Is a TPK incoming? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Nemesis_22

2013-03-09, 07:45 AM

Long time reader - but the same cannot be said of my ability to post. Anyway, here it is. I've been racking my brains thinking about the latest developments, and, well... I'm worried. So, I'm here to see what I've missed, with the help of you fine people, regarding the future of the Order - and the world that they are set in.

Y'see, I'm of the personal opinion that they are boned. Totally, totally done for, and they don't yet know it. Why? Well, I got a few reasons...

First, Durkon. Poor, poor Durkon. I wanted Malak to be eaten by a horde of hungry rats soaked in holy water after that horrible incident, but he did, I think, effectively neuter the OotS with his actions, because of a simple problem - healing.

The Order takes a whalloping. A lot. And for good reason - the foes they are fighting with Nale and co. are a lot stronger than they are. Tarquin and Malak could wipe the floor with the three that remain, as Malak demonstrated by effortlessly eliminating two of the members without breaking so much as a sweat, and gaining himself a powerful ally in the process. And worse, the party could now get the snot beaten out of them, and if by some slim chance they win - they'll be in bad shape.

Following rules for natural healing, they're going to have to rest, a lot, to get those lost hit points back. And they don't have a lot of time to do so. They are really, significantly short of it, and I highly doubt we're going to have long sequences where they are convalescing.

It gets worse the more I look into it. First, current problems - V is in bad shape, and there is no one who can heal him now. Belkar is combat ineffective now, and there is no one who can fix that. Killing Durkon achieves little next to nothing, as there is no one who can resurrect him - and that's a problem in of itself folks, all deaths with the death of Durkon have become perma-kills, as the good guys don't have any other clerics to take his place. The bad guys, sadly, have two, Malak and Redcloak, and either one right now could toast the party - Redcloak in particular, since he can just use Implosion to instakill any one of the party members who now have no warding magic to stave off such instant kills.

Short term, the three party members who remain cannot beat Tarquin, Nale, Malak and Durkon - Roy, Elan and Hayley would be handily defeated, by probably a couple of them, let alone four. With V and Belkar being no more than a hindrance at the moment rather than helpful, they'll either be forced out by Tarquin (who will either be overjoyed or enraged when he realises instead of an epic battle, it will be a curb stomping, leading to perhaps another battle) or Team Evil, who will turn up and make their presence felt quite handily, either fighting against each other or making a temporary alliance, which would be a worst case scenario for the Order. Either way, the Order right now is little more than a shambles, that have come from a series of big defeats followed by clawing back a little ground to what appears to be another much bigger defeat than usual.

Long term, things appear just as bad. Their forces are scattered, they have no organisation, and without their cleric, no means to communicate with each other as well. Against the highly organised forces arrayed against them (Xykon's hordes and the Empire of Blood), both of which have the advantage with larger forces and a line of supply, they are nothing more than a minor irritation who couldn't hope to win a long term victory, even if they could somehow be moved to an appropriate position.

I doubt they are going to win this chapter - if they do, it will be luck, but they have nowhere to retreat or run to. Unless Tarquin has a change of heart (which I thoroughly doubt, and would do them little good in any case) they are in very, very deep trouble. Before they were at a huge disadvantage, but now? I don't think we realise yet just 'how' important Durkon was to the party. Healing, troop movement, death spell protection - three VITALLY important things - have just been completely removed from the Order. What are they going to do without them? How can they possibly win? Unless there is a wish ring or item inside that vault, and maybe not even then - I highly doubt that they can.

But that's just me. Thoughts? I'm hoping a whole army come in to prove me wrong here, because I love reading this story!

The Pilgrim

2013-03-09, 07:49 AM

Looks like The Giant is doing it rite, then.

This is OOTS: The Empire Strikes Back. Not that it wasn't foreshadowed when Tarquin went all "I am your Father" on Elan.

Morty

2013-03-09, 07:52 AM

Nah, you're absolutely right. The Order will die an ignominous, anticlimatic death because the D&D rules and conventions say so.

Nemesis_22

2013-03-09, 07:57 AM

Nah, you're absolutely right. The Order will die an ignominous, anticlimatic death because the D&D rules and conventions say so.

I wouldn't say 'that' so much, but the comic has stuck to D&D rules and conventions so far, so it would be a bit of a left field move to suddenly make it so it 'doesn't' stick to them at all.

Macros

2013-03-09, 07:57 AM

Well, it looks bad, true. And a major victory against the forces of Evil in the next few days doesn't seem all that likely.

Still, I doubt this arc ends with the death of the Order, and the remaining books covering the conflict between Team Evil and the Linear Guild / Empire of Blood.

Right now, I'd say the best bet of the OotS is to end this arc pronto, fall back and lick their wounds. That means finding the Gate, and destroying it. Not an ideal solution, but there's no way they can hold it, and while it's not so bad if Tarquin get it (since, you know, he can't do anything with it, right now), they cannot risk Xykon and Redcloak snooping in and getting their long-coveted prize.

Once this is done, they can always go back to the Azurite, who have some helpful ressources. If they are REALLY lucky, they could manage to destroy Vampire!Durkon in the process, and have him raised there, but it doesn't seem that likely. More likely, they'll have to improvise.

hamishspence

2013-03-09, 07:59 AM

zimmerwald1915

2013-03-09, 08:06 AM

This is OOTS: The Empire Strikes Back. Not that it wasn't foreshadowed when Tarquin went all "I am your Father" on Elan.
Eh, they were in worse shape in the last book.

Nemesis_22

2013-03-09, 08:07 AM

Don't forget the Oracle's prediction to Elan:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

"Will this story have a happy ending?
"Yes, for you at least."

Elan getting soul-devoured by the Snarl would not be a happy ending.

I keep forgetting that part. Funny thing is, and I wonder about this - what, for Elan, is a happy ending? I get the feeling its a bit darker than it lets on. Is it a happy ending by -our- standards, or -his-? Or is it just he goes to his -death- with a happy smile on his face because he did something right before he died? Heck, they could fail entirely and end up with Elan having his memory wiped by some magick whatchamacallit so that while things are bad for everyone, -he- is still happy. Happy ending for you, indeed.

hamishspence

2013-03-09, 08:13 AM

The War & XPs commentary does say "This is still a comedy adventure, not a drama" and "Don't worry folks! It might get scary for a while, but it will all work out in the end!"

However, as you say, it's from the character's point of view, not necessarily the audience.

Diadem

2013-03-09, 08:35 AM

There's also the prophecy that V will be achieving "complete and total ultimate arcane power".

So V can't die because she hasn't fulfilled her prophecy yet, and Elan can't die because he'll have a happy end. A TPK won't be happening.

zimmerwald1915

2013-03-09, 08:39 AM

There's also the prophecy that V will be achieving "complete and total ultimate arcane power".
That prophecy's been fulfilled.

Dr. Gamera

2013-03-09, 08:59 AM

First, Durkon. Poor, poor Durkon.

One death sucks. But it takes six to spell T-P-K. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html)

Morty

2013-03-09, 09:26 AM

I wouldn't say 'that' so much, but the comic has stuck to D&D rules and conventions so far, so it would be a bit of a left field move to suddenly make it so it 'doesn't' stick to them at all.

Not really, no. Ever since the Dungeon of Dorukan, OotS has been a story, not a D&D campaign. And in stories, unlike in tabletop campaigns, the protagonist don't have to lose just because they lost their healbot. Unless, of course, Durkon neither dies nor stays a vampire, a possibility you haven't accounted for in your prediction for some reason. Or do you really, honestly believe that the story is about to end with an anticlimactic TPK just because the D&D rules say so?

Nemesis_22

2013-03-09, 09:37 AM

Not really, no. Ever since the Dungeon of Dorukan, OotS has been a story, not a D&D campaign. And in stories, unlike in tabletop campaigns, the protagonist don't have to lose just because they lost their healbot. Unless, of course, Durkon neither dies nor stays a vampire, a possibility you haven't accounted for in your prediction for some reason.

