What am I supposed to do? [Archive] - Page 5 - Giant in the Playground Forums

Trekkin

2013-04-07, 03:34 AM

Even so, Circle Chief didn't deserve a single moment of roleplaying from you guys.
I quite agree. In a weird way, though, it's turning out to have a very significant upside. This was such a horrible experience that it's sparked a lot of amazingly helpful discussions about what, precisely was wrong with it, and the Playground has helped with that.

For my own part, I had my first character in this campaign thrown indefinitely in military prison for overusing (double)-Bluff instead of guns to short-circuit a combat encounter, and OoC for being "too inventive", and that got me considering how to make that impossible, once I left on being informed that a) I "would not be getting [him] back, I can tell you that much RIGHT the hell now" and b) "it's goofballs like [me] that are the reason roleplaying XP is always tiny to discourage this". It also got me thinking about how I might deal with that in depressingly similar ways, and since then I've been working on designing encounters that are more receptive to multiple solution sets. We've also been talking a lot more about that Deadlands campaign, and others, trying to figure out why they worked when this one failed (and where they didn't), and I've taken away a lot from that about how intra-party conflict starts. It's also been helpful as a benchmark for where I've gone right, since I have a baseline to compare it to.

In a broader sense, it's highlighted Chief Circle's flaws nicely, and made them apparent enough that we're working on how best to approach him and get him help now. None of us doubt he needs it, not after this. He's not my friend anymore by any stretch of the word, but having finally seen how messed up he really is, I want to see him get better.

So...it's been bad. But it's been bad in a way that we're making excellent use of.

Alejandro

2013-04-07, 10:04 AM

For my own part, I had my first character in this campaign thrown indefinitely in military prison for overusing (double)-Bluff instead of guns to short-circuit a combat encounter, and OoC for being "too inventive"

HAHAHAHAHA.

Oh man, all of this is just rich. This guy really can't handle any deviation at all from exactly what he wants. Is he OCD, in real life?

Best advice I can give you, have fun games without this guy, don't feel sorry for him, and when you leave college, enjoy building rich real lives for yourselves. I can assure you that Mr. GM will, at best, end up crying into a takeout container in front of an anime marathon, while he blames everything in the multiverse except himself. That would be a good point for you to burst in, point, laugh, and then vanish. :)

Tiki Snakes

2013-04-07, 11:02 AM

Just a suggestion, it might be worth looking up the burning wheel books. Not so much for the system itself as some of the ideas its built around.

The one that springs to mind is that whenever possible you should fight the urge as DM to say no to things and instead say "yes, and".

Haven't had time to give it a go, but there are many interesting concepts in burning wheel that I intend to steal when I next run something.

(failed rolls leading to success at a cost or interesting complications rather than story-blocking failures, the idea of rolling once and letting it ride rather than rolling all manner of additional checks, resolving unimportant interludes with a single opposed combat test, opposed tests almost always involving some kind of compromise etc etc).

Arbane

2013-04-07, 11:07 AM

I quite agree. In a weird way, though, it's turning out to have a very significant upside. This was such a horrible experience that it's sparked a lot of amazingly helpful discussions about what, precisely was wrong with it, and the Playground has helped with that.

Good to hear you're trying to make lemonade of all this. On the bright side, now you have something to favorably compare every other campaign to...

In a broader sense, it's highlighted Chief Circle's flaws nicely, and made them apparent enough that we're working on how best to approach him and get him help now. None of us doubt he needs it, not after this. He's not my friend anymore by any stretch of the word, but having finally seen how messed up he really is, I want to see him get better.

So...it's been bad. But it's been bad in a way that we're making excellent use of.

Just remember, he's not your fault, and he's not your responsibility. If trying to help him turns into a sick system (http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html), ABANDON SHIP.

Tanuki Tales

2013-04-07, 01:28 PM

I have to say, the three of you are good people, awesome players and I'd kill to have folks of your caliber at any of my game tables.

Trekkin

2013-04-07, 02:35 PM

I have to say, the three of you are good people, awesome players and I'd kill to have folks of your caliber at any of my game tables.

:smallredface:

Thanks. It's good to know that, with everything we're trying to do.

Then again, it's not like we'd stop either way. For one thing, he's gotten really annoyingly preachy in 'victory'. Before it was just "I'm exactly the type of GM Gigax envisioned to run Tomb of Horrors, his greatest work" and now it's orders of magnitude worse.

It's also gotten mildly triggering. See, one of my most persistent nagging fears is that I'm a drain on everyone around me and they all have to exert effort to put up with me. Or something similar. Chief Circle has confirmed that his "high EQ is the only thing keeping him suffering through [my] nonsense". :smalleek: Then again, it's him, so...

jindra34

2013-04-07, 02:47 PM

EQ? Not IQ? What does that even mean? And yeah you really need to start just ignoring him.

Trekkin

2013-04-07, 02:50 PM

EQ? Not IQ? What does that even mean? And yeah you really need to start just ignoring him.

Emotional Quotient. It's the emotional equivalent to intelligence apparently?

jindra34

2013-04-07, 02:52 PM

Emotional Quotient. It's the emotional equivalent to intelligence apparently?

And here I thought we actually had reached the bottom of the madness. But NO, he has to be a near bottomless pit of maddening stupidity. If you want to help him, give him the number of a long time psychiatrist and then just leave him be.

Karnith

2013-04-07, 02:53 PM

Emotional Quotient. It's the emotional equivalent to intelligence apparently?
If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, it's generally referred to as Emotional Intelligence (EI) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence), but you've got the gist of it.

llehctim

2013-04-07, 03:11 PM

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, it's generally referred to as Emotional Intelligence (EI) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence), but you've got the gist of it.

Yeah I think EQ is something a little different, but more or less that, excepts its how the professor in one of the classes I am taking with you teaches it.

Trekkin

2013-04-07, 03:14 PM

And here I thought we actually had reached the bottom of the madness. But NO, he has to be a near bottomless pit of maddening stupidity. If you want to help him, give him the number of a long time psychiatrist and then just leave him be.

I did. He responded with "dude, [frell] off". So I'm considering my obligation discharged.

Oh, and a while ago I mentioned I had a friend in the RPG industry (I'm friends with myself, and I'm a consumer of RPG industry products) and I'd be happy to show anything he had of his system to said friend. Apparently he doesn't want his masterwork published by any 'second-rate operation', by which he means anyone but WOTC, because 'they won't get [his] product the exposure it deserves'.

He then accused me of trying to prop up my 'friend's' company by letting them pick his system clean of ideas. So that was fun.

So we may have to do without a review copy.

EDIT: Just to be needlessly clear, my views are not represented by purpletext. I like WOTC, but I don't consider them the be-all end-all of RPGs.

Shadowknight12

2013-04-07, 03:45 PM

In a broader sense, it's highlighted Chief Circle's flaws nicely, and made them apparent enough that we're working on how best to approach him and get him help now. None of us doubt he needs it, not after this. He's not my friend anymore by any stretch of the word, but having finally seen how messed up he really is, I want to see him get better.

So...it's been bad. But it's been bad in a way that we're making excellent use of.

You can't do it alone. The only way you will be able to penetrate the self-delusion is to strike when it's weakened. Wait until he's had a terrible week or month. Bide your time. Wait until he starts to fail at everything (we all have a week every so often where we randomly start failing at everything) and when his self-delusion kicks into survival mode and he starts to withdraw from the world in order to avoid more failure-lashes that strip away his carefully constructed self-delusion, have an honest, no holds barred heart to heart where you expose to him how horrible he is. If executed properly, that should shatter the self-delusion.

Only then he will be receptive to help.

Of course, you can wait until the world does this for you, but if he's stubborn or lucky enough, it might never happen.

137beth

2013-04-07, 04:10 PM

I did. He responded with "dude, [frell] off". So I'm considering my obligation discharged.

Oh, and a while ago I mentioned I had a friend in the RPG industry (I'm friends with myself, and I'm a consumer of RPG industry products) and I'd be happy to show anything he had of his system to said friend. Apparently he doesn't want his masterwork published by any 'second-rate operation', by which he means anyone but WOTC, because 'they won't get [his] product the exposure it deserves'.

He then accused me of trying to prop up my 'friend's' company by letting them pick his system clean of ideas. So that was fun.

So we may have to do without a review copy.

EDIT: Just to be needlessly clear, my views are not represented by purpletext. I like WOTC, but I don't consider them the be-all end-all of RPGs.

Wow...so he's afraid that some second-rate publisher will profit from...stealing his system and setting? Eek.

@above: I doubt that will work. If it takes awhile to happen, he will have altered his memory to say that everyone enjoyed the setting when they played it, and obviously Trekkin is just lying about not liking it so that he won't publish it and Trekkin could steal it.

So, did you explain to him that his clone dream probably won't happen in his lifespan?

Trekkin

2013-04-07, 04:14 PM

So, did you explain to him that his clone dream probably won't happen in his lifespan?

Thing of it is, I'm an optimist about the basic science being achievable, so I didn't emphatically shoot down the idea--and with him, anything that isn't a repeatedly shouted denial is approval.

Of course, anything that IS repeatedly shouted denial is also approval, just masked by jealousy, so it hardly matters.

ReaderAt2046

2013-04-07, 04:42 PM

Thing of it is, I'm an optimist about the basic science being achievable, so I didn't emphatically shoot down the idea--and with him, anything that isn't a repeatedly shouted denial is approval.

Of course, anything that IS repeatedly shouted denial is also approval, just masked by jealousy, so it hardly matters.

As I understand it, we are already technically capable of cloning, there are just too many transcription errors for it to be safe even on animals, let alone people. So we could clone Ao-Sue, but he'd have cancer and probably lose half his powers to genetic damage.

Feddlefew

2013-04-07, 04:48 PM

As I understand it, we are already technically capable of cloning, there are just too many transcription errors for it to be safe even on animals, let alone people. So we could clone Ao-Sue, but he'd have cancer and probably lose half his powers to genetic damage.

Long story short: It's hard to clone mammals. Even if he was successfully cloned, there are too many factors that effect personality for it to really be the same person.

Then we have epigentics to consider- because it doesn't really mater if some one has the same genes as you if they're being expressed differently. :smallsigh:

Trekkin

2013-04-07, 05:09 PM

Long story short: It's hard to clone mammals. Even if he was successfully cloned, there are too many factors that effect personality for it to really be the same person.

Then we have epigentics to consider- because it doesn't really mater if some one has the same genes as you if they're being expressed differently. :smallsigh:

This. I believe I said that the technology would exist to create many genetically identical (except for the inevitable mutations) copies of him within a decade or two, since that was what I was asked. That was as far as I went.

What he wants isn't cloning, but replicators, and that's much harder for many reasons.

EDIT: And so CT begins. There is a plan, I've been voted out of being part of it, and I know nothing. Whatever happens should at least be interesting.

137beth

2013-04-07, 06:08 PM

This. I believe I said that the technology would exist to create many genetically identical (except for the inevitable mutations) copies of him within a decade or two, since that was what I was asked. That was as far as I went.

What he wants isn't cloning, but replicators, and that's much harder for many reasons.

EDIT: And so CT begins. There is a plan, I've been voted out of being part of it, and I know nothing. Whatever happens should at least be interesting.
Also, he seems to want to be able to sync his experiences with his copies...:smalleek:

Also, who is the new DM this time?

Eldan

2013-04-07, 06:15 PM

Replicates with the same memories? Sorry to be disappoiting here. But I've took a few neurology courses. Even without them:

Not happening any time soon. We don't even know how memories work.

Trekkin

2013-04-07, 06:19 PM

Also, he seems to want to be able to sync his experiences with his copies...:smalleek:

Also, who is the new DM this time?

New DM?

It's still chief circle. The campaign that ended yesterday was a separate one, just with llehctim and eh02.

llehctim

2013-04-07, 06:38 PM

Replicates with the same memories? Sorry to be disappoiting here. But I've took a few neurology courses. Even without them:

Not happening any time soon. We don't even know how memories work.

Just to be clear this is a magical copy of him that is called a clone, look up simulacrum on d20srd and that's kindof similar, also the GM doesn't appear to be likely to show up to session.

PS: I apologize for repeating this but the direct approach was not a good idea, Trekkin, and you should not just assume you should do something, just because someone reccomended it on the thread (no offense to people giving recommendations), but that was not productive, although I wasn't really up for playing today anyway so I suppose that I will just deal with the fallout tomorrow when I have class with him.

Trekkin

2013-04-07, 07:01 PM

llehctim

2013-04-07, 07:31 PM

I told him to seek help, as plainly and unambiguously as I know how.

I've tried before, you know. If you waver, he brushes you off. If you offer reasons, he debates you till doomsday.

Apparently I struck a nerve, though. I'm not saying I'm absolved of blame here, but the fallout from this was completely unintended on my part.

And if he's dwelling on it, at least he's thinking about it.

I see why you did it and for someone else it might have worked for example the direct approach works well with you, because you like to get to the point, whereas the GM does not work like that, or something I don't know. At this point I fried my ability to be properly social and have decided to try not caring and focusing on work for a while, I doubt it will work, but at this stage I don't know what else to do.

Waspinator

2013-04-07, 07:47 PM

Genetically-identical human clones will probably be possible in the foreseeable future. They might not be too healthy though, thanks to telomere issues. The whole copying your mind thing though? Hypothetically physically possible, but so far beyond current technology that my short answer would be "no". My long answer would be "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No."

Tanuki Tales

2013-04-07, 09:38 PM

Arbane

2013-04-07, 10:00 PM

I'm sorry, but from what I've read, nothing short of the direct approach would even scratch the Indigo Child bubble that Chief Circle has built around himself. Though honestly, I think getting a third party involved to get him help would be more appropriate than the direct approach.

I'd suggest getting his family involved. They won't LIKE hearing what a waste of DNA they spawned, but he can't just ignore them the way he did Trekkin.

JoshuaZ

2013-04-07, 10:16 PM

I'd suggest getting his family involved. They won't LIKE hearing what a waste of DNA they spawned, but he can't just ignore them the way he did Trekkin.

I don't think this is a good idea. Some people take more time to mature than others. This may be more a maturity issue than anything else. I'm not sure an intervention is necessary, and a few more years in college or the real world may correct some of these issues on their own.

Trekkin

2013-04-07, 10:26 PM

llehctim

2013-04-07, 10:30 PM

I don't think this is a good idea. Some people take more time to mature than others. This may be more a maturity issue than anything else. I'm not sure an intervention is necessary, and a few more years in college or the real world may correct some of these issues on their own.

From what I am led to believe, even if he needed psyschological help (which I make no claims either way, because I have minimal expertise in the field and do not think I have enough data to draw a proper conclusion). It is impossible to make him get that without him first wanting to be helped, and telling someone to get help is one of the most ineffective way to actually get them to do something they don't want to do (Learned during my time as a boy scouts and any other time I needed someone to do things for themselves , myself or the group). The direct approach seems like the simpler path, but its got more traps than the tomb of horrors, while the indirect approach seems glacially slow. Or something, ugh, whatever I have come to peace with the fact that I don't have control over what other people do, and I am glad, because that would be too much for me to handle.

EDIT: clearly when I was making my character in real life I should not have put charisma as my dump stat ...

Tiki Snakes

2013-04-07, 10:35 PM

llehctim, I see where you are coming from here.

But remember, the slow route is no safer. Infact, it holds much greater chance of harm to you, the person trying to assist. It means you will get more tangled up in events and they may well drag you down as well.

There comes a point where the responsible thing to do is to cut ties and let everyone go their separate ways. It is neither your right nor your responsibility to fix him, the most you can do is offer help guidance or encouragement. But if you can't honestly say there is any friendship remaining, it would probably be healthier to simply draw a line.

Ultimately, you both need to make this decision for yourself. There isn't really a right choice, though.

Trekkin

2013-04-07, 10:40 PM

I gave him the link. He blocked me for it. I'm done.

Malrone

2013-04-07, 11:13 PM

I gave him the link. He blocked me for it. I'm done.

And I cannot blame you.

Deffers

2013-04-07, 11:21 PM

Either the gates of hell are opened, or...

No, there's no or. The gates of hell are opened. I mean, worst-case scenario, he actually replies here, and if he's polite that actually becomes worse because, well, then there's this whole decorum thing going on and sooner or later it'll be a great big mess, whereas if he's upset it'll be over faster. The best case scenario is he refuses to comment for some reason and you've just eternally inhatiated yourself to him. It's like "ingratiated" but with hatefulness instead of gratefulness. Or something.

llehctim

2013-04-07, 11:29 PM

Deffers

2013-04-07, 11:33 PM

...Oh. Thank God, then. That's... wait. The link to the link?

...Well, that's odd.

Trekkin

2013-04-07, 11:40 PM

...Oh. Thank God, then. That's... wait. The link to the link?

...Well, that's odd.

The link I sent was to our student counseling center, yes.

EDIT: Don't worry, though. Four people know him personally and know of this thread. Chief Circle will find out eventually, and then try to get me in prison, expelled, fired, or whatever else he can do.

Sith_Happens

2013-04-08, 12:25 AM

Rest In Peace, Winrich Reichardt. You were one of my best RPG characters to date.

http://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/15/83/19/29/kamina13.jpg

You know, everything about how Chief Circle's been handling the Cthulutech campaign makes a lot more sense now. It wasn't Trekkin he was afraid of, it was YOU.:smallcool:

Also, I find it incredibly amusing that after designing Ao-Sue to be the most invincible, omnipotent, and deliberately setting-warping character he could possibly imagine, he thought it was a good idea to make most of that power (Su) instead of (Ex).

