A Bard! Not super optimizing

[Regal Kain]

Ok so, here's the basic rundown, this is a backup character for when my Evil, Wispling Beguiler inevitably dies horribly. (Through his own stupidity probably.) I wanted to play a Bard, mostly cause I haven't played one before and they appear to be an incredibly interesting and fun class.

Our party lacks a proper caster of any kind, but, generally our DM is good about it, and so is our group about not trying to break the game with casters, so I decided to play an off-caster type (Hence Beguiler and bard) to give the party some minor "buff" spells without getting into the realm of silliness that Wizard/Clerics do. Though I'd imagine if done right, Bards aren't much better.

Our rolling system is 4d6 drop the lowest, we do 3 sets of stats, and choose one column, we're allowed to swap any two stats (Within that column.) So here are the stat blocks I have.

Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha
7 14 13 12 11 17
14 10 12 15 14 15
14 12 13 10 15 15

We're a level 7 party currently, I generally check things through him first, but he says anything I have access to, is a go he's fine with that, between us all (8 people in one house) we have access to most of the books, just no dragon magazines, though if we can find the source online and all agree on it, we're fine with it.

We don't use, and try not to allow Flaws for Feats, mostly because it tends to break things. We are allowed to buy away LA (So with an LA1 race I'd be Level 6 and 3K away from Level 7, so on.)

The other thing to note, we are a primarily evil party, and it is a monster/non standard campaign, so base humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes, halflings etc are a no-go. He said something like Human with the Dark Template is fine. It is also a Nautical campaign, alot of it takes place on boats, in boats, or the ocean, or small islands etc. Or in port-towns. There's not alot of overland travels, if any.

The party currently has a medium sized goblin army (300-500) at it's disposal, as well as an island we use to stage attacks etc, my Beguiler has an extremely high int and good Cha/Diplo, so we've been lucky thus far, and I wanted to keep with a character that is fairly smart, and can use words instead of weapons if possible.

All that being spewed about, I'm not looking for perfect optimization, I realize that might seem silly to some, I'm mostly just looking for fun, and interesting concepts that go with what I have here so far. Any input is appreciated, sorry if I've forgotten any details you need to know, and thank you in advance for the help. ^_^

[sambouchah]

I tend to play quite a few bards(at least four so far) and I have yet to play a disarm/sword breaker bard. Use a whip and improved disarm to take away a weapon if they get too close. I usually go with singing so I can have a sword drawn just in case. A mandolin also works nicely

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, a bit of judicious tweaking for Inspire Courage and DFI can go a long way, if you have a small army of disposable minions on hand. Complete Adventurer has a section on Masterwork Instruments that give bonuses to various things. Little minions with something like a +4 to attack, damage, and +4d6 Sonic damage on every swing are far more dangerous.

You don't have to go all out, just pick up a couple of things like the feat Song of the Heart. You can even go Dragonblooded of a chromatic dragon for the 'evil race' vibe the campaign requires, which makes it easier to get Dragonfire Inspiration, then Draconic Heretage for a dragon with the Sonic damage breath weapon.

As far as inspiration for an evil Bard... check my sig for the 'joker bard'. While the concept is for an NPC BBEG, you can use some of the concepts for your background and play style.

[Regal Kain]

Wow! I read through a fair bit of that actually Shneekey, I stopped two pages in when I realized no one was really paying attention to the concept and point of the character. I really like the idea.

I may actually go and do something along those lines, we tend to have a few "houserules" in because we're all good at no meta-knowledge and decent at RP, bluff/diplomacy, CAN work onPCs, so long as you can outtalk them, we don't just do "by the roll" gameplay, because that gets boring. Generally you have to learn to lie quickly and think on your feet, myself and Grimm (The guy who DMs when I don't generally.) will say you've failed a bluff check because what you were trying to say made **** all for sense, or you stopped and started stammering and bumbling about for 5 minutes.