Vampirism is permanent unless there is a Divine intervention, Wish or Miracle spell lurking somewhere, or the character is killed and resurrected, which can't be done because of clerical lack at this point in the story. So, he's staying a vampire, or being killed, unless there is an plot point lurking about somewhere that I know not about (hence my hopeful inquiry). And Durkon was much more than a healbot, as I stated - he was how they communicated with the Azure guys, and how they protected against death spells.

I agree with it being a story, I really do. But the story has been done in a way as to work within the constraints of the D&D system. Simply abandoning it for convenience of making the heroes win when they've never, ever done that at any time in the story before for good guys or bad guys, makes zero sense.

Anyway, not looking for an argument here (you're coming across as hostile here, which kind of baffles me a little, but fair enough), but for a genuinely clever way for the heroes to pull a slick comeback move. Any ideas, anyone?

EDIT - Heck no I'm not hoping for a TPK, nor believe one will happen, it'd be daft as, yes, its a story, not a campaign. It seemed as good a title thread as any, but yeah, I just used it to express my current total lack of ideas for how they can get out of the situation they're in, that's all. As I see it currently - boned. But I'm hoping I'm wrong.

jedipilot24

2013-03-09, 09:40 AM

You make some good points Nemesis, but you forget one detail. Elan is a bard and he does know at least one healing spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html).

All is not yet lost for the Order.

Morquard

2013-03-09, 10:06 AM

For out of combat healing I suppose they're relying on wands at this point anyway, it's just not shown because showing Durkon poke people with a stick repeatedly is boring.
What you see is him casting heal spells when it's necessary to quickly regain HPs, because they're not sure if the next attack is 2 rounds or 2 days away.

Elan can use those wands just as well, so it's quite possible they're still not as bad on the healing front.

Also you remember that big door? The reason the rest of the order isn't there right now.
They might find something in there.

As for destroying the Gate being their best course of action:
The Order has no idea about the Plan.
The Order's defense in the trial was "If one Gate get gets destroyed it can be rebuilt, so it's better to do that than let it fall into enemy hands", not "Hey if 4 out of 5 are gone it's not a big deal".
The Order believes the Gates are what safeguards the planet against divine destruction. Either at the hands of the Snarl or the Gods who will be forced into action to remake the prison.

So while I do believe that this arc will end with a big KRRAAAAACKKAAKOOOOOM I'm not so sure it's deliberately set off by the Order, as much as another accident.

Cizak

2013-03-09, 10:11 AM

Diadem

2013-03-09, 10:16 AM

That prophecy's been fulfilled.
How? V didn't achieve ultimate power by soul splicing, as Xykon clearly demonstrated. More importantly, the prophecy says "saying the right 4 words to the right being at the wrong time". Not of that happened.

The resolution of V's prophecy will definitely involve the snarl in some way. I can see the OOTS interrupting the snarl controlling ritual at the last second, and V accidentally finishing it by saying the wrong words, thus gaining control over the snarl.

SaintRidley

2013-03-09, 10:33 AM

How? V didn't achieve ultimate power by soul splicing, as Xykon clearly demonstrated. More importantly, the prophecy says "saying the right 4 words to the right being at the wrong time". Not of that happened.

The resolution of V's prophecy will definitely involve the snarl in some way. I can see the OOTS interrupting the snarl controlling ritual at the last second, and V accidentally finishing it by saying the wrong words, thus gaining control over the snarl.

Yes, it did. I quote:

In this chapter, that prophecy is fulfilled--but not the way that readers expected.
I invented the idea of the Soul Splice as a means to give Vaarsuvius everything he/she ever wished for, but not have it be as useful as he/she assumed it would be. The Oracle pulled the same verbal trick on both V and the readers: replying positively to a phrase that connoted one thing, but only actually denoted a lesser thing. Once V accepted the splices, he/she did have complete and total ultimate arcane power--insofar as he/she contained all three possible Soul Splices (and thus had a complete set), could use all of their spells at the same time (accessing the sum total of their powers), and had more total spell levels available than any other spellcaster (giving him/her the ultimate selection of arcane powers).
[D]id events come to pass as the Oracle predicted? Yes. The being in question? Vaarsuvius him/herself. The four words? "I...I must succeed," spoken at the end of strip #634. Yes I know that two of the words are the same as a result of a stutter. The Oracle never specified all of the words would be part of the same complete sentence, so the number of words was essentially a red herring. As for the wrong reasons, Vaarsuvius chose to accept the fiends' deal in order to preserve his/her belief in the unrivaled might of arcane magic, a belief that had been shaken by his/her loss at Azure City and exasperated every day since, because V has built his/her entire self-image upon that belief. [...] The four words that V speaks, therefore, are critical in convincing him/herself that success is the most important consideration--that the ends justify the means. And more importantly, that it needs to be Vaarsuvius who succeeds, not someone else...hence the emphasis on the word I.

Cizak

2013-03-09, 10:33 AM

Rich confirmed in Don't Split the Party that the soul-splicing was the moment V was fulfilled. I'm not going to copy exactly what he wrote (because, you know, purchase material) but it comes down to that a) yes, he said "I... I must suceed", four words as the prophecy did not specify four different words and b) V got the "ultimate total" power in the sense that he got all the magic schools available, he just used it like an idiot.

Don't use words like "definitely" unless you're definitely sure. :smallwink:

Iranon

2013-03-09, 10:35 AM

V's wording assumes V will achieve ultimate arcane power, making it fair to interpret 'ultimate arcane power' as 'the highest level of arcane power V will ever hold' which is very likely to have been fulfilled.

If we measure power in "effective level", the soul splice will be hard to top.

Jay R

2013-03-09, 10:37 AM

No, there is no TPK coming. Durkon, at least, will be around for quite awhile. (Don't forget that Malack intends to give him his free will back.)

I keep forgetting that part. Funny thing is, and I wonder about this - what, for Elan, is a happy ending? I get the feeling its a bit darker than it lets on. Is it a happy ending by -our- standards, or -his-? Or is it just he goes to his -death- with a happy smile on his face because he did something right before he died? Heck, they could fail entirely and end up with Elan having his memory wiped by some magick whatchamacallit so that while things are bad for everyone, -he- is still happy. Happy ending for you, indeed.

He is an extremely genre-savvy bard. A happy ending for him will be a classic ending to a long, dangerous adventure tale. Maybe people die along the way, but the hero and his girlfriend come out at the end having defeated the menace. They mourn their lost friends, he sings a dirge in their honor.

Oh yes - he also gets a whistle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html).

NerdyKris

2013-03-09, 10:41 AM

Y'see, I'm of the personal opinion that they are boned. Totally, totally done for, and they don't yet know it. Why? Well, I got a few reasons...

What exactly do you mean by "Total Party Kill"? Are you seriously, honestly suggesting the possibility that the entire party is going to die and the strip is going to end or become "Ochul and Lien save the last gate"?

Think about that for a second. It's absurd. Yes, they are probably going to be in terrible shape, but I think we can all safely assume that they aren't going to all die before the end of the strip. That's just common sense due to this being, you know, a story, and not a real D&D session.

Tragak

2013-03-09, 10:44 AM

How? V didn't achieve ultimate power by soul splicing, as Xykon clearly demonstrated. More importantly, the prophecy says "saying the right 4 words to the right being at the wrong time". Not of that happened.

Ah, but V still achieved ultimate arcane power, even though it was ultimately (pun intended) other types of power that made the actual difference.

rgrekejin

2013-03-09, 10:50 AM

Onyavar

2013-03-09, 11:07 AM

For out of combat healing I suppose they're relying on wands at this point anyway, it's just not shown because showing Durkon poke people with a stick repeatedly is boring.

Don't think so. Since they never had shown a wand at all, fabricating such a wand into the story now would be bad storytelling.
But as has been pointed out, Elan knows Mass Cure Light Wounds, and Haley has lots of potions in her bags of holding. The rest of the order also brings potions, though not so many.
In respect to healing, the order DID rely on Durkon.
[Edit: Ninja'd.]