Trekkin

2013-04-08, 12:26 AM

http://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/15/83/19/29/kamina13.jpg

You know, everything about how Chief Circle's been handling the Cthulutech campaign makes a lot more sense now. It wasn't Trekkin he was afraid of, it was YOU.:smallcool:

Also, I find it incredibly amusing that after designing Ao-Sue to be the most invincible, omnipotent, and deliberately setting-warping character he could possibly imagine, he thought it was a good idea to make most of that power (Su) instead of (Ex).

He was afraid of Winrich in a campaign Winrich wasn't even in...:smalleek:

And if he was scared of the sniper why'd he keep giving the sniper what he actually requisitioned and blocking me from making things?
EDIT: Or did you mean EH02? Because he's that determined more or less all the time, so that would make sense.

Elite Hunter 02

2013-04-08, 12:33 AM

Trekkin

2013-04-08, 12:40 AM

Doesn't matter what type of character I build. You give me a setting, I will analyze the crap out of it for advantages to take. Not quite as good as Trekkin is, but I can be just as much of a pain :smalltongue:

Until he tries to take things away from you until you stop trying, and you end up trying to bleed out in a tactically useful direction because you're just that hard to keep down.

Then you're much more of a concern than I can be, I think.

Elite Hunter 02

2013-04-08, 12:47 AM

Until he tries to take things away from you until you stop trying, and you end up trying to bleed out in a tactically useful direction because you're just that hard to keep down.

Then you're much more of a concern than I can be, I think.

Meh, I'm a persistent bastard in game, remember? I just hate open conflict with friends. Of course, if they start digging their hole deeper as I try planning around obstacles, I don't even need to say anything. Anyway, with my combat focused characters, I'll still wreck all the crud around me regardless of the situation. I'm good at that....especially where explosions are concerned. :smallbiggrin:

Driderman

2013-04-08, 02:59 AM

I said it some pages back and I'm going to say it again: The best thing you can do for this guy, in my opinion, is to stop enabling his delusional power-fantasy, quit his game, tell him why and get him some help.
Right now, anyone participating in his game is pretty much just helping him increase his level of insanity by enabling his delusion.

Personally I think the direct approach, and involving a professional or his family (although there's a good chance his issues stem from his family, to some degree), is a good bet and Trekkin likely did the right thing.
You guys will only be in college together for so many more years and the potential shock of being confronted with his delusions in the uncaring real world when he doesn't have as understanding "friends" might be really bad for him. Also, giving him more time to solidify his mental issues is NOT a good thing.

The problem with only helping people who want help is that there's a lot of people out there who need help, but never get to the point of wanting it without massive interference from family and friends. You need to help people like that get to the point where they realise they need help and you don't do that by letting them continue their downward spiral.
Those of you who are still interacting with the crazy GM might want to consider speaking to a professional yourselves, to get some suggestions on how to handle this thing.

Edit: I don't think I made it clear enough: It is my belief that you need to remove this conflict from the context of a game, and need to make crazy GM realise that the problem isn't the game, but in fact that he has actual, psychological issues that he should probably seek help for. Stop playing the game, it's a shield he uses to downgrade any suggestions towards his (lack of) mental stability as merely being disagreements over a game.

Jornophelanthas

2013-04-08, 05:37 AM

I agree with llehctim on how to deal with this DM and his alleged mental issues.

If he has any narcissist traits (whether these are "normal personality traits" or pathological), he will flat out refuse any suggestion that anything is wrong with him, that anything could ever be wrong with him, or that he will ever need someone's help for anything (except by personal preference). Furthermore, he will consider the suggestion itself a personal attack, and will rationalize it away as a hateful act by the person making the suggestion.

(Trekkin, most likely he will consider you a personal enemy from now on. At least until such time as you come crawling back to him, saying he was right about everything all along and begging for forgiveness, which he can then magnanimously grant or arrogantly refuse. Also, don't do this.)

In fact, people with narcissistic personality disorders are notoriously hard to treat, because they actually require psychological treatment to be willing to accept psychological treatment. Therefore, this is unlikely to happen even in the best of cases.

Fortunately, there is hardly any need to treat such people from a societal point of view, because they rarely become more disruptive/menacing than by being generally unpleasant company. People they associate with on a daily basis (e.g. family, friends, colleagues) might suffer, but unless a person descends into the depths of psychopathy AND acts out on immoral impulses, a narcissist can function reasonably well within society.

---

I can offer only two pieces of advice at this point:
1. Stop trying to fix him, even if he does end up having some kind of mental issue. Accept him for who he is, or stop associating with him.
2. Follow Driderman's advice and talk to the student counselor yourself, if you need convincing of point 1.
3. Any kind of intervention is NOT advised, except if it is initiated by either his family and close friends, or the local authorities, and only if he is a danger to himself or others (which I believe is not the case).

Remember, the pathological inability to entertain a group of players as a DM is NOT something that typically requires the attention of mental healthcare professionals. Not even the accompanying delusion of being the best DM / RPG system designer in the universe qualifies.
Now, if he actually believes that he can/should replicate himself into multiple copies through cloning technology, and that this will enable him to take over the world (as well as several non-existing worlds) by using antique Asian swords, AND THEN STARTS ACTING ON THESE BELIEFS, he may be considered a danger to himself, and intervention may be required.

Trekkin

2013-04-08, 06:43 AM

(Trekkin, most likely he will consider you a personal enemy from now on. At least until such time as you come crawling back to him, saying he was right about everything all along and begging for forgiveness, which he can then magnanimously grant or arrogantly refuse. Also, don't do this.)

Having previously dealt with him when he felt slighted, I can confirm that this is the general pattern. Even when I don't start out apologizing for everything, that's what he inevitably hears and repeats.

I feel oddly disinclined to go through that again just to have him talk at me for two more months.

Alejandro

2013-04-08, 09:41 AM

Trekkin, you did the right thing. We should all be cautious here to not provide literal medical/psychological advice, as that is not allowed and we likely aren't fully qualified anyway. But, general advice is totally OK. That said, you did the right thing.

When you have a person with a big problem, the thing they cannot stand most is for someone they associated with or respected in some way to hold up a mirror to it, or to point it out, like the child saying the Emperor has no clothes. What they want is for everyone to play along with them, accommodate them, and thus normalize their situation.

I'll use a way, way less serious, simpler example from my own life. I have a friend who loves to play in games I GM, and says so regularly. This person was also absolutely terrible at email, phones, everything, such that you could email them 5 or 6 days in advance about an upcoming game, and they'd never reply to say 'yes I am coming' or 'no I am not' or anything else you asked for, even directly. This got very irritating for planning purposes, from encounter strength to how much food to cook.

At first, I enabled it, by emailing and calling more and more often until we got the information we needed. But that didn't solve the problem, it simply let this friend continue his poor behavior. Then, I wised up, and simply said 'you will get your notice about games in a timely fashion, so you can plan to attend and let us know. We all have busy lives, so it's courteous for us to let you know ahead of time, and likewise from you. You've said you love to come to the games, so if you really do, you'll follow through.'

At first, it didn't work, and he stopped showing up, because we were no longer enabling him. But when he saw that 'hey, now I'm not gaming at all' and realized we were willing to move on and stop enabling him, he made the decision to change, and now communicates with us in a timely manner and is a great member of the group.

Chief Circle, like my friend, has to want to change; no one else can make him. And usually, they won't want to change until the alternatives suck unbearably.

Driderman

2013-04-08, 09:45 AM

Remember, the pathological inability to entertain a group of players as a DM is NOT something that typically requires the attention of mental healthcare professionals. Not even the accompanying delusion of being the best DM / RPG system designer in the universe qualifies.
Now, if he actually believes that he can/should replicate himself into multiple copies through cloning technology, and that this will enable him to take over the world (as well as several non-existing worlds) by using antique Asian swords, AND THEN STARTS ACTING ON THESE BELIEFS, he may be considered a danger to himself, and intervention may be required.

As I understood it though, the subject believes himself to be psychic... Which could be consider a sign of him needing to speak with a professional. I'm not saying he needs to be committed to an asylum, but the vibe I'm getting is that his guy really needs some professional help.

Zenthar

2013-04-08, 10:33 AM

The amount of social awkwardness in this thread is amazing.

llehctim

2013-04-08, 10:35 AM

As I understood it though, the subject believes himself to be psychic... Which could be consider a sign of him needing to speak with a professional. I'm not saying he needs to be committed to an asylum, but the vibe I'm getting is that his guy really needs some professional help.

To be fair, its less that he thinks hes psychic (in any noticeable way that affects his life) but that he thinks he has to potential to become psychic in a setting where psychics exist. In a similar fashion that I figure in a world where magic exists I could probably figure out how to use it after being taught for a bit or reading about it enough (assuming non-innate magic).

EDIT: and yes, there is alot of social awkwardness in this game, which is one of the issues since none of us are specialists in communication (cha is a dump stat for mages/engineers/scientists a majority of the time)

Feddlefew

2013-04-08, 10:44 AM

I've cut ties with an egomaniac before. Although the specific reasons were... different, shall we say, and they were extremely socially adept.

It was during high school, and I did force them to get counseling before, so I can say from experience that unless you have proof that they're a danger to themselves and/or others*, they have to decide to help themselves.

*Don't ask.Please.

So your DM actually thinks he could take over and rule the world by cloning himself? :smallconfused:

Trekkin

2013-04-08, 10:46 AM

To be fair, its less that he thinks hes psychic (in any noticeable way that affects his life) but that he thinks he has to potential to become psychic in a setting where psychics exist. In a similar fashion that I figure in a world where magic exists I could probably figure out how to use it after being taught for a bit or reading about it enough (assuming non-innate magic).

You may be a bit off the mark there. As he explained to me, he believes he has the capacity to manipulate loosely defined 'energy fields' to accomplish tangible things, most of them from the standard book of things woo can do; specific examples cited include fatigue relief, although he's hinted at claircognizance before.

Now, I'm not saying definitively that stuff doesn't exist. I want to, but technically there's no absolute proof of a negative. I am saying it is incredibly likely he can't do what he claims, and to the best of my knowledge none of what he's tried has ever provably worked. Certainly none of what he claimed to try on me ever did anything. In retrospect staying quiet out of respect for his beliefs while he shut his eyes and pointed at me in the middle of the dining hall that night was probably a misjudgment on my part.

And as I understand it, he thinks that cloning himself would be the ideal way for the world to be ruled, and he's asked me before how feasible parts of it would be.

Alejandro

2013-04-08, 11:07 AM

Ha.

Yes, whatever mystical powers he wants to say he has. All that is, is him directing attention away from his own problems by saying 'look at this shiny thing I say I can do.'

Let him rot, focus your energy and time on bettering yourself and your life.

Jornophelanthas

2013-04-08, 11:19 AM

If someone actually believes that the best way to have the world governed is by cloning himself several times, and using these clones' somehow manifest powers of mind control (optionally enhanced by Japanese swords), then that is nothing but a delusional fantasy this person has to amuse himself.

As long as science does not actually progress to the point where human cloning becomes a real possibility and/or psychic abilities can be empirically proven or disproven, he appears to be content to just bide his time in the status quo. At some point, he may start saving money for cryogenic suspension in the event these developments do not happen during his natural lifespan.

It is only if he starts making plans to sneak into government facilities to wave Japanese slashing weapons at world leaders in order to have them submit to his will, or harrasses geneticists to use his DNA in cloning experiments, that his environment has any duty to intervene to correct his behaviour. Barring that, any professional help he receives has to be voluntary on his part.

---

EDIT:
I am no psychiatrist, but perhaps it is prudent to look out for early signs of schizophrenia in him, as this tends to manifest in young adults between 18-25. Consider informing a student counselor if he starts accumulating an increasing number of increasingly severe signs in a relatively short amount of time.
(Things to look out for can be found on http://www.schizophrenia.com/earlysigns.htm, especially the "changes in behavior" section.)

I will stress that there is only a small chance that this is actually relevant. Sometimes unhealthy fantasies can escalate into a psychotic breakdown, but most of the time they just result in a delusional-yet-functional person.

Jacob.Tyr

2013-04-08, 01:09 PM

Now, I'm not saying definitively that stuff doesn't exist. I want to, but technically there's no absolute proof of a negative. I am saying it is incredibly likely he can't do what he claims, and to the best of my knowledge none of what he's tried has ever provably worked. Certainly none of what he claimed to try on me ever did anything. In retrospect staying quiet out of respect for his beliefs while he shut his eyes and pointed at me in the middle of the dining hall that night was probably a misjudgment on my part.

And as I understand it, he thinks that cloning himself would be the ideal way for the world to be ruled, and he's asked me before how feasible parts of it would be.

The great thing about burden of proof is that it lies on the person making the claim. So, y'know, you can definitively say that stuff doesn't exist.

The New Bruceski

2013-04-08, 01:10 PM

And as I understand it, he thinks that cloning himself would be the ideal way for the world to be ruled, and he's asked me before how feasible parts of it would be.

This is actually pretty common, though most folks don't go THAT far outside of a bit of wishful thinking. We have the world inside our own head, which we can see and understand and manipulate, and we have the world inside of others' heads, which we have to guess at via clumsy interaction. Particularly for those of us a bit more inept, it would be a relief if we could know everyone else thought the same way we did. I know I have friends I need to stumble through ideas with and a rare few (two by my last count, one of whom's my twin so he probably shouldn't) who just get me, one of us says something and the other can quickly pick up on what they mean.

In very (VERY) broad strokes, diplomacy as a whole can boil down to either "learn how they think" or "make them think like you" with the end goal of easy communication and understanding. Of course, the problem with the clone fantasy (as laid out in Calvin and Hobbes and many other places) is that we like to assume that exact clones of ourselves wold see us as Me-Prime and happily do things in our best interest.

Lord Torath

2013-04-08, 01:29 PM

In the AD&D (1st & 2nd) game's 8th Lvl Mage Spell Clone both the original and the clone were immediately aware of each other's existence, and one had to kill the other within a week or one of them would go insane or commit suicide. Could make it tough to use them to control you're empire...

I suspect Calvin may have run into a similar problem if he hadn't transmorgrified his clones into worms...

Trekkin

2013-04-08, 01:57 PM

Of course, the problem with the clone fantasy (as laid out in Calvin and Hobbes and many other places) is that we like to assume that exact clones of ourselves wold see us as Me-Prime and happily do things in our best interest.

And given this guy it's even less likely his hypothetical army would be unified.

JoshuaZ

2013-04-08, 02:04 PM

In very (VERY) broad strokes, diplomacy as a whole can boil down to either "learn how they think" or "make them think like you" with the end goal of easy communication and understanding. Of course, the problem with the clone fantasy (as laid out in Calvin and Hobbes and many other places) is that we like to assume that exact clones of ourselves wold see us as Me-Prime and happily do things in our best interest.

Is this true? I think I have the clone fantasy every so often, and I'm not under any illusion that they'd listen to Me Prime at all. It seems pretty appealing even without that bit. There might be awkward issues with which one ends up dating my girlfriend though.

llehctim

2013-04-08, 02:35 PM

I constantly dream with countless perspectives many of which are vehemently opposed to each other representing different parts of me in conflict.
I just realized why i dislike his utopia idea. It's incredibly similar the cybermen from doctor Who.

Cyber Controller: I will bring peace to the world. Everlasting peace. And unity. And uniformity.

Cyber Controller: I can set you free. Would you not want that? A life without pain?

Cyber Controller: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
The Doctor: I gave them back their souls! They can see what you've done, Lumic, AND IT'S KILLING THEM!

And by technicallity there was a 5% chance the clone spell wouldn't cause insanity in either, also iirc you could clone backup bodies so that when you died you basically had a backup body at 1 level below when you made it, for your soul to go to.
I know this because Llehctim was an arch necromancer in 2e D&D. To be fair, he had justified paranoia since most people were actually out to get him, because apparently I am or was amusing when I am mildly annoyed. Suffice to say the cloning used by the Ao-sue isn't scientific or simple magically induced clones, but anime style supercloning or something.

EDIT:Perhaps I just watch too many shows/read too many story where most races/leaders trying to unite/conquer everything end up blinded by their ambition and have to be stopped by the hero.

Waspinator

2013-04-08, 05:51 PM

I do find it amusing that this DM thinks his clone army is more realistic than genetically modified bacteria.

comicshorse

2013-04-08, 05:58 PM

Feddlefew

2013-04-08, 06:16 PM

I do find it amusing that this DM thinks his clone army is more realistic than genetically modified bacteria.

[EXPLICITIVE!] you for reminding me about that. I'm going to go sob softly into the pile of microbiology textboo- oh wait no those have been in the the nursing lab.

I'll just sob softly into the pile of genetics textbooks in the living room instead.

Trekkin

2013-04-08, 06:44 PM

137beth

2013-04-08, 06:50 PM

One Step Two

2013-04-08, 07:05 PM

And now it's apparently time for a long, boring round of Chief Circle Feels Bad, in which all of our mutual friends protect him from me and warn me most strenuously against getting near him or them, causing a massive logistical headache on top of everything else.

...yep, this is that wretched, used feeling I usually get from doing 'the right thing'.