This encourages our players to actually think as their characters would, and suck them in character. You'd be suprised at how fast some intelligent people can think when challenged to. ^_^

As for the Joker Bard, I think I may do that actually. I'll probably go with Dark Human, since I won't be far behind the party, that gives me Hide in Plain Sight, and some decent bonuses to hide and what not. I must say, once again the concept is absolutely stunning, I don't really care what some power-gaming/optimizers might say about it's validity, well done Sir.

I'll probably post again when I have a better idea of how I want to run this, wondering though is it worth a Str of 7 to have a Cha of 17? Or would you think Str14 Cha/15 is better? The Str 7 makes me worry, but a high Cha is especially good. I could always trade Str and Con, but that makes me pretty damn squishy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wow! I read through a fair bit of that actually Shneekey, I stopped two pages in when I realized no one was really paying attention to the concept and point of the character. I really like the idea.

I may actually go and do something along those lines, we tend to have a few "houserules" in because we're all good at no meta-knowledge and decent at RP, bluff/diplomacy, CAN work onPCs, so long as you can outtalk them, we don't just do "by the roll" gameplay, because that gets boring. Generally you have to learn to lie quickly and think on your feet, myself and Grimm (The guy who DMs when I don't generally.) will say you've failed a bluff check because what you were trying to say made **** all for sense, or you stopped and started stammering and bumbling about for 5 minutes.

This encourages our players to actually think as their characters would, and suck them in character. You'd be suprised at how fast some intelligent people can think when challenged to. ^_^

As for the Joker Bard, I think I may do that actually. I'll probably go with Dark Human, since I won't be far behind the party, that gives me Hide in Plain Sight, and some decent bonuses to hide and what not. I must say, once again the concept is absolutely stunning, I don't really care what some power-gaming/optimizers might say about it's validity, well done Sir.

I'll probably post again when I have a better idea of how I want to run this, wondering though is it worth a Str of 7 to have a Cha of 17? Or would you think Str14 Cha/15 is better? The Str 7 makes me worry, but a high Cha is especially good. I could always trade Str and Con, but that makes me pretty damn squishy.

Since you aren't likely to be a 'heavy hitter', Str is pretty much a dump stat, so yes, the Str7/Cha17 is awesome. Because more Charisma means more bluffing and more 'spending five minutes to turn Harvey Dent into Two-Face'. Plus you're probably going to want several spells with saving throws, and Charisma determines your DC's.

Also, if you go Changeling, you can really go 'man of a thousand faces', and there's a substitution level you can pick up for Rogue which trades off his 1d6 sneak attack for the ability to take 10 on social skills which would be quite handy.

[Regal Kain]

As of right now I'm looking through Complete Adventurer, I'm curious as to how some of this might work with DFI (Dragonfire Inspiration)

For instance, "When a bard uses a mandolin to inspire courage, the morale bonus on attack rolls increases by 1, but the morale bonus on weapon damage rolls and on saves against charm and fear is reduced by 1."

As per how DFI sounds, this means I don't add, or alter the amount of extra dice rolled. "Each ally so inspired loses, the standard morale bonus on weapon attack rolls and damage rolls. Instead, he deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage with his weapons for every point of morale bonus that your inspire courage ability would normally add to the attack roll."

This is where I get confused in dealing with D&D, because based on a person's interpretation this could mean one of two things, a Mandolin increases attack rolls by 1, even though it lowers the bonus on damage rolls and saves by 1, as such by DFI, this means it adds an extra d6.

Logistically speaking, or again based on grammatical interpretation, this could mean that because it lowers the damage roll (Also stated in DFI) but raises the attack roll, there is no net gain or loss, how is this ruled on generally? O_o


In othernews, Feats so far look as such- DragonTouched, Dragon Heritage (Howling Dragon, seemed to work well with the Joker theme to be honest, and it's quite evil.) Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart.