Now regarding the TPK, that's unlikely. I guess that the order will be nearly reunited by the end of the book/start of the next book: Roy, Haley, Elan and V. Durkon will be missing for a while, but eventually rejoin. Don't care about Belkar. If he lives, he will remain in the party as well.

ella ventic

2013-03-09, 11:10 AM

How? V didn't achieve ultimate power by soul splicing, as Xykon clearly demonstrated. More importantly, the prophecy says "saying the right 4 words to the right being at the wrong time". Not of that happened.

Rich's commentary in Don't Split the Party is very clear on this point. Just before V agrees to the Soul Splice, he brings up the Oracle's prophecy and says "In this chapter, that prophecy is fulfilled." Not much doubt about that!

He then goes on to explain that the four words were "I...I must succeed" and the "right being" to say them to was in fact V hirself; it was V's way of convincing hirself that making that deal was justified.

And a later commentary in the same book points out that not only did V no longer have "ultimate power" by the time of the Xykon fight (s/he had already lost one of the soul splices), but that it was not sheer power itself but the proper APPLICATION of power that was highlighted in that battle, as V did hir most effective work once the Soul Splices were gone and s/he started using reason again.

ETA: Ninja'd so hard it isn't even funny. :)

Morquard

2013-03-09, 12:34 PM

What evidence do you have for this, beyond "that's just the way high-level parties usually operate", an explanation Rich has been loathe to embrace before now. If they had wands, I'd expect them to have been shown before now, at least, like, once, just so if they do turn out to have a wand, a sizeable portion of the forum won't all yell "DEUS EX MACHINA!!!1!" at the top of their lungs.

Yes... you remember the cries of "DEUS EX MACHINA!!!" when Nale pulled out the wand of Enervation in #806 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html)?
The Giant then said (paraphrasing here) "I don't really have to foreshadow every item, or have them go "Oh look at my new wand here. And this new potion here." for every item they have. Characters in their mid-teens have access to a whole lot of magic items, so it's not a Deus Ex Machina when they actually end up having one of those"

factotum

2013-03-09, 12:56 PM

Is a TPK incoming? Simple answer: no. If the entire Order dies then there's no-one to rez them, no-one to fight Xykon, no-one to *finish the story*. Yes, if this were an actual D&D campaign there'd be a significant chance of TPK at this point, but it isn't, and thus somebody has to survive to get the word out and hopefully arrange for some resurrections!

Chantelune

2013-03-09, 01:14 PM

And Elan planned to get Cure Critical Wounds at his next level, which might come in handy. Don't know if he did get another level since then, though.

Regarding wands, them having a few wouldn't really surprise me. If they don't, they might get a few (especially healing and restoration) soon enough, if only to have a way to not being forced to rest after each battle.

Many people complained that the order never get to fight at full power, mostly because if they do, they would just wipe the floor with their foes save TE. Well, this should rebalance things a little.

And I doubt that there will be a TPK, too, for reasons already explained there.

SavageWombat

2013-03-09, 01:14 PM

Roy would be a great fool to take on the LG under these conditions. And as he is not a great fool, clearly he cannot choose the cup in front of him.

There is a possibility - considering the previous comment of Tarquin's disappointment in curb-stomping a power-reduced Order, he might be convinced to fight Roy mano-a-mano. Unfortunately, Roy doesn't know about Tarquin's desire to test him personally.

To my mind, the Order's only way out of here is the flying carpet - which belongs to Tarquin, and there's still the winds issue to discuss. I don't see any other transportation solutions, even with V rejoining the party.

ThePhantasm

2013-03-09, 01:19 PM

My prediction? Belkar gives his life fighting the enemy in order to give the rest of the Order a chance to escape.

Porthos

2013-03-09, 01:45 PM

Other people have addressed this, but I wanted to chime in my own thoughts on it....

How? V didn't achieve ultimate power by soul splicing, as Xykon clearly demonstrated. More importantly, the prophecy says "saying the right 4 words to the right being at the wrong time". Not of that happened.

The resolution of V's prophecy will definitely involve the snarl in some way. I can see the OOTS interrupting the snarl controlling ritual at the last second, and V accidentally finishing it by saying the wrong words, thus gaining control over the snarl.

The point of that arc, and perhaps one of the points of the entire comic, is having loads of power means absolutely jack if you don't know how to use it properly.

V became the most powerful arcane caster that will ever live. Unfortunately for him, he was so hopped up on The Evilz (and suffering from massive sleep trance deprivation) that he wasn't thinking clearly about HOW to use that power.

As for the 'to the right being', that being was V himself. He was giving himself the last bit of self-courage needed to go through with the deal. A pep talk to himself, as it were.

Now it is true that a lot of people (perhaps expecting Mighty V to shout "Mighty V is on the Way! Here I Come to Save The Day!!") were unsatisfied with how it all played out. But, well, that's why they call it defying expectations. :smalltongue:

lio45

2013-03-09, 01:53 PM

The thread title does you a disservice, because I actually agree with you on the basics:

EDIT - Heck no I'm not hoping for a TPK, nor believe one will happen, it'd be daft as, yes, its a story, not a campaign. It seemed as good a title thread as any, but yeah, I just used it to express my current total lack of ideas for how they can get out of the situation they're in, that's all. As I see it currently - boned. But I'm hoping I'm wrong.

Is a TPK incoming? No, of course not.

If this comic wasn't a story, but instead a tabletop campaign, then, at this exact moment in the campaign, do you think it's possible that the current situation could end in a TPK? Sure.

The PCs are in deep doodoo at the moment, and yes, it's really not clear how that ragtag band will ever manage to accomplish a task so out-of-their-league as defeating Xykon/Redcloak... but they will.

deworde

2013-03-09, 03:06 PM

I think it's important to remember that :vaarsuvius: is a near fully loaded wizard, since he has time to rest in the Plane of Semi-Elemental Ranch Dressing, and missed out on the Linear Guild fight.

Yes, he's only one wizard. But he's an incredibly powerful one. He'd have annihilated any of the Linear Guild except Zz'dtri, so he should at least be able to protect his friends. Of course, that relies on him getting his act together, but I doubt that the next 200 strips will be V moping in a dungeon.

deworde

2013-03-09, 03:18 PM

Roy would be a great fool to take on the LG under these conditions. And as he is not a great fool, clearly he cannot choose the cup in front of him.

Oh, 100% for the Princess Bride Quote

Kish

2013-03-09, 03:21 PM

For out of combat healing I suppose they're relying on wands at this point anyway, it's just not shown because showing Durkon poke people with a stick repeatedly is boring.
I wish people would stop interjecting assumptions based on internet D&D theoretical optimization into OotS.

VanaGalen

2013-03-09, 03:40 PM

I don't think TPK is possible, because the comic is called "Order of the Stick" and it would be pretty lame to rename it "Bunch of back-up heroes who are here because the original group wiped".

Now, looking at the story itself. I isn't as bad as it seems. I don't think Malack is a real threat to the Order. On many occasions he displayed strictly lawful character. He already honored Durkon's last wish and spared Belkar, so we can assume he won't be willing to fight the rest of the Order. Of course he might break that promise when stakes go too high or if he were personally threatened. Still, it's highly probable Malack will avoid the fight or maybe even help them escape. Also, Durkon at this point seems to be pretty harmless, he probably needs to "learn" to be efficient vampire.

Also, there is the IFCC. They have their own agenda, but they've said they need conflict and therefore, many different sides and parties in the game. So, even though they're evil, they might in fact help if the Order were facing approaching, inevitable TPK. Not because they are nice, just because it might suit their plans best at the moment.

Now for the evil teams - the fact that is two of them, not one, might work in the Order's favor. If Xykon&Redcloak were alone, they would go after the Order immediately. As it is, we have a good chance of Xykon engaging Tarquin before he even knows the Order is there.

I know it does look pretty grim at the moment, but it isn't hopeless. We don't know if all Girard's defenses are off, and they're at the moment the team closest to the Gate itself. Many things may happen yet :smallwink:

Also, I can't find that strip - did Xykon set out for the gate with Redcloak only, or MitD is also going with them?

