Why Overrun?

[Yora]

Why does this even exist? Disarm and Trip are obviously good and if you have fun with it and the DM lenient, Bull Rush and Sunder are also great entertainment. Grapple would be cool if it was done differently.
But why Overrun? Did anyone ever really want to use it, not even speaking of taking the Improved Overrun feat?

This option seems really pointless and I think the Wheel of Time d20 RPG doesn't even have it.

[Annos]

it's more flashy less stabby

[Jormengand]

I admit I can't even remember what it does, but the more options that the fighter and such have, the better.

[ArcturusV]

Overrun seems made for Mounted Combat. Quite a few mounts (That are actually intended as mounts and not just a random monster that you threw a saddle on) gets a Trample Attack which you can use during an Overrun. So you charge, lance, run them down, knock them prone and deal additional trample damage, etc.

Outside of mounted combat, it's not useful so much. If you don't want to dump cross class ranks in Tumble it can be a way to set up flanks easy enough for a Fighter or other high strength character. You get a prone and to set up a flank for the next guy behind you. But that's about it.

[KillianHawkeye]

Use it to get past enemies in a narrow hallway.

[IncoherentEssay]

It's a brute's tumble basically. Note that the AoO doesn't stop you from overrunning even if it connects and unless your opponent chooses to risk falling prone you get to go past automatically. You also only use up your standard action if your opponent tries to block you (amusingly enough this makes Imp. Overrun a nerf since it forces you to knock down the first foe you try to push past).
Overrun also needs to exist so an Ogre isn't stopped dead in it's tracks by a crippled commoner :smalltongue:. It's not so useful for PCs but kind of necessary to avoid such sillyness.

[Seharvepernfan]

Why does this even exist? Disarm and Trip are obviously good and if you have fun with it and the DM lenient, Bull Rush and Sunder are also great entertainment. Grapple would be cool if it was done differently.
But why Overrun? Did anyone ever really want to use it, not even speaking of taking the Improved Overrun feat?

This option seems really pointless and I think the Wheel of Time d20 RPG doesn't even have it.

It's for when you want to get past someone, but either don't have the time (or ability) to just kill them with an attack or trip them (maybe you're not holding a weapon that can make trips). EDIT: also if you can't tumble.

It differs from a bull rush in that it leaves the opponent prone rather than moving them backwards, and can be made as part of a charge towards someone else.

Honestly, they probably could have wrapped it into bullrush with little fuss, but eh.

[ericgrau]

It seems worse than a trip because you can make multiple trip attempts on a full attack, or with attacks of opportunity. But the mobility is the advantage, in case you want to be able to get to someone. And it has much easier pre-reqs than improved trip. Good for stupid monsters, mounts and animal companions.

[Cerlis]

Why does this even exist? Disarm and Trip are obviously good and if you have fun with it and the DM lenient, Bull Rush and Sunder are also great entertainment. Grapple would be cool if it was done differently.
But why Overrun? Did anyone ever really want to use it, not even speaking of taking the Improved Overrun feat?

This option seems really pointless and I think the Wheel of Time d20 RPG doesn't even have it.

because.....sometimes....you might want to force your way past someone?

The point of half the rules are to simulate stuff you can actually do. Its physically possible to try to blow past someone, so there is a rule for it.

Simple.

[Darrin]

Use it to get past enemies in a narrow hallway.

This. I actually had to make an overrun attempt just this last weekend, for exactly this reason. Wolf was blocking a 5' hallway, and only one of our frontline meatbags could get close enough to attack (the monk, unfortunately).

Of course, the entire party was small characters vs. medium wolf, so we ended up prone in a pile in the monk's square. Fortunately, I remembered you can attack from prone with a -4 penalty... which allowed me to fix the wolf problem.

[nedz]

There's a separate feat for Mounted Combat, called Trample IIRC.

Leaving someone prone can be useful but it's a rarely used option.

[Amphetryon]

This. I actually had to make an overrun attempt just this last weekend, for exactly this reason. Wolf was blocking a 5' hallway, and only one of our frontline meatbags could get close enough to attack (the monk, unfortunately).

Of course, the entire party was small characters vs. medium wolf, so we ended up prone in a pile in the monk's square. Fortunately, I remembered you can attack from prone with a -4 penalty... which allowed me to fix the wolf problem.

I've had a similar situation come up. Unfortunately, Overrun is usually a pretty niche, low-level ability, which makes the Improved Overrun Feat one of the less attractive Fighter-Feat options for most long-term campaigns.

[jedipilot24]

The argument can be made that Improved Overrun actually makes the Overrun manuever worse because the whole point of the Overrun manuever is to get past an enemy and Improved Overrun makes that much harder since the enemy can no longer dodge.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's a brute's tumble basically. Note that the AoO doesn't stop you from overrunning even if it connects and unless your opponent chooses to risk falling prone you get to go past automatically. You also only use up your standard action if your opponent tries to block you (amusingly enough this makes Imp. Overrun a nerf since it forces you to knock down the first foe you try to push past).
Overrun also needs to exist so an Ogre isn't stopped dead in it's tracks by a crippled commoner :smalltongue:. It's not so useful for PCs but kind of necessary to avoid such sillyness.

This.

DC 25 tumble (plus possible other modifiers) is actually super hard until higher levels without massive investment.

Overrun is basically trading hp for tactical movement. Seldom used, but nice as an option to have in your pocket.

[ericgrau]

The argument can be made that Improved Overrun actually makes the Overrun manuever worse because the whole point of the Overrun manuever is to get past an enemy and Improved Overrun makes that much harder since the enemy can no longer dodge.

Except "If you succeed in knocking your opponent prone, you can continue your movement as normal"

With a +4 and a melee build, you probably did.

Without improved overrun foes will choose to stop you if they think it's a good idea anyway, which usually but not always matches up to when it is a good idea.

[Snowbluff]

Without improved overrun foes will choose to stop you if they think it's a good idea anyway, which usually but not always matches up to when it is a good idea.

Why force yourself to make another check to get around them with overrun? It's awful. I spent 2 feats so that I have to make a check EVERY TIME I try to overrun? What if I fail the check? You are more likely to be successful getting around someone if there is a chance they won't bother stopping you. :smallannoyed:

[Greenish]

Except "If you succeed in knocking your opponent prone, you can continue your movement as normal"

With a +4 and a melee build, you probably did.Or maybe not. I remember trying to use it several times on a medium monstrous spider with a Jotunbrud melee character and failing every time. Of course, the bonus for having more than two legs counteracted Jotunbrud, so it could have gone either way.


Why was I trying to overrun a spider? I'd decided to use all the combat maneuvers just because. :smallcool:

[JellyPooga]

The argument can be made that Improved Overrun actually makes the Overrun manuever worse because the whole point of the Overrun manuever is to get past an enemy and Improved Overrun makes that much harder since the enemy can no longer dodge.

Is there a requirement that you must use the Feat though? I don't recall any ruling that you have to use a Feat if you have it, so you could elect to allow your foe the option to avoid your overrun. If they don't, then you still get your +4 to the opposed check, because that's under an "also" clause in the Feat description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedOverrun).

[Seharvepernfan]

Is there a requirement that you must use the Feat though? I don't recall any ruling that you have to use a Feat if you have it, so you could elect to allow your foe the option to avoid your overrun. If they don't, then you still get your +4 to the opposed check, because that's under an "also" clause in the Feat description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedOverrun).

This.
I always thought that you could let them avoid you, but they can't make that choice.

[ericgrau]

Or maybe not. I remember trying to use it several times on a medium monstrous spider with a Jotunbrud melee character and failing every time. Of course, the bonus for having more than two legs counteracted Jotunbrud, so it could have gone either way.


Why was I trying to overrun a spider? I'd decided to use all the combat maneuvers just because. :smallcool:
But that's why the spider would probably try to stop you anyway. A kobold OTOH, would not, and he has such a pitiful modifier that you would not want him to stop you.

Such a thing very rarely works to your advantage. Only when it's a close check and the foe guesses wrong on who has the advantage.

[jedipilot24]

This.
I always thought that you could let them avoid you, but they can't make that choice.

Well, the way I've always read that feat is that both sentences provide an active, 'always on' benefit--like Improved Initiative or the skill bonus feats. There are certain feats that do work only when you want them, like Power Attack, but not all feats are like that.

[AMX]

The description of Overrun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#overrun) says, explicitly, "if you have the Improved Overrun feat"

So by RAW, it's automatic - you don't get to choose if you use the feat or not, what matters is only if you have it.

Oh, and check this:
"Opponent Avoids? ... The overrun attempt doesn’t count against your actions this round."
Not only does Improved Overrun force you to make a check that may not be necessary - it also guarantees that you expend your Standard Action.

[JellyPooga]

By that argument the Run (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#run)Feat also prevents you from moving less than 5x your normal speed (or 4x your normal speed in heavy armour) when you run, because it says:

"when running, you move five times your normal speed"

No "can" or "may", just a flat statement of what happens when you run.

If the Overrun Feat stated that you "must" overrun or "may not" allow your target to avoid, you'd have some ground to stand on, I think, but the way it's written? No.

[Caex]

Previous posters have covered the main point pretty well (it's like tumble for high strength, low skill characters), but its advantages in mounted combat can be pretty significant. I'm currently running a campaign where a (dark) paladin is built around mounted combat and uses overrun whenever possible. He hits his opponent with his lance, then overruns them, then his mount tramples them, then he moves on. It's pretty lethal, and it does a good job of breaking up any formation my NPCs may be trying to get into.

[AMX]

By that argument the Run (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#run)Feat also prevents you from moving less than 5x your normal speed (or 4x your normal speed in heavy armour) when you run, because it says:

"when running, you move five times your normal speed"

No "can" or "may", just a flat statement of what happens when you run.

If the Overrun Feat stated that you "must" overrun or "may not" allow your target to avoid, you'd have some ground to stand on, I think, but the way it's written? No.

You don't even need to look at the Run feat - the Move action says "move your speed," not "up to your speed."

It's crappy editing, but such is RAW.

[brvheart]

I can see it useful for breaking a line or trying to get into a room with your heavy fighter. It also can be useful to set up a flank for the rogue.

[Togo]

Or to get to the spellcaster past screening mooks. It can be a decent move for the party tank, to simply go through the mooks to threaten the big cheese, and provide flanks for the rest of the party against the minions that are supposed to slow them down.

[Rhynn]

It's crappy editing, but such is RAW.

It seems a bit much to call perfectly normal and understandable language "crappy editing" just because it can be tortured to mean things it clearly doesn't. :smalleek:

FWIW, I've never seen anyone use overrun at my table, and we picked up 3.0 within 6 months of it coming out... no one's ever even had a trampling mounted build. Go figure. That maneuver might as well not exist for us. A bit odd, really.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I have also never seen an Overrun attempted by a PC. Until Knockback feat and Dungeoncrasher Fighter (and to a lesser extent, Shock Trooper) made bull rushing sexy, I never really saw any bull rushing either, aside from the rare times an enemy was right next to a steep pit or cliff or the like. So I thought adding a feat to make overrun better. Unfortunately...no player took it, no idea if it is actually useful or not.

Momentous Rush [Fighter]
Your muscles clench as you let our a ferocious roar, feet violently pushing off the ground as you plunge straight forward. No obstacle can halt you, as your mighty swing dazes your foe long enough to easily shoulder him to the ground. But your rampage has only begun, and toppling this meager domino merely gives you fuel to continue pushing past enemy lines.
Prerequisites: Strength 17, Power Attack, Improved Overrun*, size Large or larger (or Medium with Powerful Build)
Benefit: If you make an attack as part of a charge and transfer at least 1 point to damage using Power Attack, you get a free overrun attempt against the target if the attack hits. This attempt is unavoidable and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Further, you gain a bonus on the check equal to the amount you Power Attacked for, or twice this amount if you used a two-handed weapon or a natural attack that deals 1.5x your Strength modifier to damage. If you succeed, you can continue your linear charge, making overrun attempts against any new foe in your way. These additional attempts gain none of the benefits of the special overrun action on the initial target, and are subject to attacks of opportunity as normal. You can continue pushing forward until you reach your maximum charge distance or fail in an opposed overrun attempt.
Special: This feat can be taken without Improved Overrun. In this instance, in order for the feat to function the creature who takes it must serve as a mount, and its rider must have the Trample feat instead.

[nedz]

I don't think I've seen it used either. People either tumble or hack their way through, or Dim door at higher levels.

[Seharvepernfan]

I don't think I've seen it used either. People either tumble or hack their way through, or Dim door at higher levels.

It's because most people don't ever even think about it.