It's because "You're picking on him." In a way, you are. Don't get me wrong, Circle Chief needs help, but at the same time, you're being a single, and most vocal, agent trying to make him do something he doesn't want to do.
There's various blogs that talk about group mentality, and how if a member of a group goes against the grain, the rest tends to stand on keeping the status quo. I really don't want to dive into armchair psychology, but if you want your friends to see your point of view, you need to talk to them one-on-one in person, it's the best way to have a less emotionally-pressured discussion.

Alejandro

2013-04-08, 07:07 PM

Tiki Snakes

2013-04-08, 07:57 PM

And now it's apparently time for a long, boring round of Chief Circle Feels Bad, in which all of our mutual friends protect him from me and warn me most strenuously against getting near him or them, causing a massive logistical headache on top of everything else.

...yep, this is that wretched, used feeling I usually get from doing 'the right thing'.

Probably not terrible advice at this point, even if it's almost certainly for the wrong reasons.
Just wash your hands of the whole sorry affair and move on. Anyone questions you about it, just shrug it off as done with and no longer important to you, having discharged your moral responsibilities. Physical space/avoiding anyone overly directly linked to him probably wouldn't hurt either, but I don't think you should specifically alter your daily rituals just for their convenience, especially if you can put it out of your mind as an ongoing issue.

Feddlefew

2013-04-08, 08:12 PM

And now it's apparently time for a long, boring round of Chief Circle Feels Bad, in which all of our mutual friends protect him from me and warn me most strenuously against getting near him or them, causing a massive logistical headache on top of everything else.

...yep, this is that wretched, used feeling I usually get from doing 'the right thing'.

Eh, don't worry too much. Just stay out of the way, he'll pick a new person to blame everything on, and the cycle will continue until he has no friends. :smallsigh:

Edit: By stay out of the way I mean treat him like he's an unpleasant acquaintance you have no passed history with besides the annoying aspects of sharing space with them. Your interpersonal relationship has been knocked back to square one, no more, no less. Hang out with your other friends, and if they want to bring him along, so be it.

Jornophelanthas

2013-04-09, 05:59 AM

And now it's apparently time for a long, boring round of Chief Circle Feels Bad, in which all of our mutual friends protect him from me and warn me most strenuously against getting near him or them, causing a massive logistical headache on top of everything else.

...yep, this is that wretched, used feeling I usually get from doing 'the right thing'.

1. Have you been through this with him before?

2. If your mutual friends do not want to associate with you, are they actually being your friends? Talking to them one on one is good advice.

3. Do not fall into the trap of changing/ruining your daily routine because of this. You have a right to go wherever you want (in public space). Do not avoid places just because he might be there, and do not leave places just because he happens to walk in. Just avoid confrontations. His rights to be anywhere do not outweigh yours (even if he wants to believe otherwise).
In fact, if he is a narcissist, he actually wants you to experience being out of his good graces as a punishment, and you limiting the places you go to and the people you talk to against your will is most certainly a punishment.

Friv

2013-04-09, 08:58 AM

EDIT: and yes, there is alot of social awkwardness in this game, which is one of the issues since none of us are specialists in communication (cha is a dump stat for mages/engineers/scientists a majority of the time)

Really?

Most of the engineers I know kept a moderate Charisma, but dumped Wisdom. :smallwink:

Trekkin: You have my sympathies, sir.

Zenthar

2013-04-09, 09:59 AM

Trekkin

2013-04-09, 10:07 AM

1. Have you been through this with him before?

2. If your mutual friends do not want to associate with you, are they actually being your friends? Talking to them one on one is good advice.

3. Do not fall into the trap of changing/ruining your daily routine because of this. You have a right to go wherever you want (in public space). Do not avoid places just because he might be there, and do not leave places just because he happens to walk in. Just avoid confrontations. His rights to be anywhere do not outweigh yours (even if he wants to believe otherwise).
In fact, if he is a narcissist, he actually wants you to experience being out of his good graces as a punishment, and you limiting the places you go to and the people you talk to against your will is most certainly a punishment.

1. Yep. This is the routine, every time he feels sufficiently slighted against someone. I can't imagine what he's saying about me now.

2. Presumably.

3. I may have failed to express the elephant in the room regarding Chief being around someone he feels has wronged him.

Chief Circle is, fundamentally, a child, and a spoiled one at that. That's fairly clear in retrospect, and a huge understatement. It's also a handy catchall explanation for various incidents in which he's displayed a worrying lack of impulse control. He's never actually hit anyone in anger, to the best of my knowledge, but he has tried to physically block people doing things he doesn't want them to do. EH02's dealt with him more on that level; I've historically avoided pushing him to that point, because it's asinine.

Now, I'm not worried about him actually hurting me. Put bluntly, he's not physically capable of doing anything worse than tripping me, and it would be an effort for him to move that fast. I am worried about him doing something visible enough to cause a scene, then blaming whatever happens on me, and this becoming something ugly and time-consuming to explain to PubSafe.

I know that's not rational. I mean, it's patently ridiculous. But at the same time, I have seen people who are otherwise brilliant, sensible, keenly rational individuals bow to the sheer inevitability of this guy's endless whining, which is at least as ridiculous. He gets what he wants somehow, and that scares me, because it sure as heck isn't by being right.

Deffers

2013-04-09, 10:21 AM

Then you've got to make sure you don't give him what he wants, whether it's contrition or to see you suffer or whatever the hell. Keep your chin up, talk to your friends one on one and ditch them if they act like drama queens about the whole ordeal. I'd actually advise against going near him at least for a few weeks. Don't give him the chance to make a scene, yunno? Unless he starts trying to sabotage your social life.

Jornophelanthas

2013-04-09, 10:30 AM

in which all of our mutual friends protect him from me and warn me most strenuously against getting near him or them,

Unless he starts trying to sabotage your social life.

It sounds to me like he is already doing that.

Who do you think put the idea of discouraging Trekkin from interacting with both him AND their mutual friends into the heads of these mutual friends? (What do the mutual friends have to gain by not associating with Trekkin?)

Elite Hunter 02

2013-04-09, 11:19 AM

It sounds to me like he is already doing that.

Who do you think put the idea of discouraging Trekkin from interacting with both him AND their mutual friends into the heads of these mutual friends? (What do the mutual friends have to gain by not associating with Trekkin?)

Well, that last part is wholly untrue at least for me, since we're roommates and I enjoy hanging with Trekkin. As for discouraging him from interacting with Chief Circle, I know how they both operate, and I do not wish to see two of my friends fighting over issues that came to a head because of a fracking RPG. I don't like these types of conflicts. I ESPECIALLY don't need this when finals are right around the corner. So, yeah. I'd say don't rock the boat, but it's already been flipped over and I am now watching from a distance and praying that it doesn't capsize. *Very Sad Face*

Driderman

2013-04-09, 11:22 AM

Well, that last part is wholly untrue at least for me, since we're roommates and I enjoy hanging with Trekkin. As for discouraging him from interacting with Chief Circle, I know how they both operate, and I do not wish to see two of my friends fighting over issues that came to a head because of a fracking RPG. I don't like these types of conflicts. I ESPECIALLY don't need this when finals are right around the corner. So, yeah. I'd say don't rock the boat, but it's already been flipped over and I am now watching from a distance and praying that it doesn't capsize. *Very Sad Face*

You'll never be saved if nobody notices that you're drowning :P

llehctim

2013-04-09, 01:17 PM

1. Yep. This is the routine, every time he feels sufficiently slighted against someone. I can't imagine what he's saying about me now.

2. Presumably.

3. I may have failed to express the elephant in the room regarding Chief being around someone he feels has wronged him.

Chief Circle is, fundamentally, a child, and a spoiled one at that. That's fairly clear in retrospect, and a huge understatement. It's also a handy catchall explanation for various incidents in which he's displayed a worrying lack of impulse control. He's never actually hit anyone in anger, to the best of my knowledge, but he has tried to physically block people doing things he doesn't want them to do. EH02's dealt with him more on that level; I've historically avoided pushing him to that point, because it's asinine.

Now, I'm not worried about him actually hurting me. Put bluntly, he's not physically capable of doing anything worse than tripping me, and it would be an effort for him to move that fast. I am worried about him doing something visible enough to cause a scene, then blaming whatever happens on me, and this becoming something ugly and time-consuming to explain to PubSafe.

I know that's not rational. I mean, it's patently ridiculous. But at the same time, I have seen people who are otherwise brilliant, sensible, keenly rational individuals bow to the sheer inevitability of this guy's endless whining, which is at least as ridiculous. He gets what he wants somehow, and that scares me, because it sure as heck isn't by being right.

Yeah, my bad, I tend to not argue with people who are devoted to something that I don't care about too much, since it is a waste of my time typically and I didn't see much wrong with it since people tend to do that when I get riled up over something (as rare as that is).
Also worth noting (as EH02 [which sounds like an awesome chemical btw] mentioned) its not that we are protecting him from you, its a little more the opposite, since every time you two talk it ends up with him being mildly annoyed at you and complaining about you (although I think he has stopped doing so to me since I tend to defend you in those conversations, due to my habit of playing both sides of an argument and thinking both can be seen as valid from different perspectives aka. always end up being the "devils advocate" which ironically has led to me defending religion several times) and you being less happy and typically angry, and feeling like the conversation accomplished nothing.

tldr: when you two [trekkin and GM] are angry and talk, no-one benefits (much? if at all) and trekkin is left unhappy after it.
Also pretty sure I was the one who agreed that immediately apologizing would (be likely to) make things worse.

Deffers

2013-04-09, 02:11 PM

See, Trekkin? You've got good, reasonable, actual friends. Don't bother with the people in your life who you can't interact with reasonably; you've got plenty of people with which you can.

Joe the Rat

2013-04-10, 10:44 AM

You've been around this block before. If it will keep until after finals, let it sit. Don't fuss about things you can't do anything about right now.

llehctim

2013-04-11, 05:03 PM

Tanuki Tales

2013-04-11, 06:02 PM

Worth noting that the GM canceled the cthulutech, since he doesn't think we would be able to get much done in the 3 sessions we have remaining, and that there is no plan to continue the campaign after the semester is over. Also we are apparently not getting an epilogue (although that's not necessarily unusual since we haven't reached an ending). So yeah, I suppose I am done with gaming for a bit, and Trekkin has his game with the others and is doing some one shots (sorry I wasn't feeling up to that and had a decent amount of work due)

You really shouldn't let this experience put you off gaming. That's honestly the worst possible outcome for any of you (except Chief Circle. I think that'd be for everyone's collective benefit if he got a hearty dose of only reality for a good time).

llehctim

2013-04-11, 06:21 PM

You really shouldn't let this experience put you off gaming. That's honestly the worst possible outcome for any of you (except Chief Circle. I think that'd be for everyone's collective benefit if he got a hearty dose of only reality for a good time).

If I was going to let bad experiences with things stop me, with my luck I'ld never try anything. Although I admit after countless bad experiences with food, I'll stick with what I like.

PS:I don't know the exacts of why (not feeling like reading between the lines), but he mentioned that it was cuz we would only having 3 more sessions since it wasn't ocntinuing past college, and that. Although it does have a direction its approaching, it is apparent that 3 sessions or so will not be sufficient to get into the swing of the direction, and will only tantalize in vain.

Trekkin

2013-04-11, 06:55 PM

As llehctim says, Cthulhutech has finally ground to a halt. Which means, in my estimation, it's all over except for the sporking. As far as I can determine, that's happening Sunday.

(And don't worry, Tanta. We're all kind of dazed from this, but in my estimation, this isn't the worst game we've played here. I've got some games to run, most of 'em online, and so does nearly everyone else involved in this thing. Not to speak for anyone else, but if we didn't all bounce back from this once we're not here, I'd be surprised. There's nothing Chief Circle can do that's worse than what our professors put us through, really.)

I'm trying to work through how to format that, by the by. We have a slightly wrecked system and an utterly atrocious setting, and GM 'input' woven throughout to hunt down everything good in either and destroy it. This might take a while, actually.

So what would be the best way to showcase the system's various flaws and resultant hilarity...

Deffers

2013-04-11, 08:17 PM

but in my estimation, this isn't the worst game we've played here.

...It's like a mind train wreck. I know I'm going to hate the answer, but I gots to know, man. I gots to know.

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY BE WORSE THAN THIS?! Were the dice made of the reproductive organs of several small animals? Was the game grid drawn in the blood of a forsaken child? Were the minifigs blasphemous idols made of an ichor that is concentrated hate? How could you go through a worse gaming experience without actual crimes being committed?

And I think you should consider the format of FATAL's famous review.

Feddlefew

2013-04-11, 08:40 PM

...It's like a mind train wreck. I know I'm going to hate the answer, but I gots to know, man. I gots to know.

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY BE WORSE THAN THIS?! Were the dice made of the reproductive organs of several small animals? Was the game grid drawn in the blood of a forsaken child? Were the minifigs blasphemous idols made of an ichor that is concentrated hate? How could you go through a worse gaming experience without actual crimes being committed?

And I think you should consider the format of FATAL's famous review.

I'm not sure we should pull this thread, human. :smalleek:

I read the FATAL review once, and the TV tropes thread where someone tried to generate some characters.

It wasn't worth it. No amount of snark could make the horrors that "game" contains bearable.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-04-11, 08:45 PM

WHAT COULD POSSIBLY BE WORSE THAN THIS?!
Honestly? I'd say a much more prosaic bad game. You know, jerkish, railroad-y DM, irritating fellow players, some stupid houserules in an otherwise functional system... This, at least, sounds like it was entertaining in its failure, with fun and capable people on the players' side.

llehctim

2013-04-11, 09:11 PM

Honestly? I'd say a much more prosaic bad game. You know, jerkish, railroad-y DM, irritating fellow players, some stupid houserules in an otherwise functional system... This, at least, sounds like it was entertaining in its failure, with fun and capable people on the players' side.

That is actually pretty accurate in the description of the game I consider worse than this one, you may have heard me reference it before, but I self-destructed. Some highlights include it being an 8+/-2 player party, many characters being Massively favored, where they were constantly given sidequests, pretty much had more effective wealth in super magic items than the rest of the party combined (lvl 7-10 party, iirc he was lvl 12ish). On several occasions being an assasain he betrayed the parties intrest and murdered several NPCs (although the GM in this game also did this, I basically convinced a bunch of local bandits to help us defend a city, and being the apparently unheard of leader that doesn't think of minions as disposal did my best to keep them alive, look NE does not mean throw allies to the meat grinder its just Naturally Efficient [yes this was what I said my alignment was], but towards the end he murdered one of the two survivors in an attempt to basically get the BBEG(s) to spare him, I was ... unhappy with the guild and this was one of the many reasons I got that char out and didnt join their stupid guild [another was i thought they were idiots for not looting, I'm used to 2e where everything magic was treated like it was a godsend].)
The GM made so many DMPCs and sues that could do a lightning bolt hitting everyone that iirc had a 33% chance to leave someone hit by it ALIVE, and it could hit everyone. And if I ever have to hear him talk about Halaster the alabaster blaster etc... for like 50 lines of rhyming, I will gouge my eye out.
Ok, yeah once I finish my presentation tommorow, I am definitely going to have to tell you more about this campaign, because its ... hilarious?

Sith_Happens

2013-04-12, 10:26 AM

I read the FATAL review once, and the TV tropes thread where someone tried to generate some characters.

Huh, don't think I've come across the character-creation thread. I did find a TV Tropes thread MSTing the book, though. It took five people to get through the whole thing because they kept burning out.

Feddlefew

2013-04-12, 11:20 AM

Huh, don't think I've come across the character-creation thread. I did find a TV Tropes thread MSTing the book, though. It took five people to get through the whole thing because they kept burning out.

They started out trying to "play" it (as in, see if it was possible to run a bog-standard dungeon crawl with a small party), but they gave up on that idea after the creators kept finding new moral event horizons to cross....

TV tropes did a purge recently because of problems with NSFW entries / threads and Google's advertising branch, so that thread might no longer exist.

Sith_Happens

2013-04-12, 11:48 AM

They started out trying to "play" it (as in, see if it was possible to run a bog-standard dungeon crawl with a small party), but they gave up on that idea after the creators kept finding new moral event horizons to cross....

There was actually a thread here on GiantITP a while back where someone tried GMing FATAL "for science." The difference being that his was a "blind" study, i.e. his players had never heard of it and he didn't warn them beforehand just what they were getting into (he did apologize profusely afterwards, though).

TV tropes did a purge recently because of problems with NSFW entries / threads and Google's advertising branch, so that thread might no longer exist.

AGAIN? I know there was that time mid-last year, unless that's what you mean by "recently."

Feddlefew

2013-04-12, 05:13 PM

There was actually a thread here on GiantITP a while back where someone tried GMing FATAL "for science." The difference being that his was a "blind" study, i.e. his players had never heard of it and he didn't warn them beforehand just what they were getting into (he did apologize profusely afterwards, though).

I've heard of that thread, but I've never had the... experience of reading it. Is it archived or was it nuked from orbit by the mods?

AGAIN? I know there was that time mid-last year, unless that's what you mean by "recently."

That's probably it.

The Glyphstone

2013-04-12, 05:17 PM

I can't recall the specific thread, but I'm willing to bet it got nuked.

Feddlefew

2013-04-12, 05:24 PM

I'll take your word for it.

I think it's a bit like knowing the Necronomicon was once in the library stacks- I'm curious, but I know my sanity will be better off if I don't go looking for it.

Eldan

2013-04-12, 05:44 PM

I don't think it was actually nuked. The person who ran it made a sort of "clean" version of FATAL, so his players wouldn't be tipped off. He remarked that at least one of them was extremely sensitive to it, so he made sure to leave out any references to sexuality, race or orifices of any kind.