The Vagabond

2013-03-09, 03:42 PM

I'll just throw this in on the whole 'Wand Problem-'
Perhaps everyone but Durkon is ignorant that wands even exsist, or have no idea how they were used? Just my thoughts.

Also, ohgod I hope not, though who knows? Hell, maybe Thor will come in.

Chantelune

2013-03-09, 03:53 PM

Also, I can't find that strip - did Xykon set out for the gate with Redcloak only, or MitD is also going with them?

The MitD was with them when they Gate to the Astral Plane, commenting how he liked it there, so I'd assume he'll be there as well when TE goes for the Gate. How he will act during the incoming battle (or lack of), though, I don't know. Can't see him helping the order, unless he somehow recognize V and think that she might help him find O-Chul, but even then, I doubt he would turn on Xykon just like that. If he ever face O-Chul and need to choose beetween his friend or TE, he might make that choice, but before that ? Don't know, but sounds unlikely.

VanaGalen

2013-03-09, 04:10 PM

The MitD was with them when they Gate to the Astral Plane, commenting how he liked it there, so I'd assume he'll be there as well when TE goes for the Gate. How he will act during the incoming battle (or lack of), though, I don't know. Can't see him helping the order, unless he somehow recognize V and think that she might help him find O-Chul, but even then, I doubt he would turn on Xykon just like that. If he ever face O-Chul and need to choose beetween his friend or TE, he might make that choice, but before that ? Don't know, but sounds unlikely.

Yes, it is unlikely, but not impossible I think. First, MitD went through some character development during his go games with O-Chul, questioning his relationship with TE. It seems he doesn't really like Xykon or Redcloak, but he simply doesn't have anybody else to hang out with. Secondly, MitD and OotS:
- He might recognize V as O-Chul's buddy. He already saved V from Xykon once.
- He already "likes" Roy.
- He met Haley and Belkar, and though he didn't love them then, he might be OK with them after his character development.

So, he already knows the alive part of the Order and questions his loyalty to Xykon. I think there is a chance (small, but still) that MitD will help the Order when they meet.

KillianHawkeye

2013-03-09, 04:58 PM

Yes, it is unlikely, but not impossible I think. First, MitD went through some character development during his go games with O-Chul, questioning his relationship with TE. It seems he doesn't really like Xykon or Redcloak, but he simply doesn't have anybody else to hang out with. Secondly, MitD and OotS:
- He might recognize V as O-Chul's buddy. He already saved V from Xykon once.
- He already "likes" Roy.
- He met Haley and Belkar, and though he didn't love them then, he might be OK with them after his character development.

So, he already knows the alive part of the Order and questions his loyalty to Xykon. I think there is a chance (small, but still) that MitD will help the Order when they meet.

Maybe MitD can cast healing spells?

Problem. Solved.

voiceofreason

2013-03-09, 05:08 PM

It's a "Comic Arc" -- it has to get worse before it gets better. Defeat at this stage won't be total -- there needs to still be some story to carry over -- but I foresee a Downer Ending to this chapter. It's almost impossible to have a Downer Ending movie these days -- preview audiences won't tolerate it. Thank goodness the same can't be said for comics!

rodneyAnonymous

2013-03-09, 05:15 PM

...as Malak demonstrated by effortlessly eliminating two of the members without breaking so much as a sweat...

I don't think it was effortless. He had a relatively easy time with Belkar, but Durkon nearly killed Malack.

The MunchKING

2013-03-09, 05:28 PM

Maybe MitD can cast healing spells?

Problem. Solved.

He doesn't have Cleric Levels, so it'd have to be some other way...

Porthos

2013-03-09, 05:35 PM

Also, ohgod I hope not, though who knows? Hell, maybe Thor will come in.

I don't think the Western Gods would really appreciate it if Thor muscled in on their turf.

Procyonpi

2013-03-09, 05:36 PM

No.
Really, what sort of question is that?

Minitroll

2013-03-09, 05:40 PM

First- Elan can now cover healing. He has Mass Light Wounds, so he probably has the smaller heals as well, Cure Serious, Cure Critical, things like that.

And there's one important factor I think's going to play a part. TARQUIN WANTS ELAN TO KILL HIM. I personally think that Nale's going to try and Tarquin's going to stop him. This division will cause for the Order to regroup and Elan to do some healing while Malack and Tarquin kick some Guild. Then, Team Evil pops up, and Team Mr. T (that's my name for Tarquin's group), the Guild, and the healed Order has a reason to fight them off together. Tarquin wants to have the gates to help his nation and have Elan's story even more awesome, Nale wants the power and so hates Xykon, and the Order's good guys.

There are TONS of ways out of this, and it's going to have to do with Malack, Tarquin, and Durkula.

zimmerwald1915

2013-03-09, 05:49 PM

Fish

2013-03-09, 11:19 PM

On Elan's happy ending:
The Plan actually succeeds in killing various gods. All of them except a little-known pantheon of gods named Banjo, Banjhulu...

On Xykon arriving soon: who's to say they haven't already? Roy, Haley and company are busily opening the big doors. Tarquin arrives to claim the prize and throws open the doors. Guess who is already camped inside?

The_Tentacle

2013-03-09, 11:30 PM

On a different thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275222), I just found this:

Finding all sorts of (possibly unintended) foreshadowing.

Belkar in the arena: "If you can't kill someone with a piece of wood, you should get out of the killing business."

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0741.html

:smalleek:

Also, a TPK will not happen. No way. You never kill what the story is named after unless they die early and the rest of the story is about someone else doing something that has to do with them (Citizen Kane, anyone?).

Jay R

2013-03-09, 11:48 PM

And there's one important factor I think's going to play a part. TARQUIN WANTS ELAN TO KILL HIM.

Baron Tyrinar believed Tarquin wanted to help him rule.
The Empress believes Tarquin wants to be her Warlord.
The ambassador believed that Tarquin would send troops to help her.
Nale believes that Tarquin is working for him.

All of them depended on what Tarquin said.

And now you believe that Tarquin wants Elan to kill him, because that's what Tarquin said when it was necessary to confuse Elan.

What's it going to take to convince people not to trust this guy? Do you need, like, 200-foot-tall flaming letters or something?

nonamearisto

2013-03-09, 11:59 PM

I doubt a TPK is coming. If it was, either someone would have to bring them all/enough of them back, or some other group would have to continue on the adventure, with the levels, knowledge, equipment and motives to pull it off.

runeghost

2013-03-10, 12:03 AM

What exactly do you mean by "Total Party Kill"? Are you seriously, honestly suggesting the possibility that the entire party is going to die and the strip is going to end or become "Ochul and Lien save the last gate"?

Think about that for a second. It's absurd. Yes, they are probably going to be in terrible shape, but I think we can all safely assume that they aren't going to all die before the end of the strip. That's just common sense due to this being, you know, a story, and not a real D&D session.

I don't know... I could see it going as far as the whole OotS going down during a climactic battle at the gate, and then the core members being rezzed by Azurites amid the rubble days (or even weeks) later, and wonder what exactly happened.

I don't think that's the most likely outcome, but I could see it happening.

LasVegasLawyer

2013-03-10, 12:05 AM

Don't forget the Oracle's prediction to Elan:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

"Will this story have a happy ending?
"Yes, for you at least."

Elan getting soul-devoured by the Snarl would not be a happy ending.

You're missing something - Elan is a bard. Excellent exposition, well-executed choreography, subtle incorporation of off-screen action into dialogue to advance the story - these are things that make Elan happy. If it's a good story, with a bard-tastic climax, regardless of the ending, it will end happily for Elan.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-03-10, 12:05 AM

What's it going to take to convince people not to trust this guy? Do you need, like, 200-foot-tall flaming letters or something?

Kill him? He wants Elan to fight him. "If I win, I get to be a king. I lose, I get to be a legend." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) He wouldn't mind losing, but he thinks there is a chance he will win.

