of the deeds of desperate valour done there, by the
chieftains of the noble houses and their warriors, and not least by Tuor, is
much told in The Fall of Gondolin; of the death of Rog without the
walls; and of the battle of Ecthelion of the Fountain with Gothmog lord of
Balrogs in the very square of the king, where each slew the other; and of the defense of the tower of Turgon by the men of his household, until the tower was overthrown; and mighty was its fall and the fall of Turgon in its ruin.


-HoME IV: The Shaping of Middle-earth, The Quenta, §16

Chronologically, the next instance we have of any indication of Balrog stature is in the first drafting of the confrontation between Durin’s Bane and Gandalf in Khazad-dûm, where we are told:

A figure strode to the fissure, no more than man-high and yet terror seemed to go before it.

-HoME VII: The Treason of Isengard, The
Bridge, Draft 'A'

Since Glorfindel was not a Dwarf, this is a sudden and rather startling change. Balrogs, in one sentence, are now half as tall as before. Now, since this is still at a time when Tolkien conceived of Balrogs as a race of many thousands, it would make no sense for some members of the race to be twice as tall as others, so this idea cannot be written off as merely being a different, smaller Balrog than the one Glorfindel fought in BoLT.

But Tolkien soon changed the height, a bit more with every draft of the
encounter, and also with a note following Draft ‘A’ that allows us to
understand the context of all the changes.

Alter description of Balrog. It seemed to be of man’s shape, but its form could not be plainly discerned. It felt larger than it looked.


-HoME VII: The Treason of Isengard, The Bridge, note following Draft 'A'<br style="">
<br style="">


of man-shape maybe, and not much larger


-HoME VII: The Treason of Isengard, The Bridge, Draft 'B'



and not much greater


-HoME VII: The Treason of Isengard, The Bridge, Draft 'C'

The note tells us that the Balrog cannot be seen clearly (due to the shadow
about it that was introduced in Draft ‘B’), but that its presence was more than its substance. Through the note following Draft ‘A’, it is seen that the
‘maybe’ of Draft ‘B’ is due to the obscuring nature of the shadow, and that the Balrog does indeed still have a man-shape. ‘Man-shape’ has also replaced
‘man-high’ though because it is ‘not much larger’ we know that shape still encompasses height, so the Balrog is still essentially ‘man-high’.

Now we have a Balrog that is not much larger than man-high, but that appears larger than it is. In Draft ‘C’, ‘larger’ becomes ‘greater’, but there is no reason to believe that the idea that this ‘greater’ is somewhat due perception has changed.

This brings us back to the account in the Lord of the Rings. The difference
from ‘C’ to the published text is that it is, instead of ‘not much greater’,
‘yet greater’. It should not be clear that the word ‘greater’ implies little to
nothing as to the Balrog’s actual height, but primarily concerns the feel of
the Balrog and its aura of darkness. Thus, we arrive with a Balrog of about
man-high (6’4” by Numenorean measurements) and perhaps a few inches larger, but certainly no more than that.

The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall.

-The Fellowship of the Ring, The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill.

-The Fellowship of the Ring, A Journey in the Dark<br style="">
<br style="">

The idea that the Balrog could become ‘a great height’ has often been used as evidence that Balrogs are, in fact, quite large. But it was illusion. Just as Gandalf demonstrates, while fighting the wolves that attacked the party on the western side of the Misty Mountains, the Balrog appears to be greater than it is. It is worth noting that the ‘darkness’, the aura of shadow, increases as the Balrog appears to become larger, as it was introduced in the same drafting that begat the idea that the Balrog ‘felt larger than it looked’. There is, therefore, no reason to believe that the Balrog gained height, unless one believes Gandalf did as well. And so Balrogs remain at the previously stated stature, somewhere around or just shy of six and a half feet tall.

[hamishspence]

The drafts could be taken as indicating a change of conception of size. Still, the book is less explicit.

[Gurgeh]

If you really think that it's important to quibble over physical details of the Balrog's appearance, then I think you've somewhat missed the point.