Basically, he cut out the dirty bits and tried testing the actual mechanics. They didn't work.

Scow2

2013-04-12, 05:47 PM

Feddlefew

2013-04-12, 05:49 PM

You cut out 3/4ths of a system and expect it to work?!

Did he leave the toilet humor in? because that's about 3/16 of the system there...

Tiki Snakes

2013-04-12, 06:01 PM

You cut out 3/4ths of a system and expect it to work?!

Eh, considering that parts of the system almost certainly excised literally involve rolling to determine the circumference of certain bodily orifices, if I understand correctly, yeah. I mean, expecting the kind of system that has that kind of thing to work even when you gloss over the ick is pretty naive, but still...

Feddlefew

2013-04-12, 08:56 PM

So now I'm reading reviews of the other terrible game systems on RPG.net... :smallannoyed::smalltongue:

137beth

2013-04-12, 09:50 PM

That is actually pretty accurate in the description of the game I consider worse than this one, you may have heard me reference it before, but I self-destructed. Some highlights include it being an 8+/-2 player party, many characters being Massively favored, where they were constantly given sidequests, pretty much had more effective wealth in super magic items than the rest of the party combined (lvl 7-10 party, iirc he was lvl 12ish). On several occasions being an assasain he betrayed the parties intrest and murdered several NPCs (although the GM in this game also did this, I basically convinced a bunch of local bandits to help us defend a city, and being the apparently unheard of leader that doesn't think of minions as disposal did my best to keep them alive, look NE does not mean throw allies to the meat grinder its just Naturally Efficient [yes this was what I said my alignment was], but towards the end he murdered one of the two survivors in an attempt to basically get the BBEG(s) to spare him, I was ... unhappy with the guild and this was one of the many reasons I got that char out and didnt join their stupid guild [another was i thought they were idiots for not looting, I'm used to 2e where everything magic was treated like it was a godsend].)
The GM made so many DMPCs and sues that could do a lightning bolt hitting everyone that iirc had a 33% chance to leave someone hit by it ALIVE, and it could hit everyone. And if I ever have to hear him talk about Halaster the alabaster blaster etc... for like 50 lines of rhyming, I will gouge my eye out.
Ok, yeah once I finish my presentation tommorow, I am definitely going to have to tell you more about this campaign, because its ... hilarious?

Yes! Let more stories of bad games commence! Allow us to be entertained by your bad experiences:smallbiggrin:

But yea, the game you just finished sounded fun, or rather, the experience sounded somewhat fun, even if the game itself wasn't.

Trekkin

2013-04-12, 09:57 PM

It occurs to me that, given all of our awful experiences, we ought to just set up some sort of CLUE file-esque blog.

llehctim

2013-04-12, 10:12 PM

I apologize for being late with this post, but eh I was enjoying having a relatively relaxing Friday. This is a list of things in the game i consider worse than it, I have been having trouble focusing, so it might be disjointed and ramble despite my attempts to organize the points.

Message redacted

EDIT: anything I missed feel free to mention trekkin or EH02, or if anyone has any questions of curiosity feel free.

Arbane

2013-04-13, 12:25 AM

It occurs to me that, given all of our awful experiences, we ought to just set up some sort of CLUE file-esque blog.

This is a good plan. I fully endorse this plan.

This is the kind of plan where you keep your hat.

Feddlefew

2013-04-13, 01:16 AM

It occurs to me that, given all of our awful experiences, we ought to just set up some sort of CLUE file-esque blog.

CLUE like the board game? :smallconfused:

Trekkin

2013-04-13, 01:22 AM

Eldest

2013-04-13, 03:54 AM

I have to say, the three of you are good people, awesome players and I'd kill to have folks of your caliber at any of my game tables.

Seconded.

Trekkin, good job for leaving, and stating that you think he needs help even when it's being a massive pain for you.

*raises a glass*

llehctim, good lord, the patience you have and I don't. I mean, I consider myself patient, but I would have been shouting shortly after the announcement of mind control in utopia and unending war. Congradulations for managing to stick around and not blow your top.

*raises a glass*

Elite Hunter 02, I'm just going to echo the people stating that your character was one of the best I've seen, on par with the Paladin As It Should Be from this site. That level of focus in a character can be done wrong easily: you did it right.

*raises a glass*

For all of y'all: this is the worst gaming story I've read. Tops That Lanky Bugger, in fact. And I applaud all of you for pretty much ignoring that this should have poisoned gaming for you for a while, and saying "screw that, I'm having fun."

Feddlefew

2013-04-13, 03:59 PM

CLUE like the repository of anecdotes of terminally dense Shadowrun groups, the CLUE files. I believe the Wayback Machine still has an archived copy.

And here they are. (http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/gaming/shadowrun/clue-files.html)

Okay, so I finished reading that. My favorite was the one where The PCs' (very fancy) boat was slowly filling with water from a large number of bullet holes, and they decided they needed to take a nap...

llehctim

2013-04-13, 05:00 PM

Okay, so I finished reading that. My favorite was the one where The PCs' (very fancy) boat was slowly filling with water from a large number of bullet holes, and they decided they needed to take a nap...

They're gonna be sleeping with the fishes.:smalltongue:

Deffers

2013-04-13, 07:29 PM

So, will the S.U.E. files get their own thread, or are we continuing this one, or...?

Trekkin

2013-04-13, 09:27 PM

We're making a tumblr for them, so we can keep adding new things as we get to them without the thread hitting its page limit. We have a lot of awful games to rant about.

The SUE files will be added starting tomorrow.

137beth

2013-04-13, 10:12 PM

Can't wait! And yea, llehctim, favoritism can make any campaign horrible:smallfrown:

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 04:33 AM

Sith_Happens

2013-04-14, 05:36 AM

Sigh. Apparently a friend of the DM found this thread and is contemplating alerting him to its existence, knowing we put it together. I can hardly imagine what would happen if Chief Circle found this thread, let alone a site partially dedicated to lampooning his hilariously awful power tripping...

This is a conundrum, indeed.

How'd he find it? I did notice a while back that one post containing the name of the "system" got quoted before it was edited to turn the name backwards.

Anyways, I say let the guy find out about his newfound Internet infamy (well, at least to the extent that one can be "infamous" while remaining completely anonymous). If he says anything to you, just ask him if he would like to address any of the complaints made therein.

Asmayus

2013-04-14, 07:57 AM

You mentioned somwhere you were going to continue playing in your own version of the world. I'd like to bring this setting to your attention, from the Homebrew section:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15088467&posted=1#post15088467

It's like what the circle chief wanted to do but without the reality warping sue madness.

The Glyphstone

2013-04-14, 09:51 AM

Karnith

2013-04-14, 10:05 AM

And, hey, who knows, perhaps seeing every single person in this thread say how terribad it all is/sounds might actually get through to him and cause him to reflect. Oh, who am I kidding? He'll either ignore it or say we're idiots and don't understand the glory of the katana god.
Besides, how much worse could things really get at this point?

JoshuaZ

2013-04-14, 10:05 AM

And anyone can tell we went out of our way to remove/delete anything that could be used to identify the actual DM. If anything, this thread is an example of the internet being nice and respectful.

Tanuki Tales

2013-04-14, 10:09 AM

Who cares if Chief Circle finds it and reads it?

He's not your friend.

He's not your Game Master.

He's not part of your life unless you allow him to be.

So he can just go rot and he can read this thread to his Egocentric, Narcissistic, Indigo Child heart's content.

Geordnet

2013-04-14, 10:15 AM

It's like what the circle chief wanted to do but without the reality warping sue madness.
I don't know, it's missing an expanding multiversal empire (which is a valid theme, and could be pretty cool if its leader weren't so Sueish.)

Actually there are other things which are neat-but-poorly-implemented about the setting, like the mixture of weapons and armies from different universes. If approached from an inclusive, "every weapon/setting is good in different ways" sort of view, then pitting lasguns up against assault rifles up against blasters up against magic repeater crossbows could be a lot of fun.

The "Multiversal Suenion" could be retextured as well-intentioned extremists whom have unambiguously gone waaay too far. The leaders would be completely "innocent" and naive individuals whom honestly think they're doing the right thing when they rip the heart and soul out of everyone as they brainwash them into Goodthinking automatons in an obviously Orwellian system.

Oh, and ABSOLUTELY NO CAUSALITY-WARPING!!! :smallyuk:

I was going to write a lot more about this idea, but I realized I shouldn't since it isn't my idea. It belongs to Chief Circle, no matter how much he squanders its potential. :smallsigh:

137beth

2013-04-14, 11:21 AM

Besides hilarity? It's not like he can do much more to you personally. And I thought he won't read internet forums anyways because they expose him to other people's opinions.

Good call, it looks like we are safe. However, there is a threat that he might take out his rage on llehctim, despite llehctim defending Circle Chief repeatedly on this thread. So it might still be an issue...

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 11:38 AM

Sigh. Apparently a friend of the DM found this thread and is contemplating alerting him to its existence, knowing we put it together. I can hardly imagine what would happen if Chief Circle found this thread, let alone a site partially dedicated to lampooning his hilariously awful power tripping...

This is a conundrum, indeed.

One the one hand, he could accuse you of cyber bulling. For the record, I think this falls under "complaining about your terrible coworkers / roommate on the intertubes", especially since you have spent more effort trying to keep him anonymous than yourselves.

On the other hand, it might be good for him to learn that complete strangers think his behavior is childish and unexceptionable.

Deffers

2013-04-14, 11:43 AM

Look, I say go for it. No pain, no gain.

You have to ask yourself, too, if deep down inside you had kinda hoped he would read it. If only to gauge his reaction. If the answer was, at any point, "yes," then there's now a practical upshot to him finding out. You get to satisfy your curiosity.

If he tries to do something to you, well... it's, like, what's the worst he could do? The real worst-case scenario is he tries to pull a Lanky-esque terriDM thing. Then the police get involved and basically it's over. The second worst thing he can do is hound you guys relentlessly. If so, do contact the authorities and proceed as before. Third worst-case scenario is he goes over here, and at that point, he decided to pick a fight with the Internet. Really, he's going to do all of zero damage to anyone if he tries that one, and he'd be lucky that he picked a fight with people as polite as the Playgrounders.

Ergo, tumble your tumblr! Let its skill ranks be high enough that it not provoke attacks of opportunity from the trolls of the Internet, and enough to be as entertaining as bardic performance!

Incidentally, all d20 based tumblrs should be inaugurated by way of tumble check puns. It's like a ship and a champagne glass.

Karnith

2013-04-14, 11:44 AM

At the very least, this thread ought to give him some idea that his "Pathfinder killer" system is unlikely to be commercially successful, and why.

The New Bruceski

2013-04-14, 02:12 PM

How'd he find it? I did notice a while back that one post containing the name of the "system" got quoted before it was edited to turn the name backwards.

This is a public forum, I'm going to guess he found it the same way as the rest of us did: by browsing.

Big Fau

2013-04-14, 02:17 PM

This is a public forum, I'm going to guess he found it the same way as the rest of us did: by browsing.

From what we've been told, Chief Circle doesn't use the internet very much specifically because of forums like this one.

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 02:27 PM

He doesn't, but his friends do, and thus we arrive at the present predicament, since he will, in extreme cases, look at a forum.

Deffers

2013-04-14, 02:31 PM

So, uh... remind me again how these people, after reading this forum, are still his friend? And, beyond that, are, after reading about you being insulted by him, still on his side? And, beyond THAT, are so very obviously chomping at the bit to start something that they're openly telling you they're considering telling him about it?

I mean, seriously. They must know, logically, this thread isn't gonna make him happy. They must also have first-hand experience with him being mean and dismissive of you. How could they consider showing him this to be a good idea?

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 02:35 PM

I have no idea. At any rate, here: [never mind]

Most of the authors are being creatively waylaid at the moment, but posts are being made as fast as possible.

Eldan

2013-04-14, 03:17 PM

I gave up after teh first two paragraphs of skills. Doctor, my brain hurts. Take it out.

The Glyphstone

2013-04-14, 03:38 PM

I loved the Shadowrun story, that was priceless.

The Boz

2013-04-14, 03:54 PM

I am reading this, am something like 800 posts in, and I get this strange feeling like I know this guy...
Do the words Deathkiller, Shinokorosha, Halcyion, Vermillion and The Unstoppable Industrialization sound familiar to any one of you?

jindra34

2013-04-14, 04:17 PM

Jeeze those Shadowrun players missed a whole lot of points. Still ended up perfectly funny. Here is a question though: Did they end up getting angry and blaming you for any of it?

JoshuaZ

2013-04-14, 04:19 PM

Whoever is writing this are a bunch of pretty funny writers. I'm impressed and deeply amused. The Shadowrun story was hilarious and the rest is just very well written.

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 04:20 PM

I gave up after teh first two paragraphs of skills. Doctor, my brain hurts. Take it out.
What I want to know is HOW DO PEOPLE COOK IN THIS SYSTEM WITHOUT EXPLODING?!?!

The Glyphstone

2013-04-14, 04:26 PM

What I want to know is HOW DO PEOPLE COOK IN THIS SYSTEM WITHOUT EXPLODING?!?!

They don't cook, they use nano-assemblers, remember?

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 04:27 PM

You know who's writing it, JoshuaZ...

None of "them" want to take credit, though.

jindra34

2013-04-14, 04:30 PM

They don't cook, they use nano-assemblers, remember?

Well its a 'universal' system (which i guess might be true, its probably equally horrible no matter what type of setting you use it in) so it should be able to have people handle simple tasks like bread making and such. After all not every setting is going to have some excuse for NPCs not to be skilled at making something yet still reliably possess it.

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 05:01 PM

They don't cook, they use nano-assemblers, remember?

Surely at some point someone had to open up an MRE or some kind of instant noodles an reheat them.

"Okay, I open the can of beans. I have a can opener, safety gloves safety goggles and a microwave safe bowl with a microwave safe cover, and a microwave."

"Role open can. How many ranks do you have in your container opening skill?"

"Um... what? Well I got a 20."

"You open the can. Do you have ranks in pouring?"

"Yes. Remember when I was trying to cast-"

"No, that's the pouring molten metal into a mold skill. You need regular pouring."

"No. I rolled a 16."

"You got most of it in, but you spilled some on the counter."

"[poopy]. I put it into the microwave and heat it. My operate simple machinery-

"Electronics"

"-electronics skill is 5. I role a 19."

"You aren't a high enough level to operate a microwave, so the beans catch on fire and explode in your face. You take *roles dice* 11 damage. You hear police sirens in the distance."

"[EXPLICATIVE]!"

----

Bonus material:

"Also the beans are now radioactive."

"[MANY EXPLICATIVES] THAT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE!"

Edit: I forgot to do some formatting... 8;^)

137beth

2013-04-14, 05:17 PM

Okay, I will read the blog posts later, but...

Well its a 'universal' system (which i guess might be true, its probably equally horrible no matter what type of setting you use it in) so it should be able to have people handle simple tasks like bread making and such. After all not every setting is going to have some excuse for NPCs not to be skilled at making something yet still reliably possess it.
It is a universal system which depends on 7200 established copyrighted worlds, though. Remember, katanas ARE universal in this system:smallbiggrin:

jindra34

2013-04-14, 06:20 PM

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 06:34 PM

A thought just occurred to me.

Being a commoner in the SUE system must be like living in an infomercial. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08xQLGWTSag)

Deffers

2013-04-14, 07:54 PM

Holy hit tables, this system is the most convoluted system I've seen bolted onto a d20 base. Just calculating your AC seems pointlessly daunting. The skill checks section made me cry.

llehctim

2013-04-14, 07:54 PM

Ok actually looking back to the other campaign and talking to the GM for the other campaign it wasnt that bad except for a few things and the character I hated. So technically this was my worst game.

PS: we had a group talk of the system, and everyone was pretty good with it. TY players for being reasonable, and the GM was also pretty understanding I think. So good times.

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 08:13 PM

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 08:20 PM

Group talk of which system? The other game's or the one this thread is about?

This thread's game. Partially as a result of which our group moral guardian is terribly offended by the idea of the tumblr and indeed this thread, and is probably going to be terribly offended by this too.

And I don't have the energy to care anymore, short of deleting everything. Chief Circle has managed to suck the fun out of this even apparently without knowing about it.

Tanuki Tales

2013-04-14, 08:22 PM

This thread's game. Partially as a result of which our group moral guardian is terribly offended by the idea of the tumblr and indeed this thread, and is probably going to be terribly offended by this too.

And you care...why? They're a terrible "moral guardian" if they let Chief Circle be Chief Circle. Let them go be offended.

And I don't have the energy to care anymore. Chief Circle has managed to suck the fun out of this even apparently without knowing about it.

That's a real shame.

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 08:38 PM

And you care...why? They're a terrible "moral guardian" if they let Chief Circle be Chief Circle. Let them go be offended.

I will tell you why I care. Please don't read this as rancor, least of all rancor directed at you. This is just a question I need to answer emphatically.

I care because whenever I try to do anything around here, it is badwrongfun.
Because whenever I try to laugh at that fact, that is itself mean and hurtful.
Because I can't so much as snicker without being threatened with legal action.
Because everything I say and much of what I don't is spat back at me and actively sought out.
Because I'm sick and tired of being a handy scapegoat.
Because the only way I can hang around my few remaining friends is to be dragged in front of these draining, toxic people and have to talk out problems that don't exist, because I owe them an apology.