Tarquin lies by omission and by misleading truth. I'm not sure he's ever said anything outright false.

I think you are correct that he is not trustworthy :) But not because he says things that aren't true.

Minitroll

2013-03-10, 12:08 AM

And now you believe that Tarquin wants Elan to kill him, because that's what Tarquin said when it was necessary to confuse Elan.

It's my personal belief that Tarquin wasn't lying there. He has theatrics, and we with the foreshadowing of the 'I am your father' we knew he and Elan would become nemesis. That's why he made that quote. Therefore, if Elan dies, he's not going to have it be a curb stomp with Durkula, Malack, Nale, Sabine, Kilkil, and him smashing him. Tarquin is an evil Elan, much more then Nale: this is the one time I think Tarquin told the truth.

Thrillhouse

2013-03-10, 12:21 AM

The_Tentacle

2013-03-10, 12:55 AM

Do the Azurites even have access to teleports? The Resistance (or is the Azure City Underground?) didn't have access to Dispel Magic, so why would the ones who escaped be any different (even if it is a different spell, I'm pretty sure teleport is higher level than dispel). Unless there's something I'm missing?

Elan will take down Tarquin. Or if not, he will at least fight him.

zimmerwald1915

2013-03-10, 01:01 AM

Not sure if it's already been mentioned, but the Giant may already have foreshadowed their deliverance. Just a few comics ago, Hinjo found out that Xykon got his phylactery back. One scrying of the order and teleport spell later, and reinforcements arrive to help our heroes, preferably at the last possible moment.
I was going to reply with some snark along the lines of "What scrying? What teleport?"1 Then I remembered this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html). Of course, these hypothetical noble-employed wizards will only matter if Hinjo's managed to bring the nobles to heel after Kubota's fall, and we've seen that mid-level lackeys will not necessarily be of much help against opponents like Tarquin and Malack, let alone Xykon and Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0825.html)...

1Y'know, like the ninja above me did, only meaner.

factotum

2013-03-10, 02:39 AM

Do the Azurites even have access to teleports?

The wizard who teleported the Order to Cliffport was an Azurite. He died bringing them back, true, but it beggars belief to assume that they had no other high-level wizards available.

The Resistance is a different matter--they were made up of those people who failed to escape the city before it fell. Any decently high-level wizard, ESPECIALLY one who knew Teleport, would not have been in that situation.

sam79

2013-03-10, 02:50 AM

How the Order Can Escape a TPK here:

Plan A) Orchestrate a fight between Team Evil and the Linear Guild, hoping to ambush and overcome the suvivors, secure the Gate, and get Vampire Durkon back. Oh, how can they do that?...No idea.

Plan B) Run away. Possibly after saboutaging the Gate (though given that Team Evil can teleport and the Order can't, that may not be a good strategy.)

I think the best (short-term) result the Order can get here is "only lose one more PC".

As for the long-term; well, Elan's prophesy rules out certain situations, in my view. Xykon cannot enslave the world and turn it into his own personal theme park. Malack cannot turn the world into a giant abattoir. Haley can't be (permanently) killed, nor can Elan's mum, nor can Elan himself. Roy will probably survive; he's done the whole "dying for a good cause" thing already.

dps

2013-03-10, 02:53 AM

I keep forgetting that part. Funny thing is, and I wonder about this - what, for Elan, is a happy ending?

One in which he gets to run around invisible all the time. :smallbiggrin:

Domino Quartz

2013-03-10, 04:07 AM

He doesn't have Cleric Levels, so it'd have to be some other way...

That sort of thing didn't stop him from casting some sort of super-teleport on O-Chul and Vaarsuvius.

zimmerwald1915

2013-03-10, 04:15 AM

That sort of thing didn't stop him from casting some sort of super-teleport on O-Chul and Vaarsuvius.
He didn't know he could do that, and it took a deep and profound crisis to prompt him to dig deep enough for him to discover that he could. Afterwords, he was unable to repeat the feat. Even if MitD can heal, raise the dead, restore ability damage, etc., and nothing suggests he can, he is far from reliable enough to fulfill the Order's needs.

lio45

2013-03-10, 09:43 AM

And there's one important factor I think's going to play a part. TARQUIN WANTS ELAN TO KILL HIM.

It's my personal belief that Tarquin wasn't lying there. He has theatrics, and we with the foreshadowing of the 'I am your father' we knew he and Elan would become nemesis. That's why he made that quote.

You're wrong there... Tarquin doesn't "want" to get killed by anyone, but if he has to be killed someday (pretty much bound to happen, and he's realistic enough to be aware of it), then he'd rather have it by Elan, for story reasons. I also believe he was telling the truth there, but there's a HUGE difference between "I want you to kill me" and "Oh, now I see it. The day someone will finally manage to kill me, it will be you, and that's way more acceptable to me than being killed by a random peasant, so... nice!"

In other words, he's not about to just let Elan kill him. Ever.

Rig

2013-03-10, 01:32 PM

I see things getting... bat****. I don't see a tpk, but Tarquin and co. must by this stage plan everything in advance. If splitting enemy parties isn't standard procedure i'll eat my own hat, and i wonder if they'll be able to stop it even if they realize it. It might not go all the way, and if it does it'll be definitively non-standard. If Tarquin does realize the power discrepancy between him and Elan (if he doesn't, might be putting it on for Nale), and he'll certainly know for Xykon, i expect them to go full muchkin power leveling somewhere he has designed especially for the purpose.

However, this is not the question. The question is who Tarquin has guarding their mother and what the relation between them is. I would be surprised if Xykon doesn't think of exploiting it, and i have a suspicion he likes a *just enough of a* challenge as much as Tarquin. What better way to have him fight at his best- depends on when, how and whether he recognizes he will not be a straightforward vengeful enemy. Better yet, whats the plan for Elan's mum herself, given Tarquin likely doesn't settle.

Chantelune

2013-03-10, 02:34 PM

However, this is not the question. The question is who Tarquin has guarding their mother and what the relation between them is. I would be surprised if Xykon doesn't think of exploiting it, and i have a suspicion he likes a *just enough of a* challenge as much as Tarquin. What better way to have him fight at his best- depends on when, how and whether he recognizes he will not be a straightforward vengeful enemy. Better yet, whats the plan for Elan's mum herself, given Tarquin likely doesn't settle.

The hell ? :smallconfused: What makes you think Xykon will care at all about Tarquin and, even if he did for some reason, why would he even bother to consider having a care about Elan's mother ?

So far, Xykon showed mostly that he don't care about a challenge, he has a goal, he'll get to it while killing everyone's getting in his way in a straightforward manner. Why would he bother seeking information about some woman that Tarquin divorced long ago, then go get her in the unlikely hope that Tarquin would still give a damn about what happens to her in hope that this might give him the edge when he can just blast him away with some meteor swarm, energy drain and whatever other spell he has in check ? The only one who would give a damn here would be Elan and Xykon showed enough that he don't consider the OOTS to be worth seeing as more than just a small annoyance.

Xykon don't want his ennemies to fight at their best. He don't care. He just want a Gate to do his ritual. The rest is at best a nice distraction in-between.

Diadem

2013-03-10, 04:35 PM

Oh wow, I didn't know Rich had been so explicit about V's prophecy. I didn't read that particular book, alas.

Thanks for setting me straight, everybody.

So the 'right being' to say the words to was V herself? Wow, that's actually pretty awesome.

Rig

2013-03-10, 04:36 PM

That would be underestimating Tarquin. They're not quite at the blast through without a care power level, and she looks like a very good way to make a point. I may have seen something about Tarquin professing his love for their mother, and by the looks of things he treated her better then the usual lie or force his way in. As for why she would be guarded, irrespective of how he feels about her one of his sons is with her. It's that or she can take care of herself, though i say both just to be safe (depending on the quality of lackey available).

Xykon is very much the **** with you if you are actually annoying type, and Tarquin will be nothing but, one way or another.