Stats are Str7 Dex12 Con13 Int14 Wis11 Cha17(+1Lvl4 18 )

Seems to look just fine to me, I'm mostly looking at gear and the like now, but wanted a more experienced person at interpretating WotC garble to weigh in so I don't make a mistake and do something wrong, and the like. Thanks in advance. ^_^

Edit: I saw the changeling bit, I was tempted to, as for the Rogue thing. I generally try to avoid 1level dips if possible, since it feels very min-maxey to me, though I might look into it again dunno I'll poke around a bit more.

Edit2: Reading through it, it would appear I don't lose the 1d6 SAD, but lose trap-finding instead, or is that optional? It's actually really tempting, more for the fact I get 10+intmod in skills as a Changeling rogue. Though I'm wondering if it's worth giving up the extra feat. More for the fact I like the idea and concept of DFI, though I can still get it, I think I'd lose Song of the Heart.

[Darrin]

Logistically speaking, or again based on grammatical interpretation, this could mean that because it lowers the damage roll (Also stated in DFI) but raises the attack roll, there is no net gain or loss, how is this ruled on generally?

When DFI converts to damage, all it references is your attack bonus. The damage bonus is ignored. So yes, using a mandolin with DFI should give you +1d6 damage.

[Regal Kain]

Thank you very much Darrin! My apologies for my confusion on the subject. :: Goes about looking at instruments and what might be amusing.::

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thank you very much Darrin! My apologies for my confusion on the subject. :: Goes about looking at instruments and what might be amusing.::

Don't overlook the one which increases the range of your Bardic Music effectiveness to 'miles'. Inspire all 500 of your minions at once!

[Fates]

You might want to consider a (greater) Collar of Umbral Metamorphasis from Tome of Magic as opposed to the dark template. It basically gives you the dark template all on its own, at a pretty affordable price (the regular collar gives it for 10 minutes/day, which is usually enough. If you want it for longer, the greater version is permanent). It might be good to start out with 3rd-level spells, after all. (Glibness is probably the most broken spell in the bard's list)

[Regal Kain]

Sadly 7th level WBL, is only 19,000 the Greater Collar is 22,000 for the permanent effect. Otherwise it'd be a good and viable choice, though the 10K variant isn't bad I'll see what my funds look like after other things.

Taking Dark Template is also a way to be a more "monstrous" variant of a human, to fall into the monster campaign styling we're in.

[Regal Kain]

Ok so, my Grimm (My DM) and I sat down, went over in-depth flaws, and traits etc, since we'll be starting an Epic Campaign soon, we wanted to see if they should be allowed, we said sure it didn't seem THAT bad, so long as the player has 1 Flaw that is combat related (Such as Non-combatant, Shaky, Murky-Eyed etc) Even if they only have 1 Flaw, that flaw has to be combat related. That said, I've been poking around making my bard, and decided to go with a more amusing, but quite a bit less powerful bard builder.

As I was talking to him I brought up some of the interesting instruments, and the Alphorn, then brought up the idea of a Goliath with Monkey grip, using an Alphorn, that was made of adamantine as a great club as he was playing it. It brought an amusing mental image to mind and he said I could use it as a weapon (With Greatclub damage) if I took an Exotic Prof for it. And so,

Without further ado.
The Stats, Traits, Flaws and Feats.


Goliath Bard6
Str-18
Dex-12 (14-2Racial)
Con-14 (12+2Racial)
Int- 16(15+1Lvl4)
Wis-10
Cha-17 (15+2Item)

Traits- Quick- +10 Foot Movespeed, -1HP per level.
Flaws- Shaky- You take a –2 penalty on all ranged attack rolls.
Murky-Eyed- In combat, every time you attack an opponent that
has concealment, roll your miss chance twice. If either or both
results indicate that you miss, your attack fails.


Feats-Exotic Weapon Profiency Alphorn
Dragon Touched (Murky-Eyed)
Draconic Heritage-Howling Dragon (Shaky)
Lvl3-Dragonfire Inspiration
Lvl6-Lingering Song
Lost Suggestion in place of Song of the Heart
The Gear

WBL states I get 19,000, my DM said that if I was going to use the Alphorn it had to be made of something pretty sturdy, and since this is a character more for flavor then pure prowess in battle...
+1 Deep Crystal Alphorn w/ Crystal of Return(Lesser)-4,100GP
+1 Mithral Chain Shirt-2,100
Badge of Valor- 1,200
Ring of Sustenance-2,000
Cloak of Charisma-4,000
Finned Gauntlets-3,500
Heward's Handy Haversack-2,000
Personal List of Mundane Items-100
Total-19,000
The list of mundane items is something I wrote up sometime ago for my 3.5 D&D characters, it includes some food, waterskins, flint and steel, parchment, ink, a sledge, pitons, a 10-foot ladder, a 10-foot pole, 2X spell component pouches, etc. Total cost is just under 100GP, and it includes a 55GP Masterwork Toolkit, of the player's choice. These items are stored in the HHH.



I don't think it's bad by any means, and it's definately not super-optimized, which is all he asked me to avoid, was an overly crunchy optimized character, because our other two players aren't "new" to D&D, but they aren't optimizers by any means. I figured this would be a good and solid character to buff their outputs, and still be able to do damage if I needed to.

I do have another question though, I'm poking about spells and the like. I came across Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium) and Harmony (Player's Guide to Faerun) Do these two stack? Or is one an alternate variant of the other? Because they seem to do the exact same thing.

Edit: My apologies about double-posting, it's early, I wasn't paying attention, sorry again! ;o;

[Vaz]

Don't overlook the one which increases the range of your Bardic Music effectiveness to 'miles'. Inspire all 500 of your minions at once!

Ha. And I just made a DFI Bard with 15d6 Sonic Damage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ha. And I just made a DFI Bard with 15d6 Sonic Damage.

Yea, he doesn't have access to the exalted feat required to pull that trick off, however an Alphorn with something like +15d6, plus War Chanter for Song of Legion can get exceedingly nasty.

I had a campaign where a bard had raised a peasant army that soundly trounced professional militaries that way... Song of Legion gave all the 1 HD peasants a few extra hit points, probably tripling their HP total, but more importantly, gave them a BAB equal to his HD... then +15 to attack and damage on top of that, all the peasants were sporting something like +40ish attack bonuses, and enough damage to insta-gib even level 10 paladins in one shot!

So of course the party was called on to deal with the problem. Because that's what you do when you can't deal with a problem, you get an unlikely band of homicidal hobos to deal with it for you...

[Gwendol]

Yeah, it sounds like War Chanter could be the PrC for you!

[Gwendol]

Also, I'd drop lingering song for melodic casting, and try to pick up versatile spellcaster ASAP.

What spells are you looking at?

[Regal Kain]

War Chanter does look awesome! Inspire Legion seems to only work out to 60 feet, and isn't effected by your instrument, as such can't be effected by Alphorn, if I'm reading that right, that is. As another note, War Chanter also requires 2 feats I don't have, though I could drop things to get them I guess. I'd rather avoid it, especially with the limitation I'm reading into Inspire Legion.

As far going for a caster PrC, I'm trying to avoid going full caster, mostly because when I play casters I lean alot more heavily towards crunch over fluff. That said, my current spell list is as follows.

Level-0Spells Known:
Prestidigitation
Detect Magic
Dancing Lights
Mage Hand
Mending
Resistance

Level-1Spells Known:
Harmony/Inspiriational Boost (They do indeed seem to be the same spell, so in light of not going super optimizing assuming they are one in the same and cannot stack.)
Unseen Servant
Undersong
Tasha's Hideous Laughter

Level-2Spells Known:
Cure Moderate Wounds
Blur
Sound Burst

And again, I'm not trying to super-optimize myself, or go full OP or anything like that. it's rare we run a campaign where we encourage, or ask our players to know what they are doing to the level of detail that is often found in these forums. It's more for funzies.

[Gwendol]

War Chanter is a suggestion, if it doesn't fit it doesn't fit. :smallsmile: Inspire legion is quite a way down the road though, you should probably look at what comes before to see it it fits.

I recommend songbird at level 0, and possibly summon instrument (for coolness)

Harmony is indeed renamed inspirational boost (and given swift casting).

Spells I recommend instead of some of those you have picked would be:

level 1: grease, charm person (c'mon, you know you want it!)
level 2: glitterdust (definitely instead of the underwhelming sound burst), alter self (very useful spell for a variety of reasons)

I see you have CMW listed. Have you considered the Healing Hymn ACF?

Other standard bard suggestions are Bardick Knack instead of bardic lore, and the skill trick collector of stories.

[Gwendol]

Oh, and if still considering the War Chanter, you might want to consider a level of cleric with the war domain, as they get weapon focus as a bonus feat.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

War Chanter does look awesome! Inspire Legion seems to only work out to 60 feet, and isn't effected by your instrument, as such can't be effected by Alphorn, if I'm reading that right, that is. As another note, War Chanter also requires 2 feats I don't have, though I could drop things to get them I guess. I'd rather avoid it, especially with the limitation I'm reading into Inspire Legion.Really? I see nothing in Inspire Legion which states 'this isn't affected by your instrument'. So your Alphorn should increase the 60' to 'miles'. However, it's up to you and your GM. I was describing an NPC BBEG, not necessarily a PC, so YMMV.

You do have a valid point on the two throwaway feats.


As far going for a caster PrC, I'm trying to avoid going full caster, mostly because when I play casters I lean alot more heavily towards crunch over fluff. That said, my current spell list is as follows.

Level-0Spells Known:
Prestidigitation
Detect Magic
Dancing Lights
Mage Hand
Mending
Resistance

Level-1Spells Known:
Harmony/Inspiriational Boost (They do indeed seem to be the same spell, so in light of not going super optimizing assuming they are one in the same and cannot stack.)
Unseen Servant
Undersong
Tasha's Hideous LaughterThese are all good spells. I might switch out Undersong for Grease, but that would be a personal choice.


Level-2Spells Known:
Cure Moderate Wounds
Blur
Sound BurstYou aren't a healer, you shouldn't be learning Cure Moderate Wounds. Wand it if you must, but never learn it as a Bard.

Blur is fail when Mirror Image is the same level.

You may wish to consider Misdirection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm) it's surprisingly lulzworthy. Failing that, Minor Image has all kinds of uses if you are clever, Glitterdust is a staple spell for a reason, Blindness/Deafness is always a hoot, and Alter Self is... well... Alter Self.

[Regal Kain]

Really? I see nothing in Inspire Legion which states 'this isn't affected by your instrument'. So your Alphorn should increase the 60' to 'miles'. However, it's up to you and your GM. I was describing an NPC BBEG, not necessarily a PC, so YMMV.

This is my perception of reading it, which is why it might be wrong. Alphorn states under Bardic Music that it does work for Inspire Courage,Greatness etc. Otherwise I'd say it wouldn'tbecause. As per War Chanter- The class itself requires X ranks in Perform Sing/Oratory. The last paragraph under Inspire Legion states "When the war chanter begins singing".

I took it at the literal meaning of they have to sing, if I'm mistake awesome! I may swap some feats around to get into War Chanter, cause that'd be pretty darn awesome to be honest. :)


These are all good spells. I might switch out Undersong for Grease, but that would be a personal choice.

I have no ranks in Concentration! ^_^ That might explain why I have Undersong in it's place, I did switch out Unseen Servant (Though I was loathe to) for Grease, as the more I thought about it, I could come up with better applications for Grease in our setting.


You aren't a healer, you shouldn't be learning Cure Moderate Wounds. Wand it if you must, but never learn it as a Bard.

I thought about that, you are right, I dropped it in light of Glitterdust. ^_^
The only reason I hadn't previous grabbed Glitterdust, was because of good use of lots of flour. And it being a campaign where you are always at sea, it's not often flour won't stick to a person. Though the blind could definately come in handy, which is something flour can't do. ^_^


Blur is fail when Mirror Image is the same level.

Blur can be used on another person, MirrorImage, cannot be used on another person. That's the reason behind using it, I don't plan to always be the center of attention, or the front-liner afterall.


You may wish to consider Misdirection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm) it's surprisingly lulzworthy. Failing that, Minor Image has all kinds of uses if you are clever, Glitterdust is a staple spell for a reason, Blindness/Deafness is always a hoot, and Alter Self is... well... Alter Self.

The main reason I didn't go with Misdirection. Is because most fights and most of the campaign takes place on Sea, so we're on the same ship/small area for months at a time, it generally negates (At least how I'm reading intot he spell.) the use for Misdirection per casting.

I had passed over Minor Image, I think because I read it as mirror image or something along those lines, having re-read it, I swapped Sound Burst out for it, because at my levle, I'm pretty sure I can minor image another ship...or two, might make for interesting situations. ^_^

@Gwendol-

Oh, and if still considering the War Chanter, you might want to consider a level of cleric with the war domain, as they get weapon focus as a bonus feat.
I'm reluctant to do this, only because I am trying to avoid 1 level dips into various things, and that's because of my (admittedly foolish) notion as a player that 1 level dips are there to optimize and power-game. Though I may talk to my DM about this and see what his opinion is. :)


I see you have CMW listed. Have you considered the Healing Hymn ACF?

I dropped CMW in light of suggestions from yourself and Shneekey, and we don't have a dedicated healer past that, the campaign is currently a more or less, low-magic (None of us are dedicated casters, I'm the only partial-caster) campaign, part of the reason I chose Bard instead of something like Wizard/Sorc.


I recommend songbird at level 0, and possibly summon instrument (for coolness)
I dropped Resistance for Songbird, I can think of a few applications it might come in handy actually, especially since I am using the Alphorn. While Summon Instrument is pretty cool, (My first immediate thought was summoning fiddles, or drums for a bunch of Goblins. I giggled.) It sadly only plays for me, and if I don't have my Alphorn, and it's not within 30 feet of me, I'm probably in pretty dire straights already. Though that might be more reason to be able to summon an instrument! ^_^

Thank you both for the suggestions, definately helped get my spelllist to a better place! ^_^

I guess it should be noted, my current DM, and myself when I DM, we try to balance out encounters to the party, since our party has no heavy-casters, as DMs we rarely throw heavy casters at the party, that's why I am trying to avoid a too-powerful Caster, because then the DM has free reign to throw one at us, and my other party members may not be apt to handle that.

Edit: Quote tags hate me...haaaaate me. Took 4 edits to get them to show up right e_e;

[Gwendol]

No ranks in concentration - that's what Melodic Casting is for: you roll performance instead of Concentration, and you can cast spells while maintaining bardic songs. You want Melodic Casting! And you don't want to spend a precious spell slot on undersong.

[Regal Kain]

No ranks in concentration - that's what Melodic Casting is for: you roll performance instead of Concentration, and you can cast spells while maintaining bardic songs. You want Melodic Casting! And you don't want to spend a precious spell slot on undersong.

After reading through I can see that you are indeed quite right, my mistake came from mis-reading Bard, as it would seem I don't need concentration checks to keep Inspire Courage up (Or so the PHB fails to mention it needing it.).

Now my bigger worry is, how do I go about aquiring Melodic Casting? I'd have to drop Lingering Song to get it, and while usefull, with my current party Lingering Song is more useful. (Party full of un-optimized martial people.)

Albeit I could drop Song of the Heart, but that not only adds to the attack/damage rolls of myself and my allies, it also adds in an extra D6 of Sonic damage at present. I will probably still drop Undersong and just pray I don't need concentration for now, and get Melodic Casting at the next available feat.

I might keep it for now, and at level 8, swap Undersong for something more usefull, this way it's only an effective 1-level of having to worry seriously about a Con check. That might work, thoughts?

[Juntao112]

I'd drop Lingering Song before Song of the Heart.

[Darrin]

Now my bigger worry is, how do I go about aquiring Melodic Casting? I'd have to drop Lingering Song to get it, and while usefull, with my current party Lingering Song is more useful. (Party full of un-optimized martial people.)

Albeit I could drop Song of the Heart, but that not only adds to the attack/damage rolls of myself and my allies, it also adds in an extra D6 of Sonic damage at present. I will probably still drop Undersong and just pray I don't need concentration for now, and get Melodic Casting at the next available feat.

Do you have access to Eberron? In ECS, you can swap some of your bardic music abilities for feats. For example, at Bard 6 you can swap suggestion for Song of the Heart.

[Regal Kain]

Do you have access to Eberron? In ECS, you can swap some of your bardic music abilities for feats. For example, at Bard 6 you can swap suggestion for Song of the Heart.

That's how I have 2 Feats at level 6 as a Bard ^_^

[Gwendol]

Melodic casting is more practical than lingering song.

[Socratov]

You might want to consider a (greater) Collar of Umbral Metamorphasis from Tome of Magic as opposed to the dark template. It basically gives you the dark template all on its own, at a pretty affordable price (the regular collar gives it for 10 minutes/day, which is usually enough. If you want it for longer, the greater version is permanent). It might be good to start out with 3rd-level spells, after all. (Glibness is probably the most broken spell in the bard's list)
glibness isn't the most broken, that's something like silent image (or any good illusion effect)

Melodic casting is more practical than lingering song.
if you only cast spells, yes (good for going into SC), however, lingering song provides the opportunity to use another song (DFI+IC) and maybe use weapons (indiana jones anyone?). It's a fact often overlooked.

Other nice options are the Bardic knack ACF and per ebberron and completes trading away songs for feats. Another tip is to look at Complete scoundrel for the skilltricks, they sometimes are quite worth the 2 skillpoints and can provide that edge you are looking for.

To use an alphorn you don't need Ex. weap. prof. you just need the skillranks in Perform(Windinstrument) to meet the song prerequisites. and don't forget to make the alphorn masterwork for more to hit bonus

[Gwendol]

Only for fights lasting more than five rounds. I fully agree that lingering song is a good feat, and that if you have room for it by all means take it. And maybe for the alphorn playing bard it works well enough, but using a weapon that continue singing in your stead is probably better than the feat (and the enchantment can surely be re-fluffed for the alphorn). Not having to spend skillpoints in concentration, and yet be almost certain to never get disrupted is great, and be able to perform and cast spells at the same time is fantastic.

[Regal Kain]

if you only cast spells, yes (good for going into SC), however, lingering song provides the opportunity to use another song (DFI+IC) and maybe use weapons (indiana jones anyone?). It's a fact often overlooked.
This is perhaps the biggest reason I won't take Melodic Casting over Lingering Song (Though I still want Melodic Casting)




To use an alphorn you don't need Ex. weap. prof. you just need the skillranks in Perform(Windinstrument) to meet the song prerequisites. and don't forget to make the alphorn masterwork for more to hit bonus

I'm using an Alphorn that is made of Deep Crystal, as a Greatclub of the Large Size, the only reason my DM asked me to take an exotic for it, is because I have all intentions of using, and treating it, as if it's a greatclub that I can also trumpet away on to inspire allies. ^_^


Only for fights lasting more than five rounds. I fully agree that lingering song is a good feat, and that if you have room for it by all means take it. And maybe for the alphorn playing bard it works well enough, but using a weapon that continue singing in your stead is probably better than the feat (and the enchantment can surely be re-fluffed for the alphorn). Not having to spend skillpoints in concentration, and yet be almost certain to never get disrupted is great, and be able to perform and cast spells at the same time is fantastic.
While I completely agree with most of what you say, I won't be casting that heavily into combat, had I gone for a different race (Say the Changeling as I was going to originally, or the Dark Human) I would have taken Melodic Casting over Lingering Song, this character probably won't be a heavy caster, he'll mostly be thumping people with his big horn.

Edit: Tee-hee fixing typoes. :: Cries cause he can't spell right. ::