And because ultimately, in the final analysis, I have lost, and so has everything I care about. I will always be the villain, always the bad guy mocking the poor Chief Circles of the world for things they've conveniently forgotten they've said, because apparently bluntness is the highest form of evil now and the primary means of conflict resolution is to drag everyone over the coals until nobody risks being amused anymore. The only thing I'm allowed to do without having to face a flood of sanctimonious nonsense is to shut up, because the right thing is never the fun thing or the honest thing or the logical thing or the helpful thing.
So I'm shutting up.

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 08:41 PM

This thread's game. Partially as a result of which our group moral guardian is terribly offended by the idea of the tumblr and indeed this thread, and is probably going to be terribly offended by this too.

And I don't have the energy to care anymore, short of deleting everything. Chief Circle has managed to suck the fun out of this even apparently without knowing about it.

Eh, it happens. Take a break, and then try picking back up on this in a day or so. Watch Puella Magi Madoka Magica if you haven't already. Build a jigsaw puzzle. Go for a hike. Spend several hours watching videos of capybaras playing in hotsprings.

Edit: Okay. New post, new solution: You need new friends. Because if your other friends want to keep that toxic relationship going, they need someone for Chief Circle to be an ******* too. Other wise he'll be an ******* to them. And if that's what they're keeping you around for, they never were your friends in the first place.

As for how to make new friends...

-Try to get a job doing research, preferably interdepartmental research.
-Is there a Nerf or Reenactment Club at your school? Join it.
-Sit out in a public place at the same time every day and do something interesting, like making chainmail. From experience I can say it starts conversations. :smallbiggrin:

Edit 2: Llehctim, it's not going to last. Just trust me on this one- the moment things start to settle down he'll be back to acting exactly as he was before.

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 08:56 PM

-Try to get a job doing research, preferably interdepartmental research.
-Is there a Nerf or Reenactment Club at your school? Join it.
-Sit out in a public place at the same time every day and do something interesting, like making chainmail. From experience I can say it starts conversations. :smallbiggrin:

Incongruous as it sounds, don't worry about me. I'm out of here soon enough to a place where I can do the first without being surrounded by even worse people, the second isn't painful, and the third won't get me accosted. I actually do like making chainmail, funnily enough.

Elite Hunter 02

2013-04-14, 09:01 PM

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 09:02 PM

Incongruous as it sounds, don't worry about me. I'm out of here soon enough to a place where I can do the first without being surrounded by even worse people, the second isn't painful, and the third won't get me accosted. I actually do like making chainmail, funnily enough.

I've been gathering supplies to make an actually chainmail bikini. Not that I'd wear it*, but I thought it might be a nice thing to put into one of those display-frame thingies and hang on a wall. :smallbiggrin:

*AHAHAHAHAHAHAH-

jindra34

2013-04-14, 09:05 PM

EH02: Its more because for conflict resolution to actually work the person (or people) who are instigating the conflict (which may be different than the people who are apparently causing it) have to be willing to admit some degree of wrong or otherwise that they need to change. And in this case part of the conflict is the continued use of conflict resolution and discussion to try and work out the problems.

Alejandro

2013-04-14, 09:05 PM

Whenever those jerks get you down, just remember: the world is going to crush them, and they will thrust their fists against the posts, still insisting they see the ghosts. :)

And we all get to laugh at their eventual suffering. That's karma. For now, anyone who makes you do something you hate, and that they know you hate? They're not your friend.

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 09:07 PM

I've been gathering supplies to make an actually chainmail bikini. Not that I'd wear it*, but I thought it might be a nice thing to put into one of those display-frame thingies and hang on a wall. :smallbiggrin:

*AHAHAHAHAHAHAH-

I mostly do bracelets. I find fewer people point and laugh or try to play hot potato with my materials if I'm making something small.

The more I think about it, the less I like my college...

EDIT: And Alejandro, I wish I could think that way. In my experience, though, karma will end up sat down with Chief Circle like everyone else, and our resident moralizer will talk for hours until everyone agrees we all made some mistakes and there were some unfortunate miscommunications and it's all right really, we're all still friends...

Unfortunately, my attempts to move the conversation in a more productive direction never end well. Probably because they have in the past taken the form of frenzied ranting about how absurd it is to try to pass this stuff of as 'a difference in DMing styles', since anything not conciliatory enough to imply no need for improvement is rejected as the ravings of a madman.

Which of course in this case they are, but I'm doubtful about how automatically that makes them untrue.

jindra34

2013-04-14, 09:22 PM

Mind if I ask a question about the school Trekkin: Does it have or offer conflict resolution services?

Deffers

2013-04-14, 09:25 PM

The more I think about it, the more upset I get. The couple posts on the S.U.E. system were incredibly entertaining and well-written. And I mean the kind of well-written that gets peoples' attention. Have you SEEN the reception you got about this? Man, I don't want you guys to quit! That's probably really selfish, but it's also true. Man, if I could be up there with you I'd totally be supporting you.

And you need to get away from these toxic people as fast as possible, I agree. I hate people who mock you for what you like or make. I mean, I'm mocking Ao-Sue not because of his convoluted, weird system (which does have some good ideas) but because of the way that the rules are meant to stifle the creativity of others and allow him to have his own little power bubble. I hate that. I mock his little system because of the self-centeredness of his Sue, because of the lack of self-reflection, because of all that crap. Yunno, I really do wish I could persuade you to keep writing the S.U.E. system files. All of you guys. They were a great read! They were fun! Don't let these *******s put you down, and don't stay near them. Simple as. I will understand though if you want to quit the whole thing.

It's just frustrating, because you were making something good out of it and fast at getting posts up. My first instinct is therefore to tell you not to be discouraged and to keep at it. You see an obstacle, you overcome it.

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 09:28 PM

*Sigh*

Why does it seem that every time an attempt is made at conflict resolution, it actually hurts the group more than it helps? Granted, we know that the discussion never actually got through to Chief Circle the way we wanted it to, but I was hoping we could put that particular issue behind us and continue forward now that it was done, unsuccessful though it might have been.

Or maybe I'm just one of those people that fails to grasp the true issue. I hate situations like this.

If your trying to use Appeasement it's not going to work. It never works.

The "true" issue here is that (at least) one person in the group is incapable of making basic social compromises. So the entire group has to conform to their whims or excrement hits the jet intake, and the burning wreckage destroys everything in a several mile radius.

Now, Trekkin and Chief Circle's friendship, to whatever extent it existed before, is gone, probably leaving a smoking still burning crater in the social landscape. They do need time away from each other to cool down.

My reading of this is also that Trekkin is mad at you for attempting to negotiate with Chief Circle, and the impression I'm getting from him is that you threw him under a bus to keep Chief Circle off your backs. I don't know how true this is, but if you did that's horrible and you should feel bad about yourselves.

I have dealt with narcissistic people who were similar to Chief Circle. They're very good at manipulating people and deflecting anger at scapegoats.

I also dealt with a narcissistic person who, um, well.... (possibly triggering)

We'll say that he graphically threatened to kill me a few times because they thought I was keeping their "true love" (My BFF/ practically adopted brother) for myself.

My other friends put up with him and his stalking of my BFF for two years until he started trying to ruin their love lives because if he couldn't have a relationship....

Basically, they literally get worse, constantly pushing the boundary of what they're allowed to get away with until no one can stand to be around them. They then get a new group of people and start the cycle over.

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 09:29 PM

Honestly, I want to keep writing them. Very much. I'm glad you liked my content (everything but the combat system was me, as the others were as I said waylaid), and I had fun writing it. I have quite a bit more saved up, actually, and I'd love to write still more, even if the others are at best ambivalent about it.

I'm just at a loss on how to put them out there anonymously, direct all of you to it, and keep CC and friends from making my life hell over it.

EDITs: No, jindra, they don't. At least not the kind that doesn't come with handguns and disciplinary consequences for when the conflicts are really bad.

And I wasn't thrown under the bus, not really. I'm abrasive, blunt, and can be a real pain to deal with; this was brought up, and in my opinion dealt with fairly. The thing that has a chokehold on my goat runs deeper than that, and is honestly more me than anything else: I don't like empty platitudes, and I especially don't like when these and relieved laughter substitute for an awareness of the actual issues. I really don't like being the bad guy for pointing out that all we're doing is laughing about how funny it all is instead of saying as bluntly as possible that things absolutely need to change--since the first and only change that has ever happened is throwing me out on my overly-cynical rear, because apparently I'm the source of all conflict.

True, I suppose, in that I don't like avoiding conflict for the sake of avoiding conflict.

Alejandro

2013-04-14, 09:32 PM

EDIT: And Alejandro, I wish I could think that way. In my experience, though, karma will end up sat down with Chief Circle like everyone else, and our resident moralizer will talk for hours until everyone agrees we all made some mistakes and there were some unfortunate miscommunications and it's all right really, we're all still friends...

I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, only helpful: Your experience is college. College is a skewed mess of overinflated egos, withdrawn smart people, confusion, crazed hormones, and an even mix of people who want to be there, don't want to be there, or don't care. Once you leave it, it's like someone took the frosted glass from in front of your eyes.

In the real world, people like Chief Circle eventually get fired/arrested/socially destroyed/self destruct. And sometimes, it's hilarious. You seem like a good guy, so hang in there.

Tanuki Tales

2013-04-14, 09:35 PM

and keep CC and friends from making my life hell over it.

How are they your friends again?

I think the simple solution and answer is "remove them from your life".

Zarin

2013-04-14, 09:37 PM

I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, only helpful: Your experience is college. College is a skewed mess of overinflated egos, withdrawn smart people, confusion, crazed hormones, and an even mix of people who want to be there, don't want to be there, or don't care. Once you leave it, it's like someone took the frosted glass from in front of your eyes.

In the real world, people like Chief Circle eventually get fired/arrested/socially destroyed/self destruct. And sometimes, it's hilarious. You seem like a good guy, so hang in there.

Q

F

T

Honestly I suggest you burn your bridges in the most flamboyant way possible and post them, under your real name, and then email all your "friends" the link.

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 09:40 PM

Q

F

T

Honestly I suggest you burn your bridges in the most flamboyant way possible and post them, under your real name, and then email all your "friends" the link.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

That is a terrible idea. THAT crosses some serious, future employment effecting lines.

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 09:41 PM

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

That is a terrible idea. THAT crosses some serious, future employment effecting lines.

And THIS I will QFT. I'm not going to self-destruct over this; I just like satirizing awful campaigns and wish I still could.

Zarin

2013-04-14, 09:44 PM

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

That is a terrible idea. THAT crosses some serious, future employment effecting lines.

Hey, it would only effect employment opportunities should the content of the posts be false, or posted with the intent of harming someone. These would, of course, only be for purposes of criticism/critique of a gaming system.

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 09:45 PM

Tanuki Tales

2013-04-14, 09:47 PM

How are they your friends again?

I think the simple solution and answer is "remove them from your life".

*polite cough*

Elite Hunter 02

2013-04-14, 09:48 PM

And THIS I will QFT. I'm not going to self-destruct over this; I just like satirizing awful campaigns and wish I still could.

I can still write the campaign journal(s), right? They wouldn't be pointing out fallacies in the system, more just describing the "plot" and how we all interacted as players and GM. If THAT is a bad idea, then I really have no choice but to completely give up on this issue as far as purging all the bad things from my mind.

jindra34

2013-04-14, 09:49 PM

And here I am sitting here wondering who the true culprit for all these problems is. And, yes despite how crazy it sounds, feeling a little sorry for your former DM for having friends who are willing to do whatever it takes to placate him. And to those who are trying to prevent a disaster; stop your only delaying the inevitable and making it worse for those involved when it happens.
With that said; Trekkin honestly I think the best thing is to try to be more calm about everything while still being yourself. The people browbeating you into submission are essentially bullies regardless of reason, don't give them the success. Bend to the degree you feel is right, and stand strong when you feel its right, because again your not helping the root issue by relenting to the demands.

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 09:50 PM

*polite cough*

I'm typing as fast as I can! This thread is fast.

I know I should remove them from my life. I know. I've already removed them from most of the ways I talk to people. The trouble is, they're friends with most of my friends, so the cycle of reconciliation and amelioration and appeasement just keeps going indefinitely until I'm either friendless or back with CC.

EDIT: And jindra, if you mean to imply I'm at fault here...of course I am. Just probably not exclusively.

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 09:50 PM

Hey, it would only effect employment opportunities should the content of the posts be false, or posted with the intent of harming someone. These would, of course, only be for purposes of criticism/critique of a gaming system.

It's a humongous **** move. It's not ethically acceptable. And it shows that whoever did that is vengeful and willing to go out of their way to spite people.

Keeping things anonymous for all sides is a must when you're posting things that make fun of stupid decisions. That way everyone gets to laugh at how stupid the situation is.

Instead of it looking like someone decided they needed to piss in the ashes of a broken relationship.

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 09:54 PM

I can still write the campaign journal(s), right? They wouldn't be pointing out fallacies in the system, more just describing the "plot" and how we all interacted as players and GM. If THAT is a bad idea, then I really have no choice but to completely give up on this issue as far as purging all the bad things from my mind.

Nope. That's fine, as long as it doesn't "name names", so to speak. That's why the Okc_ebooks tumbler (Often NSFW, Still hillarious) can poke fun at the cluelessness of pickup artists as they try to seduce an obvious bot.

Edit: Not sure I can link the tumbler because... Um... Some of the posts are NSFW.

jindra34

2013-04-14, 09:55 PM

Yeah your a wee bit a part of the problem. But really your know more a part of the problem than an abused housewife (yes I'm going there, because yes it feels like the right metaphor) who is unwilling to report her husband's abuse to the police.

Zarin

2013-04-14, 09:55 PM

It's a humongous **** move. It's not ethically acceptable. And it shows that whoever did that is vengeful and willing to go out of their way to spite people.

could actually be beneficial if one is seeking a career as a lawyer or politician...

I kid, I kid. Admittedly I take things from 0 to sidewayseight very quickly and would've already very vocally told everyone to kiss me where the sun doesn't shine and possibly firebombed something... so in comparison you guys have the patience of a saint.

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 09:55 PM

It's a humongous **** move. It's not ethically acceptable. And it shows that whoever did that is vengeful and willing to go out of their way to spite people.

Keeping things anonymous for all sides is a must when you're posting things that make fun of stupid decisions. That way everyone gets to laugh at how stupid the situation is.

Instead of it looking like someone decided they needed to piss in the ashes of a broken relationship.

And even if I were the only one named (which is SO not going to happen), it wouldn't be hard to figure out who the other parties involved were, so I'm still hunting for a way to keep it totally anonymous. And, heck, even aggregate more. It will probably end up a Blogspot type of thing, now that I think about it.

Tanuki Tales

2013-04-14, 09:57 PM

I'm typing as fast as I can! This thread is fast.

It's fine, didn't mean to make you feel rushed.

I know I should remove them from my life. I know. I've already removed them from most of the ways I talk to people. The trouble is, they're friends with most of my friends, so the cycle of reconciliation and amelioration and appeasement just keeps going indefinitely until I'm either friendless or back with CC.

But where does the chain end? There has to be breaking point where you have people who care more about you than people who condone and collude to make your life hell to appease Chief Circle.

EDIT: And jindra, if you mean to imply I'm at fault here...of course I am. Just probably not exclusively.

Pfft, saying you're at fault is like blaming a star for being hot and giving someone a sunburn when they're not prepared to be out under it.

Alejandro

2013-04-14, 09:58 PM

I'm typing as fast as I can! This thread is fast.

I know I should remove them from my life. I know. I've already removed them from most of the ways I talk to people. The trouble is, they're friends with most of my friends, so the cycle of reconciliation and amelioration and appeasement just keeps going indefinitely until I'm either friendless or back with CC.

EDIT: And jindra, if you mean to imply I'm at fault here...of course I am. Just probably not exclusively.

Real friends don't stop being your friends just because some other asshat friend told them to, without a good, actual reason, or talking to you first to see what's up. Anyone who does is a crappy excuse for a friend, and should be excised from your life like a tumor. You'll meet new people.

Elite Hunter 02

2013-04-14, 10:00 PM

Alejandro

2013-04-14, 10:04 PM

And there is an example of a real friend: Anyone who is willing to say they are sorry or were wrong. If you find someone who will do that, they're usually worth it.

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 10:04 PM

I guess I should just say this publicly, I should have said this a page ago. Trekkin, I apologize if you feel that I am one those people that is always siding with CC. I REALLY hate it when friends fight, and I can be a real wimp when it comes to solving issues in the most efficient way possible. Which is why I DIDN'T speak out as much as I probably could/should have during that discussion. So, sorry for all the BS.

Apologies if I hadn't made it clear: you're not the problem here. Thank you for the sympathy, though. You don't take sides at all, which is quite a different thing from trying to take both sides (which can be a lot of the problem, in my view). Same thing with llehctim.

Although really, this is not a case of friends fighting, if that helps put you at ease. Much as everyone's been trying to prevent that, CC and I are not friends.

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 10:04 PM

I guess I should just say this publicly, I should have said this a page ago. Trekkin, I apologize if you feel that I am one those people that is always siding with CC. I REALLY hate it when friends fight, and I can be a real wimp when it comes to solving issues in the most efficient way possible. Which is why I DIDN'T speak out as much as I probably could/should have during that discussion. So, sorry for all the BS.