Minitroll

2013-03-10, 04:47 PM

I also believe he was telling the truth there, but there's a HUGE difference between "I want you to kill me" and "Oh, now I see it. The day someone will finally manage to kill me, it will be you, and that's way more acceptable to me than being killed by a random peasant, so... nice!"

Part of his plan though is the epicness of being the villian in history, so he has to defeat someone, and that someone needs to be Elan, because father/ son shenanigans. He WANTS to fight Elan when they're equally powerful so that he'll be more legendary. He wins, he rules the world and he's just killed his own son, so he's even cooler. He loses, he stays a legend, but ONLY if it's Elan. Tarquin has his plan, and it needs Elan.

VanaGalen

2013-03-10, 05:15 PM

Part of his plan though is the epicness of being the villian in history, so he has to defeat someone, and that someone needs to be Elan, because father/ son shenanigans. He WANTS to fight Elan when they're equally powerful so that he'll be more legendary. He wins, he rules the world and he's just killed his own son, so he's even cooler. He loses, he stays a legend, but ONLY if it's Elan. Tarquin has his plan, and it needs Elan.

Exactly, but at the same time he can't allow Elan to kill him now. Dying in the middle of the desert while there is nobody to witness it wouldn't suit his plans at all. I think keeping Elan alive is now in Tarquin's best interest. Elan could go now to finish his quest and save the world, gain a few levels so he has better chance against Tarquin. Then they could meet in some kind of awesome, climactic duel with lots of spectators so Tarquin gets his everlasting fame. I'm not sure how Tarquin feels about the rest of the Order, but he definitely wants Elan to live. I think neither Tarquin nor Malack want to actually kill the Order at the moment.

The Pilgrim

2013-03-10, 08:11 PM

How? V didn't achieve ultimate power by soul splicing, as Xykon clearly demonstrated.

In addition to what SaintRidley said: Also remember that V no longer had "ultimate power" when she fought Xykon - she had already blown one splice, perhaps the most powerful of them.

Sr.medusa

2013-03-10, 08:33 PM

As for the long-term; well, Elan's prophesy rules out certain situations, in my view. Xykon cannot enslave the world and turn it into his own personal theme park. Malack cannot turn the world into a giant abattoir. Haley can't be (permanently) killed, nor can Elan's mum, nor can Elan himself. Roy will probably survive; he's done the whole "dying for a good cause" thing already.

Well, we know for sure that exists an afterlife in OOtsverse, so the Elan's happy ending might be in the CG afterlife with Haley perfectly happy and the world still screwed. For me it's no guarantee of nothing.

On the other side, no way tis coming a TPK now!

Rakoa

2013-03-10, 09:54 PM

I'm still crossing my fingers for a TPK in which the story then follows the joined forces of Qarr, O'Chul, Unnamed Cleric of Loki, freshly ressurected Wizard Guy and Leeky Windstaff on their quest to stop Xykon. I brought up this idea in one of the discussion threads and still think it would make for the best story ever...

sam79

2013-03-11, 02:37 AM

Well, we know for sure that exists an afterlife in OOtsverse, so the Elan's happy ending might be in the CG afterlife with Haley perfectly happy and the world still screwed. For me it's no guarantee of nothing.

On the other side, no way tis coming a TPK now!

You're right that the possibility of a happy afterlife means that Elan could be happy even if the world goes to pot. But I don't think that Elan would consider the world falling into Xykon's hands to be a happy ending, even if he himself was happy in the afterlife. Not to mention the author's commentary on this passage, which seems to rule out the darkest ending scenarios.

I agree on your second point.

pendell

2013-03-11, 08:01 AM

The Giant has already declared specifically that this story has a happy ending, although the same cannot be said for all characters in the OOTS. So no TPK.

I think it IS conceivable that the world as it exists may be heavily modified or even re-made, but if it is, I strongly doubt it will mean the extermination of all life. We may not know how this story ends until we know more about just what lies within the rift ...

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Jay R

2013-03-11, 10:04 AM

Gift Jeraff

2013-03-11, 10:11 AM

I still don't get how people can think Elan will somehow find a way to accept millions dying/suffering/getting unmade. The guy can't bring himself to executing tied up bad guys, including one in which he had no familial bias towards and had every reason to personally hate, yet he's OK with worldwide execution of innocents?

Tomada

2013-03-11, 05:06 PM

The OOTS doesn't need to fight today.

They have time.

Even if Xykon was ALREADY inside the room where the gate is, because it takes a few weeks to cast the rituals:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html

No hurry, really.

Redgoblin

2013-03-11, 07:44 PM

First off, I agree with the main sentiment of the board. While the situation is really bad (like 1 in a million chance they'll make it out) a TPK is not conducive to the narrative. As for Elan's happy ending, I fail to see why he needs to be alive for that to happen. Sure he wouldn't be happy if millions of people were unmade, but I think he'd enjoy going to the Chaotic good afterlife with Haley (were they can be together, forever).

wingnutx

2013-03-11, 10:19 PM

it's not so bad if Tarquin get it (since, you know, he can't do anything with it, right now

If Tarquin gets it, then Malak and Nergal get it.

nonamearisto

2013-03-11, 10:33 PM

Instead of TPK, it seems like a loss of two members (Durkon and Belkar) is in the works, possibly setting them up for a temporary replacement by... well, a lot of potential candidates: Celia, Gannji, Enor, O-Chul, Lien (the other paladin in the north), Hinjo, and probably quite a few others that I missed. Celia has already been something of a seventh member before, and the paladins have already helped in their own way several times. Hinjo may be too busy to help under normal circumstances, but if there's only one gate left, he might help. The lizardfolk and the half-dragon hate Tarquin, but they know nothing of the gates, and might have been written out of the story for good.

WindStruck

2013-03-11, 11:19 PM

Oh that would be cool! Hinjo joins the party and has an epic rematch with Red Cloak! :smalltongue:

factotum

2013-03-12, 02:55 AM

Oh that would be cool! Hinjo joins the party and has an epic rematch with Red Cloak! :smalltongue:

Any fight between Hinjo and Redcloak would end about as quickly as the first one did, given the level disparity between them. In any case, Hinjo has his people to lead and his duty to perform, he isn't going to join the Order just because they've lost their healer.

Minitroll

2013-03-12, 09:26 AM

temporary replacement by... Gannji, Enor
I actually think that MIGHT work. I feel like there is more in store, and if Belkar drops, two bounty hunters could pick up the slack. But for Durkon, it'd have to be a paladin.

Jay R

2013-03-12, 10:14 AM

Durkon's not gone; he's just a vampire. As soon as he gets his free will back, he will still consider it his duty to work with Roy.

Mishri

2013-03-12, 10:37 AM

I don't see a Happy Ending being anything other than everything works out for Elan. He doesn't die, he wins, he gets the girl and defeats evil. We still have another gate and book to go for that to happen at the end though, so no point in speculating now on it. It isn't a Happy Ending because well atleast I have this... it's only a Happy Ending if everything works out.

I believe Durkon is going to be a vampire from now on, and he will be going back to the dwarven homelands, being a vampire, and it wont be good, maybe not in the books, but in the future, maybe 100+ years. Will the order accept a vampire Durkon? Difficult to say for certain, I'd lean towards no. Being turned into a vampire even with his free will back, he will have been changed to his core. Yes, he'll no longer be a near mindless slave craving blood, he'll now have a mind still craving blood.

Also, Roy doesn't get a Happy Ending, so he'll likely either never kill xykon or he will die permanently.

Belkar will be dead soon enough, V. will be taken control of at a precise moment to interfere with red cloaks' gate control, so V's body might be responsible for the deaths of Belkar and/or Roy, and V wont have a Happy Ending either having a hand in Roy's death, and if her/his mate and offspring are still afraid. red cloak I think is the most likely to kill Xykon, also giving Roy the not a happy ending.

And ofcourse, No TPK, escape will be their goal soon/now.

Kish

2013-03-12, 10:50 AM

Also, Roy doesn't get a Happy Ending, so he'll likely either never kill xykon or he will die permanently.

Huh? No one said Roy wouldn't get a happy ending.