[hymer]

@ Belingorm: Slightly jarring with the loss of format, but generally readable. Thanks.
I don't really agree with everything, though. The past drafts, for example, are only really useful (as opposed to interesting) in trying to interpret the published text. The analysis doesn't seem to take the possibility of drastic, unannounced changes into account ('the problem of ros', basically). Much of it is igoing over texts that, in the end, were not published.
That aside, I agree with the conclusions, though I think one is hasty: That if Gandalf didn't increase in size, then the Balrog didn't either. Gandalf's size increase is 'seeming' according to the text, while the Balrog's drawing himself up to a great height isn't. I think the same thing as the author, that neither actually changed physical size, and it was rather their inherent power showing. But I wouldn't conclude that there is 'no reason' to believe otherwise, as the text shows a distinct difference with the word 'seemed' in one case and not in the other.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

For the calculation of the CR of the Balrog alone, what should the CR of a creature that destroyed the greatest dwarf-kingdom of Middle Earth be? It wasn't the goblins that originally killed the dwarves - it was the Balrog. And the old dwarf kingdom of Moria made Erebor look like a country cottage.

Hence CR 20.

[hamishspence]

There was a LOTR homebrew thread here:

LOTR homebrew thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162601.jpg)

that's had a go- it did go with Huge, flying balrogs though.

And is a bit old- so shouldn't be necroed.

[hymer]

@ OP: After seeing much debate and thinking about it, I'd be hard pressed to give you a specific number. It depends on the world it's in. Are there 20th level liches? Then the Balrog should probably be CR 30. Is it E6? CR 12-15 can probably do it.
As a concept, I'd place them in the very top tier of CRs possible, whatever that is. Defeating one of these is pretty much impossible for mortals, and only the mightiest of heroes and non-god beings have managed to do so - and it tends to cost them their life even then.
As stats based on what we see, I wouldn't like to actually give them a CR. I doubt pouring Middle-earth into a D&D mold is likely to give a good figure.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Something like this?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14893869#post14893869

[Shining Wrath]

First, don't go by the movie Glamdring. Glamdring wasn't electrical, it was closer to "Holy". Crafted by the elves of the hidden kingdom of Gondolin, it was designed to kill followers of Morgoth. Like Balrogs.

The books vary in their description of the number and characteristics of Balrogs. The canonical LotR version is a Maiar (angel), has a variable body size and shape, and uses flaming weapons. It's casting power is a close match for Gandalf's, who is likewise a Maiar.

I'd go with:
Size Large but variable at will.
Outsider.
Str: 30. Con: 50 Dex: 30
Int: 40 Wis: 40 Chr: 40
Initiative: +15
Speed: 50 (in Silmarillion, a fast thing is described as "swift(er) than Balrogs")
No flight
Weapons: flaming sword, flaming whip (like Balor)
Casts spells as 20th level Wizard AND 10th level Cleric (hey - fallen angel)
CR: Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas & Gimli together were useless before it. Aragorn who later beat Sauron in a staring contest to wrest control of the seeing stone and had the magic sword that had defeated Sauron? Worthless. I'm thinking 25+ here.

[Fable Wright]

We see almost nothing of the Balrog in Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion doesn't give much more information. How on earth would you determine what it's capable of?

In any event, D&D 3.5 models Lord of the Rings extremely poorly.
Not really, if you run an E6 game. E6, IMO, models LotR extremely well.

For the calculation of the CR of the Balrog alone, what should the CR of a creature that destroyed the greatest dwarf-kingdom of Middle Earth be? It wasn't the goblins that originally killed the dwarves - it was the Balrog. And the old dwarf kingdom of Moria made Erebor look like a country cottage.

Hence CR 20.
I would disagree, and put it at around CR 10 assuming Lord of the Rings is an E6 setting. With crowd control SLAs like Fear, which normal people couldn't get, he could keep melee fighters away from himself, and tear through any mages that would stand against him. Actually, something like a Spellwarped Hill Giant with a magic sword and whip, good feat selection and had the vestige of Ashardalon bound to him would model the Balrog rather well, and probably would be able to take down a dwarf kingdom. Rock Throwing would be able to take out load-bearing pillars, causing the roof to fall on mages (or just hitting them with rocks when they show themselves, and ignoring their magic with a high spell resistance), Fear would get all but the best of dwarven fighters to flee, Damage Reduction would keep ranged weapons from hurting him, and so on. With a good bottleneck like a mineshaft, he could probably take on the armies of Moria single-handedly. If they left him alone, he would get out of the cave, start murdering civilians and fighters indiscriminently, and eventually be made to retreat back into the mineshaft where he has the advantage of a bottleneck again, where he has the advantage. It would be a long fight, but the Balrog would probably win out, in the end.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

A CR 10 can't kill an entire city. CR 10 by definition means "equal to about four CR 6 creatures" or "a very hard fight for a lvl 6 party".