It's hard to stand up to a person with a huge ego. Especially when they've got people willing to back them up on things.

I'm not saying that you don't have a spine. You just need to be willing to push back more often.

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 10:12 PM

It's hard to stand up to a person with a huge ego. Especially when they've got people willing to back them up on things.

Exceptionally specially when those very same people also purport to be backing you up on things, and reduce everything to this generally friendly tapioca pudding-like farce.

It was still strangely gratifying hearing Chief Circle claim "[he'll] take [certain of our complaints about the system he explicitly asked us to playtest] under advisement". Not because it was at all rewarding to convince him of anything; it was just nice to know that, yes, his ego is what I had known it to be.

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 10:18 PM

It was still strangely gratifying hearing Chief Circle claim "[he'll] take [certain of our concerns] under advisement". Not because it was at all rewarding to convince him of anything; it was just nice to know that, yes, his ego is what I had known it to be.

He actually said "under advisement".

He does realize that usually means "ignored with contempt" polity, right?

jindra34

2013-04-14, 10:20 PM

Exceptionally specially when those very same people also purport to be backing you up on things, and reduce everything to this generally friendly tapioca pudding-like farce.

Which is entirely the issue. Their pretty much willfully preventing the real issue(s) from coming to light. Which is counter productive and just makes the issue simmer more and take deeper roots.
And I still have to wonder how long that group of people has been friends.

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 10:20 PM

He actually said "under advisement".

He does realize that usually means "ignored with contempt" polity, right?

He did indeed, with that same smug smile he uses every time someone suggests he change.

I suspect he does, and when this was touched on, he responded with -- and if my paraphrasing is off, I'd welcome correction -- "of course I actually meant under consideration. When I say one of the two, I usually mean the appropriate one regardless of what I actually say."

And jindra: four years. This was brought up, in the context that we've been through so much together over the past four years. All I could think, though, was that I've wasted four years hanging out with CC & Co.

jindra34

2013-04-14, 10:22 PM

And jindra: four years. This was brought up, in the context that we've been through so much together over the past four years. All I could think, though, was that I've wasted four years hanging out with these people.

Not the whole group just the DM and his closest supporters.

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 10:24 PM

Not the whole group just the DM and his closest supporters.

Quite so; edited to reflect what I meant.

Deffers

2013-04-14, 10:36 PM

Well, I'm glad you guys will keep going on the blog (if I am reading this correctly). You guys need to stick it to your so-called friends, and the best way to do this, to tell 'em all to go kiss your collective ass, is probably by making something productive and fun out of the ashes of... what was probably a very crappy friendship to begin with. Think of it as taking this enormous time sink and turning it into a comedy diamond.

Plus, I mean... look at it this way. It's not like CC can do much if only the names are changed to protect the innocent, etc.

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 10:38 PM

Deffers

2013-04-14, 10:59 PM

What's wrong with the Tumblr? I mean, something bloglike seems like the best idea. With maybe an index page or archive page pulling all the threads together.

Personally, I think the tales should go something like this in terms of order:

-Mechanics

-Setting (with interjections about how CC wanted this to be a major published work)

-Ao Sue's lunacy

-Player Highlights from the actual campaign.

This seems to be the most reasonable setup, but it really does front-load the craziest, most "I can't believe this happened" bull**** for last, which is hardly what you want. You're probably going to want to intersperse the tales of things like mechanics with bits and bobs about how the actual campaign was run.

Arbane

2013-04-14, 11:01 PM

I really don't like being the bad guy for pointing out that all we're doing is laughing about how funny it all is instead of saying as bluntly as possible that things absolutely need to change--since the first and only change that has ever happened is throwing me out on my overly-cynical rear, because apparently I'm the source of all conflict.

Wait until you graduate, THEN go back to raking CC and his Geek Social Fallacy (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html)-imbibing enablers over the coals? The wait will be annoying for us members of your fanclub, but I'm OK with it.

Or send them a link to this thread, and go back to enumerating all the HUNDREDS OF WAYS Chief Circle fails at being a human being, much less a GM. Invite him to come post a rebuttal. (Yes, a lot of my advice prioritizes my amusement over your good relations with time-wasting jerks. Sorry...)

And be glad you're 'out'. No gaming is better than bad gaming, and I'm not really seeing how hanging out with these people is better than studying. Or reorganizing your sock-drawer. Or trepanation, for that matter.

A thought just occurred to me.

Being a commoner in the SUE system must be like living in an infomercial. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08xQLGWTSag)

ISTR one of the designers of Exalted mentioned that the more skills a system has, the more incompetent the characters become. The S.U.E. system proves that pretty handily...

Trekkin

2013-04-14, 11:16 PM

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 11:17 PM

Or trepanation, for that matter.

It's only fun if you're the one drilling the holes. :smalltongue:

ISTR one of the designers of Exalted mentioned that the more skills a system has, the more incompetent the characters become. The S.U.E. system proves that pretty handily...

I believe the best way to do this is to have general skills (like mecanical devicess (includes locks), electronics devices, programing, chemistry, biology, geology, cooking, build improvised equipment....) and then let people buy a specialization once the meet ex. requirements. So if you have a charactor sufficient ranks in biology and chemistry they could have things like specialization: biochemistry or specialization: Physiology or Specialization: explosives or Specialization: toxicology, and so on. This way skills are broad categories, and the specializations let you get a large bonus on things relating to one subset of that skill.

I also think skills, instead of having lots of points, should have ranks. So you can spend a very small amount of XP or whatever to get novice rank (very basic knowlage) of a skill.

So an untrained cook can follow the instructions on a package of frozen food, boil water, reheat leftovers, etc.

A novice can follow simple recipes. This is like spending an afternoon or two with someone who has a reasonably good idea of what they're doing.

The next rank up could improvise a little and still have things turn out good, and can do more complex techniques (like poaching eggs).

And so on and so forth until you get to a level where you are cooking world-class original recipes and get invited to prepare a meal for nobility or something.

Deffers

2013-04-14, 11:18 PM

Wait, Tumblr has commenting? This is news to me.

I think Wordpress might me marginally better than Blogspot, but I might be misremembering.

Arbane

2013-04-14, 11:31 PM

I believe the best way to do this is to have general skills (like mecanical devicess (includes locks), electronics devices, programing, chemistry, biology, geology, cooking, build improvised equipment....) and then let people buy a specialization once the meet ex. requirements. So if you have a charactor sufficient ranks in biology and chemistry they could have things like specialization: biochemistry or specialization: Physiology or Specialization: explosives or Specialization: toxicology, and so on. This way skills are broad categories, and the specializations let you get a large bonus on things relating to one subset of that skill.

I also think skills, instead of having lots of points, should have ranks. So you can spend a very small amount of XP or whatever to get novice rank (very basic knowlage) of a skill.

It depends a bit on how characters are built in the system, I think. Call of Cthulhu does OK with dozens of different skills because each one can be improved without spending anything but time studying (and possibly money). Exalted just crams all knowledge skills under "Lore" (except for a few under things like Medicine and Occult). Feng Shui makes knowledge part of other skills - if you have a high Guns skill, you can yammer on about muzzle velocities and magazines and whatnot all day.
GURPS and most 'pure' point-buy systems have a passable approach: sinking 1 skill-point into any random skill makes you semi-competent at it, and you get enough points that you won't be gimping yourself to have a few oddball side-skills.
D20 has a fairly poor approach to skills, IMNSHO - skill points per level are generally limited enough to actively DISCOURAGE characters from putting a few points into 'hobby' skills or even things like Knowledge: Local, even if they've lived in the same city all their life.

And it sounds like Chief Circle managed to come up with the worst possible result - well, worst from the point of view of someone who WANTS PCs to be able to do stuff, which was obviously pretty low on his list of priorities. I suspect his skill-'system' was thought up on the spot to Trekkin'-proof his plot-railroad.

"Just keep rolling. I'll let you know when you fail."

Feddlefew

2013-04-14, 11:43 PM

It depends a bit on how characters are built in the system, I think. Call of Cthulhu does OK with dozens of different skills because each one can be improved without spending anything but time studying (and possibly money). Exalted just crams all knowledge skills under "Lore" (except for a few under things like Medicine and Occult). Feng Shui makes knowledge part of other skills - if you have a high Guns skill, you can yammer on about muzzle velocities and magazines and whatnot all day.
GURPS and most 'pure' point-buy systems have a passable approach: sinking 1 skill-point into any random skill makes you semi-competent at it, and you get enough points that you won't be gimping yourself to have a few oddball side-skills.
D20 has a fairly poor approach to skills, IMNSHO - skill points per level are generally limited enough to actively DISCOURAGE characters from putting a few points into 'hobby' skills or even things like Knowledge: Local, even if they've lived in the same city all their life.

And it sounds like Chief Circle managed to come up with the worst possible result - well, worst from the point of view of someone who WANTS PCs to be able to do stuff, which was obviously pretty low on his list of priorities. I suspect his skill-'system' was thought up on the spot to Trekkin'-proof his plot-railroad.

"Just keep rolling. I'll let you know when you fail."

I think "knowlage" skills are redundant. So I agree with the idea of "if your skilled in using X you probably know a lot about its history, and how it works."

The problem with representing skills in a gaming system is that most of them tend to require the other skills. And then the deeper someone goes into a discipline in the real world, the more specialized the tend to become. There's also quite a bit that can be learned about a topic in a day or two, and so the entry-level for a given skill should be pretty cheap. But at the same time, it should take a lot of dedication and resources to get mastery level for a skill.

Edit: I won't say what we've seen the SUE system is the worst way to build a skill system possible.

For one thing, it's still a work in progress.....

Oracle_Hunter

2013-04-15, 12:06 AM

OK, skimming this thread was a nice dose of tragicomedy.

I'm posting this because it might help someone party to this fiasco. From the start it sounds like no two people really had a conception as to what sort of game they'd be playing. To avoid this in the future I recommend the Same Page Tool (http://bankuei.wordpress.com/2010/03/27/the-same-page-tool/). Read it and use it.

Additionally, take a moment to read about Five Geek Social Fallacies (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html). If you've not been exposed to this text before, now seems like a brilliant time to do so.

Between the two of these, perhaps one of you can avoid this situation from happening again. While it is all well and good for us on the Internet to hear about PsychoDMs (tm) and Long Suffering Players, these stories are neither rare nor without cost to their participants.

I wish y'all the best :smallsmile:

EDIT: Well, it looks like Arbane posted the 5GSF link about an hour before I did. Still, the first link is a valuable tool for anyone who enjoys RPGs and (apparently) hasn't seen as wide a circulation as I'd have hoped.

Arbane

2013-04-15, 12:14 AM

The problem with representing skills in a gaming system is that most of them tend to require the other skills. And then the deeper someone goes into a discipline in the real world, the more specialized the tend to become. There's also quite a bit that can be learned about a topic in a day or two, and so the entry-level for a given skill should be pretty cheap. But at the same time, it should take a lot of dedication and resources to get mastery level for a skill.

I've seen a few systems, like CORPS and (I think?) Paranoia that use a 'skill tree' - so for example, you put one point is Basic Education, then you can put one point in Advanced Math or Accounting, and Advanced Math lets you put points in College Math or Engineering, and College Math unlocks Postgrad Math, and THAT lets you put points in Cthulhu Mythos, or whatever...

Edit: I won't say what we've seen the SUE system is the worst way to build a skill system possible.

For one thing, it's still a work in progress.....

True. I'm sure Chief Circle can figure out ways to make it worse. Mandatory catastrophes whenever you roll a one, maybe? "In today's news, five more cases of spontaneous cranial implosion occurred at a surprise history quiz at Benedict Arnold High School. The teacher has been charged with mass murder, high treason, and loitering..."

Trekkin

2013-04-15, 12:17 AM

True. I'm sure Chief Circle can figure out ways to make it worse. Mandatory catastrophes whenever you roll a one, maybe? "In today's news, five more cases of spontaneous cranial implosion occurred at a surprise history quiz at Benedict Arnold High School. The teacher has been charged with mass murder, high treason, and loitering..."

Oh, those sort of exist, by RAW, but he always makes us reroll them when we nat 1.

Geordnet

2013-04-15, 12:24 AM

Oh, those sort of exist, by RAW, but he always makes us reroll them when we nat 1.
...

So the point of that rule is...? :smallconfused:

Feddlefew

2013-04-15, 12:26 AM

...

So the point of that rule is...? :smallconfused:

Well, I mean its sort of like having a sword hanging by a string over the player's head- what happens when the DM doesn't make you reroll them?

Trekkin

2013-04-15, 12:31 AM

Well, I mean its sort of like having a sword hanging by a string over the player's head- what happens when the DM doesn't make you reroll them?

And, too, it's a patch. Whenever he didn't want to deal with a result because "the system isn't complete yet", we would reroll until it went away.

Do I even need to explain that this was brought up and he defended it with 'the system isn't done yet'?

llehctim

2013-04-15, 02:27 AM

comicshorse

2013-04-15, 08:38 AM

He did indeed, with that same smug smile he uses every time someone suggests he change.

I suspect he does, and when this was touched on, he responded with -- and if my paraphrasing is off, I'd welcome correction -- "of course I actually meant under consideration. When I say one of the two, I usually mean the appropriate one regardless of what I actually say."

WTF !
So no matter what he says HE ACTUALLY SAID THE RIGHT THING ANYWAY !
I'm not sure that much concentrated stupid can exist without forming a critical mass

Jornophelanthas

2013-04-15, 09:07 AM

It's typical of a narcissist to assume that everyone else is expected to know his/her thoughts, with the words being said to convey the thoughts being unimportant.

For example, if a narcissist tells someone to come up with a good plan, the other person had better come up with EXACTLY the plan the narcissist thought up for them to come up with, or the narcissist will be disappointed with their "lack of creativity".
(Of course, said pre-thought-up plan will still not work as intended, but that is neither here nor there.)

Morbis Meh

2013-04-15, 10:32 AM

Could someone PM a link to this tumblr page or blog thing, I have been faithfully following this thread since its inception and I really want to be able to see this critque with my own eyes... btw Trekkin and Ilechtim you two are pretty awesome people for dealing with failure of this magnitude.

The Glyphstone

2013-04-15, 11:10 AM

It's 1 or 2 pages back in the thread.

Trekkin

2013-04-15, 11:12 AM

The tumblr has been deleted, Morbis.

Karnith

2013-04-15, 11:14 AM

The tumblr has been deleted, Morbis.
Which is a shame, because it was hilarious.

Scow2

2013-04-15, 11:20 AM

WTF !
So no matter what he says HE ACTUALLY SAID THE RIGHT THING ANYWAY !
I'm not sure that much concentrated stupid can exist without forming a critical mass

It's typical of a narcissist to assume that everyone else is expected to know his/her thoughts, with the words being said to convey the thoughts being unimportant.

For example, if a narcissist tells someone to come up with a good plan, the other person had better come up with EXACTLY the plan the narcissist thought up for them to come up with, or the narcissist will be disappointed with their "lack of creativity".
(Of course, said pre-thought-up plan will still not work as intended, but that is neither here nor there.)

Actually, of all his faults, this really isn't one to get worked up over. It's not a sign of narcissism, just someone with a lack of a perfectly intuitive control of communication. When we want to say something, the words we want tend to run away, forcing us to throw out synonyms, similar sounding words, and sometimes outright nonsense as placeholders, hoping that we can get our point across in spite of ourselves - and if there is confusion (As there always it), backtracking's required to explain what we really meant all along.

Feddlefew

2013-04-15, 11:49 AM

Which is a shame, because it was hilarious.

It'll be back once he finds a good host and feels it's ready to unleash upon the world. :smallwink:

Morbis Meh

2013-04-15, 01:46 PM

The tumblr has been deleted, Morbis.

:smallfrown: Now I am even more bitter about my weekend... could have been laughing it up and relaxing with my fiancee but no fiancee's insecure friend had to force herself upon us for the entire day :smallmad:

fuzzevánt-rex

2013-04-15, 04:09 PM

As much as I enjoy reading your accusations of me throwing you under a bus, and countless Playgrounders, who have never met me, questioning why you would be friends with a malicious bastard like me, as well as your implications that I would tell the GM about this thread out of spite, I would prefer if any of them wish to throw stones at me, that they do it to my face, rather than behind my back on a thread that I follow because run-on sentences and bastardized clauses aside, I feel that I'm really not sure what you were expecting of the confrontation.

You wanted blunt, I wanted political. I'd like to think that I did my best to achieve both.

My first indication that things were going well was that when we sat down with the GM, and he was on his computer with headphones on, and we told him that we wanted to discuss the campaign and give him feedback, he stopped his episode of Next Gen, paused his game, and took his headphones off. I was a little annoyed when Llehctim and EH02 pulled out their own laptops in the middle of the conversation, but it picked up after they put them away because everyone was talking, not just a back and forth between the GM and myself.

We discussed the miscommunications between player and GM, the fact that player perception trumps GM intent. When he said 'I'd take it under advisement', I called him out on it immediately, and questioned him of the meaning of what he had said until he admitted that he meant 'under consideration'. I very explicitly told him how people were interpreting the things he said as arrogant and dismissive and offensive.

He denied that he had told Trekkin 'to do his worst', rather that he had stated exactly the opposite. Rather than go down that path, I deflected the conversation to what I considered the bigger issue. The GM and Trekkin were operating on different assumptions in regards to the allowance of science, and neither of them addressed the possibility that their baseline assumptions differed. Furthermore, the GM had been handling the situation badly, fighting science with science when it wasn't a problem with the science - it was a problem with effect. From the GM's perspective the issue was one of a meta problem, he'd have preferred Trekkin to roll a Craft (explosive) vs. a DC 25 to get a 3d6 explosive with a 15' radius than go over high-school chemistry to back-calculate an effect. He should have confronted him about how he wanted to err on the abstract because he was working with an incomplete system and between all of his scholastic responsibilities didn't have the time to deal with that crap.

So yeah, I agree with his intent, but his delivery was horrible, and we told him as much. Fighting Trekkin on points of science is like feeding a troll, it just encourages him to find something even more outlandish. I believe the metaphor I used was, "It's like you're playing pong with Trekkin, if you want him to stop batting balls at you, you can't keep batting them back. You need to pick up the ball and take it off the table."

You might not have heard me tell him this particular point, since it was while we were moving from point A to point B, but I told the GM that, while I appreciated his pointing out sources of fault in players, the GM is ALWAYS partially accountable, and while we are ALL fallible individuals, only through identifying our own - or HIS own, in his case - weaknesses, can we improve ourselves, and that he has several characteristics, particularly in how he communicates with others, that are directly hindering his GMing.

I explained to him that when "you give players a prophecy, and their immediate reaction is to wonder out loud if it's [the Ao Sue] followed by a sigh of resignation and 'out loud questioning of why they're even still bothering'", it's an "objectionably bad sign." Oh, and while it's cute and all that you took the prophecy verbatim from Cthulhu Tech*, it doesn't make an iota of difference. As the GM, it's your job to facilitate fun, and when the rules and the setting are getting in the way - drop them like they're hot.

*Even the GM couldn't deny the accuracy of my description of CT.
"Yo dawg, I heard you like games, so I stuck Yahtzee in your table-top war game in your RPG in your anime fan-wank, so you can play while you play while you play while you play with yourself."

We talked about the mixed messages in pacing, how we were lost and confused, and various ways - such as actual time skips, emphasis on particular objectives, and meta discussions - that he could avoid such problems in the future. "While I appreciate that YOU had a plan and knew what was going on, that doesn't mean squat if the players are blind and frustrated." Particularly if all we're left with his a square peg and a round hole. Face it, look at who you're players are. Trekkin would try to melt the peg into a liquid, EH02 would keep trying to push it through until it broke or he died of old age, I would try to convince the hole that it was really in its best interest to let the peg through, and Llehctim would convince himself - and anyone else who would listen - that the peg had in fact started on the OTHER side of the hole before we got there and it had already been pushed through so what are we still wasting time here for?

While, it is true that the GM's failures in communication weren't the only issues I addressed, all three of you - as well as I - know that we are nowhere near perfect communicators, and I didn't call anyone out on anything that wasn't true, known, and relevant. As I mentioned last night, I've dealt with people who have problems communicating, specifically when it comes to things like apologizing. Is it easy to fix? No. Is it solved overnight? No. It takes time, when it even works.

And, as I told the GM, "While I respect that he chooses his words very carefully, what someone says isn't worth $#!% if other people aren't interpreting it the way you want them to, and when your words aren't doing what you want them to, you need to go back to the drawing board and reconsider. Unfortunately - or fortunately - we live in a world of human beings, and the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and your words have a way of coming across as arrogant and dismissive."

Sure, at the end of it, there was no 360 change in personality, followed by an epiphanic soliloquy, Bollywood dancing, and a letter to Princess Celestia - but expecting that is a little unreasonable. I was satisfied with the serious conversation dissolving into a half-hour of friendly banter and occasional laughter and failed attempts at silly dance moves before dispersing to retire. I'm sorry that I wasn't able to resolve things to your liking, and that you felt hurt and upset afterwards, that was not my intent. That was never my intent.

I'm sorry that to some of you, this looks like a tragic end. Myself, I see this as just the beginning.

Sincerely,
Group Moral Guardian

Trekkin

2013-04-15, 05:04 PM

Well, so much for keeping you anonymous...you may have assumed several things referred to you that didn't, though.

Although I suppose this does beg the question, "the beginning of what?"

Feddlefew

2013-04-15, 05:38 PM

I'm thinking about how best to respond to you, F. rex. Some things you should be aware of:

1) The DM obviously is lacking certain vital social skills, such as the ones which help people evaluate and change their behavior in response to other people. As a person with Aspergers syndrome, I can tell you that no amount of discussion is going to get through to him unless you basically give him a simple list of behaviors. Talking to him about his wording is helpful, but it's not good enough.

Now I'm not saying the DM has an autism spectrum disorder- he could be a neurotypical person who was socially isolated or who's parents never taught them these skills, or he could just not give a airborne fornication about other people. It's not my call to make, because I obviously haven't met him.
If you really care about him and want to help him, you need to call him out on any socially oblivious things he does, immediately, every single time. This is the only way he's going to learn. Yes, I know this is how parents treat small children, but there is a reason that it's done that way.

2) This system is obviously not ready for a campaign level playtest.

This system is probably barely ready for a series of one-shots focusing on different sub-systems, like different styles of combat, different party builds, and so on.

If this system is "universal", as it's been claimed, then not being able to quickly determine the amount of damage a "new" explosive does is a serious problem- setting up a table for yield-to-damage ratio and another for different "effects" an explosive would effectively solve the problem. The same goes for handling magic effects.

And this is before we get to the fact that every aspect of the system seems to be designed to cripple PCs while allowing NPCs free reign. As a general rule of thumb, either PCs need to be "special" in some way or both NPCs and PCs need to be built using the exact same rules.

3)
If you want take the high ground, you're going to have to read what's being written here more carefully. I was the one who said that Trekkin got thrown under a bus, which he promptly informed me didn't happen. I'm sorry I jumped to conclusions. I did not read Trekkin's statements about you informing the DM of this thread's existence as implying that you would do it out of spite, only that he believed you would in an attempt to maintain your friendship with the DM.

4) Does the DM seriously believe he has psychic abilities? Has he ever implied that to you? Because that's not healthy, like believing in magic water that remembers things so it can cure people.

Edit:

Although I suppose this does beg the question, "the beginning of what?"

Obviously the next cycle in this...... Well, I can't remember the word for it. It's not exactly an abusive relationship. I think.

llehctim

2013-04-15, 05:58 PM

Its not that its reached a bad end, particularly, but I don't expect I will be able to spare a continuous effort to fix something that is broken, but not my job to fix (ie the system). I will continue to try and playtest in his 1shots and perhaps those will go better with the advice given. If asked I will give feedback, but at this point anything more I do (besides minor conversations if they are brought up, and probably even those) will lead to non-constructive results so I would rather spend my time working on my ever increasing piles of schoolwork.

I thought the talk went pretty ok, but I thought that about the first several talks between Trekkin and the GM as well, which turned out to have not gone well in hindsight, so my pessimism kicks in and assumes until proven otherwise I don't know if the talk was successful or not.

jindra34

2013-04-15, 06:17 PM

F. Rex; One is that the conflict had to some degree come to an end before you dragged everyone back together to have the conflict resolution and stirred up the dying embers of. Yes Trekkin was posting what might be considered nasty and scathing remarks about the DM, and yes he wanted to setup a blog detailing the troubles. But you'll note that he pretty explicitly tried not to give anyone the information they would need to actually apply those stories to the person who was the DM. He was, in essence, venting and letting off the anger in a relatively non-destructive way. And you have potentially taken that away from him.

Two; There is a HUGE difference between being a mediator, and a translator in conflict resolution situations. In the future let everyone speak their mind, no matter no emotional, long winded, or otherwise bad it is before trying to settle the issue. Yeah it won't be always be nice, friendly, or as you put it 'political' but then not every issue CAN be addressed in such a manner. And definitely not one that has likely been simmering for years.

And the Third point; Don't make excuses for anyone who is a part of this issue for them. You'll just facilitate the problem and become ever bit as much a part of it as the others involved.

Thank you and I am so glad you posted.

Jornophelanthas

2013-04-15, 06:44 PM

Wow, that is four out of five participants in a single campaign responding in the same thread, each giving their own perspective. Has that ever happened on this forum?

---

@fuzzevánt-rex:
When I try to look at the outcome of the mediation attempt, extrapolating the DM's position from how multiple people describe his reactions, I see the following picture:

1. Trekkin admits to feeling shamed for posting on the internet and pressured to apologize to the DM, which he does not want to.
2. The DM smiles and nods, saying that he is "willing to consider" everything that is being said to him.

The most likely difference here is that the things you said to either or both of them appear to have affected Trekkin at an emotional level, but not the DM, who apparently just reserved the right to brush off any comment he wouldn't like. Even though you called the DM on that attitude, all he had to do to get you off his back was to say it again, "but with feeling".

While you may have been trying to reconcile two people, one of them ended up feeling bad, while the other appears largely unaffected. With all due respect, I am of the opinion that you got played by the DM.

fuzzevánt-rex

2013-04-15, 07:33 PM

Trekkin -
1) I don't see how I've changed the status quo of anonymity.
2) The beginning of everything else, I guess.

Feddlefew -
1) Yeah, I know he has social issues. Everyone in our group (myself included) does. I appreciate your advice. In retrospect, that may have been a very good idea, and I'll certainly take that into consideration in the future.

2) On the one hand, I absolutely agree, and I don't think that anything could demonstrate better than this campaign has about it's lacking. That said, the GM has also used the campaign as an excuse to inspire him to work on those parts of the system. That said, he's far too busy with other things to give the system the attention it needed to help the campaign. So, I guess it's been good for the system to push him to work on spell-casting and skill-focused characters specifically, but it was not at all healthy for the campaign... as I think everyone has seen.

3) I will admit that taking the moral high ground is something that I do often, and I apologize if I put words in other people's mouths. It was still hurtful reading many things on this thread after having left the group discussion on what appeared to be a positive note, rather than being told directly.

4) In the four years that I have known him, I have never heard such outside of a joking manor, at least not anymore than anyone else I've talked to. Although really, can you disprove magic? Hmm? :smalltongue:

jindra34
1) I'm not sure what you mean by "potentially taken that away from him", but I never intended to tell the GM about this, that wouldn't end well for ANYONE. I was in support of the RPG horror story tumblr. Yeah, **** happens in games, things go up in balls of flames. Llehctim's kamikaze D&D story? I was the DM for that, and it was a ****ty situation, and mostly my fault. It's a great cautionary tale. My only problem with this thread is the "nasty, scathing remarks" as you say. Not Trekkin's tho. The hundreds of horrible things you guys have said about the GM, a person that you've never met, and who's a good friend of mine. I know you are well meaning people, but that doesn't sit right with me. Other than that, I've rather enjoyed this thread and the great stories and discussions, and as long as things don't degrade to personal attacks, I'm okay with it.

2) All four of us were sitting down together, and I don't think I prevented anyone from talking. I tried to get everyone to talk, specifically so it wasn't just me and the GM talking in front of everyone. I only spoke on behalf of people after asking if they would prefer that I did. Looking back, yeah, the last part of the discussion did seem to dissolve into me monologuing, but I felt that other people weren't being as blunt as they agreed to be. I'm sorry if I got in the way of anyone saying anything.

3) I'm sorry if I did. That was not my intention.

Jornophelanthas-
I'm not sure if this is what you were implying, but this forum thread never came up. I have had a follow up conversation with Trekkin, but not yet with the GM, so I'm going to reserve comment on this. The only thing I told Trekkin that I thought he should apologize for - which I stated was my opinion and that it was up to him - was for a particular comment he told the GM on the suggestion of a Playgrounder.

Trekkin

2013-04-15, 07:40 PM

The only thing I told Trekkin that I thought he should apologize for - which I stated was my opinion and that it was up to him - was for a particular comment he told the GM on the suggestion of a Playgrounder.

That comment being the suggestion to seek help.

jindra34

2013-04-15, 07:46 PM

Frex: Read this post http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15091615&postcount=1145. Its even in this very thread. You may not have intended it to have those consequences, but you brought him into the environment that lead to them with your attempt at conflict resolution. For something that was resolving. Because you didn't want to have the group potentially become two groups. Road to hell be paved with good intentions indeed.

Arbane

2013-04-15, 07:48 PM

That said, he's far too busy with other things to give the system the attention it needed to help the campaign.

If he's got time to run the game, he's got time to make the rules less terrible.

Although really, can you disprove magic? Hmm? :smalltongue:

EASILY. If magic really worked, the Ghost Dance would've brought back the buffalo, the Righteous and Harmonious Fists would've driven the Europeans out of China, and the Inquisition would've lost a lot of witch finders to sudden amphibianism.
And the Nazis would've won World War II, so it's not ALL bad magic doesn't exist.

The hundreds of horrible things you guys have said about the GM, a person that you've never met, and who's a good friend of mine. I know you are well meaning people, but that doesn't sit right with me.

My sympathies, but if even half the stuff Trekkin and llectim have said is true, he's a ignorant, egocentric dingbat with delusions of adequacy and a terrible GM. And if he wants to defend his GMing here, I'm looking forward to it.

Trekkin

2013-04-15, 07:58 PM

My sympathies, but if even half the stuff Trekkin and llectim have said is true, he's a ignorant, egocentric dingbat with delusions of adequacy and a terrible GM. And if he wants to defend his GMing here, I'm looking forward to it.

I'm not.

I don't like Chief Circle. I really don't like the guy. Everything he says and does somehow manages to rub me the wrong way, and the best way I know to deal with that is to get and stay far enough away to stop that from happening, then vent until I can laugh about it. That said, I don't want to see him traumatized by forty-one pages of people tearing apart his work and his methods, because that's going to make it that much harder for him to fix these problems.

Besides, from his perspective, none of what we've said could possibly be true, and his perspective kind of rubs off on people. I really can't see any good outcomes to making him think about all this.

Feddlefew

2013-04-15, 08:22 PM

Although really, can you disprove magic? Hmm? :smalltongue:
It happens all the time. For instance, we now know that a dally multivitamin is unnecessary and potentially harmful for people eating a healthy diet. :smallwink:

jindra34
1) I'm not sure what you mean by "potentially taken that away from him", but I never intended to tell the GM about this, that wouldn't end well for ANYONE. I was in support of the RPG horror story tumblr. Yeah, **** happens in games, things go up in balls of flames. Llehctim's kamikaze D&D story? I was the DM for that, and it was a ****ty situation, and mostly my fault. It's a great cautionary tale. My only problem with this thread is the "nasty, scathing remarks" as you say. Not Trekkin's tho. The hundreds of horrible things you guys have said about the GM, a person that you've never met, and who's a good friend of mine. I know you are well meaning people, but that doesn't sit right with me. Other than that, I've rather enjoyed this thread and the great stories and discussions, and as long as things don't degrade to personal attacks, I'm okay with it.

So he's what happens.

After awhile, people who have to regularly deal with socially maladjusted people (and sociopaths*) learn to recognize the tells. All of the information we have on the GM basically points to an extremely narcissistic, small minded person who is always right, even if reality disagrees with them. I've had to deal with a lot of them as a tutor in highschool.

We also start to recognize that they tend to surround themselves with people who, in the name of being nice, are willing to put up with them to avoid hurting their feelings. These people are enablers. Sometimes, you have to tell of your friends because they're behaving badly. It's part of being a good friend

I understand there are lines separating the boundary between "criticizing" and "bullying" someone that can be crossed. I believe the vast majority of posters (including the people you know IRL) have respected that line.

*Not saying the DM is one.

Tanuki Tales

2013-04-15, 08:34 PM

Feddlefew

2013-04-15, 08:37 PM

I think I can speak for a lot of the playgrounders here that, in regards to what we said about Chief Circle, we were just calling it as we saw it.

Now, I think I can also speak for folks here, we'd love to see some evidence to the contrary that paints Chief Circle as not being what we've "called" him as, but that doesn't exactly seem to be forth coming.

I don't think he's mentally mature enough to handle +40 pages of strangers not handling him with kid gloves. I don't know how he'll react, but it won't be good.

Deffers

2013-04-15, 08:38 PM

Hey, F. Rex. I feel like I might be one of the people who rubbed you the wrong way, so I just wanted to explain myself.

Firstly, if you didn't say you were thinking about telling the GM anything about this, then you've not done anything wrong. However, I'm pretty sure there was discussion going around about someone TELLING the GM about this thread and or this blog.

And that's where my comments came into play. Telling someone you're considering to tell the DM would have been pretty much just the worst. Seeing as you haven't, that'll bring me to the next thing.

I think you may be too nice on this guy. Apparently, he's seriously talked to Trekkin about energy fields and stuff that he can manipulate with his mind. If CC's joking about this, well, Trekkin may need to have some 'splainin' to do-- as it stands, I don't think Trekkin's lying. Otherwise? Look, I can tell you it's not healthy for him to sincerely believe he's his self-insert, and the comments that have been made indicate that's the case.

From what else I remember, CC was saying mean things to Trekkin "behind his back" (by which I mean Skyping people about him while Trekkin could see what was being said). Again, this isn't something you can just smooth over. Trust me. Look, I've been in a situation where I've seen what hurtful comments behind someone's back can do, and a mediator's job once a relationship gets to that point isn't to be diplomatic. At all. It's to keep it from being an out-and-out crap-slinging match as everyone says everything they need to say before they go separate ways.

There's forty pages of reading here, and some of it is... well, it paints a significantly more different light on CC then what you're saying. And I'm reluctant to believe that Trekkin is lying here. I dunno if you read all the pages or not, but if the DM really your friend it may behoove you to investigate some of the stuff here first, because he really does need to seek help if it's the case. It's bad.

EDIT: Feddlefew's comment about enabling is what I'm talking about when I'm saying you're being too nice, BTW. It might be that your desire to be polite, while well-rooted, might not be the best thing for your friend.

Tanuki Tales

2013-04-15, 08:38 PM

I don't think he's mentally mature enough to handle +40 pages of strangers not handling him with kid gloves. I don't know how he'll react, but it won't be good.

I meant more Fuzz successfully refuting the claims made about Chief Circle to some degree. Hell, any degree for that matter.

Trekkin

2013-04-15, 08:57 PM

I think you may be too nice on this guy. Apparently, he's seriously talked to Trekkin about energy fields and stuff that he can manipulate with his mind. If CC's joking about this, well, Trekkin may need to have some 'splainin' to do-- as it stands, I don't think Trekkin's lying. Otherwise? Look, I can tell you it's not healthy for him to sincerely believe he's his self-insert, and the comments that have been made indicate that's the case.

If he's joking, then I'm not getting any of a considerable series of jokes or musing or whatever. I would love for that to be all that's happening here, but I don't think even I'm that dense, and the context doesn't fit his sense of humor. He's not the type to joke without telling that he's joking, if that makes sense.

Frankly, I don't want to wade into the sea of waffle he will undoubtedly spout regarding psychic...ness before emphatically denying he's crazy, if ever he's asked about it with even a hint of disapproval. All I know is what he's told me.

And there probably is evidence that he's other than what we've presented him as. He's good at looking like different things to different people. Unfortunately, I was the one who started this thread, so you get Chief Circle the Loony Tyrant, because the first time he tried his oily, condescending schmoozing on me I told him in no uncertain terms where to stick it (I had diagrams), and I don't think he's ever quite trusted me since, so we naturally assume less than the best of each other and that contention shapes our interactins. I know he's handed different mechanics than other party members for equivalent tasks, for one thing.

He may be a quite reasonable individual to some people. He has not been to me, and whatever he's been to EH02 and llehctim has mandated only the corrections that you see.

Feddlefew

2013-04-15, 09:02 PM

There's forty pages of reading here, and some of it is... well, it paints a significantly more different light on CC then what you're saying. And I'm reluctant to believe that Trekkin is lying here. I dunno if you read all the pages or not, but if the DM really your friend it may behoove you to investigate some of the stuff here first, because he really does need to seek help if it's the case. It's bad.

Don't we have two other people (Llehctim and EH02) also giving supporting accounts of how bad CC DMing is? Including that one where Llehctim was still recovering from wis damage revived from a discussion with CC?

We're at the point where even if everything has been exaggerated by Trekkin, the theoretical un-exaggerated version would probably hold a high rank in the terrible GM hall of fame.

----

Actually this entire thing reminds me a bit of a certain webcomic that has a large.... snarking we'll say, on this forum.... :smalltongue:

We even have a number of people who went from "It can't possibly be that bad." to "This is a horrifying train wreak and I can't stop watching. Please keep us updated."

Arbane

2013-04-15, 09:24 PM

We even have a number of people who went from "It can't possibly be that bad." to "This is a horrifying train wreak and I can't stop watching. Please keep us updated."

Not even just here. This thread got mentioned in a Bad GM Story thread on Somethingawful.com, though thankfully they removed all the names.

Ozfer

2013-04-15, 09:51 PM

I hate to jump in here, but I think the real thing to learn here is that on the internet, anything can go too far. No matter how bad a DM this guy is, I don't think it's really fair to memorialize it forever.

GITP is a shining example of humanity, and I think everyone here has good intentions, but this type of thing could be massively hurtful to CC, to the point where it could cause serious emotional damage (2d4 at least).

CoffeeIncluded

2013-04-15, 09:52 PM

Oh, please link that.

Deffers

2013-04-15, 09:52 PM

...Oh. Oh my. Yeah, that's pretty... yeah. I can only imagine it'll begin making its way to the other place's relevant board sooner rather than later.

Geordnet

2013-04-15, 10:03 PM

:eek:

Yeah, if you guys are worried about linking him to a respectable forum like this one, imagine what would happen if this spills over to... A place I don't even want to name...

The trolls would revel in the flame war straight out of the ith level of the inferno.

llehctim

2013-04-15, 10:15 PM

Also I think he can be a pretty good GM, and was for a few one-shots we ran, but in this campaign its been rather ... less than stellar, the largest stressor to me has been the fact that my two friends are conflicting, and the fact that I didn't see this coming soon enough to prevent fallout at a time when everyone was stressed, although I think it is not as bad as it could have been, and has a chance to be better.
Honestly I think the system could be a decent system if given a little work, but it is not campaign worthy as and form of free-roam, if its a plot-driven storybook plot or something that can be scripted (which can be fun if its agreed to in advance) it can work as a playtest, but leaving the players to their own devices while having large gaps led to issues. Not to mention the plot. For example the game EH02 and I were in was actually kindof fun (barring the epilogueish thing that I'm pretty sure I could have accepted had I known nothing about the Sue, since most BBEGs start off as people trying to unify everything and slowly/quickly being corrupted and needing to be killed by heroes. And even that gave EH02 one of the most epic deaths I have seen a PC have.)
I tend to take both sides in an argument, honestly hes not as bad as alot of you seem to think he is, but he does have some things that have led to this being a very problematic campaign, and gets along with Trekkin badly, which in hindsight has been relatively consistent, but I just kindof assumed it was a bantering thing, I forgot the escalation problem.

Tanuki Tales

2013-04-15, 10:21 PM

I tend to take both sides in an argument, honestly hes not as bad as alot of you seem to think he is, but he does have some things that have led to this being a very problematic campaign, and gets along with Trekkin badly, which in hindsight has been relatively consistent, but I just kindof assumed it was a bantering thing, I forgot the escalation problem.

Please do elaborate.

Feddlefew

2013-04-15, 10:22 PM

I was talking about something entirely different than your DM's old webcomic.

Unless your DM happens to be vegan and obsessed with the power of METAL.

Deffers

2013-04-15, 10:24 PM

Yeah, no, seriously. Everyone but Trekkin says some variant of this ("he's not so bad,") and so far we're mostly thinking Stockholm Syndrome's nicer cousin who sits you down and pores over slideshows of his one trip to Cancun in '78 instead of tying you up in his car's truck and flying down the highway at 90 MPH.

So, I mean, if you've got some explanation of HOW he is better than what we've seen, give it to us.

Geordnet

2013-04-15, 10:30 PM

Trekkin

2013-04-15, 10:34 PM

Well, from what llehctim has said, he isn't a total failure as a DM.

As long as the true nature of the Sue is kept in the dark from the players, his campaigns can be decent (at least according to llehctim).

It's only when you're someone who Chief Circle doesn't like, such as Trekkin, that he becomes unbearable to play with.

Or involved with someone CC doesn't like. That said, he's not all that bad at running straight dungeon crawls written by other people. All the times I've watched, there have been fairly fundamental problems with getting information to the players (and Grapple checks unto infinity) but in that environment he can deal with player output fairly well. Straight-up damage dealers otherwise disengaged from the campaign generally don't find themselves too badly adjusted.

EDIT: It also helps not to think, and I'm not being facetious here. If you uncritically accept that everything in the setting is true only as long as it needs to be to thwart players from too badly disrupting the setting, he can tell whatever story he wants to tell in that environment, and everyone is less stressed all around.

EDIT EDIT: The CoC one-shot was largely a matter of the players having no idea what to do and therefore desperately looking for a plot hook, and being allowed to founder amusingly.

llehctim

2013-04-15, 10:36 PM

We played a call of cthulu one shot where we pretty much intentionally did everything wrong and ended up replacing the cultists and abusing the crud out of time travel. Torturing cultists with interesting methods, disturbing messages in blood from the Police.

In a game that basically has no plot he was actually pretty ok with letting us get away with hilarious stuff. Also in the game EH02 and I were in, while I didn't like the plot there were several opportunities to creatively invent new spells/minions which I found fun, since I am awesome at magical theory, if I do say so myself :smallcool:.

The major issues with Games he has been playing started showing up when the Sue showed up and the using an unfinished system to run a full campaign.

I will admit that I like to overlook people's flaws, mostly because I am too busy pointing out my own and hoping no-one else is too judgmental of my issues.

Sith_Happens

2013-04-15, 11:06 PM

I will admit that I like to overlook people's flaws, mostly because I am too busy pointing out my own and hoping no-one else is too judgmental of my issues.

Which, rather ironically, is the only particularly glaring flaw you've demonstrated so far in the course of this thread.

...Well, that, and a serious on-and-off disregard for paragraph breaks.:smalltongue:

Feddlefew

2013-04-15, 11:15 PM

I will admit that I like to overlook people's flaws, mostly because I am too busy pointing out my own and hoping no-one else is too judgmental of my issues.

You are an extremely tolerant and easy going person. Although you sound like you're depressed right now, and understandably so. :smallfrown:

llehctim

2013-04-15, 11:27 PM

Which, rather ironically, is the only particularly glaring flaw you've demonstrated so far in the course of this thread.

...Well, that, and a serious on-and-off disregard for paragraph breaks.:smalltongue:

I have tons of flaws, I'm just not really going out of my way to point them out, and I try to overcome them/make them work for me, at some point I'll get around to fixing my procrastination tenancies that I picked up in college. And I have the potentially major issue of roleplaying too well as my character which has several times caused distress from the rest of the group, since the characters I play have this tendency to share some of my negative traits.

I will also admit a tendency to ramble.

Geordnet

2013-04-15, 11:58 PM

And the fact that you readily admit to your flaws indicates that you already have one less than most people. :smalltongue:

Jornophelanthas

2013-04-16, 08:28 AM

Jornophelanthas-
I'm not sure if this is what you were implying, but this forum thread never came up. I have had a follow up conversation with Trekkin, but not yet with the GM, so I'm going to reserve comment on this. The only thing I told Trekkin that I thought he should apologize for - which I stated was my opinion and that it was up to him - was for a particular comment he told the GM on the suggestion of a Playgrounder.

Ok, I misunderstood exactly what the desired apology was about.

My point still stands, though. Trekkin felt pressured into submission, while the DM reserved the right to dismiss the possibility that he did anything wrong at all (as long as he professes to really think about it).

What I was implying, was that the DM may know you well enough to know how to act around you to effectively satisfy your standards (without appeasing Trekkin). And since you took charge of the mediation attempt, all he needed to do was to appease YOU (and not Trekkin) to be let off the hook.
What I am saying is that he may have hoodwinked you into advocating his side more than Trekkin's, without you even noticing.

You may not like me saying this, but it is not intended in bad spirit. I am only asking you to reflect on your own position, and to consider the possibility that your integrity may have been used by one party in this conflict as a means to gain an advantage over the other.

---

And finally, I believe Trekkin's suggestion to the DM to seek professional help was made out of genuine concern for his mental health (and not out of spite), just delivered extremely bluntly to the point of being counterproductive.
That may require an apology from Trekkin, but at the very least the DM should then also acknowledge Trekkin's intent, i.e. concern for him. If neither are willing to take these steps (not even as a trade-off to one another), then having them part ways without further grudges would be the best way to move forward.

Trekkin

2013-04-16, 09:26 AM

If neither are willing to take these steps (not even as a trade-off to one another), then having them part ways without further grudges would be the best way to move forward.

I've been advocating this vociferously, and apparently I've failed to communicate the depth of the problem.

I cannot trust anything the GM says, and I cannot trust him to acknowledge anything I say. Under those circumstances, I can't see any point to talking uselessly at him and receiving a litany of empty platitudes in return. I didn't see any point before we tried this grand campaign recap/intervention, and nothing that happened there convinced me of anything other than this: Chief can make his friends say anything he wants and mean it, given enough time, bull, and emotional investment in his welfare. He's managed to create an environment where everyone being happy is better than anyone being right -- and then forced him being right as a prerequisite to anyone being happy.

That's toxic enough to my way of thinking to justify getting out and staying out. Conveniently, this solution precludes reaching other solutions, which dovetails nicely with my inability to trust other solutions.

If I never speak to Chief or his associates again, he can't hurt me anymore. I can't trust that to be the case for any 'political' answer to this problem.

The suggestion that I should jeopardize that security just for the chance to keep talking to someone like Chief is frankly insulting. Not that anyone's suggested it on here.

SiuiS

2013-04-16, 03:02 PM

And my brain finally boots on how to express the skill system's badness. Its like its cobbled together from the unique parts of a whole bunch of systems, with out including any of the parts that they share in common.

That is, admittedly, quite a feat.

I mostly do bracelets. I find fewer people point and laugh or try to play hot potato with my materials if I'm making something small.

The more I think about it, the less I like my college...

EDIT: And Alejandro, I wish I could think that way. In my experience, though, karma will end up sat down with Chief Circle like everyone else, and our resident moralizer will talk for hours until everyone agrees we all made some mistakes and there were some unfortunate miscommunications and it's all right really, we're all still friends...

Unfortunately, my attempts to move the conversation in a more productive direction never end well. Probably because they have in the past taken the form of frenzied ranting about how absurd it is to try to pass this stuff of as 'a difference in DMing styles', since anything not conciliatory enough to imply no need for improvement is rejected as the ravings of a madman.

Which of course in this case they are, but I'm doubtful about how automatically that makes them untrue.

I had a guy like that in our group, once.

There was a point where I spent three solid months trying to keep him involved. He had moved several cities over, and I arranged without fail for a ride to be at his house so he could come into town and play. He missed every ride, and had the audacity on top of it to say that my logisitical juggling and pouring gas money and food money down the drain to bring him into town, was just me "rubbing his nose in not being able to play with us".

I told him off, cut him off, and haven't dealt with him since. And everyone breathes easier for it.

There is a point where "we are all still friends" means "I won't pull the trigger if you don't", and that's not friendship. Thats a cold war nonhostility pact.

*polite cough*

word.

Real friends don't stop being your friends just because some other asshat friend told them to, without a good, actual reason, or talking to you first to see what's up. Anyone who does is a crappy excuse for a friend, and should be excised from your life like a tumor. You'll meet new people.

See my signature, yes?

SaintRidley

2013-04-16, 03:25 PM

Okay, so I'm still catching up on this thread, but I saw this and had to post before I lost the thought.

In answer to Arbane's question: we have sessions every Sunday 6PM-midnight Eastern time, but we hang out a lot outside of session just because, and sometimes session-related things come up.

Thankfully, we've finally found at least part of the key to surviving Chief Circle's Crazy Adventure: leveraging his ignorance to defeat his obstructiveness.

Put another way, making stuff up as rapidly as possible.

It's like taking a real-time SAT verbal; the trick for me wasn't to answer as correctly as possible but to answer as close to the general perception of an intelligent high school student as possible. In this case, it's a bit worse than that, but the basic principle remains: buy into the world as he understands it and suddenly one's plans are clever instead of disruptive.

We need a warehouse to meet in? Hey, there are warehouses for Limburger cheese right? Let's go there. Obviously they're not inhabited; who wants to smell Limburger all day, am I right?
Limburger get stored in big waxed wheels, yes? Like all really good cheese. And we can scrape out the middle of the cheese and replace it with Henderson blend coffee , then re-wax it real quick, right?
Because of course you wax cheese in big giant vats of wax kept constantly liquid like adamantium.
Black wax. Because the bacteria in Limburger die in sunlight, you see?

And so on and so forth, simplifying the world in ways that incidentally help our cause. Before, I literally could not make a pointy stick. Now? Now I can make curd howitzers by taping ten kilos of 'coffee' to the side of a curdling tub and dropping another ten in the bottom, set to go off in quick succession. Said devices do almost nothing, but it is amusing to realize he's gotten curdling tubs confused with foundry ladles.

It is also fun to set the signal for the Tagers to leap out to the same signal that sets off a hundred kilos of 'coffee' mixed with an equal amount of magnesium in the cheese racks behind us.

While I shoot a net gun at point-blank range into the guy we're allegedly negotiating with. From under the table. Ouch.

Now, we still have yet to receive an explanation for why the XP was split seven ways between six allied combatants, three of them NPCs (two of whom did nothing) and there are some...liberties taken with chemistry, but hey. I got to sit down opposite a lich (not that we knew that), spend several minutes talking with him while our allies confirmed his associates' identities, and then ask him something I've been meaning to ask someone for a while now.

As it happens, he did not know where me wee men were.

But it was fun to make the wall explode by asking.

Now, we've also gotten him more or less overjoyed that with our immediate job done, we can wait for orders, so we can play even further into his hands...and along the way, get things established for our coup de grace.

So, basically destroying the game through enthusiastic conformity? It's fascinating that I come across this today because I have just been reading some Zizek for a seminar I'm in, and that is his proposed formulation for revolution. The overt challenge to the system only results in the mounting of a defense. A true and effective challenge to the system requires one to enthusiastically embrace the system, killing it with kindness. Basically, taking the system and following it to its extremes - he uses this to discuss the way out of global capitalism and how a certain religion broke the dialectic between law and transgression (which each need the other to perpetuate themselves) by adhering to the law so fully that the law canceled itself out. I'd be more specific, but politics and real world religion and all. Anyway, I was finding myself a bit skeptical of the practicality of this solution, and then I saw this post. And I understand Zizek's point now.

Okay, back to reading the rest of the thread so I can see how this glorious trainwreck continues.