(In the comic. A mystifying number of people on this board parsed "Yes--for you, at least" as "for you only and horribly for everyone else.")

Mishri

2013-03-12, 11:06 AM

For some of you at least is what should be said in that case. This is the oracle who seems to delight in vague messages, it would seem he'd prefer that kind of answer if it were true. I'm sure you know better than me though, I'm new to the boards.

rgrekejin

2013-03-12, 11:11 AM

Is a TPK incoming?

Very possibly.

It's totally within the realm of possibility that Redcloak and Xykon will wipe out Nale's entire party. :smallbiggrin:

Kish

2013-03-12, 11:27 AM

For some of you at least is what should be said in that case.
If the Oracle felt like volunteering more information than he had to.

For example, the Oracle who replied to Belkar's question with, "Yes, you will kill me" would say, "For some of you," if there is more than one happy ending to be had in the Order of the Stick. And the Oracle who replied to Belkar's question with, "Yes, you will kill me by stabbing me with your daggers the next time you come to the Sunken Valley" would give a list of names of Order members who will have a happy ending. But the Oracle who is in the comic, who gave Belkar the answer, "Yes. Next!" would answer, "Yes--for you, at least," which is equally true if Elan is the only entity in the world who has a happy ending, or if every member of the Order has a happy ending.

Mishri

2013-03-12, 12:00 PM

Depends on your theory. According to the oracle he caused the deaths of miko, her horse, and roy, V is probably upcoming, and himself... although he did say he didn't buy any of those theories and so it really was only himself he meant. Hard to say. But it seems like his messages are seemingly vague or cryptic yet accurate. I really don't know, I guess we'll find out.

Also the question was does the Story have a happy ending. So you could be right in that for you means only that for others in the story it wont be. which could include Xykon, red cloak, Hinjo etc. So it's possible we couldn't read anything into that answer.

However, I believe it was more ominous foretelling of what will happen to the party with oblivious Elan taking it for what it's worth that, that it will be happy... alternatively, would Elan be happy if Roy and others weren't? So I guess yes... Roy and Haley will be alive at the end. I don't think his happiness would depend on the others though.

Also, I've been mistaken about the Oracle's meanings before, when it comes to Belkar's death, an In Comic year I thought meant within a year, instead of before the new year begins.

Kish

2013-03-12, 12:21 PM

What the additional words the Oracle could have put in Belkar's reply are, is not the point. The point is that he chose to answer the question with minimal information.

There are unambiguous ways the Oracle could have communicated an "only for you, Elan" if that was what he meant to communicate. "Yes, for you." "Yes, for you, at most." "For you, at least" is as positive as it could get, short of the Oracle saying, "Yes, audience, this is your personal assurance from the author that nothing bad will ever happen in this comic, you may now hold a funeral for all drama that was in the comic last strip." I am mystified that so many people immediately spin such a positive answer into something ominous.

ThePhantasm

2013-03-12, 12:29 PM

I expect Roy, Elan, and Haley to all get happy endings. V, Durkon, and Belkar I'm not so sure about.

Fish

2013-03-12, 01:04 PM

pendell

2013-03-12, 01:10 PM

Given Elan's idea of a happy ending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html), it is almost certain that a "happy" ending for Elan will mean a nightmarish existence for Roy :smallamused: . Though Roy will probably live through it, he probably will wish he hadn't .

ETA: further evidence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html) . A "happy ending" for Elan means that he and Roy become real family and they live together with happiness and puppies and ... FOR EVER AND EVER AND EVER.

...

Shortly thereafter Roy joins the Sapphire Guard so that seppuku becomes a viable option for a lawful good type.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

dps

2013-03-12, 01:24 PM

The wizard who teleported the Order to Cliffport was an Azurite. He died bringing them back, true, but it beggars belief to assume that they had no other high-level wizards available.

The royal family didn't have any other wizards who could cast teleport. Hinjo explicitly said that some of the nobles who fled the city before the battle probably employed wizards who could cast it, but he wasn't sure.

factotum

2013-03-12, 05:40 PM

The royal family didn't have any other wizards who could cast teleport. Hinjo explicitly said that some of the nobles who fled the city before the battle probably employed wizards who could cast it, but he wasn't sure.

Hinjo didn't even know about the existence of the wizard we knew can teleport, so his assessment of wizardly ability in Azure City is maybe not all that reliable! :smallsmile:

Clericzilla

2013-03-12, 08:35 PM

Don't forget the Oracle's prediction to Elan:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

"Will this story have a happy ending?
"Yes, for you at least."

Elan getting soul-devoured by the Snarl would not be a happy ending.

Well technically it could be a happy ending compared to what everyone else gets... Maybe the ones not eaten by the snarl has a fate worse than death waiting for them and the Oracle would say something like "well from the others point of view Elan got the happy ending, I didn't necessarily mean that Elan would find it to be happy".

lio45

2013-03-12, 08:51 PM

"Does this story have a happy ending?" should make anybody ask the obvious: for whom?

An answer "yes" is ambiguous: yes, it does, for someone, possibly including your enemies, possibly including people you've never heard of. Someone will be happy.

So the answer we (Elan) got clarifies: yes, for you.

Exactly...

If you really want to read more into the Oracle's answer to Elan, then yes, one guaranteed between-liner that you can read there is that the story will not have a happy ending for Xykon. Another one is that Haley will have survived. I'd even go as far as saying that it means Roy will survive -- knowing that Durkon doesn't make it, if the party's only other nice guy also dies, it's getting a bit borderline for a happy ending. Elan + Elan's gf would basically be the only two survivors, that's a pretty major blemish on that Bard's Happy Ending.

ThePhantasm

2013-03-12, 09:03 PM

Exactly...

If you really want to read more into the Oracle's answer to Elan, then yes, one guaranteed between-liner that you can read there is that the story will not have a happy ending for Xykon. Another one is that Haley will have survived. I'd even go as far as saying that it means Roy will survive -- knowing that Durkon doesn't make it, if the party's only other nice guy also dies, it's getting a bit borderline for a happy ending. Elan + Elan's gf would basically be the only two survivors, that's a pretty major blemish on that Bard's Happy Ending.

Plus, Roy is like a big brother figure to Elan. Elan sees their relationship as very very close.

lio45

2013-03-12, 09:33 PM

Plus, Roy is like a big brother figure to Elan. Elan sees their relationship as very very close.

Totally agree (I actually almost added that point to my post when I was typing it)... plus the fact that Roy's the story's main hero -- hard to imagine the story ending with Xykon defeated but Roy gone. Roy has devoted most of his adult life to stopping Xykon, it's a safe bet the story will end with "his" victory. (Shared, obviously, by the other surviving PCs.)

Bulldog Psion

2013-03-12, 10:54 PM

I would kind of be interested to see a TPK at this point just to see how it ended up shaking out. :smallamused: I don't want to see the comic end or the Order permanently dead, but I do think it would open up some very intriguing possibilities if they were wiped out temporarily.

And it could easily happen now that they're scattered and missing their healer. Yes, Elan can heal, but it's a drop in the bucket next to what Durkon was able to provide.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-03-12, 11:10 PM

"Is a TPK incoming?"

Probably not. They don't respawn or anything. That'd probably be the end of the Order of the Stick.

Unless you mean...

It's totally within the realm of possibility that Redcloak and Xykon will wipe out Nale's entire party. :smallbiggrin:

...which I agree is possible.

Forikroder

2013-03-12, 11:25 PM

Nah, you're absolutely right. The Order will die an ignominous, anticlimatic death because the D&D rules and conventions say so.

doesnt have anything to do with Dand D rules, the order is at half stength (missing its best half) while the LG has already shown there stronger then them AND have an extra cleric as back up

and even if they somehow pull THAT off Team Evil pops in

allenw

2013-03-12, 11:42 PM

doesnt have anything to do with Dand D rules, the order is at half stength (missing its best half) while the LG has already shown there stronger then them AND have an extra cleric as back up

and even if they somehow pull THAT off Team Evil pops in

Since Rich is very unlikely to kill off the entire OotS at this time, the simplest solution is for them to survive *because* Team Evil pops in and fights (or at least distracts) the LG.

Though I expect the OotS will also survive by going into the Rift.

nonamearisto

2013-03-13, 01:20 AM

Well, they can do what Elan said they do: have mixed victories and run away. They can wreck/enter the gate, I suppose. If my memory serves, the last gate is near the North Pole. :smalleek:

stsasser

2013-03-13, 01:47 AM

If the entire Order became free-will vampires/evil?

I can see some tactical advantages. It would certainly mess with Team Evil and LG's heads.

Niknokitueu

2013-03-13, 05:01 AM

A TPK? No. Probably.

People may draw corollaries with a normal AD&D campaign (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OffTheRails), but remember this is a story. Just set in an AD&D world where AD&D game effects work.

We have had Deus Ex Machinae (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeusExMachina) before (specifically, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html)). What's stopping Elan from finding a ring of wishes and 'wasting' them whilst accidently saving the party. Or what's stopping Odin noticing a distinct lessening of worship coming from the southern continent (ie his only worshipper there dying) and poking in a Divine Intervention? That is two D.E.M.'s that occured to me already, and no doubt Rich could do an even bigger ass-pull (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AssPull) and get away with it (IMO he is just that good).

As much as I am not enjoying the VladDurkon arc that is unfolding (a bit extreme for character development (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterDevelopment) IMO), I am eager to find out just how Rich is going to square this particular circle. I just hope that the OotS don't have much further to go before they reach the nadir normally required in such epic storylines (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheEpic).

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

pendell

2013-03-13, 05:46 AM

If the entire Order became free-will vampires/evil?

I can see some tactical advantages. It would certainly mess with Team Evil and LG's heads.

It also gives some severe tactical disadvantages as well. There's a good chance Redcloak can end a battle in one round with command undead or rebuke undead. i wouldn't be surprised if that artifact cloak he's wearing doesn't pack some hefty bonuses. It may not enable him to control an epic-level lich but I suspect it'll put a severe crimp in undead of the level of our PCs.

From a game mechanics aspect, I should think playing a vampire would severely cripple a PC thanks to the LA +8. Granted, you get a whole set of nifty abilities, but they're a one-time gift. It's going to be hard to find challenges which will give XP, which means the vampire won't level the way the living will. Which means that over time a party of living characters will become more powerful and be of higher level than a party of vampire characters.

So it's in the players best interest to be staked and resurrected even IF tactical considerations are the only concern.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Zweisteine

2013-03-13, 05:58 AM

I have no idea if anyone's said this yet, so I'll say it anyway.
For the story to end happiy for Elan, either most of the order has to be alive or he has to die happy.

OPM

2013-03-13, 03:11 PM

They have an out that I can see, but only one.

Activate the self-destruct, then run for the next gate. They'll rendezvous with the Paladins and team up with anyone they can (Roy's sister? Dwarves?) and head into the final showdown.

Belkar dies at this gate, saving the party.

factotum

2013-03-13, 05:07 PM

Er: :smallconfused:

What self-destruct? The only Gate we've seen that was actually fitted with a self-destruct was Dorukan's. Lirian's was destroyed by fire, and Soon's by Miko's sword strike.

Math_Mage

2013-03-13, 05:24 PM

Not only do we have the Oracle's prophecy, but we also know that Rich's writing philosophy orients around the protagonists (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14813005&postcount=89) to a significant extent. He's not going to kill off the focus of his story, especially not when there's so much story left to be told.

So much for TPK. What about plot impact? I think it was pendell who pointed out that they don't have to have a major impact--they just have to make a little push at the moment when things are balanced between the several other sides after the Gate. This is not that moment. Girard's Gate is due for an explosion soon, and then we're off to dwarven lands to set up that moment at Kraagor's Gate.

ZerglingOne

2013-03-13, 05:39 PM

In "On the Order of PCs" the head cleric of the dwarven homelands notes that Durkon is so lawful, he'd never go against a permanent mission away from home.

This same lawfulness has not changed via his undeadification. Regardless of his now evil alignment, he will almost undoubtedly still be loyal to his friends. I'm nearly positive we haven't seen the last of our Durkon. He's still a "good guy," he's just under the mental control of Malack at the moment, and must feast upon life energy.

I think the most obvious indication of this is that Malack, despite being unquestionably evil, is loyal to his friends. Hence he left even Belkar alive, whom Durkon didn't even acknowledge as a friend as a dying request.

Don't count Durkon out as the Order's cleric yet. Although it's going to be some time before he's back as an anti-hero.

VanaGalen

2013-03-13, 06:20 PM

Don't count Durkon out as the Order's cleric yet. Although it's going to be some time before he's back as an anti-hero.

Yup, I think it would be pretty neat if Durkon's oracle prophecy came true by him rushing with the Order to Serini's gate as their vampire cleric.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more probable it looks. After all, Durkon has to stay in the game and he has to continue as vampire for some time. He also needs to travel more or less in the same direction as the rest of main characters. I can't really see him as part of any of the evil teams, going alone is not an option either. So what else could he do, he has to rejoin the Order.

stsasser

2013-03-13, 06:29 PM

It also gives some severe tactical disadvantages as well. There's a good chance Redcloak can end a battle in one round with command undead or rebuke undead. i wouldn't be surprised if that artifact cloak he's wearing doesn't pack some hefty bonuses. It may not enable him to control an epic-level lich but I suspect it'll put a severe crimp in undead of the level of our PCs.

From a game mechanics aspect, I should think playing a vampire would severely cripple a PC thanks to the LA +8. Granted, you get a whole set of nifty abilities, but they're a one-time gift. It's going to be hard to find challenges which will give XP, which means the vampire won't level the way the living will. Which means that over time a party of living characters will become more powerful and be of higher level than a party of vampire characters.

So it's in the players best interest to be staked and resurrected even IF tactical considerations are the only concern.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I see your points.

OPM

2013-03-14, 04:11 AM

Er: :smallconfused:

What self-destruct? The only Gate we've seen that was actually fitted with a self-destruct was Dorukan's. Lirian's was destroyed by fire, and Soon's by Miko's sword strike.

As paranoid as Girard was, you don't see him putting in some kind of self-destruct sequence? I can certainly imagine a last resort like that, given that he was full of mistrust and believed Soon would be after his gate.

I mean, if you were to make a spell-trigger that blows everything up and you were him, what would you trigger on? Me, I think I would set a spell trigger to go off if all of my family was already dead and some of Soon's paladins were in range. One of those things has already happened and given the Order's dire straits, the paladins might very well be on their way over. They've been keeping in regular contact, after all.

nonamearisto

2013-03-14, 05:36 AM

As paranoid as Girard was, you don't see him putting in some kind of self-destruct sequence? I can certainly imagine a last resort like that, given that he was full of mistrust and believed Soon would be after his gate.

I mean, if you were to make a spell-trigger that blows everything up and you were him, what would you trigger on? Me, I think I would set a spell trigger to go off if all of my family was already dead and some of Soon's paladins were in range. One of those things has already happened and given the Order's dire straits, the paladins might very well be on their way over. They've been keeping in regular contact, after all.

We know that Girard is capable of an explosive spell, just like the one that comedically blew up when the Order approached the site of the false coordinates. Since that was a funnier comic, the rules of comedy applied to it, meaning that no one was killed or maimed by what appeared to be a very powerful blast. It's a rare comic that can pull it off: the last time a gate blew up, a castle was wrecked, Miko got blown in half, and O-Chul landed well beyond the city limits, falling at least as far as Roy did when he died, and yet he was perfectly alive and well, if still frozen in place and subject to a bizarre tea party with the MitD. Two dramatic events (the castle and Miko) and a funny one (O-Chul) from the same explosion, as if two different sets of rules applied (drama/realism and comedy).

I don't imagine the same will be true if Girard's gate blows up, even if the same magic to create the explosion is used. It won't be so funny this time, probably (relative to the explosion in the middle of the desert, not Soon's gate).