If it can kill an entire city, then it isn't CR 10.

[Yora]

It can just be smart, lucky, and fighting against PCs that make blunders. Almost anything can be killed by anything. Only specific immunities prevent that, CR is irrelevant.

[hymer]

While true, this merely throws the whole CR system out the window, rendering it and the thread moot. If we are to talk about what CR the Balrog might be, we have to use the CR system and claim that it can actually mean something.

[Lapak]

Not really, if you run an E6 game. E6, IMO, models E6 extremely well.I'm guessing you meant 'E6 models LotR extremely well' here. :smallwink:

I would disagree, and put it at around CR 10 assuming Lord of the Rings is an E6 setting. With crowd control SLAs like Fear, which normal people couldn't get, he could keep melee fighters away from himself, and tear through any mages that would stand against him. Actually, something like a Spellwarped Hill Giant with a magic sword and whip, good feat selection and had the vestige of Ashardalon bound to him would model the Balrog rather well, and probably would be able to take down a dwarf kingdom. Rock Throwing would be able to take out load-bearing pillars, causing the roof to fall on mages (or just hitting them with rocks when they show themselves, and ignoring their magic with a high spell resistance), Fear would get all but the best of dwarven fighters to flee, Damage Reduction would keep ranged weapons from hurting him, and so on. With a good bottleneck like a mineshaft, he could probably take on the armies of Moria single-handedly. If they left him alone, he would get out of the cave, start murdering civilians and fighters indiscriminently, and eventually be made to retreat back into the mineshaft where he has the advantage of a bottleneck again, where he has the advantage. It would be a long fight, but the Balrog would probably win out, in the end.DR and regeneration would go a very long way against lots of lower-level folks, I'd agree, but the deciding factor would be the supernatural qualities (DR certainly; Fear certainly; flaming aura probably) added to the big reason that E6 still doesn't quite model LotR well: spellcasting classes and the classes that replicate spell-type abilities are non-existent (for ordinary mortal characters.)

Moria didn't have any Clerics. It didn't have any Wizards. Or warlocks. Or Hexblades. If you add that limitation into an E6 environment, then yeah - a CR 10 with the correct resistance and crowd control powers is probably sufficient to deal with an army of purely non-magical melee types. If you have casters - even 6th level casters - then you need to punch it up to CR 15 or higher to deal with the complications that they bring.

[Ossian]

I'd lean more towards the high-teens or even low twenties. I can get behind Gimli, Legolas and Boromir being strong but not epic (they slay tons of orcs), so around levels 5-8, but Aragorn is a different cup of tea. He is 80 years old, has the bloodline of the dunedain, is equipped with a magic sword, goes un-armoured toe-to-toe with the Nazgul (if only briefly), wins the staring contest in the Palantir, and comes out of the Pelennor pretty much without a scratch. he is a seasoned ranger, and a veteran fighter. If he is at level (ranger 7 (it fits) + fighter 2 (veteran of many battles) + Prestige Paladin 4 (Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day (well, sort of...), Divine grace, lay on hands (big time), Aura of courage (if not him, who?), divine health (general badass), Turn undead (hmmmm it's a stretch, but I am thinking of the oathbreakers at Dunharrow)) so if he is level 13ish and he is STILL useless with the rest of the company to help him, and Gandalf to do the heavy artillery, the Balrog can easily be level 20.

Then again, maybe Gandalf was speaking in more general terms, and envisaged a bloody, risky and costly battle with too many liabilities (see the Hobbits, and especially Frodo, what would the Balrog do with the One Ring?). He may have just made a quick judgement call and decided to take on the big baddie all by himself

[Ashtagon]

His CR was equal to Gandalf's level.

Tell me Gandalf's level, and I'll tell you the balrog's CR.

[Spuddles]

What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it.

This is elephant shaped, maybe:
http://dunceacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/cartoon-elephant.png

Now, is it the size of an elephant?

[hymer]

His CR was equal to Gandalf's level.

Tell me Gandalf's level, and I'll tell you the balrog's CR.

I agree, but just for the nerdz:
Could be that the Balrog actually ought to be slightly over what Gandalf is capable of at that time. In that battle, he wields Glamdring and Narya, both of which must add something. He comes back White, and much closer to his native power, which is greater than what he is allowed to do when Grey. It's possible that the Balrog has no such restraints, but also possible that Gandalf has his restraints lifted while fighting a rogue Maia. In which case we do deal with several different CRs for Gandalf. :smallsmile: