Optimizing a Cha synergy-styled Divine Crusader of Shaundakul.

[Daebu]

Hey, I'm looking for some contributions to my build. I had been looking to try and use a Crusader/Divine Crusader/RKV for some time now. I was able to get "double 9's" (although realistically very few spells and only one level 9 maneuver.)

My DM has ruled that:

1)RKV can be used for any god so long as the maneuvers chosen and style weren't antithetical to the god in question.

2) I can add spells to the Divine Crusader, but only if the PrC in question specifically states that it adds a domain AND the spells directly to the base class list (of a non cleric). To my knowledge only Ordained Champion and Windwalker fit the bill. Both PrC's wind up sacrificing the domain ability but grant the spells. I figured that with Windwalker granting two domains worth of spells, and not losing casting at level1 that it was the stronger option for dipping. This locks me into using Shaundakul as a god.



I originally had Paladin4/Crusader3/DC1/RKV7/Windwalker1/RKV+3/Crusader+1, however this had three notable problems. Firstly it would have required DM fiat to allow me to use a (CG) Paladin with the (CN) DC of Shaundakul. Secondly there's always the possibility of losing your paladin powers. Thirdly Divine Grace does not stack with the Crusader's Indomitable Soul.

So I took a small BAB hit, and fixed all three problems with:

Cloistered Cleric1/Marshal1/Hexblade2/Crusader3/DC1/RKV7/Windwalker1/RKV+3/Crusader+1. Cha>Con>Str>Int>Dex>Wis. 17 BAB, 9th's. Human. Strong "free will" wanderlust based flavour, which is great for an adventurer. Strong diplomacy skill list.

The CC dip would trade its 3 domains for devotion feats: knowledge, travel, and air or protection. Marshall could pick up one of a few different auras. Hexblade would grant Cha to all saves on spells and SLA's. The Divine Crusader would pick up the Trade domain, and Windwalker would add the spells from Air and Travel to the list. (Sadly can't switch those around to get Trade's freedom of movement.)

I was considering taking the Draconic template (if buyoff is allowed.) This would grant +2 to my 3 main stats and would open up the possibility of also adding another aura with a Feat. Leadership is another possibility, as this character would have very high Cha and 2 or 3 auras to share with a cohort.

Any thoughts? Have I covered all my bases? What could I change to nab some goodies or stronger thematic flavour? Is my build legal? What Marshall aura should I pick? etc etc.

Thanks for taking the time to read. :)

[Psyren]

1) Am I missing something? Trade is... pretty bad, and I don't see Freedom of Movement anywhere on the domain's list or its granted power. why not make your domain be Travel, Portal, or Air instead? Those are all Shaundakul domains with much better spells. You'll be locked into one list (at least, unless you get other domains somehow, e.g. with Contemplative) so it may as well be a list you can find some use in every day.

2) If it's a CG Paladin you want to add to your build, you can ask your DM if you can use Paladin of Freedom. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) Point out to your DM that there are several FR deities that have paladin orders despite being CG (e.g. Sune and Corellon), and that their paladins would most likely have been the CG kind if UA was core material.

3) What book is Windwalker from?

[DownwardSpiral]

Cloistered Cleric1/Marshal1/Hexblade2/Crusader3/DC1/RKV7/Windwalker1/RKV+3/Crusader+1. Cha>Con>Str>Int>Dex>Wis. 17 BAB, 9th's.

)

So just at a quick glance, you dont qualify for DC1 when you said you wanted it. DC needs BaB +7, and I know cleric and marshall isnt full bab.

Also, windwalker is from faith's and patheon, a 3.0 book. Might not be kosher depending on your dm.

[Daebu]

1) Am I missing something? Trade is... pretty bad, and I don't see Freedom of Movement anywhere on the domain's list or its granted power. why not make your domain be Travel, Portal, or Air instead? Those are all Shaundakul domains with much better spells. You'll be locked into one list (at least, unless you get other domains somehow, e.g. with Contemplative) so it may as well be a list you can find some use in every day.

2) If it's a CG Paladin you want to add to your build, you can ask your DM if you can use Paladin of Freedom. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) Point out to your DM that there are several FR deities that have paladin orders despite being CG (e.g. Sune and Corellon), and that their paladins would most likely have been the CG kind if UA was core material.

3) What book is Windwalker from?

Replying in order:

1) I can see how you'd be confused if you don't have access to the book. Windwalker adds Travel and Air domains, and the spells directly to the spell list of a non cleric. It would be redundant to then take Travel or Air as my DC domain. Freedom of movement is Travel's domain power for X rounds per day. I was stating that I wanted to switch which domain I took as a DC to the Travel domain to take advantage of this, but I can't. Since Windwalker does not grant a choice of which domains to take as bonus domains, I would wind up with the Travel domain twice. Same problem with the Air domain.

This locking-in of Travel and Air is also why I took the Trade domain with DC, because Portal and Travel have a few redundant spells, something that is pretty rough on a character with an effective spell list of only 3spells/level to begin with. That only leaves me with Chaos, Protection and Trade to choose from.

Edit: And I can't solve this with Contemplative due to my DM's interpretation of Divine Crusader. That was in my first post. :)


2) You have misunderstood my meaning. Taking a CG Paladin would not work. A Divine Crusader MUST be the same alignment as his patron god. This would be CN in this case. A CG Paladin would fall if he became CN. The DM Fiat I was referring to was the fact that I would need the DM to allow me to be a CG DC of Shaundakul. Effectively allowing me to ignore that alignment requirement.

3) Faiths and Pantheons.

[Daebu]

So just at a quick glance, you dont qualify for DC1 when you said you wanted it. DC needs BaB +7, and I know cleric and marshall isnt full bab.

Also, windwalker is from faith's and patheon, a 3.0 book. Might not be kosher depending on your dm.

Good catch! The book I could probably swing. The BAB requirement not so much, as I understand why it's there as a requirement. I'll see if I can keep my goodies with some juggling.

Edit: It appears I got a bit lucky. I think my putting the last level of Crusader at the end of the build was for the purpose of taking advantage of "switching" a low level maneuver for a higher one. Effectively taking my Init levels at higher levels to get more higher level maneuvers. However, I can easily shuffle to put that Crus level before Divine Crusader, and take a level 9 maneuver with my last level of RKV instead. The net effect is losing a quality level 5 or 6 maneuver for a level 2 or 3 one instead.

And I can also move my first level of RKV to before Divine Crusader as well as it doesn't grant spellcasting, and thus I don't lose level 9 spells. It also has low enough requirements to not stress the build. The new progression would be:

Cloistered Cleric1/Marshall1/Hexblade2/Crusader4/RKV1/DC1/RKV+6/Windwalker1/RKV+3

Alternatively to one of the shuffles I could take something with full BAB instead of that Marshal level. I'd just be sad to lose the Aura and nice saves on an otherwise strong CHA-synergy character. On the other hand I'd recover a BAB...

Does the new build work? Or have I still missed something? Any suggestions for alternatives to Marshall? Any suggestions in general?

[Answerer]

The term "ruled" in your description is ambiguous: he is aware that this is very definitely a houserule, correct? I mean, he's free to do what he likes in his game and all, but Complete Divine quite explicitly explains how added Domains work for non-Clerics, and it's not nearly as restrictive as he's making it.

[Daebu]

The term "ruled" in your description is ambiguous: he is aware that this is very definitely a houserule, correct? I mean, he's free to do what he likes in his game and all, but Complete Divine quite explicitly explains how added Domains work for non-Clerics, and it's not nearly as restrictive as he's making it.

If I try that line he may just say "You're right, RAW in the Divine Crusader entry says you get 9 spells. Specific trumps general. That's it, no more." I assume he's trying to find the balance between the two. (In short, it's actually MORE restrictive than he's making it.)

Besides, Windwalker gives me access to TWO domains worth of spells with only a one level dip, thereby ensuring a decent spell list and I still get access to 9th level maneuvers. (I know with your interpretation I could cheese it slightly with Bloodlines to get higher IL, then take Sovereign Host to worship and convert a level or three of Crusader/RKV to Sovereign Speaker and get tasty domains while still getting a 9th level maneuver. However I'm ok working within this rule set.)

[Answerer]

An added Domain would be more specific than the general case of how Divine Crusaders cast spells, but whatever. I don't think it's a good ruling but I can see some merit to it.

[Daebu]

An added Domain would be more specific than the general case of how Divine Crusaders cast spells, but whatever. I don't think it's a good ruling but I can see some merit to it.

Sorry for the edit ninja, but I expanded a bit in the previous post. I just didn't get it in time. :smallredface:

Glad to see that you and my DM can agree to disagree, haha. :smallbiggrin: