Banning/nerfing Mind Blank (and True Seeing)

[SilverLeaf167]

If I were to simply ban Mind Blank completely (from PCs and NPCs alike), would it have any notable negative impact on the game? Like most people, I find it frustrating that a single spell can totally ruin a very popular archetype, or even most of a class (Beguiler). If banning it would be too big of a change, could it at least be converted to some sort of an opposed caster level check, or should I perhaps homebrew a spell specifically designed to counter it? Should the Protection From [Alignment] line be given the same treatment?

In the same vein, could True Seeing's illusion-piercing effect be turned into a caster level check as well? Normally, True Seeing and Mind Blank can together turn a Beguiler into a Rogue with less skills and combat capability.

[Crake]

Nobody like's spending the session in the corner because the DM dominated their character and now they don't get to play. Mind blank solves that problem, imo that's a good thing

[Yora]

I don't see any problem. Almost all the games I ever played never went beyond 10th level and nobody ever had access to these spells. I don't see how there could be any problems, except possibly making some high-level munchkin builds unfeasable.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I don't see any problem. Almost all the games I ever played never went beyond 10th level and nobody ever had access to these spells. I don't see how there could be any problems, except possibly making some high-level munchkin builds unfeasable.If you've never played in a situation where Mind Blank would come up, how would you know it's not a problem? How would you even figure that only munchkin builds use it?

In my experience by the time Mind Blank comes around it's much harder to defend than it is to attack. Removing Mind Blank just adds rockets to the rocket tag. Also, it's commonly used as a buff on the more susceptible, lower-tier members of the group. Casters have other ways of defending themselves against mental attacks, but mundanes often need the support.

Also, True Seeing costs money and doesn't last that long. If someone is using up money and spell slots just in case they realize True Seeing is relevant, IMO they've paid for their illusion counter. Even if you ban Mind Blank (or nerf the duration) I wouldn't ban True Seeing.

[JeminiZero]

The problem with banning Mindblank is that it basically is going to nerf players terribly. Consider the following:

1) Monsters do not rely on Mind Blank for their immunity to mind affecting. Basically it comes from type (Undead, Construct, Plant, Ooze, Vermin) or templates (Half-Fey, Voidmind) or they simply have it outright even if their type normally does not (Feytouched, Abominations).

2) Many (though not all) Monsters which use mind-affecting powers can spam them (e.g. Succubus can Charm and Suggestion at will, Balors and Vampires have Dominate at will). This is made worse by the fact that often, these spamable mind powers are usually SLAs with no somatic or verbal component (in other words, nothing to indicate their use). A Succubus can shapechange into a commoner, pretend to be resting by an inn corner, and basically Charm the whole party into being her puppets. Because when they do succeed on their saves, they have no idea where it is coming from, and have 6 seconds to try something before having to reroll their save.

In short, when Mindblank (and other mind protection spells) are absent, the players are no more effective. Whereas the Monsters become grossly overpowered.

[SilverLeaf167]

Hmm, I guess most of your points are pretty good. Still, even if removing Mind Blank would upset the game balance (even further), I'm kind of disappointed to see one of my favorite classes (Beguiler) rendered totally irrelevant at high levels (most of their high-level combat spells are mind-effecting), though I guess that a lot of classes in D&D get that treatment already.

Even if Mind Blank annoys me, your points on True Seeing are pretty solid. I guess I'll leave this whole mess alone for now and take a closer look if a player ever wants to focus on enchantments.

The way things are discussed online can be a little provoking sometimes (no big surprise there)... I guess I sort of exaggerated the problem in my head after seeing so many people repeatedly remark how enchantments and illusions are completely useless at high levels.

[JeminiZero]

I'm kind of disappointed to see one of my favorite classes (Beguiler) rendered totally irrelevant at high levels (most of their high-level combat spells are mind-effecting)

Its arguably easier to make the beguiler more relevant by tweaking the beguiler, than by meddling with the one of the fundamental components of game balance. E.g. Add the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation series to their spell list. Increase reality of the Shadow series. Or let them use slave-maker tactics, where even if the undead they are fighting are immune to their powers, they are not immune to the claws of the bears the Beguiler has dominated.

[Psyren]

You could always use the Pathfinder versions instead. PF Mind Blank nerfed outright enchantment immunity into a save bonus, while PF Protection from X is alignment-dependent.

[Alefiend]

If you're worried about high-level Beguilers becoming unstoppable with Mind Blank, make the spell a two-way barrier. While under its effects, no mental effects get in OR out. You can defend yourself against mind attacks, but you can't make any either.

True Seeing is trickier mechanically. I would try turning it into something like a wizard's Sight from The Dresden Files. You see the true nature of everything, which is a path to madness if you keep your third eye open all the time. Looking at something truly horrible (demon lords, gods, eldritch abominations) will scar your mind and turn you into a raving lunatic or a catatonic meatbag if you do it for too long or too often.

Better still, don't change anything. If the players are willing and able to expend the resources, they should get the benefits.

[ericgrau]

Hmm, I guess most of your points are pretty good. Still, even if removing Mind Blank would upset the game balance (even further), I'm kind of disappointed to see one of my favorite classes (Beguiler) rendered totally irrelevant at high levels (most of their high-level combat spells are mind-effecting), though I guess that a lot of classes in D&D get that treatment already.
Rule 1 to overcoming defenses isn't to assault the defense head on, it's to switch attack types or to switch targets. Find those who are vulnerable and then have your minions do the fighting for you. With careful planning a dominated army is epic.

[Deophaun]

Nobody like's spending the session in the corner because the DM dominated their character and now they don't get to play. Mind blank solves that problem, imo that's a good thing
So does protection from evil, and it's easier to get.

[gartius]

if you are going to ban mindblank why not ban other big offenders-freedom of movement, wind wall. Stuff that can ruin melee/ranged only stick.

[Andion Isurand]

I wouldn't mind having an alternative to Mind Blank that provides a large save bonus against info-gathering divination effects and mind-affecting effects, and the ability not to automatically fail such saves when rolling a natural 1.

That way I could enjoy the effect of beneficial morale effects.

[Story]

You already can. Check page 177 of the PHB.

[Snowbluff]

if you are going to ban mindblank why not ban other big offenders-freedom of movement, wind wall. Stuff that can ruin melee/ranged only stick.

Um, Grappling is not a player option. It's what happens when one of your players gets his wisdom teeth and decides to play doped up on painkillers. The same goes for underwater combat. FoM stays.

I'd play in a game with no Mindblank... if you ban the divinations it protects you from and the entire enchantment school. While you are at it, ban all of Abjuration. God forbid the school meant for defense gets to be effective.

[strider24seven]

Um, Grappling is not a player option. It's what happens when one of your players gets his wisdom teeth and decides to play doped up on painkillers.

Um, Black Blood Cultist says hi.
Druids say hi too.
So do Bear Totem Barbarians.
So do people using polymorph/shapechange.
So do people who uses summoned monsters.
So do people who use planar binding or gate.
So do people who use beefy hirelings/followers.
And, most relevantly to your everyday game: Evard's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion Black Tentacles say hi.

Grappling is very much a player option... it's just that certain characters can utilize it much better (read: that can use it to any degree of effectiveness) than others. The rules are also a pain to keep track of- keep that PHB open to the grapple rules!

RE: Underwater combat:
Believe it or not, some sessions actually take place underwater. Sometimes there's combat there.

I would be in favour of offering a +X to Y vs Z alternative to Mind Blank and FoM rather than just outright immunity. Enchanters tend to become bitter after being reduced to weaker Conjurers/Evokers after their 4th zombie encounter of the day.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, when you grapple someone you are grappled too!

It's a novel concept. :smalltongue:

Only Gating, summoning, and leadership really work for grappling, and all of those are obnoxiously strong regardless. An actual PC has better things to be doing.

Touche on the Tentacles, though. Too bad they don't get bigger than Large. They aren't really players, either.

Never have I had a player go "We should lure the enemy combatant to fight us underwater!" I think you'd be better off not risking drowning yourself. Using underwater combat as a tactic is not common for players. Monsters will often attack you underwater at every give opportunity, however.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Um, Grappling is not a player option. It's what happens when one of your players gets his wisdom teeth and decides to play doped up on painkillers. The same goes for underwater combat. FoM stays.

Clearly I need to play in your games. I have a dedicated grappler in my group, and there hasn't been a session in months which hasn't involved either the grapple rules, encumbrance limits, or some equally trivial-yet-utterly-annoying-to-deal-with subsystem.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Clearly I need to play in your games. I have a dedicated grappler in my group, and there hasn't been a session in months which hasn't involved either the grapple rules, encumbrance limits, or some equally trivial-yet-utterly-annoying-to-deal-with subsystem.

I'm sorry.