What Tiers are Avatar D20 Projects Classes?

[Mcdt2]

A few years ago on these forums there was a massive project made to translate Avatar style bending into D&D. Recently, I started looking over it, and I'm curious as to what tiers each class is in. I get the feeling most of the benders are tier 3, with firebenders probably being just tier 4. I haven't looked over the Monk and Ranger fixes they made much, but I feel they are only tier 4 at best. I haven't even begun to touch the PrC's. What do you think?

[Larkas]

A link to the material would be fantastic to help you with that.

[Mephibosheth]

The goal was for the benders to be just a bit more powerful than warlocks. So, high tier 4, low tier 3, with the firebender being a little lower on the totem pole since all it can really do is deal damage. Of course, it also depends on which version you're talking about. The version 2 benders could be significantly more powerful if DMs aren't careful about what type of forms they allow the players to make up. But they're certainly not as powerful as wizards or clerics or druids, nor do they have as many win buttons to push.

Edit: The classes he's talking about are here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54063) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28763)

[Mcdt2]

Oh crap, thought I had linked to it. Guess not, sorry

[Twilightwyrm]

The goal was for the benders to be just a bit more powerful than warlocks. So, high tier 4, low tier 3, with the firebender being a little lower on the totem pole since all it can really do is deal damage. Of course, it also depends on which version you're talking about. The version 2 benders could be significantly more powerful if DMs aren't careful about what type of forms they allow the players to make up. But they're certainly not as powerful as wizards or clerics or druids, nor do they have as many win buttons to push.

Edit: The classes he's talking about are here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54063) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28763)

What is it with hate here for direct damage? I mean, especially in a setting where there aren't really any "Save-or-Die" or really any "Save-or-Lose" effects, damage is pretty much the manner of dealing with hostile opponents. All benders can, to a certain extant, alter terrain, fly, and make a number of other interesting effects, so what abilities are you comparing to those of the Firebender to place them at T4 in relation to the others?

[Silva Stormrage]

What is it with hate here for direct damage? I mean, especially in a setting where there aren't really any "Save-or-Die" or really any "Save-or-Lose" effects, damage is pretty much the manner of dealing with hostile opponents. All benders can, to a certain extant, alter terrain, fly, and make a number of other interesting effects, so what abilities are you comparing to those of the Firebender to place them at T4 in relation to the others?

To be fair he was referencing the tier system not usefulness. Barbarians deal a crap load of damage and are still tier 4, if Firebenders lack the versatility and problem solving capabilities as the others than they probably are lower tier and probably tier 4.

[Twilightwyrm]

To be fair he was referencing the tier system not usefulness. Barbarians deal a crap load of damage and are still tier 4, if Firebenders lack the versatility and problem solving capabilities as the others than they probably are lower tier and probably tier 4.

I suppose, but in a setting where many of the underlying assumptions of the Tier system cease to be relevant, (like this one) one would think the altered circumstances of the system would dictate what "tier" each class falls into. I admit, though, that I might have been hasty. If we are stacking these classes up against everyone else in the Tier system, I can see this a bit more(I would still argue where it falls in relation to the other benders, but would probably agree that they would all (with the possible exception of the Earth Bender) fall into T4), but really only because Fire Resistance is a much more common thing in normal D&D. If we are taking them on the merits of the system they are supposed to exist in, then I have problems with this analysis. (This would be similar to how I would judge, say, d20 modern classes, or d20 Star Wars classes within the Tier system, that is to say, based upon their relative capability within the system they exist in as opposed to in the normal D&D 3.5 universe).

[Alienist]

I looked at the Airbender, and no way in hell was it Tier 3.

Frankly, I rate the Warlock higher.

[Silva Stormrage]

I suppose, but in a setting where many of the underlying assumptions of the Tier system cease to be relevant, (like this one) one would think the altered circumstances of the system would dictate what "tier" each class falls into. I admit, though, that I might have been hasty. If we are stacking these classes up against everyone else in the Tier system, I can see this a bit more(I would still argue where it falls in relation to the other benders, but would probably agree that they would all (with the possible exception of the Earth Bender) fall into T4), but really only because Fire Resistance is a much more common thing in normal D&D. If we are taking them on the merits of the system they are supposed to exist in, then I have problems with this analysis. (This would be similar to how I would judge, say, d20 modern classes, or d20 Star Wars classes within the Tier system, that is to say, based upon their relative capability within the system they exist in as opposed to in the normal D&D 3.5 universe).

Fair point, notice how I didn't really add to the topic. I don't really think they can be selected to a "Tier" unless you try to put the airbending d20 classes in a standard 3.5 campaign. (Which is possible if a bit difficult).

[Mephibosheth]

So, I'll elaborate a little bit on the project's design methodology, hopefully clearing things up a bit. First, keep in mind that Avatar d20 came before the tier system for base classes became the lingua franca of the forums, so there was never a moment where anyone thought "what tier should we shoot for." The goal was to make a system balanced for two things.

First, we wanted non-benders to be representable with already-existing non-magical martial classes. So, ranger, monk, fighter, barbarian, and the like. It was only later that Avatar d20 variants of ranger and monk came about. I didn't really have a role in those classes and still am not sure how I feel about them.

Second, we wanted our bending classes to be able to hold their own in a conventional D&D world, but not be as powerful as full casting classes. We were definitely shooting for the middle of the pack in terms of power and versatility, but only in the vaguest of senses. Nothing as refined as the tier system.

So, the classes were designed with those two goals in mind. However, the first goal quickly became far more important than the second. This is true especially with the version 2 benders, where the decision to adhere to the canon of the show at the expense of parity with non-Avatar d20 D&D content. So balance within the Avatar d20 system became more important.

This had a limiting effect, especially on the airbender. As portrayed in the show, airbending is very defensive. It doesn't have any real direct damage-dealing abilities. Those abilities that can do damage are never used on people, just on structures. So an airbender's ability to end combats is very circumstantial; they have to fling enemies into walls or throw objects around or push people off cliffs. But the ethos of the class in the show limited the kinds of things we could make airbenders capable of performing. People thought of a ton of interesting and powerful airbender abilities, but they weren't a part of the canon of the show and so they weren't included. This same limitation is true, to some extent, of the other classes as well. Though the other classes lack the well-defined philosophical limitations of the airbender.

I hope that helps clarify where we were coming from. I'm happy to answer any other questions.

Mephibosheth